Ken's in Israel and I killed his tank

[Ken2001]

Hi Reefers...this is Ken Hyers' wife Vallyre. Ken is finishing up a two-week business trip to Israel & France...and there's been a little "mishap" with his 75gal 5-yr old tank...

Tank setup is 75 w/external u-tube overflow to a 20gal sump w/a rubbermaid bucket sitting next to it connected by a float switch in the sump (where I put the topoff water, about 2 gal / day) w/an older EV-150 skimmer powered by a mag9, with a mag7 serving as the return to a u-tube back into the tank. (I don't speak the lingo, so I hope I've described this so someone can understand).

Well, last night the sump started to overflow and the tank was draining. The Mag7 return appeared to have failed, the return tube was so overgrown with polyps that the siphon break was clogged, and nearly 10 gal of water had drained into the basement on top of the external MH ballast which is wired in the basement. That blew up.

So I had no idea what I was doing, and I simply put sump water back into the tank, got the level high enough so it was up to the fingers in the overflow box, made sure I moved the heater from the sump to the tank, got some powerheads going, and said oh well, I'll call someone in the morning.

This morning most of the fish are dead. A beautiful pink-tailed trigger, our mandarin, the yellow tang which we've had since 1999 (sob), the coral-banded shrimp, the arabian pseudochromis...I put them in a ziploc in the freezer. The lawnmower blenny (my fav) is laboring near an airstone, seemingly paralyzed. But breathing HARD.

The tank is mostly acros/montis with a bubbletip (the maroon clown is just holding on).

Jake, fellow Reefer, came over this morning after Ken called him from Tel Aviv and Jake helped assess the situation and get things stable. WOW! Jake, Thank you SOOOO much! I can't thank you enough for going out of your way to help us out!!!!! Woooo Dr. Jake!

Paramaters right now - specific gravity 1.024 measured with a refractometer (not the swing arm p.o.s.), Ph 7.9.

With Dr. Jake's housecall this am, there's now a sock full of carbon sitting in the tank and two airstones and a couple of powerheads going. I pulled our old striplights out of the basement and I figure I have about 160watts of NO algae-producing light going.

I collected 25gal of seawater and am heating that up for a partial water change.

But you gotta understand - this is HIS hobby. I don't know what the fark I 'm doing here!!!!

Questions:
Any body got any theory what the hell happened???

What would quickly kill fish and a shrimp but leave corals relatively okay?

If I can't get the return going, is this going to survive until Thursday afternoon?

Anything else I should be doing?

Anybody want to buy some reef equipment ??? (okay, kidding here. Nothing for sale. Yet ;) )

Thank you everyone (especially Dr. Jake),
Vallyre Hyers

[dad300]

OH that is terrible. I wish I knew more and could help.

[Greg Hiller]

>Any body got any theory what the hell happened???

What would quickly kill fish and a shrimp but leave corals relatively okay? <

Low dissolved oxygen probably killed the fish, usually large fish are the most suseptible to this. The corals might recover.

[fldamsel]

Sounds like your husband knows, did he give you any other numbers to call? There is club in your area did you try asking them for help?

[fldamsel]

have you checked the gravity? If you put in more ro/di water and lost some salt water you may want to check and see if you need salt

[Mike Accardi]

Vallyre,

Are there any lights on the tank right now ?

If the metal halide ballast fried, and the tank is dark, there
are lots of corals that won't make it to Thursday, if the tank
is dark.

[Marco67]

Vallyre, Ken,
Sorry to hear that news. One thing you can be sure of is that this group is a tight knit bunch of A1 people and I'm sure you will get plenty of help and support.
One very ironic thing here...Ken was the first guy I met in the club back at the NEAQ meeting Feb 1999? ... our systems had so much in common then and sorta took the same course in years to follow.... now we share this? that's so so strange.

Hang in there, I wish I could offer to help but I'm in the middle of dealing with my own crisis, I'll be there in spirit.

Oh and ...Way to go Jake!

[Ken2001]

It is amazing how quickly the O2 level could have dropped, especially since the tank went slightly cold - it's usually at around 80deg and I think it fell to 75 because it took awhile for me to move the heater. A colder tank fares better, no?

Also, I had three powerheads going - two 301s and one bigger one (I dunno what it is). And the tank is open. No canopy. Wouldn't that be enough O2 at least for overnight? Or can it happen that quickly?

I know when poweheads blow they sometimes leak copper and other nasty stuff...any toxin anybody know of that comes from a pump that would kill fish first?

[wrassefan]

Sounds like the overflow and loss of 10gal or so of water started the process. The addition of that much fresh water can cause the salinity, ph and temp to shift and cause stress. When the overflow stopped without circulation (until you put the powerheads in), the lack of oxygen (as stated above) got the larger fish and the more delicate fish first. So sorry to hear about another reefer with problems. If I can help in any way, please let me know. What part of the north shore do you live?? More help the better at this moment.

[reefnroll]

Hello Vallyre -

I give you a lot of credit. You've got your hands full... but it sounds like you're doing all you can to rally.

I was going to say the same thing as Greg about the 02. Major fish loss due to low 02 happened to Greg and to me, so we know first hand how quickly the 02 levels can fall and become deadly. The powerheads you used overnight would have needed to be very strategically placed (near the water surfac for 02 exchange)... otherwise, they would not have been very efficient suppliers of 02.

Also... back to the origins of the whole problem. Did you ever figure out why the Mag 7 failed? I would - if possible - get that up and running again... or some kind of increased turnover for the tank. Even a hang-on filter on the tank itself for a few days to make sure the 02 levels stay up.

bec

[this is me]

i hope everything goes well when he get back.
i'm terribly sorry to hear about what happen to ken's tank. I got my first BTA from him.

[reefnroll]

Wrassfan -
From what I can tell, it sounds like Vallyre topped off the tank water with SUMP water... not fresh water... so there should have been no issue with a major ph nor salinity shift.

I think the 02 drop overnight was the issue that caused the losses. Increased 02 (with or without the sump being operational) would be the thing to do to try and keep things stable until Thursday... in my opinion.

b

[Ken2001]

Well, I think part of the mystery is solved...

You guys nailed it - it's gotta be low O2 levels.

Right now the tank is stable, with an airpump running two airstones and a two 301s. There's two striplights w/4 4'NOs over the tank, so approx. 160watts of crappy light, but enough to keep the stonys going until Thursday when Ken can prepare the rest of the sump in the basement and move them to the 400w MH downstairs. I'm heating NSW which I collected this am to do a 25 gal change.

Tank is stable but the fish are history. Only the pyjama cardinals, the maroon clown, the small acro goby and possibly my lawnmower blenny survived.

Here's what I think happened -
Mag 7 failed? I dunno, but the return is where this started. The tank return was blocked up with growth. Sump overflowed. Water spilled on GFCI plug which is UNDER the tank in the basement (I think we'll be fixing this shortly :rolleye1: ). GFCI tripped unknowingly on me last night. No circulation, no heat in the tank for approx. 6 hours, and there go the fish.

Jake (bless his heart) is crafting a new return which I'll pick up from him tonight and install to the Mag9 and get the circulation and going again.

Anybody know of a e-ballast for two 250s and two 40w actinics for sale??? :hmm4:

Thank you SO much for everyone's offer of help. What a community! Amazing.

-Vallyre Hyers

[Scott Merrill]

Jake/Vallyre,
let me know what i can do to help
i can bring what ever you need over to your place.
extra tanks,Water, lights, pumps, skimmers?
I just got laid off last week and have all the time in the world to help out.
:D

[jacko]

you might want to book yourself a hotel for the next month


haha, just kidding. Actually, you are more knowledgable than you think about this tank. I wish my girlfriend understood as much as you do.

Anyway, I think you will be getting a lot of helpful hints, my 1st guess was aeration. powerful water movement is necessary, and the water's journey from the tank to the sump, through the skimmer, and back are important for this reason. This loop was stopped, and the fish probably ran out of oxygen. keep the water flowing. And be careful disconnecting those ballasts! good luck.

[Ken2001]

Scott - thanks for the offers...good luck with the jobhunt. Been there done that...enjoy the unemployment! If I can't get circulation going tonight I might take you up on the equipment rental thing...

Jacko - I thought of asking on the list if anyone had a spare bedroom they could loan me until Ken cools down after he sees his prize trigger in the ziploc next to the meatballs, but then I realized all of you have those darn tanks...I'll probably be sleeping in the boat in the driveway...

A wife/girlfriend/person who can't escape the hobby/ learns some of this stuff by osmosis - Ken fiddles with this crap in the middle of the living room and I go with him when he picks out little parts of things at Home Depot and I helped pick some fish (that are now stiff, of course) and corals so I had to do some book learnin' to figure out what can live with what and why and what things are called. So yeah, I do know some stuff, but obviously NOT ENOUGH !!!!!

Maybe I can convince him to take up furniture refinishing instead. (I'll get no sympathy here...so I think I'll stop now!!! :) :) )

Edited to add - like Ken's sigline? I added that today. Hope he thinks it is funny (he won't).
And Ken, if you're reading this in Israel (you might, since you mentioned Marco's tank on the phone), I LOVE YOU and YOUR CORALS ARE, well, KINDA OKAY.
-V

[Scuba_Dave]

You will get all the sympathy you need here, you saved the corals. Imagine if both of you were gone & this accident happened? I think you did a great job, I'm going to be going over my tank w/my wife bring her up to speed. She ran our FO for over 2 years without a problem. The system we have now is bigger, but she knows the basics.
Good luck, you have enough experienced reefers near you to help out

[nhanson]

Believe me, you can f--k up furniture refinishing pretty good too! :D

Try competetive reclining or rock collecting if you're looking for a no-consequences hobby. ;)

Sorry to hear about the mishap. I hope the corals and remaining fish make it through ok. Sounds like you did pretty well in the crisis. You surely know more about this stuff than I do, to say nothing of my wife! So I think things could have been a lot worse if you weren't so handy and knowledgeble (or maybe it's just the fear that's enabling you to perform so well :) )

Good luck,
Nate

[Ken2001]

Quick update:

All polyps on the stonies are open. Color remains good. Hammer, mushrooms, candycane, rhodactis, brain, as well as the acros & montis (birdsnest, purple, brown "weed" acro, pagoda) all look fat and happy with full polyp extension and nice color (although the NO lights suck).

The Xenia looks terriffic!!! Oh how Ken would cry if he lost his Xenia! hahahahaha.

Small yellow acro goby looks great. Pyjama cardinal great. Maroon, in BTA and happy. Both BTAs looks fine. Lawnmower blenny, baaaad, but gasping next to an airstone.

Gosh NO lights are ugly.

Thanks again everyone for your help. I'll try to find a forum like this for Ken's new ROCK COLLECTING hobby :rollface:

-Vallyre

Edited to add: Oh yeah. Be sure to stay tuned to this thread on Thursday when he returns and spies the demise...yikes. I might ask him to take a cab from the airport and the kids and I are gonna take a little trip to NH.

[spyro]

REALLY sorry for your losses..... ;-(

You did a great job reacting in a stressful situation.


Some advice for the Chief Reefkeeper at your house :

In the future I would definitely go with a better quality pump such as an Iwaki and I would buy 2, one as a backup. I would plumb the return pump with unions and ball valves on each side of the pump to allow easy removal and replacement. Also, the return needs to be cleaned and/or checked periodically or it will clog if their is an algae problem (particularly bubble algae). I would also plumb the tank drains into the tank (easy, even for a glass tank) instead of using a siphon...these are prone to failure and is just another weak point for things to go badly. I would also purchase a spare ballast along with the new one you will need and keep the spare on hand for mishaps.

In short, ugrade everything...it is worth it in the log run. An even Double upgrade (spare pumps,ballasts,etc) everything and make sure that it is easy to replace pumps and lighting through a well thought out plan/design. Have a backup system for O2 saturation such as a few air pumps/stones with a battery backup and make it easy and fast for someone to turn on and/or install.

I am in Saugus and I am available if you need any assistance whatsoever. I will be home at around 6 pm. Please PM me if you need me to come over to help Jake or for anything else.

Regards and sorry again for your losses,

Chuck Spyropulos

[Ken2001]

Chuck -

The "funniest" thing here is...this tank was just about to be broken down and replaced with a 150, plumbed to a 100 gal sump in the basement. He's got all the parts, all the tubing, an Iwaki pump, a 6' skimmer, calc reactor, etc etc. This 75 was on its last legs and about to be completely overhauled as soon as he got back.

The 100 gal sump has had a deep sandbed and water but he didn't get a chance to get it circulating enough yet or I just woulda dumped the 75 stuff down there if it was cycled and ready.

So I think in all the plannig for the new one, he hadn't cleaned the return in awhile...so...

But having the GFCI RIGHT UNDER THE TANK as well as the ballasts is stupid stupid and will be fixed shortly. (And he has the excuse of buying a new ballast now, too, so I did him a favor :) )

[spyro]

Oh Boy... I guess timing was not on his side. I know how it feels...I lost 25% of my corals 3 years ago when I was on vacation. The temp in my tank went from 78 to 86 because I did not have a chiller. I thought that the Central AC would be adequate (with fans over the tank of course) but it was not. And the housesitter ignored the loud beeping from my Aquadyne Octopus Controller !!! Needless to say...I bought a chiller and also I try to buuletbroof my tank every chance I get....cause Murphy is out there waiting to rear his ugly head !

I think you did a great job recovering...If you were not there to do what you did the tank would be a totla loss. Your husband is lucky to have you to "watch over" his tank.

Regards,
Chuck Spyropulos
Originally posted by Ken2001
Chuck -

The "funniest" thing here is...this tank was just about to be broken down and replaced with a 150, plumbed to a 100 gal sump in the basement. He's got all the parts, all the tubing, an Iwaki pump, a 6' skimmer, calc reactor, etc etc. This 75 was on its last legs and about to be completely overhauled as soon as he got back.

The 100 gal sump has had a deep sandbed and water but he didn't get a chance to get it circulating enough yet or I just woulda dumped the 75 stuff down there if it was cycled and ready.

So I think in all the plannig for the new one, he hadn't cleaned the return in awhile...so...

But having the GFCI RIGHT UNDER THE TANK as well as the ballasts is stupid stupid and will be fixed shortly. (And he has the excuse of buying a new ballast now, too, so I did him a favor :) )

[RobboT]

I'd say Vallyre gets the "Reefer Spouse of the Year" award for such a valiant effort.

[Ken2001]

That's sweet, but...I'm still not convinced I didn't cause this somehow.

I have NO idea what I could have done, but Mag7 pumps don't generally "fail" like this. All I can figure is that I broke the rules and put my hands in the tank to pick off some hair algae that appeared to be choking some acros and monti's and that some of it went tankborne instead of getting put in the cup...and that somehow clogged the return and burned the pump.

It's gotta be my fault, somehow. This tank's been running for 5 yrs with hardly a hitch.

So I humbly decline any awards...

[spyro]

I agree , absolutely !


Originally posted by RobboT
I'd say Vallyre gets the "Reefer Spouse of the Year" award for such a valiant effort.

[reefnroll]

Vallyre -

One more thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned yet. If you could get a batch of water ready - or nearly ready - for a water change... that will probably be the first thing to be done when Ken returns. With all the dead fish... there's bound to be the need... If you guys have an RO unit, you porbably already know how to get the water dripping and the salt mixed before Thursday. If yo need more help getting that done, let us know and we'll talk you through it.

bec

[Ken2001]

Hey all, this is Ken, sitting in his room in Tel Aviv.

First of all - Vallyre, I love you! And I'm not at all angry with you - You've done a fantastic job of trying to keep my hobby going while I've taken off for two weeks and left you with a tank that i didn't even fully prep you on for worst case distasters. Any fault is mine, and I'm upset that I didn't get the new system ready before I left. That's my screw-up, and nobody elses.

Second - Jake. Thanks man. I really really appreciate it. I woke you up in the AM, as I'm calling from my mobile while running from one meeting to another, and you didn't even hesitate. You said you'd be right there to help out, and you were. That's a true Reefin buddy! I owe you big!

What I guess might have gone wrong: The tank has been running for several years, and over the last six months I suddenly developed a horriffic hair algae problem, due to an underpowered skimmer that wasn't removing enough of the bad stuff. I recently bought a new Mag9 to power the skimmer. It sounds like the Mag9 went south. On top of that, because I probably didn't do a good job of cleaning the system before I left, hair algae blocked the return, and algae and polyps grew over the syphon break. The rest followed from there.

Yeah, I'm pretty sick over this. I read Marco's thread last night and thought " Oh man, that's just awful. I hope that never happens to me." Talk about bad Karma - maybe I stepped on a bug or something.

Anyway, what makes this worse is that the new system was nearly ready. The only reason the new 100 gal sump wasn't ready and running was that I had discovered that the way I had plumbed the new sump to the Iwaki 100 was causing some vibrations in the line that I didn't like, so I'd said "Oh, it'll wait till I get back." Famous last words.

Well, I'll be back in a few days, and then I'll assess the damage. This won't keep me out of the hobby, but it really makes me sad that through my own pre-trip neglect, I've managed to kill so many of the fish that I've brought along, some for several years. You know, in February I lost my 16 year old cat, and my 12 year old iguana, but those, while really painful, were easier to take because that was just age, and the natural course of things, after long and healthy lives. This tank crash just makes me sad because it might not have been inevitable if I'd just prepared a little better.

The silver lining in all this is that Vallyre was there and she did everthing she could to save what she could. It's really great to be married to someone who takes that kind of care, just because she knows it's important to me. I'm really fortunate that way.

Thanks Vallyre. Thanks Jake. Without both of you, I'm sure I would have come back to a cold, dead tank. You two have made sure that I've got something left to start over with. Thank you very very much.

Ken

[soccer4life94]

Even though I havent gotten my tank off the ground yet, I think it would be a great idea to have a "Im away...what if" thread. A place to post that your going to be away and have people volunteer to "Be on call" sort of speak. Trade names and phone numbers that can be printed off and given to whoever is watching over the tank. That way if something happens the tank watcher can call the first guy (or gal) on the list. Kind of an Emergency Phone List. If no one gets to check the tank out before the owner gets home...as this situation proves, it can be fatal. In an emergency, a tank needs a Veteran to take control and get it stable til the owner returns. Whats everyone think?

[Jake]

Ken if you get a chance call me tonight after 8pm and I will fill you in on all the details of what I noticed. But here is the skinny

When I got there I immediatly hooked up a dual air pump I brought and got some air in the tank. Then tested the SG and PH - both fine as Vallyre detailed. Some of the acros were breaking the surface so checkd the sump SG and PH in case kalk or FW had been added and the sump water was ~NSW so topped off the tank. Ran around Kens basement looking for more tubing and fittings and carbon and salt. Getting bodies out with a tong (Frozen awaiting proper burial). Found carbon and nylons combined the two and rinsed and hung in the tank.

"Mag7 pumps don't generally "fail" like this."

Actually I have had a Mag 7 fail EXACTLY like this and it made the smae clicking noise that this pump did when we tried to fire it up again. I really dont like the old mag 7's, I dont know if the new ones are better. I am fairly confident in saying that the Mag 7 failing was probably the start of the problem. the water obviously made it down to the ballasts and shorted out the GFI downstairs. The water in the stand tripped the two power cords on the floor in the stand and this cut the power to the heater and powerheads.

When Vallyre noticed the tank was at 75 and usually is at 80 I noticed the heater was plugged in but not receiving power. Powerheads were plugged into the same strip. Once we reset the GFI downstairs and then turned the strips off and back on the heater light and powerheads went back on. This was the killer IMO. You would have been fine with three PH's running espically since with the low water level they all would have been breaking the surface.


We then removed the old canopy and put the two dual strips over the tank. Tank has 140W of NO light over it in my best estimation. Talked to Valarie about making up some water for a change and she said she could go get 25 G of NSW and do the change today. I am going to assemble a new return for the tank tonight when I get home from work ~8pm and Vallyre is going to swing by and pick it up. When I last talked to her this afternoon she was heating the NSW for the water change.

Ken,

Feel free to call me tonight if you want any more details. I will be up late as I still have to pack for a business trip to CA tomorrow. I will be on the road after that so if you don't contact me tonight you might not be able to contact me again untill friday.

Vallyre,

Your in good hands with these guys. Post if anything even minor occurs and these people will guide you through figuring out if there really is a problem.

To everyone else,

I have to hand the ball off to you all so please give Valarie a hand if anything comes up. I think it would be a good idea for someone to swing by and check on the tank Wednesday or tomorrow night and test for ammonia, nitrite etc and just write it down for ken or advise Vallyre if a 2nd water change is necessary. Just my opinion I am sure Vallyre will let you know what she feels comfortable with doing.


believe it or not I got a call this evening from another one of my friends saying they had a tank crash last night!!!! Now I am Really nervous leaving my tank for a few days! I am going to leave a list of numbers with my wife in case of an emergency and I still will probably be sleepless with worry.

later

Jake

[yaktop]

not another one. oh god. bad luck normally comes in three's. making me nervous. gotta do another course with the misses to make sure she knows what she is doing in the event of. Vallyre you did awesome and hope my wife does as well in the event of the unknown. sorry to hear and hope things come together quickly for you both.

[Ken2001]

Quick update...Ken, maybe you'll check this thread when you wake up...hopefully.

Jake is a miracle worker!!! He assembled a return hose with a gate-valve fitting to reduce the flow so we don't flood the overflow. I went over to Jake's and got this assembly and when I got home, I simply screwed the Mag9 in (perfect threads!), ran the tubing up the front of the tank like he told me, and he had fashioned a u with wrap-ties and hard plastic fittings with a nozzle-like end that he heated and bent downward and it swivels. I put it in the front corner of the glass pointed away from the acros and kind of sweeping across the front like he said. Then I got the suction back in the u-tube on the overflow and we appear to be in business.

Ken, you've got the digital camera, but I took a couple of movies with the digital camcorder and captured a couple of stills. Here's your tank - it's a little cloudy from the storm I made, but:

http://home.comcast.net/~v.hyers/tankmess1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~v.hyers/tankmess2.jpg

The lawnmower blenny has disappeared. Bad sign.
Both PJ cardinals are fine.
Yellow goby is fine.
Maroon clown is fine.
Corals are fine.
Uh, the rest are .... well...
Crabs are going crazy. A few snails seem to be okay...

Looks like this will hang on till Thursday.
Love you, hope all is well in Tel Aviv!

And all of you on RC - you are an amazing bunch. Thanks for your support through this! And I think I know where to find you if this crashes in the next two days since Jake's on the left coast!!!

Thanks again, everyone,
-Vallyre

[Ken2001]

Dang, you're still up, and I'm just waking up. It looks like a good setup - without the heavy bioload, I bet the remaining fish will be just fine till I get back.

Jake - it's seven hours time dif, so 8 EST there is 3AM here, which is why I didn't see your email earlier or call you. Thanks for helping out so much - I really do appreciate it.

BTW, Scott/Steve, thanks for offers of help too. It's nice to have multiple redundancy in this type of situation.

Ken

[spyro]

I think this is a great idea

Originally posted by soccer4life94
Even though I havent gotten my tank off the ground yet, I think it would be a great idea to have a "Im away...what if" thread. A place to post that your going to be away and have people volunteer to "Be on call" sort of speak. Trade names and phone numbers that can be printed off and given to whoever is watching over the tank. That way if something happens the tank watcher can call the first guy (or gal) on the list. Kind of an Emergency Phone List. If no one gets to check the tank out before the owner gets home...as this situation proves, it can be fatal. In an emergency, a tank needs a Veteran to take control and get it stable til the owner returns. Whats everyone think?

[spyro]

Vallyre,

Let me know if u need help doing testing, water changes, or whatever.
Please PM me if you have any questions an I will attempt to anwer them.

Regards,

Chuck Spyropulos