How do I recover?

[jeeptp75]

How do I recover??
Well here it goes.

My system has been up and runnign for over 2.5 years now basicly problem free. I went through you basic algae blooms in the beginning and the normal cycling of the tank. Since then I have had tons of succuss with lots of beginner corals and my Sea Pen seems to have lived alot longer then most. My core fish that I have had from the beginning have always done well (these include: coral beauty, yellow tang, clown fish, among others)

So this is how things went. All of a sudden I start losing fish. One at a time. Im a little confused so I go out and buy another. they die in two or three days. Still my core fish are looking fine, no signs of disease at all. Then the yellow tang goes. hmm thats odd. Then one by one they all die.

While all this happens I have a huge hair algae bloom that is so bad it has smothered and killed almost all my corals.

I have checked my levels over and over again. The only thing that is a little high is my nitrates but they are no higher than they were during normal operation.

While the other fish were dieing I bought a green chromis and a yellow and blue damsal. They are all thats alive right now along with some shrimp and hermit crabs. I had a ton of snails but the shrimp ate them all.


So what steps should I take to reclaim my system??? Soom im goinig to scrap it and have a nice spot for anoter recliner.

HELP!!!!

system set up should be in signature.

[SPC]

Originally posted by jeeptp75
How do I recover??
Well here it goes.

My system has been up and runnign for over 2.5 years now basicly problem free. I went through you basic algae blooms in the beginning and the normal cycling of the tank. Since then I have had tons of succuss with lots of beginner corals and my Sea Pen seems to have lived alot longer then most. My core fish that I have had from the beginning have always done well (these include: coral beauty, yellow tang, clown fish, among others)

So this is how things went. All of a sudden I start losing fish. One at a time. Im a little confused so I go out and buy another. they die in two or three days. Still my core fish are looking fine, no signs of disease at all. Then the yellow tang goes. hmm thats odd. Then one by one they all die.

Fish will often times become used to certain conditions that a new fish will not tolerate.

While all this happens I have a huge hair algae bloom that is so bad it has smothered and killed almost all my corals.

That is from high organics and is most likely why the new fish you introduced died. When this new fish died it contributed to the poor water quality and sent the original fish over the edge IMO.

I have checked my levels over and over again. The only thing that is a little high is my nitrates but they are no higher than they were during normal operation.

In order to have hair algae this bad, your phosphate levels have got to be extremely high. Remember, our hobbyist tests only test for certain types of phosphates, and add to this that much of the phosphate and nitrate is locked up in the algae mass itself.

While the other fish were dieing I bought a green chromis and a yellow and blue damsal. They are all thats alive right now along with some shrimp and hermit crabs. I had a ton of snails but the shrimp ate them all.

I have no idea why this would be if you haven't taken steps to reduce your nitrate and phosphate levels.


So what steps should I take to reclaim my system???

Reduce the high nutrient levels in your system, and remove the hair algae outside of the tank.
Steve

[NicoleC]

Following up on SPC, some more concrete steps:

1) If you are going to skim, get a better skimmer
2) Add a refugium with lots of macro
3) Switch out a lot of your LR, if that rock has been in there for 2 1/2 years. The rock dissolves over time, and this could be limiting your bio filtration
4) Have you changed your bulbs recently?
5) Taper off use of the Fluval and eventually take it offline except to run carbon ocassionally. The Fluval is probably contributing to your high Nitrates.

Speaking of, how high ARE you nitrates?

[jeeptp75]

Thanks for the info.

While waiting for a reply I was reading some other threads and was wondering if Phosphate could be my problem. Some people have told me that I might have a parasite in my tank which killed my fish but im wondering how the chromis and damsal are surviving that. Right now the algae is my biggest problem. You can barly see the rock anymore its getting so bad.

[Scorch268]

I agree, get a better skimmer as a first step, check your canister filters to make sure that detrius hasnt accumulated and is leeching nitrates. I would also get rid of the tang in a 55.

[jeeptp75]

Well the tang is definatly gone, it died along time ago when all the other fish died. Now about the better skimmer. What exactly do better skimmers remove that mine doesnt. And I will definatly clean up the canaster tonight. Thanks

[Brodirt]

I agree with the advice on pump cleaning. Not sure, but I blame my bad cyano (and hair where it could find space) breakout of some time ago to my ignorance of my canister filter.

[Scorch268]

I would advise you to get rid of the canister and do a LR filtration w/ carbon on occassion. regarding the skimmer, a better one creates finer bubbles and through better architecture, pulls more waste from the water. Look in AquaC or Euroreef.

[dvmsn]

You can have the best skimmer in the world, if you don't have enough herbivours your gonna have an algea outbreak. If you remove all the herbivours from the most pristine unspoiled section of the Great barrier reef, you will get an algae outbreak. I would remove as much of the hair algae as possible by hand with a soft brissel tooth brush and then add about 30 astrea snails and get rid of those damn shrimp.

[SPC]

Originally posted by dvmsn
You can have the best skimmer in the world, if you don't have enough herbivours your gonna have an algea outbreak. If you remove all the herbivours from the most pristine unspoiled section of the Great barrier reef, you will get an algae outbreak.

Ah, but there has to be a balance here, dvmsn. Adding additional animals that produce nutrients (animals only assimilate 10% of what they eat, 90% is excreted as waste) is not going to help a situation where high organics are already a problem.

I would remove as much of the hair algae as possible by hand with a soft brissel tooth brush and then add about 30 astrea snails

As far as what I have read, astrea's are not good hair algae grazers.

Steve

[jeeptp75]

Originally posted by Scorch268
I would advise you to get rid of the canister and do a LR filtration w/ carbon on occassion.

How eactly do you use carbon on occassion of your only filtering with live rock? Just curious.

[discocarp]

Some good advice, but we've missed the obvious short term help. Water changes with RO/DI! More often than normal maintenence changes.

If you have an RODI unit, when was the last time you changed any cartridges? You should get a TDS meter and see what quality water its producing these days. If you don't have RODI, get one!

Peter

[Rick Davis]

Originally posted by jeeptp75
While all this happens I have a huge hair algae bloom that is so bad it has smothered and killed almost all my corals.


Just a guess here...

Algae consumes O2 and produces CO2 100% of the time, but during the photosynthetic period it becomes a net producer of O2. At night it is draining O2 from your system. Since the bloom is huge, you may have an O2 problem at night.

BTW, did the fish die during the night?

[jeeptp75]

Yes all the fish died over night.

So how do I combat an O2 problem thats happening at night.

[Rick Davis]

Well it may be suffocation during the night. Fish suffocation is a common problem in freshwater ponds that become overgrown with algae in the summer so I think it can also occur in our saltwater tanks that have excessive hair algae blooms. Especially since O2 levels in saltwater are lower than they are in freshwater.

So just to play it safe, yank out as much algae as you can (this is a good idea anyway). Try and increase aeration at night - maybe add an air pump with an airstone thats on during the night. Cranking up your skimmer will also help aerate the water. If you have a refugium, run the light at night.

I would try these type of measures first and see what happens. If you continue to lose fish, then it probably is not because of an O2 problem.

[dvmsn]

Ah, but there has to be a balance here, dvmsn. Adding additional animals that produce nutrients (animals only assimilate 10% of what they eat, 90% is excreted as waste) is not going to help a situation where high organics are already a problem.

I agree, having a system in balance is what it is all about. My point is just that even a perfectly balanced system (Maybe not his at the present time) is going to have algae w/o any grazers


As far as what I have read, astrea's are not good hair algae grazers.

Again, I agree. But if the mats are mannually removed the snails should help control future outbreaks.

[SPC]

Originally posted by dvmsn
Ah, but there has to be a balance here, dvmsn. Adding additional animals that produce nutrients (animals only assimilate 10% of what they eat, 90% is excreted as waste) is not going to help a situation where high organics are already a problem.

I agree, having a system in balance is what it is all about. My point is just that even a perfectly balanced system (Maybe not his at the present time) is going to have algae w/o any grazers

True, its trying to keep the right amount of grazers, in proportion to the current algae amounts, as well as the future amounts that is the tricky part.
Steve

[rayjay]

In my opinion, grazers/cleanup crews are not an absolute requirement to maintain a mature tank and keep algae under control.
I don't use clean up crews other than 3 of 7 tanks have a serpent star, but none have snails/hermits etc..
Most tanks have one tang, but tanks without a tang and having no other grazer are doing just fine.
One problem I have with the cleanup crews etc, it that the snails/hermits feed on the algae but then pass their wastes back into the water for more food for algae to grow on.
For me, I prefer to use heavy protein skimming and it works for me.
To get the tanks to a mature state, I probably do more water changes for a while, but the algae stages will progress to a normal stage in about 12 to 18 months.
I'm fortunate to be able to use tap water where I live
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[jeeptp75]

THanks for all the info. I started last night with a very good cleaning of the canaster filter. I also start removing part ouf the the tank (ie: power heads) and cleaning the 3" of hair algae off of them. Next its the rocks. Im going ot have to be careful though since my leather toadstool is still doing very good I dont want to disterb it.

Im also going to start running an air stone this evening.

[kevlouie]

I had some similar problems and I've been documenting things I've done to combat/overcome them. I think the best thing I did was remove some of my sandbed (between half and 2/3 of a 4" bed) and do massive water changes just after rmoving sand. Heres a link to what I found/did.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=307682

[Brodirt]

I also removed part of my sandbed when I had my problem. In fact I have done a little bit of all of the above advice, only difference was that my problem started with Cyano. When I conquered that and the tank started kicking again, I had a small hair algae bloom. Herbivores got that under control very very quickly though.

[jeeptp75]

Ahhh see im also dealing with a Cyano bloom also. And what really has taught me that i have a serious problem si that I used Chemi-Clean and has always worked very well in the past but now it barly puts a dent in the Cyano.

I have a crushed coral bed that is only about 2"-3" deep. Should I still consider removing some of that? I Can barly get to any of my substrate though because of all my live rock. There isnt much exposed.

[kevlouie]

I Can barly get to any of my substrate though because of all my live rock. There isnt much exposed

DING DING DING!!!!


Oh yeah I know exactly what your problem is. I had a CC substrate for 9 years. You MUST vacuum them out periodically, and this means all the substrate. You need to do something a little more drastic. Get you a 4 dollar utility tub at walmart. Pull all of you rock out and put it in there. Catch any fish/inverts/coral and isolate them in a bucket, smaller tank, whatever. Vacuum all of the CC, stir the heck out of it, and drain every last drop, you may even want to keep a bucket of the tank water out and add it after you get all the water out, dump that last bucket in, and then vacuum the rest out. Now put all good water back in. Then, cleaning the rock as you go, put the rock back in. Add critters. Repeat as necessary. Lot of work? YES! But it will work.

[jeeptp75]

Ok in doing all that the only thing im really worred about keepiing alive the the Leather Toadstool Coral. Anyone have any suggetions on how to protect it while doing all this???

Thanks again everyone.

[kevlouie]

If you've got a friend nearby let him babysit it for a few days. Otherwise it should be okay in a bucket for a few hours while you clean it out. Make all new saltwater when you refill the tank, just don't mix it in the tank, as you could kill your bacterial bed. Once you get the water and rock back in, just wait a few hours and you should be okay.

[Brodirt]

I did the bucket thing also. I vacumed off all of the rock that I could. Then all life that I could see went out of the tank into 5 5 gallon buckets. I also saved a bucket of clean tank water, in fact I ran a diatom filter on the 5 gallon bucket of tank water while I was doing all of this. I pulled out about 1/3 of my arag sand bed and stirred up the rest. I ran all my power heads at the bottom of the tank to keep the junk from settling. Then I ran my diatom on the tank. By the way air in the buckets with life!

After a couple of hours I broke down the canister, cleaned it out again, changed about 15 gallons of the 40 or so in the tank, let that settle and reset the life creating a better flow.

Next went the antired routine for a week. Skimmer on and skimmer off on days I dosed.

All of this and NOTHING died, at least nothing that was left after that cyano bloom.

Be careful and you will get it all done and done well. Good luck.