Borneman Flush Device, has anyone tryed it?

[pomme]

Borneman Flush Device, has anyone tryed it?

Hiys guys, i hope your all well.

I have just been reading 'Aquarium Corals' by Eric Borneman and was looking at the water movement bit and came across his flush device on p.341.

It is basically a resevoirtankabove the tank which is fed by a pump. The resevoir has a bulkhead in the side which has a toilet flush valve, so when the water fills to a certain level,the float has risen and pulled the flush flapperup so opening the valveand then water drains back down to the tank.

Just wondering if anyone has tried it and found it works etc.

Andrew

[T Sandman]

I think alot of people have tried it. Try searching for surge or surge device.

[pomme]

cool thanx

[SaltwaterNovice]

Pomme:

Try searching for a "Carlson surge device." It is a similiar device with no moving parts.

Cheers,

Brian

[Brian Prestwood]

I've built both, sort of. I could never get Eric's flush valve design to work. I did get the Aqua Touch swing arm flush valve design to work pretty reliably. Flush valves tend to have a stonger surge but they really are not that reliable. Nothing works as reliably as a Carson surge. I'd stick with it.

You can see an MPEG of my flush value firing on the OZ Reef site...

MPEG of Flapper Valve Firing (http://ozreef.org/diy/flapper_surge.html)

The Carlson surges are very simple to build. The one suggestion I'd make is that you look for a design that has a siphon break tube running down the exhaust side of the siphon tube. IMI, they really make a difference.

[pomme]

so at the top of the u youhave a hole drilled and a bit of piping puched in and then down the side of the u to where you want the siphon to stop?

does this elliminate the amount of bubbles going into the tank?

and also does the u have to be a full u or can it go like this:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/387073.JPG

and could you also have the surge going into a tank which is sbove the main tank which has say three outlets to the tank, and also covered to stop salt creep, would this help?

[ejmeier]

pomme, I think this link might help; it was written by Dr. Carlson himself. :)

http://www.breeders-registry.gen.ca.us/Reprints/SeaScope/v13_sumr/surge.htm

[Brian Prestwood]

Pomme

My design was based primarily on the design EJMeier linked to. It works well.

The siphon break tube, #3, is clearly labeled in the drawing. I ran it down the middle of the exhast tube instead of around the outside.

Here's a drawing...

http://www.marineaquarist.org/Portals/9e47b9dd-73aa-4c61-8ad9-7eadcacbad35/CarlsonSurgeBucket.jpg

The big tubes are all 1.5" ABS.

I wanted all my plumbing to run through the bottom of the bucket.

The two thin risers are 1/4 ridged tubing. The one on the right runs down the middle of the exhaust tube. Drill a hole stright down with a drill press. Invert the whole thing so the hole with the tube through it is at the bottom of the sand trap. Insert the tube. Dap some quick setting two part clear resin on the tube just above the hole. It will drip down onto the hole and set. Viola, air tight seal.

The other thin riser is just tie wrapped to the outside of the 1.5" riser. The drawing of the Carlson surge show the siphon break level with the upper water line. I couldn't get that to work. When I ran it to the bottom of the siphon riser it worked fine.

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by Brian Prestwood
The other thin riser is just tie wrapped to the outside of the 1.5" riser. The drawing of the Carlson surge show the siphon break level with the upper water line. I couldn't get that to work. When I ran it to the bottom of the siphon riser it worked fine.
According to Dr. Calson, that line is supposed to be an air-vent, not a siphon break. I just built my own CSD today and didn't like the vent. It pulled in way too many bubbles, and wasn't needed.

I think his reasoning for using the air vent was because the exit part of the siphon was so far below the water line that the air couldn't force its way out of the line, and a siphon would never start. With mine, the end of the siphon tube is just barely below the water line in my tank, so I don't have this problem.

To ensure a siphon break, Calrson recommends just cutting the end of the siphon pipe on the intake end at a 45 degree angle. I haven't tried this yet, but it makes sense.

[Brian Prestwood]

Eric

I just realized my siphon break tubing was 3/8", not 1/4". What diameter tubing did you use for your siphon tube?

If you have a big sink or bath tub available I suggest you test it there. Just set a couple of boards across the top and set the CSB on top of them.

After the diameter of the siphon tube, the fill rate and the depth of the exhaust tube (#1, 2) determine if, how fast, the siphon catches. You'll probably need to test it a bit.

The tricky part of the CSB is getting the siphon to break fast enough to prevent water and air from being continiously sucked into the siphon tube intake (#10) at the end of the cycle. At best, that introduces bubbles. At worst, it just keeps sucking air and water in and the siphon never breaks.

With testing I found the CSB without the siphon break tube would cycle for a while then stick as described above.

Some of the plans I found suggest cutting the siphon intake tube of at an angle to help break the siphon quickly. This helped. Now it was cycling for hours before it stuck. Still not good enough.

That's when I tried the siphon break tube (#6, 8, 9).

When the intake of the siphon break tube was positioned at the water line it acted like a draft tube and introduced air into the exhaust flow throughout the exhaust cycle. When I lowered it to the bottom it only introduced air at the end of the cycle as the siphon broke.

One of our members built one of these out of the clear tubing Home Depot sells for shop vac return systems in a semi-transparent bucket. The bucket was clear when it was full of water. It did not include the siphon break.

It stuck just like my original version did. You could see the water inside the exhaust side of the siphon tube (#2) was sitting a couple inches above the tank water line. In other words, there was a vacuum holding the water in the exhaust side of the siphon tube above the tank water line. That's why I call the smaller tube (#6, 8, 9) a siphon break, not a vent.

For what it is worth, I just took my two CSBs offline while I work on my lighting. They've been running continiously for about 18 months without sticking. I get about two surges a minute on each. That's 3,214,080 surges without fail.

[ejmeier]

Well, to be honest, I don't even know if I'm going to use a surge device anyway. :( I mean, I just cannot think of a single application where this could work for me indoors. It is kind of depressing though, as I went out and bought all of the parts and supplies to make four of them.

I guess my main issue is with the bubbles. I don't care what they look like, but I just can't have that much saltspray. Sure, this might be okay for a sump, but on a display tank? How do you keep your lighting from getting *completely* covered in salt? (Add to this the fact that the SLS Tek-Light fixture I'm using doesn't use water-proof endcaps, and you can guess that I'm a little nervous.) I guess secondly would be the noise, though I'm sure with a little thinking I could remedy that to a great extent. But the saltspray...

Anyway, about the surge: I'd have to agree with you that getting the siphon to fully break is a big problem. I just tested some more setups, and a siphon break was the biggest limiting factor. It would never fully break, and the bucket would only get about 1/2 full before the siphon emptied it again. Even the 45 angle didn't solve this.

Just a thought, why not move the siphon break to the top of the U-bend on the siphon tube? Those that have to suck-start siphons (ie ME;)) know that as soon as the water gets over the "hump" so-to-speak and gets below the water line of the source container (in this case, a bucket) then introducing air will not break the siphon alone.

I believe that the drawing that pomme posted would be the best placement to ensure that the siphon is broken. Again, still haven't tried it - maybe later today or tomorrow - but it seems like the most logical place to put it.

[Brian Prestwood]

It is kind of depressing though, as I went out and bought all of the parts and supplies to make four of them.

When I make this kind of mistake I like to think of it as a lesson in patience. Always get your prototype working before making copies. :(

What's wrong with the parts you bought?

How do you keep your lighting from getting *completely* covered in salt?

My lights are about 6" above the water. They get covered in salt build up.

I have two sets of tempered glass covers for my MH lights. While one set is in the tank the other is soaking in diluted muriatic acid. I swap them out about once a week. That's the downside of surge buckets. When I move my tank I'm going to raise my lights up about a foot. This will decrease the light that reaches the tank but the simpler mainteance is worth it.

Just a thought, why not move the siphon break to the top of the U-bend on the siphon tube?

The clear version showed that when the siphon doesn't break cleanly and the siphon tube starts sucking air and water in you get a water fall effect over the top of the inverted sand trap (#7) into the exhaust side that intermitently "plugs" the top of the exhaust side of the siphon tube with water. That's why I ran the tube down to the bottom like that.

I never tried it on the top. You could glue a bit of 3/8" tubing at the top and try it. If it doesn't work just attach some vynal tubing inside so it runs down into the exhaust side of the siphon tube like mine.

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by Brian Prestwood
When I make this kind of mistake I like to think of it as a lesson in patience. Always get your prototype working before making copies. :(

What's wrong with the parts you bought?
Nothing, except that they cost around $40. I guess I do have some nice 2 1/2 gallon rubbermaid pails now, and an endless supply of PVC fittings. :)

That is unfortunate to hear about the saltspray. I absolutely hate doing maintenance and try to automate everything. I guess if I ever do this setup again I'll just use MHs pendants and hang them far above the tank. The money saved on using the surge devices instead of wavemakers and pumps would easily be worth it.

I just kick myself over these things though. It seems that there is ALWAYS some flaw or oversight in every single tank I set up. Oh well, they're getting a lot better each time around in terms of design and layout. One step closer to perfection. ;)

I guess on a good note, I will probably use at least one in my sump (of all places...:p). I think it will be a great way to kick up the detritus and keep everything clean down there! :)

[Brian Prestwood]

That is unfortunate to hear about the saltspray.

I set my exhaust tubes up high so they are hidden from view a bit. I suspect if you lowered the exhaust further (6" - 12") into the tank then the bubbles would dispurse more before surfacing. This should decrease the salt spray.

You could run them down the back of the aquarium and cover them with rocks.

However, lowering the exhaust tubes into the tank increases the back pressure which causes the water to rise higher in the bucket before the siphon starts. I suppose you could drill some small holes in the exhaust tube just below the water line.

One step closer to perfection.

When all else fails lower your expectations :)

[Brian Prestwood]

Here's a parts list...

Parts List (http://www.marineaquarist.org/Portals/9e47b9dd-73aa-4c61-8ad9-7eadcacbad35/SurgeBucketPartsList.htm)