Even an Idiot Can Automate top-off! 4-fold protection

[ostrow]

Ok I am not a DIY at all, don't do any carpentry, plumbing or anything. This took some thought, more for me than others I am sure, but it works.

Best, topoff with QUADROUPLE safety protection!

I'd been using 5G buckets, filling in my basement, hauling upstairs, and adding to my tank. About 1.5G per day. And it is water that is COLLLLDDDDD. 58deg F. last check. No wonder corals were getting shocked.

In Nov., anticipating holiday travel, I got a dual float switch from a guy here on RC (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268510&highlight=dual+float) and set up a 30G rubbermaid tub next to my tank with a pump attached to the float when I was travelling for 2 weeks.

But when I returned down to the basement went the rubbermaid tub. Who wants that in the living room? Tired of the hauling. So here's where I ended up.

1. Got the Spectrapure Liquid Level Controller (LLC) for a single tank.

2. Got 50ft of lamp cord and plugs

3. Got 50ft of RO tubing and 50ft of airline tubing

4. Got a self piercing saddle valve

5. Drilled hole in floor

6. Ran the airline tubing, cord and RO tubing along beams in the basement (still have to tack them up nice and hide them better).

7. Joined lengths of airline and ro tubing along the way as needed

8. Plugged booster pump into the LLC box, pluged LLC box into plug from the lamp cord.

9. John Guest doesn't make 3-way ball valves so here's what I did. Out of the carbon on the RO/DI, the tube runs to a T. Out of each end of the T is a shut off valve. From output A, the tubing goes as in the past, to the membrane. From B, tubing goes into and then out of the LLC box (all of this tubing I made black so I know easily which line is to the LLC). Out of the LLC it goes through a shut-off valve, and then to the membrane. In front of the membrane is another T, to receive water from either the bypass or the LLC. Normally, the "A" direction is off and the other two valves are on. If I need to mix salt, or fill a humidifier, or otherwise need RO/DI water for external use (not to sump), I shut off the valves to and from "B" and open "A". To do this I also need to plug my booster directly into the wall, not via the LLC. I put a union connector on my product water, so that if I can unplug one side, get my water, then plug it back in for topoff.
Hope this makes sense.

10. Connected airline tubing to LLC box. I had to cut a small piece of thier narrower tubing, join it to my normal airline tubing with a tubing connector, then plug their tubing into the LLC for tighter fit.

11. Turned off cold water supply at pipe I accessed from, installed self piercing saddle valve. I wet my pants almost. But this helps idiots like myself: http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infsad.shtm
Found it with a google search. On thing: before piercing the pipe, I connected the a shut-off valve, out of which tubing runs into my RO/DI. This way I have easy shut off for my RO/DI if I need to without turning off water to, in my case, the kitchen. Valve in off position when piercing.

12. With everything hooked up in basement and water line ready went to the tank. Used a dab of silicone to attach suction cups to sump wall, having scraped the side with a putty knife and dried the wall first. Slid the sensor tube, connected to the airline tubing running to the LLC, into the suction cup holder and into the water about 3/4 of the length submerged. Important: water level must be where you desire it to remain when hooking up.

13. Plugged lamp cord that runs to LLC box into my float switch.

14. Plugged product water into the LLC kit's safety float.

15. Repositioned my float switch and the safety float a bit higher than that in the sump.

16. Plugged in the float switch.

So how do I know it works? Used a bucket and cup to remove about 1.5" of water from the sump level. Nothing happened. But the product water must travel 50+ feet and go against gravity to the main floor. I waited. Went to basement to check, booster pump running, water filling DI chamber. In a minute or less, water was trickling into the tank. No leaks anywhere.

Quickly refilled sump with the salt water. Sure enough, the water shut off immediately when the original level was restored.

And, I have it all plugged into a dual float switch, and in case they both fail the LLC kit's sensor tube must show low water for water to enter the tank, and in case both the sensor tube and both floats fail, the kit's safety float attached to the product water is there. 4-fold protection against disaster.

Cost:
LLC kit: $80
dual float: $35
fittings: $20
tubing and cord: $20
valve: $10

Total: $165. Save $40 if you don't want the redundancy of my dual float (and the lampcord cost).

My bucket-hauling days are over. Except for water changes and adding salt water.

[ostrow]

Here's the saddle valve, yellow into shut off, white tubing runs to RO/DI unit

[ostrow]

This pic shows airline tubing in LLC, white RO tubing from the saddle valve into the booster, black out of booster into the RO/DI, and a mess of tubing and valves after the carbon and before the membrane.

[ostrow]

here

[ostrow]

LLC plugged into the float extension cord (booster pump plugs into LLC) nicely hidden in secret door above dryer (that's as far as that door opens!) Behind the plug you can barely make out a white ac adapter ... that's for the booster pump, which I'd need to use to make water for other purposes when I bypass hte LLC.

[ostrow]

Product water with connector, waste water with flush valve

[ostrow]

why not?

[Zephrant]

Very nice setup!

Have you found the booster pump to be loud? I have two, one is loud enough to hear two floors away, the other is not bad.

Zeph

[ostrow]

silent as can be.

[JAGreef]

looks good

[AnnArborBuck]

Have you found the booster pump to be loud?

Your booster pump should be somewhat quiet. I would be worried that you may be losing the pump if it is that loud. Possibly the bearing??

ostrow, nice work. That saddle valve sure made it easier I am sure.

[jbash]

Hey Joel. Nice job!

However nothing is foolproof:-) If I understand correctly your system would fail, as mine did recently, if return is somehow clogged. What happened to mine after return was slowed down (not completeley stopped) by snail caught in elbow of return, is that the pump in sump would keep pumping and the tank overflowed, the RO water kept refilling sump and by the time we got home from a weekend trip the specific gravity (salinity) was down from 1.025 to 1.018. This was in the 60 grow out that you've seen (in the basement, fortunately so no water damage).

Am I wrong in thinking your failsafes would not have caught this? Of course the key is not letting the return get clogged and I thought I had that covered:-)

Again, nice job. None of the above a criticism, just recent experience.

jim b

[ostrow]

What return are you referring to? That's the only part I don't get in your note. But I am sufficiently terrified...

But to answer your question, if the sump level goes low, the ro will continue to refill.

If my overflow U-tube were to clog, stopping flow to the sump, but my return pump continued to run, yes, I'd be screwed. Wonder if it is possible to rig a "shut off after 20min no matter what" safety but have no idea how to do that!!!

[igge68]

u can put a level switch in main tank that shut down return pump if water level get´s to high

[jbash]

Joel-No reason to be terrified(unless your spouse has a real mean temper:-) I'm talking about the return (gravity flow) pipe from the main tank back to the sump (typically behind an overflow, often with durso standpipe or some such).

Igge68 is right, putting a switch on the main tank would solve this problem. However I don't use switches (thought I was avoiding problems), just a Kent floatvalve--thought keeping it simple and mechanical was less trouble prone as I've had trouble with float switches failing (actually a cold solder joint in something I bought, I think) or getting stuck.

Also I go back to my premise--nothing is foolproof. We keep building better mousetraps but something can always go wrong. And somebody's law says it will happen when we aren't home (I'd call it Bash's Law but I'm sure this isn't original:-)

jim b

[ostrow]

So Jim did your floatvalve fail?

I only have about 1/4" between the water line and the lip of the tank, that doesn't seem like enough room for either a switch or a valve. Hmmm...

[Mikeydog]

jbash - The simple fact is, on these auto-topoff systems we are just trying to make life easier and better for us and our tank residents.. I was in the same boat as Ostrow (hauling water everyday to the tank to top off) what a pain. So now I have a totally automated system. Not a totally full proof system. But the time it saves me is enormous, plus my tank is more stable since an once or two of fresh water is added anytime the float switch trips, instead of 2 gallons of fresh water every night (screwing up temp and salinity). Anyway you take the good with the bad. If the overflow gets plugged your still screwed, because the tank will overflow and then you could burn up your pump, and you may also burn up other things such as UV sterilizer etc. So you just have to realize that by me having this system it doesn't excuse me from daily maint and check. But it does make my life easier to enjoy my tank more. And I am more then willing to take the good with the bad. And the fish have told me they enjoy it too.

Thanks

[ostrow]

Yeah, but when travelling, I'd rather have pumps burn out and livestock die than have tank fall through floor to living room and massive damage to structure of house...on top of the equipment and livestock loss.

So life is easier, but now the risk when gone is greater...

[Mikeydog]

Once again though, if your overflow gets clogged and your not there you are going to dump a lot of water on the floor (depending on sump size) regardless of an auto top off system. Plus burn up pumps and such..

The auto top off can be made more safe very simply by adding a timer to the top off pump. Only allow it to pump for like 5 or 10 minutes every other hour or whatever. It doesn't solve the problem but can make it safer.

Obviously the real way to fix the problem is to throw money at it and setup a second set of float switches on the tank it'self to kill the return pump if the water gets to high. And another float switch in the sump to kill the autotop off if the water gets to high in there..

You can fix anything with money

[ostrow]

I got the sump high problem fixed if you read about my dual-float switch. But the tank high to kill the return I can't see. No room in the main at the top for a float that I can see.

[jbash]

If I were to put a float switch in the main tank I'd consider doing it _behind_ the overflow. In that case I could even put it lower than the tank level. Don't know if you have room back there but is a thought. That won't work for me as nothing in my system is electric, but it would work for you (as Igge68 first suggested).

Joel & MikeyDog. I understand the attempt to make life easier and I still use my topoff system. I think I was mainly responding to Joel's "4-fold protection" in subject line by saying things can and will go wrong occassionally no matter how hard we try to foolproof them!

[ostrow]

Yes, Jim, I fully understand your line of discussion here in that light. Thanks. What do you mean nothing is electric in your system? I saw pumps. You have Tunzes.

What good would a float do lower htan the tank level? The problem you describe indicates a waterline rising and rising. If the switch is already below the waterline it will never detect this.

What is needed is somehting that will trip off the pump if the water hits it.....not sure what that would be.

[MadTownMax]

Ostrow-
Just to get this straight, you did all of this to automate top-off, but you're still running a U-tube overflow instead of drilling the bottom of your tank? what happens when the siphon fails (power outage)?

Jbash- I use one of those plastic screen tubes on my durso (the kind sold with AGA overflow kits - kinda like plastic wire mesh in a tube form - it avoids those sneaky snails.

FWIW I just rigged up a nurce-style topoff for my tank - it has to be gravity fed but i just keep it next to my tank as the make-up water resevoir will have a sufficient height for it to work for about a week between re-fills with just a couple $$ invested in some rigid air-line tubing and some things I had laying around....

if I really want to get fancy I might hook my RO unit up to the make-up water container on a float, with some redundancy using a solenoid on an emergency float switch in my sump to turn-off the RO if the water level gets too high, but for now it serves it's purpose quite well and as far as I can tell it is fool-proof.

[ostrow]

can't drill a tank that is already filled. siphon hasn't failed yet with power off (pump stops, nothing to siphon) or when power goes back on (siphon kicks back in). i've heard people say it happens. but i've had power off as long as an hour no problem.

[katchupoy]

Why not just put the float switch on the last chamber where the return pump is.

Meaning. If the u-tube clogs up, water will go to the main tank. But the water will be coming from the last chamber of your sump (I hope you have different baffles/chambers).

So you will say, that the displacement will be filled up RO supply..
You are correct, but if it is a 1 gallon a day drip system then before you know it.... the last chamber will be out of water and it will trigger the float switch to turn it off. Then it will activate again as soon as the water comes back again from the main tank.

This will be an on or off thing but at least still safer than flooding your house.

Bottomline... you will have two float switch on your last chamber...

One (the higher) float switch or float valve.

Second (the lower) will turn off the pump if the water becomes lower than that.

So maybe 1 inch of height diff from the upper and the lower switch will do.

What do you think?

[ostrow]

Your hope is a no ... my sump is a 20G tank no dividers. :(

[katchupoy]

maybe its time to put one that will act as a dam. very easy to do... and you can without affecting the main tank.

So is this just a sump for heater? how about skimmer? or somethin....

you need the baffles to at least control the bubbles...

[jbash]

Joel-
When I said "not electrical" I was referring to my topoff system. All is gravity fed based on float valve in sump that opens when water level gets low. Water in sump gets low if water flows out of main tank due to clogged overflow! I did have a screen on the overflow but took it off as it was getting clogged due to an algae problem. I thought pipe was covered with a piece of eggcrate but it obviously didn't work:-)

jim

[ostrow]

So Jim how have you fixed that? Or haven't you?
Katchup I have in there heater, pump, skimmer, and b-ionic dosing. Bubbles aren't huge problem. Skimmer won't fit if I put in baffles.

[jbash]

My only 'fix' was to change the screening over the overflow. It is now something I found at a lumber yard for keeping leaves out of gutters.

jim

[ostrow]

But that can still get gunked up, right? You have to clean it frequently?

[katchupoy]

I think the two switch config can still work even without using baffles.

1) On your sump. Make a mark or a line where it will show the level of the water. Make sure that this is the optimal level you want. If not, then you should drip water on the sump to reach this optimum level point. I said optimum because some skimmers are sensitive to water level. So you should base this relative to your skimmer.

2) This will be the level for your first switch that will control the pump from your RO reservoir. (This is not the return pump).

3) Still in the sump.... Try to slowly stop the water flow COMING from the main tank. This means the RETURN. This will slowly increase the water level in your MAIN TANK. And will also decrease the water level in your sump.

4) Wait until the water level on your main tank is almost full.... ALMOST might means 1/4 inch before to overflow or something.... you know what i mean.... And try to make another mark on your sump.

5) This will be the location of the second switch that will control the RETURN PUMP. When the water reach this (LOW) level, the pump should stop.

6) Since you dont have any baffles in your sump. The difference between the two marks that you did might be little to a point that it might be as little as 1/4" inch. If you can adjust the water level on your main tank by lowering your overflow. This will give you more room for adjustments between the normal water level and critical water level.

[ostrow]

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH. The float controlling the return pump can be in the sump. Yah, yah, yah. Veil lifting from my eyes, and all.

But I think I still see a problem. My topoff goes into the sump. So ok, the lower switch kicks off the pump. But then the topoff kicks in on the low level and fills the sump. Pump goes back on. Water over the top of tank. Sump level drops, pump off, topoff on, pump on, and on and on.....

[katchupoy]

Yes, but make sure that your top off is regulated... meaning drip system like for example 1.5 gallon a day....

So there is a delay. It is not as fast as it empties. By the time it drips 10 times per instance (example 1 drop per second so it takes 10 seconds for the water from the main tank to fill up the sump again so you have 10 drops everytime the pump goes off) of low water level.... the water coming from the main tank already filled the sump.... I hope it make sense...

And remember that this is just a snail slowing down your return flow and not actually stopping them... but in any case it will still stop the pump even if the snail where able to plug it 100%

So the only issue to you the is the main pump turning on or off.

I think I can live with that instead your main tank overflowing and being diluted because of top-off.

What do you think?

[ostrow]

Perhaps. I am not filling a reservoir with a pump but using a Spectrapure Level Controller that connects directly to the water supply. But the principle is the same. I don't see how this setup can be set up to limit the water amount per day to the sump. But I'll ponder that.

[katchupoy]

What about adding a control valve between somewhere.... question...

can you tell me the process of water input ... I mean

source-> RO -> etc.etc. etc.

[ostrow]

I can't say much more than is on my initial post. RO/DI output goes to the sump, when the solenoid opens when sump level drops, water trickles in. I am noticing that the gizmo is fairly sensitive. Water drop is not noticable to the eye to trip the float. Level stays pretty constant. When it is on it is on for maybe a minute or two tops.

I think my best bet is some sort of a safety float that can power a Mag7 pump that is normal on, switches off when float rises. I can rig a mount so the float is horizontal over the tank rim, when water lifts it, it would shut off the pump.

But I don't know if such a float exists.

[ostrow]

Ok, now this is weird. I'm worried too. So apropos the bubbles and baffle issue. I had an idea to fix something that wasn't broken. There were a few bubbles, not many, but I decided to try for zero.

I have this acrylic cylinder. It was doing really nothing, was surrounding the pvc pipe entering the sump. It is about 10" diameter and about 10" tall. So I unplugged my Mag7, removed the cylinder, moved it to where the mag was and plopped the mag inside it, with the hose back to the main tank running up. Figured that would insulate the mag from skimmer bubbles.

Ok, plug the Mag back in, and what happens? Water level in the main is now slightly above the center bar. Not over the rim, but right at the rim, around the edges. Maybe 1/8" gap or less. Previously the level was maybe 1/2 to 3/4 below the rim.

So, why would this happen? I removed the Utube, cleaned, restarded the siphon, banged it to remove air trapped in the tube, sucked in more water, turned off and on again. All to no avail. Still right on the center bar.

Hmmm... ideas? Lowered the overflow box a tad but that did nothing to lower the water level. I'm lost.

[katchupoy]

try to remove again the cylinder and see what happens

[ostrow]

that would be weird

[shellym]

.