Return with SCWD on my 360 bad idea? Help!

[Bluecheese]

I am about to put my plumbing together on my AGA 360, It is 12 feet long, and 24x30 ,it has two overflows (bottom drilled) and four more drilled holes (2 on the bottom and 2 on the side) that I plan to use for closed loops.

I was just reading the SCWD thread below and it was mentioned that SCWD would not do as well in a bigger tanks, so I wondered if I would be ok by hooking up two of them.

Here is a diagram of my plumbing.
The pump for the SCWD is a Dolphin rated at 4500 GPH
The closed loops would be on one Iwaki 70 RLT.

I'd like to know from experience what people would recommend-adjust-do or not do on this before I seal this concept with PVC cement..

Thanks
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/18938360_Plumbing.jpg

[capescuba]

360! Wow, and I thought my new 210 was huge ..

I am also looking into using SCWD, but from what I have read, I am waiting for the new bigger version to come out. They have a 1" version coming out sometime this qtr, and I am planning to use 2 of them in my AG returns.

I have attaced a pic. Do you havce the Mega Flow overflows in that tank? I am hoping the scwd will fit in the overflow ....

[reef-man_d-man]

for something that big 3 might be best, I have one for a 55 and its not enough

[harr3826]

you could do a surge tank if you have room above the tank.
just a thought that is what i did on my new 75 reef

[Bluecheese]

Capescuba,
I have only one hole with my overflow, and the glass is tempered so no drilling !! so I was thinking about keeping the SCWD outside eventhough the overflows are quite spacious I have to admit.

reef-man
3 SCWD,Woaa well that's an idea I did not even contemplate. Maybe I'll start with 2 and go up from there if I am not satisfy. if you look at the diagrams above, I have flow coming from the sides from the two closed loops and then the 2 SCWDs in the middle (which makes a total of 2+4=6 inflow). SO Combined I would think it would generate a fair amount of motion....But ...until it runs , you never know

harr 3826
what is a surge tank? Do you have a pic of your tank?

[MarkS]

SQWD's have a max rating of 1400 GPH. Even taking into account the head loss and the fact that you're cutting the output in half, the Dolphin pump is going to overpower the SQWD's.

[Clyde]

ok..

i'm surprised you're even looking at a SWCD

you have a PREMIUM tank, dont use cheap stuff.

seaswirls are your best bet, 3 - 3/4 or 1 inchers, and you can push as much as you want.

thats my 2 cents,

[Bluecheese]

Good point Mark S, my bad on the pump it is rated at 3600, still it is above 2xSCWD rating, but I could adjust the flow down with a valve...?

I agree with you clyde, (you hit my weak spot I) the SeaSwirls sound like they would be the best. I have seen them work and they do seem to work great. I have heard only good things about them, and teh same for the SCWD (except for the flow limit mentioned above) . I have a SCWD on my 75 and it works great, my corals love it.

However at about $180 a piece we are talking $360 for 2 SeaSwirls vs $75 for 2 SCWD., I really want to hear more about reefers who have used both or one and help me make the choice between the two.

The other question would be where would you then put the SeaSwirl ? on the closed loops? My understanding is that the S-Swirls hang over the frame, and are not completely submersible? or are they?

If you look at the diagram, the overflows divide the tank into 3 compartments. So where would you put the 2 seaswirls in order to cover most of the tank? It would be dififcult to put them in either of the corners as the tank is closed /reinforced with a glass cover/brace on each side as well as in the middle, So there are only two locations that are open to add someting hanging on the glass. That is where I put the SCWD. Except that in my diagram I have one pipe going to the right of the overflow and one to the left so that it covers center and corners.

I am open to the best solution, I just want to justify the $ (if not to myself, at least to the woman waiting for me with a shotgun at home....) :rolleye1:

Thanks for the input, this is good, it really helps....I am listening...

[wetworx101]

this is from another thread asking pretty much the same Q, just on a 180...hope you like my solution. Otherwise a 1.5" SCWD is due later this year if you can wait....

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=311033

otherwise you are going to be looking into actuated 3-way valves ($400) by spears or hayward...custom aquatic has them...

or, www.oceansmotions.com has prolly the most brilliant concept I have seen. The possible flow patterns their valves can create are really cool.

[MarkS]

You could cut the flow with a valve.

However, I agree with Clyde. It's also important to state that SeaSwirls are more reliable than SCWD's. I've heard many stories of SCWD's cracking.

I'd personally go with the device from Oceans Motions (www.oceansmotions.com).

[pyro383]

try to hold out for now until the larger squids come along

[macdo1sl]

Bluecheese,

I feel your pain with this decision. I am looking for the same advice for my 180. I posted the other thread that is referred to. I was originally going to add a closed loop to my tank.

The closed loop uses close to the full potential of the pump since there is much less head pressure. Also, I'm sure you already know that the intake pressure offsets the output pressure of the pump. I like the fact that the closed loop can have intakes behind the rock work for increased circulation. I realize you don't want to drill for this.

However, right now I want to save money and just use a SQWD or SeaSwirl with my return pump. I'm still kind of leaning towards two SQWDs. Luckily my tank is Acrylic and I can drill the holes that I'll need.

Good Luck!

[Bluecheese]

Wetworx 101, that sounds pretty cool...would you get a similar effect by connecting 3 SCWDs and having only 4 out put ?

That 4-8 rotary valve from oceanmotions looks interesting. Any one has tried it? I called them and it does sound really great, but a little more spendy, $199 for a 4 ways, $379 for a 8 ways and $29 for each Revolution you want to add. However this would definitely get all the flow I need. He recommended to run it on the closed loops. Paul was really helpful, he actually explained to me all about it as my questions kept pouring. We even compared it to the seaswirl...it definitely is much more versatile... He refered to SCWDs as cheap designed to break (as a few have already mentioned above)......
So here is a new one for me, the ROTARY. But is this OVERKILL...? .I guess if you have the means nothing is too good., especially since I will put SPS in that tank....Paul said he received about 400 e-mail and he will shoot-up a video so that people can see how it works..would be good...

Macdo1 sl, yes I saw you had the same problem. We are on the same boat. The bottom line is that this is not a cheap hobby. Good for you to be able to drill....I do not have that option
I am having doubts about the SCWDs NOW...ALTHOUGH LIKE YOU I am thinking they might be a good temporary solution..until the big one arrives or I go for a swirl or teh Rotary from oceanmotion to get the flow I want...

SCWDs...People have mentioned they break..so what exactly happen when they break... do they just behave like a regular connector and stop oscillating, or do they start leaking? I know they are fairly new on the market but do we know what their life expectancy is (of course I suspect it would depend on how they are used) ? Mine is almost 1 year old and still ticking.

Would like to hear more pros and cons about those 3 systems
SCWD-Sea Swirl- Rotary

[wetworx101]

You know, I like eating Blue Cheese, but in the context of the reef...is that some gross deep sea turd or something? :p

Now, with four outlets and three SCWDs, your outside two returns would have the notmal pattern...but the inner two would get alternating flow from the middle SCWD as well as the outer two. This could work rather well, but as we add more outlets and
SCWDs in we might see less wave action from the mid-section. See, the inner returns (in this case, the middle two) would not only get the alternating output of the outer units, but also the inner SCWDs returns. As far as timing goes, that means on one side of the inner two returns, one SCWD could be 'going down' as another could be 'going up'. This would mean that the flow would remain constant. The real bonus is if they are in sync and both come on and go off at about the same time, providing a double surge as well as then a total calm for the middle area of the tank. And then there are all the possible positions that the SCWDs could be in beyond this. So, it is a mixed response. The law of averages would say 50% of the time yes, 50% no. Of course the two SCWDs could be run with different flows in each to ensure their flows never match up to cancel each other out. So, yeah, breaking up the return flows and then recombining them to give more chaotic return velocities could be done with any number of outlets. Something even cooler, as you get more SCWDs might be to actually run four outlets off of three of four SCWDs, with uneven return piping so that on one side you might have 3 normal SCWD returns from one half of every SCWD, but on the remaining return, run the other half of the SCWDs together to give it a real crazy flow pattern. Law of averages would say than 66% of the time, one SCWD would go off as another one or two might come on, so the output of this one return might only vary from 1x-2x, but 33% of the time, all three could be putting water out to that return for a super surge!...and following lull.

As for the Rotary, you must be referring to the 'revolution' part Paul is referring to. You know how the spring system works in an ink pen? You know, there is a set of notches that the central cylinder matches up with when it is either pressed up or down, but every time it gets pushed up or down, a the pegs are arranged to allow the pen to stay retracted or exposed? The same system can be used in a reverse application. Instead of the twist motion of the pen providing a way for it to stay open or closed...the on/off flow from a pump provides the same 'clicky-clicky' device as a pen, but in this case, it is used to rotate the output of the outlet. Simple really. These revolutions are designed to float. When flow is provided to one of them (via central 4 or 8 way valve) the heads that float are pushed down under the water surface by the water pressure...this motion causes the outlet to rotate 45degrees (the pen-like mechanism) and stay there as long as it has flow. When the flow goes down again, the water presure is gone...and the revolution retracts above the water again. When the water comes back on the process starts again, pushing the head down into the water, forcing it to index another 45degrees...and on....and on...and on...until the outlet does a total 180 again again and again...
The little 'revolution' heads can also be filled with sand to make them heavy, and then plumbed through the floor of the tank. Then the heads pop up every time water goes to them...as otherwise they are too heavy and retract downward. The thing it for me, yeah, it's cool, but how long will these revolutions work before they get corroded with salt and quit moving (get stuck in the on position)? It would seem not too long as those heads are constantly moving in and out of the water...making them a great place for salt&mineral buildup. And on top of that, as much as I can appreciate good flow, having these little revolution heads constantly popping in and out of the water would get on my nerves...as well as the critters. Can you imagine the reactions of the fish as one of those things pops out at them? I also prefer open top aquariums with pendants, so having piping and all that equipment hanging over the tank would totally muck it up. Besides, having varying flow is good enough for me, and changing the direction every time doesnt seem to be as big an issue...as in nature...wave patterns stay in pretty much the same direction 24/7...they just go back and forth andf maybe a little lull in between if anything. Those surges never change direction.

On SCWDs and reliability: I have been using one for at least a year or two now without a problem. Then again, mine are just on 600gph returns at most...not 800, 1000, or 1200gph. I think at those higher speeds they tend to wear out alot faster (as that central screw-drive that drives the outlet port mechanism can get spun too fast for it's own good)...it is only plastic after all. For some others, they run SCWDs on pumps with rather high head pressure. Now, SCWDs are just little cast pieces, so to help it out, dont attach it down in the sump right as it comes out of the pump...this is where pressure is highest! Attach it closer to the surface of the water to reduce pressure in it's internals! Otherwise you might have a pump with little enough pressure to not hurt the SCWD, but add in the head pressure, and sure enough...it'll blow!! And since I mentioned it, sometimes people are not following the pressure restrictions at all. Sure, their pump might only pump 1200gph, but with 20PSI!!! Poor SCWDy.
I think they are pretty reliable. Just dont crank them with high pressure or flow and you should be fine. Oh, and always use them with a pre-filter on the pump! Those gears are exposed on the inside...all it takes is a stray piece of macro to render it useless!

[Bluecheese]

Thanks wetworx...lots of details and clarifications on each system.

Here is the original thread that semingly led to the planning , design and birth? of the oceanmotions device that you explained so well: Plan for motion device (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135278)

I actually started to put it together when I saw that the guy who was designing it was Paul...although I thought it was a coincidence...until the thread got to a week ago or so...

You make some good points about the drawbacks of the Revolution...I guess the system's longevity has not been tested by enough people yet...but I like the idea of having 4-8 lines distributed all over my tank...which is my main issue. The tank is split in three parts so I need at least 3 inflows...2 swirls would not cover one of the area..so I would need to add a third one...that gets as expensive as the oceanmotion

As it was pointed out using the SCWD (even 3 or 4) on my 3600 GPH pump would probably be a waste of my nice pump since I would have to decrease the outflow from the pump if I don't want my SCWDs to turn into stir fry :smokin:

I was wondering if anyone has thought of using an oscillating sprinkler system equivalent as a DIY spraybar/wavemaker. Are those parts available for purchase?

I still need to put more thoughts into this...

[capescuba]

Originally posted by Bluecheese
I was wondering if anyone has thought of using an oscillating sprinkler system equivalent as a DIY spraybar/wavemaker. Are those parts available for purchase?

I still need to put more thoughts into this...

Yes - This has been around for years ....

http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/diysprinkler.htm

[Bluecheese]

Thanks, great link, it looks pretty simple....and cheap

Is anyone actually using that design and is happy with it ? Issues?

[capescuba]

I thought about trying, but I spent last year installing the irrigation in my new home, and I know just how much pressure is needed to operate the sprinklers, so I wasn't too sure it would be feasible. I never really went and did much investigation though.

[Bluecheese]

I just found this (http://www.marinedepot.com/a_wm_oceancurrent.asp?CartId=) and it looks like a compromise between the SCWD and the Sea Swirl with some variations..

Has anyone heard or tried it?

[ClarkiiClownfish]

I have a simple and stupid question.

SCWD's are placed outside the tank, whereas, SeaSwirls are only applicable for inside the tank use.
Is this correct?

I was waiting for the larger version of SCWD's to come out, as I have too much flow for what they have out now.
And I dont want SeaSwirls twisting and turning on top of my tank.
Not to mention I have 4 inlets, so I will need 4 SeaSwirls, and that will cost a LOT.

I have never seen a SeaSwirl in person. I can only assume by the pictures I have seen of them is they are only to be used INSIDE the tank, and not outside, like the SCWD can be.

EDIT!!!

I just realized that I had SeaSwirls and Ocean Currents (link in the post above) mixed up. SeaSwirls are only for mounting on the tank rim and are NOT submersible. I have a drilled tank with 4 inlets. I am wanting to do some type of wave-maker action device like the SCWD, but as I said, I have too much flow for that.

Can the Ocean Currents be used outside the tank, or are they only for in-tank use???
Is there anything out there on the market for my application?
Thank you.

[joefitz]

I've been running a few SCWDs for about 8 months now without incident. I've heard a lot of people bash them but my experience with them has been great.

I just got my 330 up and I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do about flow just yet. One of the ideas I'm tossing around is using a manifold to split my pump return from 1.5" into eight 3/4" outlets -- that is how my system is currently plumbed. I think I'm going to try using six or seven SCWDs (one of the 3/4" outlets feeds my refugium). I hear a lot of people make the "you have a premo system, don't use something cheap" but I just don't buy into that argument.

Just because something is cheap doesn't mean it isn't good/effective.

What we all care about is chaotic water motion right? I would think you could accomplish that pretty well with a handful of SCWDs.

The other posters have already mentioned that you would need more SCWDs... Two wouldn't be nearly enough in my opinion. Even if you go with the larger versions due out later this year -- do you want to just pump 1"+ outlets of water into your tank? I'd probably still choose to split the return and feed more 3/4" SCWDs. I'm not looking for a jet-stream out of my tubing after all.

I've got a sea-swirl. They are big and bulky and difficult to mount if you have bracing around the top of your tank. Don't get me wrong, I really like what they do, and I'm hoping be able to use the ones I have in my new system, but they don't provide the same flexibility that the SCWD does. I'd rather not view it as a SCWD vs Sea-Swirl argument because I think they each give me different things.

The oceanmotion system is quite interesting but I have issues with that device too. My biggest issue is again that I'd rather have my 1.5" return(s) come into the tank simultaneously from more than just two 1" ports. I'd also be interested to find out how much backpressure the unit adds to the system because two 1" ports can't support a 1.5" input. That said, I still think this product is very interesting and I'm very excited to see where the company takes it. I have high hopes for that device.

I also highly recommend looking into the possibility of using a surge tank as the flow resulting from those devices is just phenomonal -- from the devices I've seen, the flow is better than what you'll produce from any of these other contraptions. Surge devices do have drawbacks: a) you have to build it, b) if you want it quiet and bubbleless, it most likely won't be cheap, c) your sump has to be able to handle the water volume of the surge (plus the max water volume at power-off, so if you are tight on sump volume then you probably can't implement a surge).

Good luck with your tank!

Joe

[Bluecheese]

Joefitz,
thanks for the reply...and for your inputb on the seaswirl and SCWD....probably doing what you suggest would work for me. Right now I am planning to put 4x 1 " for the time being and position some on top and some at mid level of teh tank. I'll replumb when I decide on the system SCWDs/oscillators/Swirl. I don't care oif I ahve 4 x1" or 6-8x 3/4" unless it affects dramatically teh health and wave motion in teh tank.

My main issue is to get some motion in most of the dead spots of the tank. And because of those 2 huge overflows, I have 8 of them. I am looking at that oscillator from Marine Depot I posted above and it looks interesting. I'd like to know more about it from people who have used it, as it looks it would do exactly waht I need, wave motion and circular motion.

I am not sure how a Surge tank works. I read a thread of someone who built one, but I didnot quite get the priniciple...can you tell me more about what it does?

Clarkiiclownfish
Did you take a lok at that device from Marine Depot above, it loks like you have the same issues I have.

[Clyde]

why dont you check out those new wavemakers type of things ?

http://www.oceansmotions.com/

discussion here

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2399732#post2399732

[joefitz]

A surge device is basically a tank/bucket that sits above the waterline of your main tank and dumps water into your main tank. The effect is very chaotic water movement each time the device is activated (depending upon how to structure the flow into your tank it could easily be a wave)...which seems to be what we are often trying to simulate in our tanks.

There are many different designs and they each have their own pros/cons...you can search on "surge" and probably find a bunch of links to them. There is a popular one that has been relatively active over the last month or two about a quiet, bubbleless one but that design requires a motorized ball valve which is a bit pricey.

The basic design is pretty simple though. Put a tank/bucket above the waterline of your main tank. Drill two holes in it: one that will allow the water to drain from the tank into your display tank and the other to act as an overflow so if the device isn't activated when the tank/bucket is full for some reason, it won't flood, the water will simply drain back down to the sump or overflow chamber of your main tank.

Then you use a powerhead or pump to fill the tank/bucket. The last requirement is a way to trigger the opening of the surge drain tube (the first hole I mentioned above) -- to get the water from the surge tank into the display tank. There are different ways to accomplish this but floats valves, like those used in toilets are a common option. In fact, many people use a toilet float valve (available from any hardware store)...

So, you pump water into the tank. It fills. When it gets high enough, the float mechanism opens the drain tube and the water flows down the tube and into your display tank. If the float mechanism fails for some reason, the water will flow into the 2nd hole via a standpipe, so the surge bucket won't overflow.

The trick to them is making them quiet and bubbleless.

They do create fanstastic water movement though, even in large tanks with relatively small surge buckets.

I hope this gives you a better idea of what they are...

Joe

[lilbuddy]

bluecheese,
If you want to do sea swirls get in touch with me. I will help you as much as I can :-)