baffles - getting them in place securely

[johns]

I'm going to use a 30G AGA tank for the sump/fuge. I'm going to get glass baffles cut to size to partition off a fuge and them add a bubble trap before the return section. I have some questions about securing the glass baffles inplace.

1- If I measure the inside width of the tank, should I tell them to cut the glass to EXACTLY that dimension, or do you suspect I'll need to reduce it by 1/8" or so to get them in fit in place.

2- How can I work with getting the silicone in place for the series of 3 baffles that are only about an inch apart from each other (the bubble trap)? Do both sides of the baffles need to have silicone for them to stay in place? Should I just lay a line of silicone down onto the side of the tank for the inside edges first, then put the baffle in place and silicone the outer side? The only problem I see there is that I still cant smooth the silicone out on the inner side once the baffles are in place - I dont know if that's really a necessity?

3- A while back someone mentioned glueing 1" wide strips of acrylic onto the side of the tank first, then adding the baffles right up against the acrylic strips. I forgot who it was. But that seems like a neat idea. What type of glue would you use for this? And then once again, the silicone - should I add a bead of silicone along both edges of the acrylic strip, then put the baffle in place?

4- As an alternate to this - do you think you could just glue the acrlic stips in place and leave a little 1/4" gap between them to just sort of slide the glass baffles into place, without using silicone at all?

Thanks

[YYZ_125G]

1- I used 1/8" plexi and had it cut to fit. One nice thing about plexi is you can file it if needed.

2- I have a 30 gallon sump/fuge I needed 3" for my bubble trap weirs. I could silicon them by hand.

3- I just used silicon for glue but you need to sand the edges for it to stick well to the acrylic.

4- good idea but may be more work.

Good idea to only tack the bubble traps in place and test run for bubble trap performance and proper water height in sump when power is off of tank.

There are some pics of my sum/fuge at this thread.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288531

[johns]

YYZ-

I had been told that it was tough to get acrylic to stick to glass using silicone. That's why I was considering glass for the baffles. Do you know anything about that?

Do you mean you needed 3" between each baffle for the buble trap? Because if mine were that far aprt from each other it would kind of ruin my design. I need to get them closer together to have enough roon for everything in my sump. Unless I can go with maybe 2 baffles for the buble trap. i dont know how that would work though.

[YYZ_125G]

Yes, I needed 3" between the partitions. I started at an inch and the micro bubbles blew right through. I have 600gph going through each trap you won't need the full 3" if your flow is lower.

To get the silicon to stick I sanded 1/2" in from the edge to rough up the acrylic. I didn't do that the first time and the silicon didn't stick well. That was ok because I had to tear the partitions apart and spread them out to 3". Now they work good, I also put sponge and bluebond filter to catch the detritus and some Poly Pad for chemical reduction in the weirs.

[rhiggsbear]

YYZ_125G

Have you ever thought about posting up some drawing on how to make your stand? How the doors work, etc????

What kind of woord did you use? What did you use as a finish?

Everytime I am ready to dive in and build my stand, some new pops up and makes me go WOW!!! :D

[johns]

Originally posted by YYZ_125G
Yes, I needed 3" between the partitions. I started at an inch and the micro bubbles blew right through. I have 600gph going through each trap you won't need the full 3" if your flow is lower.

To get the silicon to stick I sanded 1/2" in from the edge to rough up the acrylic. I didn't do that the first time and the silicon didn't stick well. That was ok because I had to tear the partitions apart and spread them out to 3". Now they work good, I also put sponge and bluebond filter to catch the detritus and some Poly Pad for chemical reduction in the weirs.

YYZ-

My flow wont be as much, so I'm going to assume that the micro bubbles wont blow through. I'd still like to keep them 1" apart to keep my design the same. And seeing as how your WERE 1" apart at first, I still have to ask you...how did you get the silicone in between baffles that are only 1" apart??? Is there like some sort of thin applicator to use? I'm sure I cant get my hand down there.

And also, was there any other special reason why you chose to use acrylic for the baffles on a glass tank? I mean, it sounds like the acrylic would be a bit extra work, seeing as how you need to rough it up to make it work. Was there a special reason not to just use glass?

[steve68]

i use 100% GE silicone from HD on all my sumps to hold
acrylic baffles in place the only way to get them off is with a razor after they dry & u defenetly need at least 2 1/2 between the baffles or u will push the bubbles right through

[johns]

Can I get more opinions on this.

Specifically:

What's the best ay to glue approx. 1" strips of acrylic to glass (to facilitate the placement of baffles)?

What's the best way to get silicone in tight to reach spaces (like between baffles in a bubble trap)?

Is my design really flawed for having bubble-trap baffles 1" apart? The total length of the sump is going to be 36", and there's a 12" in sump fuge between the drain/skimmer and the bubble trap before the return line. I really didn't think the bubbles would make it that far.

[johns]

^

[thedogofwar]

FWIW, I used the perfecto silicon from PetSmart and it holds just fine w/o any type of surface prep besides cleaning. I can lift the 10G sump by a single baffle and had troubles removing the baffles from the failed first design.

I siliconed both sides of the baffles where I could but some only got it on 1 side. I considered attaching an airline to get to the tough spots but never did.

1" spacing is pushing it with just about any GPH IMO. 1.5" @450GPH and I still had probs.

[srfndoc]

Is the space between the baffles really limiting the amount of water that can flow through them? I've seen some pretty large sumps with baffles 1"-1.5" apart that are flowing well over 800gph.

Steve68 - what does the container look like on the silicone you are buying and are you sure it's reef safe. That has to be alot cheaper than 'aquarium safe' silicone. Also, your saying you only silicone your baffles on one side and they are still strong enough?

Thanks,

Todd

[thedogofwar]

Originally posted by tbooher
Is the space between the baffles really limiting the amount of water that can flow through them? I've seen some pretty large sumps with baffles 1"-1.5" apart that are flowing well over 800gph.
sump width will play a huge role in this. in addition, we're not saying that the flow is restricted, just that it's velocity keeps the microbubbles suspended in the water column. Find a way to eliminate the formation of the bubbles or stop them before they reach the traps and you can use 1". I added a LR chamber at the inlet and it works great.


Originally posted by tbooher

Also, your saying you only silicone your baffles on one side and they are still strong enough?

Thanks,

Todd

mine are plenty strong enough done one sided.

[johns]

What about putting a 12" fuge in between the drain/skimmer and return compartment - wouldn't that do anything to help eliminate the bubbles blowing right through. The fuge would probably have some live rock and other macroalgae - would that help slow down th bubbles?

[waterlily]

The glass should be cut just slightly narrower than the width of the tank. To get silicone on the side that's an inch away from another baffle, try making the glue bead about 1/8 inch away from where you want it, farther away from the other baffle. Then push your new glass into place, pushing the silicone bead along with it. This will get the silicone between the tank and the new baffle and it will get the silicone where you couldn't otherwise get it. Use something long and narrow to smooth out the bead between the baffles. I used a knitting needle, but if you had a long pen, that would work too.

[johns]

Originally posted by waterlily
The glass should be cut just slightly narrower than the width of the tank.

1/16" less? 1/8" less?

[thedogofwar]

the fuge in between should take care of you nicely. Many ppl do just this.

Waterlily-Have you tried your suggested method? Sounds like it could get a little messy but would work. Silicon cleanup isn't bad after it dries anyway.

I agree that you should have a gap no matter how you go about it. I cut my pieces 1/8" short to leave a 1/16" on each side. It's just like welding, you can get better penetration this way, just make sure the silicon/glue gets between the edges of the baffle and the glass. This provides more surface area for leaks and strength.

FYI, I tested out my idea using airline, it's a little slow going and I'm sure multiple beads would have made my hand start to cramp, but it will work nicely.

[johns]

OK. I just want to explain in full, what the sump design is like. If anyone can critique it again knowing the full dimensions, etc. I'd appreciate.

Here's what I'm planning: a 36 X 12 X 16 sump, water level will be at 12" - first section skimmer/drain is 11.5" - second section fuge is 12.5" - third section return is 8.5". Add in two 1" spaces between baffles and six 1/4" plates of glass and you get 36".

If I have to, I could go 1.25" between the baffles, and make the fuge section 12" rather than 12.5". A minor difference, but I want it to work.

So has anyone used a very small width, like 1" between a 3-baffles bubble-trap in a similar set-up with success in eliminating the bubbles? I keep hoping with an in-sump fuge in between, I should be ok.

[thedogofwar]

Do I have this right?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/36585mini-SUMP-Model-med.jpg

[johns]

Fantastic. You are 100% correct.

Besides wanting to know how you did that, what do you think about the design?

And as I said, I could make the partitions 1.25" each, in which case the fuge would go down to 12? or is there something else you would change?

[thedogofwar]

I'm a draftsman, that took >5min with AutoCAD. If you mean posting, I just uploaded the pic to my RC gallery and used the img tags to post it.

Well I still need to know @ about what GPH you plan on running through it to give you my best opinion.

Let me throw a couple ideas your way. The following is a design I made for another reefer whos pump was too large for fuge usage so it was split up. I am anxiously awaiting to results of the config. I wanted to show you this to describe the first area of LR that is very similair to a wet/dry filter. The major difference is that the LR is fully submerged at all times. I added the same area to my sump after fighting microbubbles.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/36585mini-dFUGE2-Model.jpg

here is a pic of my sump. Sry for the quality, camera sux. You'll also have to excuse the fact that this are has collapsed in this picture. I slipped and my elbow fell right into it, crushing it. :o
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/36585mini-Jan02365.JPG

The microbubbles can't even get past the LR now. I love it but it requires a filter with proper maintenance to avoid nitrate problems.

Now here is one of Melev's designs that basically does about the same. I had originally thought about doing just a corner area but was concerned that the area would be too small and I would end up with the same result, so I made the are the entire width. You should check out his site, it's got some great info.

http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/sump.html
k, that must be too big to post, http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/sump.html

my last thought is a filter sock. I don't know how well they are at killing microbubbles so I can't say for sure what the turnout would be.

The biggest thing with your design that I want to point out is the baffle between the drain/fuge and the 1st baffle after the fuge. This is based soley on what I witnessed on my sump before adding the LR area and may be isolated to my sump only. I witnessed the microbubbles cruising across the top and right into the baffles. I'm concerned you may have the same problem. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

IMO, the best way to kill microbubbles is to get them where they start. Take steps to finesse their entry into the sump and you'll find it much easier to controll.

[johns]

Well, to answer your first question. I'll be using an Eheim 1262 return pump. This runs about 900GPH at 0 head. At the head I'll be running it at, it'll probably be more like 600GPH. Also, I installed a ball valve on the return line to control the flow somewhat. I'm expecting that's I'll be throttling it down just a bit to get the flow to be around 450-500GPH through the sump.

Your sump design is pretty impressive and has given me some things to think about. However, I'm not sure how much of it I can use.

The skimmer I have (Euroreef 5-2) has a large footprint (10"), so I kind of need the drain section to be a bit bigger than yours. Also, the drain line I want to use will end in a submerged "Tee" (not an upright "T", but on it's side), with an elbow going up off of the horizontal potion of the "T" to break the surface of the water. I'm doing all this to quiet down water entering the sump, and the elbow up is to allow for an air vent to reduce gurgling.

Anyway, my reason for explaining this to just to illustrate to you that I'll need a bit extra space in the drain scetion to make this work. The drain "T" ending is a bit more bulky than a simple hose going down to the drain. Given this, I was thinking 11.5" would give me a little room to work in there.

Here's another idea though - tell me what you think of it. What if I put in a live rock filter similar to yours in the fuge section?

Instead of using the full 12.5" to grow macro (and i was going to put some rock in there too), I could maybe move the first baffle of the bubble trap over 2 inches, giving me a 3" space within the first part of the bubble trap to incorporate some live rock rubble like yours.

If, on top of that, I also shrink both my return section by 0.5", I'll be left with 11.5" skimmer/drain, 11" fuge for macro, 3" live rock filter/fuge, 1" space, 8" return. Again, add in the 6 1/4 inch sheets of glass and you'll have 36".

Please critique that, as well as answer the following questions for me:

1 - Is the live rock filter installed there still going to help reduce bubbles? Will I get any other benefit from the live rock there?

2 - Does this live rock filter area require any special sort of regular maintenance? I ask this because I'm trying to understand your comment about avoiding nitrate problems.

And the last one is easy:
3 - How did you attach the eggcrate in the live rock filter area. Does it just stay in place with friction? Did you silicone it to the glass?

[YYZ_125G]

For the first plan, before the pump return I would go with just the first two baffles 2" apart (3" is better). The bubbles are only trapped by the down draft. The third partition shown will actually create bubbles as water falls from the 12" high partition into the pump return area. The pump return area water height will be variable from evaporation unless you are planning on an auto top off system.

[thedogofwar]

I use a T on mine as well, only it sits right at the water lvl and sideways.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/36585mini-Jan02372.JPG

Anyway, off the top of my head I like the idea of making the LR area after and for now don't see any probs. i got a little held up here at work and now it's time to go so I'll post more later and answer your questions. I think you're on a good track.

[thedogofwar]

Originally posted by YYZ_125G
For the first plan, before the pump return I would go with just the first two baffles 2" apart (3" is better). The bubbles are only trapped by the down draft. The third partition shown will actually create bubbles as water falls from the 12" high partition into the pump return area. The pump return area water height will be variable from evaporation unless you are planning on an auto top off system.

real quick b4 I go, the partition you're talking about creating bubbles, this is true and my particular set-up took precautions to prevent this, however these are bubbles and not micro-bubbles which are 2 entirely different animals. larger bubbles are much easier to control.

[johns]

Well considering what YYZ is saying then...

If I were to use my second plan with the live rock filter, would I be ok removing the third baffle of the bubble trap? If it's not really doing anything, or doing more harm than good, then why not get rid of it. Actually, it would probably make the sump easier to build. And more importantly, it'll give me another 1.25" to work with somehere else. I could either add the extra space to the fuge section or the return chamber. I dont know which would be better.

I originally had the 3 baffle system because someone told me a bubble trap should have a minimum of 3 baffles - 2 sitting on bottom and one placed higher up.

[YYZ_125G]

Here are some pictures of my sump. Hope they give you some ideas.

The sump

[thedogofwar]

Let me go back first,

1 - Is the live rock filter installed there still going to help reduce bubbles? Will I get any other benefit from the live rock there?

I imagine it will work equally as well as the front as far as bubbles. As far as I know, there's no benefits besides this. The LR will filter just like it does anywhere else.

2 - Does this live rock filter area require any special sort of regular maintenance? I ask this because I'm trying to understand your comment about avoiding nitrate problems.

nitrate problems, wet/dry filters have a bad rep for being "nitrate factories" IMO this is user error and not a flaw in the wet/dry filter design. Yes there is maintenance involved. I would pre-filter the water before it reaches the mass of LR. Lets face it, BioBalls can not create nitrates on their own, it takes organic materials to finish the equation. If organics are allowed to collect in the LR, you'll get the same effect. So you 2 choices. prefilter that you change/clean reguraly or you have to clean the LR occasionally. Well you go cleaning the LR and you'll strip most of the beneficial bacteria on it, you've just destroyed the bio-filter properties of the LR.

3 - How did you attach the eggcrate in the live rock filter area. Does it just stay in place with friction? Did you silicone it to the glass?

I used shelf supports I purchased from HD. If you look closely you can probably see the small black spots. They are designed to fit into holes commonly found in pre-fabbed stereo cabinets and whatnot. I just chopped off the nipple part and siliconed it on.

the final baffle, like I was saying earlier, I understand what he means and if you could see it, my last baffle is an "under" type. I was thinking the same thing while designing. However it's not the problem I thought it wopuld be. These larger bubbles that are created from the fall will rise to the surface rapidly and are nothing compared to microbubbles. The final chamber is where all of your water lvl fluctuations will take place due to evap or whatever. If it's neglected long enough that the level in there drops, it could cause a prob.

using the LR, I would personally try going w/o it to give you the extra room. This LR config does an exceptional job of stopping the microbubbles. If you can make that area 3"+ I believe that is all you'll need.

[YYZ_125G]

I think you will be happy going with a two-partition bubble trap spaced as wide as possible. It will maximize your down draft area with less impact on total sump space versus a three partition trap.

Here is a pic of one return from my tank. I tried a T and wasn’t real happy. It was to loud for my taste and churned my refuge more than I wanted.

That is a cheap nylon on the down tube. It doesn’t clog I just flip it inside out and rinse to clean.

[YYZ_125G]

Here is the diffuser without the nylon. All the bubbles you see actually ride up the diffuser and leave crap at the top inside of the nylon. Kind of a rough skimmer bonus. Real quite.

[YYZ_125G]

Here is the reeturn area how I have been running it (subject to change). In the weirs I have bluebond, poly filter, and sponge. The bluebond is to catch the crap before the poly filter. the sponge is to even the flow through the media so the water isn't flowing through one edge or the other. I rinse weekly after I churn up the display and refuge to get all the crap in the media.

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar
using the LR, I would personally try going w/o it to give you the extra room. This LR config does an exceptional job of stopping the microbubbles. If you can make that area 3"+ I believe that is all you'll need.

A little confused - are you saying to use a 3+", 2-baffle bubble-trap WITH live rock or WITHOUT live rock. I understand your comments about the nitrate problems. I was thinking the same thing. You could have just as easily used bioballs in that first filter area you built, couldn't you.

So maybe if a put a foam pad above the eggcrate on top of the LR filter, would that be sufficient to reduce the organic build-up?

So here's what i'm thinking now:

11.5" Skimmer/Drain followed by a single baffle 12"T from the bottom up. Next the fuge at 12", followed by the 2-baffle bubble trap with 3.25" between (first baffle 12T from bottom up, next baffle also 12T but 2" off the bottom). Next is 8" retun. Add in five 1/4" sheets of glass and you have 36"

It seems reasonable to me now to reduce the size of the return section. I could even reduce it more...maybe. It was originally bigger because I wanted to allow for enough evaporation. But now that the baffle preceding it is open at the bottom, it allows for more water volume for evaporation before there is a problem.

So the question is, do i put live rock or not? Am I going to get rid of the microbubbles regardless of whether the LR is there?

[YYZ_125G]

From comments I have read go without the live rock. Keep your sump as clean as possible just some macro in your fuge area. I am planning to take the crushed coral out of mine.

If you are planning an auto top off system you will be ok reducing the return pump area. I wasn’t planning one and my tank ended up evaporating 2 gallons a day. I was lucky I had some space in my stand for a 5-gallon bucket for top off system. I couldn’t even stop off at the bar after work knowing my sump was sucking air (might as well have a dog). If I go out of town I have to use a 40gal Tupperware sitting outside my stand.

Some other things you may want to consider, sorry if I add more confusion. Your skimmer will be more efficient if its output doesn’t empty into the same compartment as the feed pump. How about your heater you will want to fit that in the sump. What if you need to use activated carbon, phosphate pad, or whatever, where will it go? Did you allow for power outage overflow capacity?

I would recommend using acrylic partitions over glass. The advantage is you can cut them yourself to make later modifications. When you have your design just tack the partitions in place with a little silicon. Then run the system with salt water and all your components and check no power situation. If all is good glue together or make changes until your satisfied. You don’t have to get it right the first time.

[thedogofwar]

yes you could use bio-balls but I prefer natural means.

Yes, I use a double media filter from PetSMart, cut to fit for a prefilter sitting on top the eggcrate. The filter is positioned to be lvl with the water lvl so that it is almost silent when expelling water. I cut 4 so I could just pop a new one in between, somewhere between the 4 I wash them for reuse. After a few cleanings, they need replaced completely.

Personally I would use the LR. Normally, the more LR, the better, and believe me, you don't want to deal with microbubbles. you may have noticed my sump was almost nothing but baffles. I placed 2 large holes in one just in case. This was basically my 3rd design to get it right and I wasn't taking any chances. the first was just too small for the GPH, what I call the 3rd is just the addition of the LR area, it wasn't there at first.


xyz, I like the nylon. nice! does it do a good job of conatining bubbles? My one prob with your design is the filtered return. I ran one for awhile, a much coarser one and found many a pods lodged in it, those that could have been returned to the display for food.

...awww crap, theres the problem with the LR and filter after the fuge, you would have to place it at the beginning of the fuge. I wasn't thinking about that. my fuge and sump are seperate and I was thinking I could move that LR anywhere, I can, you can't. Unless you're only interested in nutrient export from the fuge.

[thedogofwar]

I don't mean to start any debates, just express my opinions.

Originally posted by YYZ_125G
From comments I have read go without the live rock. Keep your sump as clean as possible just some macro in your fuge area. I am planning to take the crushed coral out of mine.

What comments are those? Nitrate factories because they don't pre-filter or because the neglect the filter? Just Macro? why waste all that space. I let hair algae grow to absorb silicates, sponges, dusters, any filter feeders, 5 types of macro, my snails reproduce there, make it a breeding ground.
Originally posted by YYZ_125G

If you are planning an auto top off system you will be ok reducing the return pump area.
exactly right, which leads me to ask what type of overflow you use? I calculated my return area so that if my HOT overflow lost siphon, the display could not overflow. Likewise XYZ mentions backwash for pump failure or PO. Mine is also calculated so that if this happens, the sump or fuge won't overflow. This calculation is hard unless you're already running your overflow and know how high the lvl will be above the weir. I'm sure theres a calculation that could help you, I guestimated and got lucky.


Originally posted by YYZ_125G
Some other things you may want to consider, sorry if I add more confusion. Your skimmer will be more efficient if its output doesn’t empty into the same compartment as the feed pump. How about your heater you will want to fit that in the sump. What if you need to use activated carbon, phosphate pad, or whatever, where will it go?

I think the skimmer thought is almost nill, positioned with common sense the flow through the system will carry away the skimmed water, it's not going to travel back around against 600GPH

Plenty of room for a heater, most will fit across the width.

carbon/phosphate pads, etc can be very easily layed on top the eggcrate with the filter or between baffles....

Originally posted by YYZ_125G
I would recommend using acrylic partitions over glass. The advantage is you can cut them yourself to make later modifications. When you have your design just tack the partitions in place with a little silicon. Then run the system with salt water and all your components and check no power situation. If all is good glue together or make changes until your satisfied. You don’t have to get it right the first time.
agree completely with the acrylic but I'd be careful with just tacking some baffles in place. 1G=8.? lbs, you're looking at a couple 10G areas here.
:eek1: [/B][/QUOTE]

[johns]

YYZ-

Wow. Thanks for your help so far. But boy...I still have a lot of questions. Hope you can bear with me hear a little while longer.

Are those 2 compartments next to you return pump (where the sponges and filter are located) open at the bottom? I cant tell from the pictures. How big is the opening at the bottom? Looks like it's really narrow or something. Is that helpful?

Originally posted by YYZ_125G
If you are planning an auto top off system you will be ok reducing the return pump area. I wasn’t planning one and my tank ended up evaporating 2 gallons a day. I was lucky I had some space in my stand for a 5-gallon bucket for top off system.

Unfortunately, I probably wont have room for an auto top-off inside the stand. Maybe I could rig one up later on using a large bucket outside the stand for times when I'm gone for a number of days. But I'm thinking that if I keep my return around 8" + 3" inches between the bubble trap should give me aroung 7Gal to work with. I was hoping to take some additional measures to avoid evaporation, like cover as much of the sump as possible (I know evaporation is considered a good thing, but I gotta make some concessions).


Your skimmer will be more efficient if its output doesn’t empty into the same compartment as the feed pump.

Unfortunatley another concession I'll probably have to live with unless I can hook up some flex tubing off the skimmer output and just throw it up and over to the fuge.


How about your heater you will want to fit that in the sump.

Hopefully in the fuge. If I can do the fuge at 12X12X12, it should fit ok.


What if you need to use activated carbon, phosphate pad, or whatever, where will it go?

If I use this design adding the eggcrate holders the way thedogofwar mentions, then I could use that area between the bubble-trap as a compartment to throw in bags of carbon when needed. Provided, of course, that I'm not using that compartment for the live rock.

Did you allow for power outage overflow capacity?

Here's another place where I've needed some help. I HOPE I am. But honestly, I've never done this before. I dont know really how much overflow capacity I'll really need. I'm not sure what to expect. Just for the record, the return pipe does have a siphon break drilled into the elbow that sits on the top of the overflow.

If I keep the water level in the sump at 12 inches, I'll have 4" of space left to overflow into the sump. That gives me around 7.4Gal (36 X 12 X 4 X 0.0043). Does that at least SOUND like enough to you?

I would recommend using acrylic partitions over glass. The advantage is you can cut them yourself to make later modifications.

Makes sense. But again, I'm often told the silicone wont hold acrylic to glass very well. So I'm on the fence for this one.

[YYZ_125G]

thedogofwar, the nylons work great. The bubbles travel up inside and deposit larger sized crap at the top like I said kind of a coarse skimmer. A lot cheaper than the pre-filter socks I see allot of people recommending. And they don't clog up.

johns, if you want to read the end all of all threads here it is. I know live rock, live sand, etc. in the sump and everything else is covered here. I believe that is where I read something about high water flow sumps restricting live rocks ability to push out detritus. Better have about a week LOL.


http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210605

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar
...awww crap, theres the problem with the LR and filter after the fuge, you would have to place it at the beginning of the fuge. I wasn't thinking about that. my fuge and sump are seperate and I was thinking I could move that LR anywhere, I can, you can't. Unless you're only interested in nutrient export from the fuge.

I dont understand why it would need to go before the fuge. Why does it make a difference? Could you explain?

I'm not so sure I can get it to work before the fuge. I planning to put some sand in there, so if the baffle that is up from the bottom is placed facing the fuge, it wont work (sand will fill up the downdraft area). If I turn it around and put the downdraft facing the skimmer, I guess I'll be pushing water up and over the live rock filter area. I dont know if that will work or not. Kinda close to the main source of microbubbles isn't it?

[johns]

Originally posted by YYZ_125G
johns, if you want to read the end all of all threads here it is. I know live rock, live sand, etc. in the sump and everything else is covered here. I believe that is where I read something about high water flow sumps restricting live rocks ability to push out detritus. Better have about a week LOL.


http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210605

I've seen parts of that thread in the past. And I'll probably look some more. But I kinda need to make this current design or something similar work in my system.

If I take your word for it and eliminate the live rock, I can still use the area to run carbon etc, right? If I do what the dogsofwar says, I'll put the live rock in.

But my question now is where to put that live rock or carbon filtering bubble-trap section - before the fuge or after? Also some of the questions for you from my previous thread. Please try to give me a hand when you have some time. If you're busy now that's ok. Thanks for your help so far though.

[YYZ_125G]

Queries, ponders, questions, I was just about to hit the hay and it is snowing like a banshee here, three inches down and piling as I type. I will have my work cut out before I even go to work tomorrow.

About the live rock in the sump thing, I only know some people on the board believe it gets in the way of cleaning detritus (nothing about nitrate factory). Like thedogofwar I think it would be beneficial, but I was reading a thread today, and saw some pictures of clean fuges with only masses of macro algae loaded with pods. Beautiful I am so envious, wish I had subscribed to the thread so it was at hand and could link here. They had some great pictures. Johns, I know you are concerned about space in your sump. You picked a great skimmer in the Euroreef but it has a large footprint. I was thinking no live rock in a smaller fuge would give you a simpler design and allow for a larger return to account for evaporation.

Here is the link to help calculate sump volume for pump failure and power outage.
http://reefcentral.com/calc/sump.php

My Aquac EV-120 performs better with the output separated from the feed pump, but I believe they are more temper mental than the Euroreef products. Separation for you should be a minor concession.

If you go acrylic for partitions you can sand the partition in from the edge to rough up the surface so the silicon will adhere. Don’t sand it for a temporary test and it will peal right off. You can use a good amount of silicon to tack in the partitions temporary. Just apply the silicon to the downstream side of the partition and they hold against the flow, but will pop right out if needed. Just don’t put silicon over the original tank silicon (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt) or it will be more difficult to cut apart without compromising the integrity of the sump.

Good night as I go to dream of shoveling snow. Should I shovel to the left then right or right then left, toss hard or light. Wait am I shoveling snow or building a sump. - Daniel

[johns]

Hey YYZ-

When you mentioned snow, I just looked at your profile. We're neighbors. I live in Racine Co. and it's snowing like mad right now here too.

Well thanks for the help. Maybe you can get back to me tomorrow about a couple other things:

1 - really wondering about the question of putting this bubble-trap before or after the fuge. this is the main thing. I cant start until I finalize this part of the design.

2 - still curious about the openings at the bottom of your baffles and how large of a space you have

3 - I'm actually a little bit confused about how you suggest to separate the output of the skimmer from the drain opening. How would you do that? At this point, the thing that cant change right now in my design is the fact that they have to stay in the same compartment. So that kills that idea right.? or am I missing something

4 - buy a snowblower

[YYZ_125G]

I think bubble trap just before your pump.

My partitions are set at about 1 1/2" above bottom, right about at the top of the plastic frame for the tank thats why it won't show in picture. I don't think that distance is critical.

I have a snow blower but prefer to shovel (good beer burner). When I have to run the blower I feel like Mother Nature just won.

[johns]

Ok. I prefer the bubble trap just before the return pump as well.

Now I'm still just wondering why thedogofwar thought it wouldn't work there.

As far as the live rock in the bubble trap, I'm still just up in the air about it. I just like the fact that if a build a little shelf in there with eggcrate, I can put either LR, carbon or some other filter material when i need to.

And I never really got an answer from either of you: do you think that my microbubbles would be taken care of with this larger 2-baffle 3.25" bubble trap, regardless of whether there is anything else in there like LR?

[thedogofwar]

my comments about the bubbletrap area is only relavant if you were to use the LR area with a filter. If you filter the water through a synthetic media, pods and other things can't pass through it. They can't be returned to the display. Look at the close-up XYZ posted and tell me how any pods produced will ever get to the display?

about your larger baffle. I haven't answered because I don't want to give you bad info, I don't know. These microbubbles can stay suspended for awhile even when flow is 0. IMO it's hit or miss and dependent upon how many microbubbles and they're size reaching the baffles.

the distance off the bottom is just as critical as the distance between the baffles. The lower you can get it, the further bubbles will have to travel, the smaller the gap, the higher the velocity, the higher the velocity, the easier it becomes for the bubbles to make it through. Actually making that gap larger than the distance between the baffles would be a good idea. You make it a larger area and the velocity will drop just before any bubbles can slip under the baffle, very similair to redSea skimmer.

"I read something about high water flow sumps restricting live rocks ability to push out detritus"
I'm gonna have to read that thread because this comment confuses me. Remember, I was recommending a prefilter which would trap alot of it before it reaches the LR.

I don't know why you're still worried about skimmer efficiency. You're not going to recycle that water if the intake is at the front and the output is at the rear.

[thedogofwar]

XYZ, I noticed the filters are only present in the close-up. ???

I wanted to add a solution to the evaporation factor. You can always drill a couple small holes in the baffles to add volume for the return. Thats a solution if you find yourself in a pinch.

I still don't know what type of overflow you use so I don't know how important that is. In any case, I can't help but recommend a DIY or the ReefFanatic level controller. I placed one float in the display and the other in the return area. If the tank gets too full or the sump gets too dry, it will shut down the pump. For $89 the controller is great insurance.

[YYZ_125G]

I just took the filters out for a picture.

I have the new AGA Megaflow overflows.

[johns]

my comments about the bubbletrap area is only relavant if you were to use the LR area with a filter. If you filter the water through a synthetic media, pods and other things can't pass through it. They can't be returned to the display.

I understand your comments about the filter after the fuge now. No pods will make it through. So my only solution is to either:

A. NOT go with the live rock there - If instead I use it only to run carbon or other filtration on an intermittant basis, it shouldn't be as much of an issue to the pod removal, right?

B. get thie live rock and filter chamber BEFORE the fuge somehow - I honestly dont know the best way to do that or if it'll even work. I dont know if you have any ideas. As I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread I dont know which side to have to baffle that's off the bottom facing. I dont think it can face the fuge because the space will fill with sand, right?

the distance off the bottom is just as critical as the distance between the baffles. The lower you can get it, the further bubbles will have to travel, the smaller the gap, the higher the velocity, the higher the velocity, the easier it becomes for the bubbles to make it through. Actually making that gap larger than the distance between the baffles would be a good idea.

So, do you think it's really benefitial for me to make the gap at the bottom 3". I dont know if I feel comfortable much higher. And the distance between the 2 baffles will be around 3.25"

I'm really intrigued also by your idea about drilling holes into the baffles to alleviate evaporation problems. I never thought of that. Could you tell me (still using this current idea of the bubble trap after fuge and before return, as an example), how many holes would you drill, approx what size would they be and approx where on the baffle?


And to finally answer your question about the overflow - the tank is a 75G Oceanic Reef Ready, so it has their standard rear corner overflow box. The box is approx 8.75 X 5.5, with teeth cut along the top on the 2 sides of the box facing the main tank. The very bottom of the teeth are about 1.5 inches below the rim of the tank. If you need other info let me know.

Again, thanks for your help.

[thedogofwar]

Unless you find a way to place it (LR) at the very front I thing it's going to eat up too much space. You're right, there will be troubles, theres a couple solutions but I'm not sure they're worth it.

The holes can and should be small, very small. Just 1/4 or 1/8" They only need to be large enough to keep up with the evap. a couple gallons a day max? Thats not even 1G/hr.

I just wanted to know if you're using a drilled tank or a HOT overflow. The chances of you overflowing the tank are minimal compared to a HOT so you don't need to be as concerned about return volume. It's up to you, how much you may worry about it. Thats why I suggested the lvl controller. I use a HOT overflow and I could barely sleep, jumping up everytime I heard something that sounded as if it could be a problem. It also stops the huge cloud of bubbles that could be blasted into the display if the pump was sucking air. Some microbubbles are only an appearance issue, alot could cause problems, not to mention pump failure.

NP about the help, I just got done researching all this to no end and I know how overwhelming it can seem at first. I also continue to learn so it's good for me too.

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar
Unless you find a way to place it (LR) at the very front I thing it's going to eat up too much space. You're right, there will be troubles, theres a couple solutions but I'm not sure they're worth it.


So I probably should just keep the bubble trap after the fuge and don't go with the LR then, I think.

But one more question for YYZ too - since you are filtering your water before the return chamber, you must not worry too much about the pods not making it through? Maybe it's not so big a deal to put a filter bag over the live rock chamber?

In any case, I'll have a bit of flexibility with this set-up.


The holes can and should be small, very small. Just 1/4 or 1/8" They only need to be large enough to keep up with the evap. a couple gallons a day max? Thats not even 1G/hr.


How about how many holes and where to put them on the baffle? After thinking a bit more, I'm a little concerned about this now too.

My original objectives were to make sure I have enough volume over the water level in the sump to handle the overflow from the tank in case the pump stops working. And then also to make the return section has enough volume to keep me from topping off continuously (I mean every few days might be ok, but just not all the time), but not so much volume that if the drain line ever gets plugged, I'll return so much water to the tank that it'll overflow. I'm not so sure how much of an issue this latter one really is. Plugging the drain line doesn't seem as likely. But I guess you never know.

So by adding hole to the baffles, I'll be increasing my evaporation capacity, but also increasing the total volume I'll be returning to the tank in case of a drain plug. I dont know, what do you think? I might be being paranoid.

[thedogofwar]

I would never filter the water after it's been through the fuge.

wheww, ok this is where it gets really fun, :)

according to the RC calc, your tank has an overflow capacity of 5.8G That’s with 1.5� but consider that the lvl will be .5� above the weir during operation and that makes it only 3.9G. This isn’t even considering the volume inside the plumbing or whats already above the baffles in the sump. The original design with 8.5�x8.5�x12� comes out to 5.3G So now you’ve already exceeded the overflow capacity.

With the internal overflow, take precautions like screening off the drain and the chances of overflowing are very slim. Honestly, and this is just me, I wouldn’t be too concerned about that happening and I’m a pretty paranoid person myself.

About the holes, RC calc claims that 1GPH which would be about 2G/day requires a .04� hole. So a single .125� hole will be more than enough. As far as placement, you’ll need to calculate the distance from the hole to the top of the baffle multiplied by the distance back to the next baffle. It will be easier to say, I want to add X amount of gallons so I need this much space and go from there.

[YYZ_125G]

I'm still playing with my filters. To be honest after 3 months my refuge isn't doing much. I have some pods but not enough to worry about making it back to display. The pump would probably chop them up. My macro isn’t really growing much either. Nitrates = 0, phosphate = 0, my skimmer must be doing the work it is supposed to. I can always pull the filter on the fuge side if I want to but then I get more particulates floating in the display.

I am not sure putting holes in your partition will help with evaporation. The partition is a dam it will hold the water back and set the depth of water in front of it. Holes will make the dam leak and cause less water to flow over the top of the partition but the compartment level shouldn’t change. I will put some thought into the mechanics when I get a chance.

[thedogofwar]

Originally posted by YYZ_125G

I am not sure putting holes in your partition will help with evaporation. The partition is a dam it will hold the water back and set the depth of water in front of it. Holes will make the dam leak and cause less water to flow over the top of the partition but the compartment level shouldn’t change. I will put some thought into the mechanics when I get a chance.

sure it will, all you're doing is essentially lowering the baffle to the point of hole placement. We're talking about 1/8" hole which only allows a few GPH to pass through it so it's not gonna make a big difference in regular operation. the compartment lvl won't change but it adds all the volume above the hole prior to the baffle to be added to the total.

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar

according to the RC calc, your tank has an overflow capacity of 5.8G That’s with 1.5� but consider that the lvl will be .5� above the weir during operation and that makes it only 3.9G. This isn’t even considering the volume inside the plumbing or whats already above the baffles in the sump. The original design with 8.5�x8.5�x12� comes out to 5.3G So now you’ve already exceeded the overflow capacity.

Confused here again. I'm not sure where the 8.5x8.5x12 figure comes into play. Because if I make my baffles 12" tall, and the water level stays at that level, I'm expecting that I'll have the whole open space above the whole sump area for water from the tank to drain down into. Since the tank is 16" tall, that gives me 4" above the entire sump. So the amount I came up with for overflow capacity of the sump was this:

36" x 12" x 4" = 7.4G

Isn't that right?

I guess my question might be will the water level stay at 12" if thats the height where I put the baffles? I could change the height to maybe 11" if that would be better?



And then as for the amount of overflow from my main tank, i did a similar calculation that you did:

The very bottom of the teeth in the overflow box are 1.5 inches below the rim of the tank (the plastic rim that the cover sits on, that is). So assuming the very worst, that the working water level is at the rim of the tank, my first figure is:

48 X 18 X 1.5 = 1296

Then in the overflow box (8.75 X 5.5 rear corner box), I have a durso standpipe. So figuring the amount of water left in there until it hits the bottom opening of the durso, my figure is this:

8.75 X 5.5 X 4.5 = 217

Add these 2 up and multiply by .0043 and I get about 6.5 gallons. I'm thinking I already have wiggle room in there, because how can my water level possibly be all the way to the rim of the tank, right?

Do all these calculations make sense to you?

[thedogofwar]

Yes, johns, but I was speaking of display overflow, not the sump.

oh and add a top-off and the whole calculated area goes out the window because you've just added the volume of the top-off container to the total.

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar
Yes, johns, but I was speaking of display overflow, not the sump.


???

What I thought you were saying was that the amount of overflow from the display is ~5.8G. My calculations came out to 6.5G, and I think it's a worst case scnario, if my logic is correct. Both in the same ballpark anyway

Ane then I think you were saying that the capacity for overflow in the sump is only 5.3G (8.5 x 8.5 x 12). This was the calculation that didn't make sense to me. My calculation came out to 7.4G, again unless something is wrong with my logic here.

Soory to be so picky, but I need to make sure I understand 100%. So which is right?

[thedogofwar]

Originally posted by johns
???

What I thought you were saying was that the amount of overflow from the display is ~5.8G. My calculations came out to 6.5G, and I think it's a worst case scnario, if my logic is correct. Both in the same ballpark anyway

Ane then I think you were saying that the capacity for overflow in the sump is only 5.3G (8.5 x 8.5 x 12). This was the calculation that didn't make sense to me. My calculation came out to 7.4G, again unless something is wrong with my logic here.

Soory to be so picky, but I need to make sure I understand 100%. So which is right?

:D ok now I'm confused :D

Be picky, be very very picky. :)

My calculations of 5.8G was the volume of the display tank above the wier of the overflow. the 3.9 figure is 2/3 of that assuming about .5" operating lvl above the bottom of the slots.

The 5.3G figure is the volume of the return chamber using the dimensions you provided for the first scenario, the one I sketched the diagram for. Not counting the extra thats overflowing and in the plumbing, this 5.3G is what could be returned to the display in the effent of a drain failure.

You're figuring the opposite, the volume in the tank that could drain to the sump in the event of a power or pump failure. I haven't gone through your figures again but at a glance they appear valid. It also appears that you know what you're doing so I assume you've done the math correctly.

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar
[BThe 5.3G figure is the volume of the return chamber using the dimensions you provided for the first scenario, the one I sketched the diagram for. Not counting the extra thats overflowing and in the plumbing, this 5.3G is what could be returned to the display in the effent of a drain failure.
[/B]

Now I got you! You're saying that 5.3G returned to the main display will overflow it. This figure of 5.3 is what I have often been calling my evaporation capacity. Problem is, your number of 5.3G was right , but the dimensions of the return chamber you provided were wrong (it's not 8.5 x 8.5 x 12 - but 8.5 x 12 x 12) Still, you're right that it will overflow.

And with the new design, the return chamber is 8 inches, but you have to add the space between the baffles of 3.25 inches now too since it's open to the return on the bottom. So now the evaporation capacity becomes 11.25 x 12 x 12 = 7.0G, which will overflow the main tank even more.

Still, you say this is an unlikely scenario for the drain to get plugged (others have told me that too). I've already put a little eggcrate screen inside the opening of the Durso and made another screen to sit at the top of the internal overflow box as well.

So should I stop worrying about it? Anyway the only way to fix this is the make the water level very low, and limit my evaporation capacity to like 3G or so. That seems kinda unreasonable to me.

And if I drill any holes in the baffle, the evaporation capacity (and amount of water being returned) obviously gets even greater than the figure of 7.0G. The way I calculate it, for every inch below the water level I put those holes, I'll add 0.6G of water from the fuge section to the evaporation capacity (12 x 12 x 1). Should I leave the capacity at 7.0G or drill some holes below the water level. What would YOU DO???

So what do you think of the final design then? I might start working on it as ealy as tomorrow. Any last minute changes?
Here it is again from an earlier part of this thread:

11.5" Skimmer/Drain followed by a single baffle 12"T from the bottom up. Next the fuge at 12", followed by the 2-baffle bubble trap with 3.25" between (first baffle 12T from bottom up, next baffle also 12T but 2" off the bottom). Next is 8" return. Add in five 1/4" sheets of glass and you have 36"

Sounds like I'll have to run it without the live rock, but I'll still put the eggcrate shelfs in just in case I use it for some other filtration.

Seems awfully simple. Hope it's functional.

Feel like drawing it?

[thedogofwar]

Exactly!
Yeah, I did type in the wrong dimension but think I figured with the 12", thats whats written down on the paper next to me anyway.

I was gonna say "Go For It" with the hole, but it's so easy to add later if you find yourself topping off too much, then do it. Heck you might even want to drill the hole and plug it, then maybe if you know you're gonna be away or something, you could remove it and then replace it again once you're back. Make one less thing for your tank sitter to take care of. Or maybe you forget and the lvl drops and you have no make-up water ready. Pop it out and the system can run until you've got the water ready.Thats exactly what I would do, drill and plug it. hey, thats what I'm gonna do. no reason I can't add it to mine.

I think the 3.25" may be overkill but I'm hesitant to call anything that in this hobby :) It's not gonna hurt if it's larger than need be.

I think you're all set. Sure I'll draw it up, NP.

Brandon

[thedogofwar]

Ok, I got started, but before I get too far, I have to ask a few questions.

would you like the dimensions to be to the edge of the baffles like the previous or to the centerlines?

The eggcrate trays, how many? and at what elevations?

I'll have to finish up at home but thats NP, I'll have it for you tonight. PM me your email so I can send the full size file to you, RC limits size to 50K for posting. And your prefered format.

oh and what pump are you using? I'll scale it in.

[johns]

Well the only issue with the holes...

I didn't tell you but, I really think I'm still going to do these baffles using glass. I know you and YYZ have both been saying acrylic is fine for this. But I've been throwing these same ideas around on another forum, and I still keep getting warnings about acrylic not sticking to the glass too well.

I dont know...I could try it as I have the acrylic sitting around. But if it doesn't work I'll have to empty the entire tank again, beacuse it is against the wall and I wont be able to get the sump out unless I move it. I just want to do it right the first time and not goof aroound with anything I'm not 100% sure about.

Anyway, that not to say i could ask them to drill a single 1/8" hole for me into the glass say 2-4 inches from the top in the center. What would you plug it with, just some silicone?

By the way, for the eggcrate shelfs, i think what I'm gonna do is ask them to cut me a couple of glass strips, about 0.25" thick by 11" or so. then I'll silicone those onto the bottoms of the baffles to create a little shelf for the eggcrate to sit on.

[thedogofwar]

I think you're worrying about the acrylic too much. I made all mine with it and even replaced the side panel on a 10G but it is yours so do how you feel best about it. I won't be the one to blame if it doesn't hold. :)

For a plug, use whatever, I was thinking about some small rubber plugs that I saw at HD or maybe a nylon screw and nut, just about anything thats removable and won't leach anything into the water.

[YYZ_125G]

I still disagree on the holes. The evaporation will come out of your final pump chamber adding the holes will not lower the water below the partition height unless the water entering the chamber is less than the amount that can pass through the holes. The water is over flowing the partition because you are pumping in more water than the container can hold. When you exceed the capacity of the container it overflows the partition, same thing going on in the display tank. On the other side the only thing that sets the water height in the pump chamber is the amount of water it is holding at any given time subject to evaporation and makeup.

Example:
You have a container split down the middle by a 10� partition with a holding chamber and a pump chamber. You have hole in the partition that can pass 10gph and a pump that will deliver 100gph pumping over the partition into the holding chamber.

If you put 10� of water into the container and run the pump 10gph will pass through the hole in the partition but the water will rise in the holding chamber slightly as the water is forced in from the pump chamber until the water overflows the partition at 90gph. At this point you will have slightly over 10� of water in the holding side and slightly less than 10� in the pump side.

You stop, remove 2� of water from the container and restart the pump. Water flows into the holding chamber at 100gph. Since the hole is only passing 10gph the holding chamber fills up at a rate of 90gph until it gets to the top of the partition and overflows into the pump chamber. At this point you have slightly over 10� of water in the holding chamber and slightly less than 6� in the pump chamber.

About the acrylic partitions. Silicon will stick well it is working for me. I wouldn't use it to build an acylic tank but for holding your partition in place it will be fine, just rough up surface with sand paper it will hold and save you the effort of working with glass.

Hope this makes sense. Daniel

[johns]

Originally posted by thedogofwar
would you like the dimensions to be to the edge of the baffles like the previous or to the centerlines?

Edges of the baffles would be good.

The eggcrate trays, how many? and at what elevations?

Eggcrate trays - Probably just one, near the bottom of where that baffle that is up off the bottom of the tank is, so around 2 " from the bottom of the tank. And then another eggcrate 'cover' up near the top somewhere.

I will ask you for your suggestion again here. Where should I put this one at the top? I think I'd still like enough room for a filter or foam pad of some sort to be placed on top of it, even if its just something I'll do intermittently. I'd just like to factor in some flexibility for now. So how far down should I put the eggcrate cover to allow for some filter or foam pad to be placed on top of it?

Eheim 1262

you can send as a jpeg or bmp to salituro(at)wi(dot)rr(dot)com

(that's my auto-harvester-safe email address, get it?)

[YYZ_125G]

One more thing about the acrylic, when you place your partitions that will go all the way to the bottom of the tank you will find the corners of the partition will want to cut into the original tank silicon bead. With acrylic partitions you can file the corners to round them so they will fit nice and not stress the original tank silicon. It would be worse to have a leaking sump than sump partition.

[johns]

YYZ-

I dont know I'm no expert. I might be missing something, but I keep seeing it this way.

Remember now that the return chamber is now open all the way to the side of the fuge, since the baffle right before the return pump is open at the bottom, right. And the hole we are talking about is there in the center of the baffle which is the right side of the fuge.

The return pump will keep the water level of the skimmer section and fuge section at a constant 12". At the same time you might start to see the water level of the return chamber start to fall slowly due to evaporation. Once that water level falls below the hole in the fuge baffle, water can also start to flow out of that hole and into the return chamber (in actuality, I think the water will always being flowing out of that hole and into the return, but this is just an illustration). This water can keep entering the return chamber, until the water level in the fuge falls below where you drilled that hole. All that extra water that enters the fuge adds to the evaporation capacity of the return chamber, the way I see it.

I was thinking about the silicone in the bottom of the glass tank too. I was going to ask the glass cutters if they would be able to round that glass at the bottom corners just a little bit for me to get it to fit snuggly at the bottom of the tank without cutting the silicone already in place.

[YYZ_125G]

Remember if you are evaporating water and it has to come from somewhere it’s about capacity not flow. You can’t maintain constant levels in your skimmer and fuge chambers if it is to replace water lost in your pump chamber. The return pump is removing water at a high rate of flow. It is trying to pump the chamber empty all the time. The only reason the pump chamber doesn’t empty is because the water circulates through your system and continually refills the pump chamber at the same rate it is pumped out. How the water returns either over the partition or through a hole in the partition is irrelevant. The only thing the hole will do is reduce the amount of water going over the top of the partition. As long as you have enough water in the system for the pump, water will flow over your 12� partition with or with out hole, keeping those chambers filled at 12�. If the water level in the tank, skimmer, and fuge are held constant the only place for water to be effected by evaporation is the pump chamber.

[thedogofwar]

XYZ, you are absolutely right. I couldn't fathom it in my head so I decided to try it and make sure. The only way it would work is if the hole was large enough to allow the same volume that the pump is flowing.

Oh well.

Johns, don't sweat it, you've got that 5G area, I'm running a 175W MH with 2 50CFM fans running and I only lose about .5G/day. You have more surface area but I don't expect it to make too big a difference. I don't think it would be any sooner than every 3 days

and in all honesty, it's best to top-off daily, the more water you allow to evaporate at once, the larger the swing in salanity and other paremeters.

...oh and before you start cutting, XYZ mentioned maintaining levels which alerted me of something. Your skimmer, does it require a specific water level in the sump for proper operation? These baffles at 12", is that going to be ok for the skimmer? You can always elevate the skimmer but you can't lower it.

[johns]

OK. I'll go without the hole in the baffle then.

The evaparation capacity of this design is actually around 7G and not 5G because the baffle before the return is open on bottom, remember?

Well I went and got the 30G tank tonight at the LFS and some aquarium silicone. I'm going to go ahead and try to do this with acrylic baffles first, i guess. The acyrlic is available so i might as well. I'll be doing the cutting tomorrow. I'll just rough up the edges with sandpaper and hope that the silicone sticks.

[thedogofwar]

Here ya go, I didn't do all the hidden lines and such because that confuses most ppl. I started a more presentation like dwg that you might use to show others your design, but I'll wait for the verdict on skimmer requirements before I go any further with that.

Let me know if you see any probs, I'm in a hurry to go out so I might have goofed but I didn't see one. I'll email the full size. When you see a buildfiber(dot)com email, thats it.



http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/36585mini-Drawing3-Model-med.jpg

[johns]

Oh yeah the skimmer. I forgot. It's a Euroreef 5-2 and it requires a water level about 6-8 inches according to the instructions. The standpipe goes up higher, 10-11 inches, so I never quite understood why 6-8 was needed. Some others that are familiar with this skimmer say it works great as long as the standpipe does not get sumberged...

Any, that's besides the point. I created a platform made of eggcrate that around 4" high that fits in the first compartment. It's something like 11" x 9" x 4". So I don't think I'll have a problem

[YYZ_125G]

Looks good, you should be real happy with the design. I think I will build egg crate trays like your lower one to replace the coarse sponge I have been using to support my filter media. One less thing to take to the sink and rinse. I'll just use some feet so I don't have to glue them into a running sump. Thanks for the idea guys.

[srfndoc]

Post back with the results (pics included) with using acrylic baffles. I will need to do this soon as well. Also, did you decide to use 'aquarium safe' silicone or GE silicone II? Most people say silicone II is safe if it's the 'windows and door' variety.

Thanks

[johns]

I built the sump yesterday pretty much according to that design shown. After doing a few measurements and calculations, I changed a couple minor dimensions. The glass on the 30G AGA and the scrap acrylic I was using turned out to be 3/16" rather than 1/4". All I did was increase the fuge section - came out to about 13.25" and the decrease the return section just a little - the full dimension from the bottom baffle to the edge of tank is around 10.5" with the bubble-trap portion of that still around 3.00-3.25". I included one more acrylic ledge centered between the other two to support one more eggcrate tray if needed (3 trays total). I dont even know if/how I'll use them, but it was easy and the eggcrate is removable - i like flexibility.

The acrylic sheets seemed to silicone pretty well. I did rough up abuut a 0.5" area around each edge to be baffled. Maybe that helped. I wound up gooping a lot of silicone around since this was my first project like this. Doesn't matter much, but I hope to use a razor blade to clean up some of that off the glass.

I went to home depot to get silicone - I'm pretty sure the one your supposed to use is Clear GE Silicone I Window and Door (GE012A) - not Silicone II (might want to check to make sure) - but unfortunately they did not have that available in squeezable tubes like I wanted. But I found, right next to it, Clear Dap Aquarium SIlicone. S I got a couple small tubes of that for like 2.75 each.

I can probably get some pictures. But it'll probably take me a day or 2 before I can get them up.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP!!!

I just hope it works according to plan.

[johns]

YYZ-

I have to bring up that live rock in the filter chamber thing again. And I have another question for you.

What is that filter media you are showing being used before your return section? I see a sponge at the bottom, then some sort of white foam pad, and then a blue pad on top of that. What exactly is that stuff. And what benefit do you think you get out of it.

And about the use of live rock in the chamber. I know that lots of people put live rock in their fuge. Why would putting live rock in that bubble-trap/chamber be any different really? I'm still just not sure about the idea.

Maybe one of the best uses would be to put carbon filter bags every once in a while.

As you can tell, I'm trying to come up with ideas to utilize these neat little spaces.

[YYZ_125G]

The only reason you may not want to use live rock in the bubble trap is it could clog with detritus and trap air on the under sides of the rock. I have read some things about live rock placed anywhere in sumps collecting detritus because of the dirty environment. Something about the bacteria in the rock being unable to keep up with the load. I don’t know if there is any validity to it. I’ll look around and see if I can find the discussion for you.

As for my media
On top is BlueBond, it is a filter media commonly used in canister filters. I am using it to pre-filter and collect detritus. Any kind of filter media will work well for this.

On the bottom I am using a coarse sponge to support what is above and even out the water flow. I am going to replace that with an egg crate self like in your sump.

Sandwiched between is “Poly Filter� it is a material to absorb organics, heavy metals, and phosphate. I use “Poly Filter� instead of activated carbon because carbon can strip your water of trace elements and won’t touch phosphate. I don’t have an RO/DI unit just well water. Even though my water tests zero for copper, nitrate, and phosphate I feel better knowing heavy metals won’t be accumulating in my tank. “Poly Filter� has been around forever and has a good reputation. Even after three months my phosphate level is still zero.

Almost all the aquarium stores carry it. Here is a link to the company’s site.

http://www.poly-bio-marine.com/polyprod.htm

[johns]

Interesting. I have heard of the poly filters mentioned before. Just didn't know exactly what they were. Sounds like a good alternative to carbon then. Do you run that stuff 24/7?

I have also been wondering about phosphates because I'm starting out without a DI/RO unit either. I tested the water I will be adding and it was undetectable. But I dont know how that'll change once I get started. But there was some organic material in my source water according to the salifert test. I have treated water, it goes through a carbon filter in our home (this removes chlorine and I dont know what else), then goes through a water softener equipped with additional chlorine removal material (something called Chloristat). I'm hoping that I dont have chlorine after all that, but I didnt test it.

Do you typically have to de-chlorinate your water?

I'm not very happy with the salifert organics test I bought. I dont know if you're familiar with the test. You add drops of this liquid and look for a very faint color change. If you add one drop supposedly your ok, 2 drops and you 'might' have a problem, 3 drops or more and you are more and more likely to have a problem. So if you go just from 1 drop to 2 drops you go from good to potentially bad. That's it, no other numbers associated, no nothing. Of course, I had to add 2 drops. So I 'might' have a problem. Gee, I thought I 'might' have a problem even before I did the test!

Maybe I need to find a better organics test. In the meantime maybe something like those polyfilters would help me there too?

If you find that info on the live rock in the sump, I'd love to see it. thanks

[thedogofwar]

thats why I say you need to filter it.

that filter media looks just like what I get from PetSmart, the stuff I mentioned "cut to fit"

and the coarse stuff looks just like the Fluval media available there too.

hope it all works out well.

[YYZ_125G]

Johns, I run the poly filter 24/7 for now. I may try using it less but I am not sure I want to mess with something that is working.

I don't have to worry about chlorine since I have well water. Only municipal water supplies are chlorinated.

I haven’t heard of the organics test you mentioned. I read some about TDS meters. The problem I have with total dissolved solids is higher levels don’t have to be bad. There is a lot of calcium in my water, that would cause a high TDS reading but calcium is good for the reef. I was thinking of taking my water to some place like Culigan and see what they say.

I couldn’t find those posts about the live rock sump thing. I think they were in the “Who goes without sand bed just bare bottom� or “Bomber’s starboard reef� thread. Both are huge discussions, makes it hard to find a few posts.

[johns]

YYZ-

Do you treat your water with anything at all before you add to the aquarium then?

I'm currently trying to figure out if I should use the softened water or the hard before before the softener. DO you know anything about this?

[YYZ_125G]

I don't treat or filter just mix with Instan Ocean. I use hard water for the higher calcium.

My well is down over 80 feet, we actually live on a stream and there is an artesian spring about 200 feet from the house. I would like to believe my water is above standard.

[waterlily]

I've been using well water in my tank for a long time. Works great for fish only, but it has a high total alkalinity and will not hold calcium in solution. I would not use my water before it goes through the softener because it has a lot of iron in it. I can't imagine that's good for the fish or anything else.

[xxaquanutxx]

YYZ.. what is the red 5gallon bucket for?

[YYZ_125G]

Make up water.