a sad future for the hobby?

[uberReefer]

Twenty years ago you could buy the leafy sea-dragon, probably the most stunning fish you will ever see. Partly because of over-collection, you can't anymore.

I have this sad premonition that the next generation of aquarists will have a more limited choice of livestock, because of greedy petstores and clueless customers. The other day I saw someone buy a mandarin for a 5G uncycled tank because it was so cute. That poor fish has 2 weeks to live, max.

The hobbyist population grows, but wild populations don't keep pace. It's only a matter of time before more fish become unavailable. I think it's inevitable.

[NicoleC]

In all fairness, the blame for dwindling reefs of the world do not rest soley, or even strongly, on the shoulders of aquarium keepers. Pollution and tourism does far more damage. Oil spills, jet skis, agricultural run-off and more poisons the water. The jewelry and knick-knack trade decimates the sea horse population to dry them and sell them in beach souvenier shops... along with urchins, starfish, nautilus' and lots more.

Want to save a bit of the reef? Frag a coral today, and choose fish bred in captivity. Or better yet, learn to raise those fry that no one knows how to yet.

[Simbo18]

It is true, our hobby WILL be limited. No doubt about it, but that is why we need to trade frags and become more advance in the breeding field. Mandrians are capable of being bred, it's just a matter of time befor someone accidentaly finds the way out of all our failed attempts to bread them. And I know it's hard to watch such a beautiful animal go to a tank like that; makes you want to walk over there and hit them in there face..... but you were once them and all you can do is inform them.
It's too bad that humans kill everything they enjoy.

:wildone:Luke:wildone:

[Pineapple House]

Want to save a bit of the reef? Frag a coral today, and choose fish bred in captivity. Or better yet, learn to raise those fry that no one knows how to yet.
Nicole,
I cannot agree with you more! Coral propogation is an excellent way to help save the reefs from over collection. Aquacultured specimins is the best way to go, and ORA offers great captive raised fish. I also agree with you that the aquarium hobby is not soley responsible for the damaged (or destroyed) reefs. Global warming, pollution, elimination of invertibrates, coral, or fish, etc. also greatly effect the reefs. There are many factors effecting the reefs and you cannot blame one of these factors for the complete reason for reefs becoming much more limited. Unfortunatly, I agree with you that within the next 20 years, unless something changes for the better, our hobby is going to be greatly impacted. We've done so much damage to marine life within the past 50 years. I can only imagine what would hapen in another 50 years if this continues.

Graham

[David M]

uberReefer - You should know that you are not alone in your thinking, there are thousands of us who see the future quite clearly. As mentioned above there are an amazing number of aquacultured corals already supporting the hobby and the list of aquacultured fish is cotinually growing. I work with shrimp and seahorses. Others invest their time and $ in other species. Rather than cry the blues why not get involved with marine aquacultue? It is a fascinating and challenging aspect of the hobby and best suited to people like you who seem to be concerned about the future.
- David Mulcahy, Seahorse Aquatics

[rmendis]

Twenty years ago you could buy the leafy sea-dragon...

I agree that we should do more to protect our natural reefs. As mentioned in the earlier posts, aquaculture is definitely helping in this regard. However, I think that it's a good thing we can't buy a leafy sea-dragon in the LFS. Those creatures cannot be kept in closed systems, and should be left in the sea.

[Revstarky]

As a hobbyist, I've come to realise just how quickly corals do grow under the right conditions. They have evolve to possess chemical weapons to fight for thier place in the sun, to ward off the advance of the crowding hordes seeking to displace them. I believe the decline of the worlds reefs is the result of far more sinister forces than the occasional nicks we hobbyists inflict.

[frink]

Our hobby may be the only ark for reef orgainisms in the forseeable future. things will get much worse for the tropical reef . Some estimates predict extinction in as little as 20 years. (Sorry I can`t reference this statement, maybe Eric B. )

[diverrad]

I agree with everyone the best thing we can do is frag, trade and grow our own, before long if the destruction of coral reefs continues witch it will legislation will follow prohibiting collection of wild species which in my eyes may not be a bad idea, and I don’t mean collection just for our hobby collection for any purpose. I have been working on a documentary piece on the degradation of the Florida keys reefs and it's a 5 year project I have been at it for the lat 2 years and have documented on video the destruction of the reefs the sad part is the losses have been greated in the last 2 years than I would have expected to be in 5 years, sad to say much of the damage is due to divers when you compare the places that diver go to one that are hard to get to such as the dry Tortugas which I am using as a comparison it is really scary.

[David M]

I started a thread on Seahorse.org recently, this was the opening post:

I made a trip to LA yesterday. I went to a new place, a (dead) coral and shell wholesaler. I went there for sand, what I saw made me sick. The big problem with having access to these wholesale operations is seeing how brutal the trade really is. There were 10 of those 200 gallon grey bins the lfs use to cure rock. Each one was packed with freshly imported coral soaking in bleach. If it wasn't for the smell of bleach I'm sure the smell from the rotting coral would make you puke. There were pallets upon pallets of dead staghorn and elkhorn sitting in the sun. There were thousands of dead & dried starfish, conch shells, sea fans and other "decorative" creatures. Wow, it really makes you think.

Then I went to a couple of the fish places. I saw at least 500 mature green mandarins. My guess is that maybe 5 have a chance. I saw 50 or more orbic batfish, now there is a practicle aquarium fish for your 29 or 55. I doubt a single one is going to survive. 100's of various groupers, sharks, those yellow striped jacks- all get [I]way[I] too big for most tanks. It just amazes me, there are dozens of species imported and sold that have no chance whatsoever in home aquaria. Why? Oh yeah, because uneducated morons BUY them. There are thousands of tangs. How many hobbyists have 300+ gallon tanks? There are blue spot stingrays, public aquariums can't keep them alive. Damn, it is starting to bug me.

[diverrad]

you know perhaps there is something we can do if we all abnd together perhaps we can put some pressure on the impoters and perhaps even the goverments involved , I mean we have quite a few people here and many quite capable.

[Simbo18]

How would you go about doing something like this??

:wildone:Luke:wildone:

[diverrad]

I would be more than happy putting together a PSA, I already have most of the footage needed all we would need is some sort of celebery, and I may have some access to them as well

[Simbo18]

PSA=???

And why would a celeberty be needed?

:wildone:Luke:wildone:

[diverrad]

PSA = Public Service Announcement (they tend to be free to put on TV)


Most people tend to be lets say less than interested if something has no visible direct affect on them and living in a society where moronic celebs get to tell their opinions and the mob follows without question a celbs is useful when trying to get a point across now only if Brad Pitt was a reefer.

[Simbo18]

Ah.... I see. How long and how much work would it take to put one of these together??

:wildone:Luke:wildone:

[diverrad]

not sure a 30sec spot is quick to make if I was to do this myself propably about a month but I'm no writer and it would be much better if more people would be willing to donate their time and work on it there are alot of logystics to deal with, booking time, writing it, getting footage of dead and dying sea life to shock pleople, but if a few people got behind this I think we could make some sort of an inpact

[Simbo18]

Well I'm horrible in the english department so writing is out, but I am good when it comes to math and engineering. I don't think I would be much help unless you can find something a highschool student is capable of doing..... Is there anything? My dad is a marine biologist and I'm sure he knows some people that know some more people down in florida. I think one of his friends from the DNR lab goes down to florida in a submersible every summer. Last summer they were studying the impact that the newly introduced lion fish were making on the reef..... and it wasn't good.

:wildone:Luke:wildone:

[David M]

Hold the bus guys, before you go setting up your own "save the reefs" foundation you might want to take a look at the organizations already in place, there are many and they would appreciate your help. These kinds of changes don't come quickly but they do come. In reality reef destruction will probably get worse before it gets better, but it will get better. There are huge industries, large economies and even a few small countries that depend on the status quo. Some of these countries are prime sites for aquaculture but it takes investment. Investment only comes when demand makes it attractive. You want to do something on a "grass roots" level to spur investment? Tell your lfs you are only interested in buying aquacultured corals and fish, and then stick to your commitment. Get enough people to do that and you will see some action.

[diverrad]

I agree but how much has actually been done? how has this helped ? At the current rate of destruction how many years do you think the reefs have? 30..40..50? most likley no more than 50, that may be within my lifetime at this point baby steps will not help. I dont know about you but I have not seen that much awareness withing the general public.

[James Yeung]

diverrad: Would it be okay to post some of those images you're talking about? I'm curious to see how some distributors keep their live stock.

I've seen some really bad wholesalers in the past (they're gone now). I nicked name one 'the slaughter house'. But nothing like what some of you guys described! Horrible!

And 1000 yellow tangs? Wow! The most I've seen was around 200.

James

[David M]

Diver- my point is that WE need to provide an alternative to reef destruction, at least as far as the marine aquarum hobby is concerned. There are many other factors beyond our control but lowering demand for collection is something we can do through aquaculture. I lived in St Thomas for 12 years. There is a huge charter industry in the Caribbean. Total morons can charter a "bareboat" and drop anchor anywhere they want. Literally thousands of anchors are dropped on acropra reefs evey year and rip huge swaths through as they drag to set. There are organizations that generate funding for moorings, that is one example of the kind of "in place" structures I am talking about. There are now many manufacturers of synthetic corals. In a post above I mentioned a dead coral wholesaler- the aquarium trade is not their only customer- these corals are sold as "decorations" on a regular basis. By supporting the manufacturers of synthetic corals we help them to bring costs down and become more competetive. This in turn relieves pressure on collection. Look at an organization like Project Seahorse, a pitbull on steroids to be sure that makes PETA look tame, but they do have some good ideas. Retrain collectors to become breeders, it makes perfect sense but takes investment. So here we are full full circle, inspire the investment.

You say "baby steps", I say progress. In the late 70's I made a pretty good living taming and training wild caught hookbills (parrots, macaws and cockatoos). By the mid 80's the importation restrictions were so great that we all thought no one would ever have a pet bird again. Today you can walk in to any pet shop in the country and find a wide variety of these birds, all domestically bred. How did we breed them? WE HAD TO :D

[uberReefer]

Some of you are talking about aquaculturing corals, but what about breeding fish? Breeding fish is far more difficult than asexual coral propagation, yet it's more important because most hobbyists are more interested in fish than corals. Most marine tanks are FO. Breeding some fish, like tangs, would probably require a 10,000 G tank just for starters because of the way they "mate". Such captive bred fish would be accessible only to the wealthiest, due to the cost of raising them. So in the future, average hobbyists will only be able to afford clowns, cardinals and seahorses. Imagine a $1000 yellow tang.

I agree that aquaculturing is a good way to save corals. Last year I set up a mini-reef with only frags, except for a brain. There are still some inverts that cannot be fragged, like brains, anemones and clams. Sadly, I don't think people will learn how to propagate them commercially until it's almost too late. I.e, when their exportation is restricted like the sea dragon.

[craigroxburgh]

dont foget the increasing global sea temp....

[Paul B]

If you go to the poorer islands like Jamaica or Martinique you can still see literally tons of dead coral skeletons drying in the sun for the tourist trade. It is illegal even there but the people are starving and need the income. I saw a man there very early in the morning fishing with a land hermit crab for breakfast for his kids that were with him. That is a normal life in a poor island. On another island I saw a man pulling in one of his large fish traps with an assortment of lookdowns, wrasses, moray eels and all sorts of beautiful expensive fish. He was selling them for $2.00 a pound. What he could not sell just rotted on the beach, he just pushed some sand on them. These huge fish traps are all over the Caribbean. These people have to eat and they take far fewer fish than the major fisheries here in the North.
I am not blaming these people, that is just life there. But there is so much unused land, or I should say shallow ocean that is not just underutilized, it is unused. I know most people think there is not much uncivilized land near the sea left but they are wrong. If you do much flying in the tropics you will see many islands with no civilization and thousands of miles of shallow ocean. If you go to the South Pacific you will even see more. It would be great if someone could use some of these areas for coral, live rock and fish hatcheries. Of course the problem is that these areas are inaccesable thats why they are isolated. I don't think the problem is hobbiests or hungry people it's just supply and demand, Right now it's still cheaper to trap fish than raise them, thats why we still trap lobster instead of raising them. When we run out of lobster we will raise them along with the price. It is something we will have to live with. We will always have this hobby but it will get very expensive.

[Scuba Dog]

In jamaca the run off water is whyping out the reefs , the nitrogen based fertilizers, dumping out in a reef a bad bad combo........

[slojim]

on the topic of captive bred, I am getting ready to set up a FOWR. Anyone know where there is a list of available captive bred fish?

[diverrad]

slojim live aquaria has a nice selection

[MiddletonMark]

So does Premium Aquatics ... and I'm sure a number of other plcaes. It takes more looking ... but worth it.

I'd also talk to your LFS about getting captive-bred fish. A couple LFS around here are stocking them ... and it's catching on more and more.

[Coral Dilema]

The Leafy Sea Dragon, as seen at Ripley's Aquarium in Gatlinsburg, TN. We just visited there this past weekend and it was great. I was disappointed that they only had one small section dedicated to live coral (looked like about a 350 gallon tall tank) but it was a great place. My pictures all came out unfocused, im still having trouble with this camera. I had to turn the flash off to get any good pictures but then the shutter was open so long that I couldnt hold the camera still long enough. I think I need to buy a monopod or unipod or whatever those things are called.

[David M]

Uber- actually I think you would stunned to see the list of fish species that have been successfuuly bred and raised in captivity, it goes way beyond clownfish and seahorses. I'm looking for a link to the list and will post it here. Dozens, maybe more than 100 species with new ones being added all the time. It's not that it can't be done, it just isn't "cost effective" when compared to capturing wild fish. There are already more than enough species on ther list to keep the hobby alive and interesting. And if tangs cost $1000 that would be great because then noobs would stop buying them for 29 gallon tanks :D

Anyway all that space that Paul talks about is your "10,000 gallon tank" . And then some.

Yea, "potfish". Nothing like seeing a 12" french angel lying the sand at $2 a pound. As Paul said, it's how people make a living. I have friends that are trappers, I don't like it but it is their livelyhood. You can't just make them stop, you have to offer an alternative.

[prezioso73]

tagging along...
as long as there is a demand, the imports will not stop.

[cuongvynguyen]

Essentially all this boils down to overpopulation of people.

If the people continue to massively harvest and destroy the reef they have no future. If they do not then they have no present.

Touch choices if you ask me.

[katspaw]

I was at a local pet store to get cat food today, and they have a small saltwater section. In there maint ank they have a stingray. I put a deposit on it, then when I got home today I contacted the Aquarium in my state. I have a 410 system with a large empty area of sand, so I know I will be able to house the ray safely for a few days til the aquarium can get back to me as to weither or not they will take the ray. I will be donating the ray in my clubs name. If the Aquarium does take him, I have contacted a friend that has over a 1000 gallon system, that can and will take him til we can find a Aquarium that will. I also pointed out to the manager that the ray would die in most people's aquairum as no one in this area has a big enough system. So far they always have very large specimen of fish such as lier tailed Naso's and giant purple tangs ( roughy 7 inches each) At least this ray is an atlantic one and is eating sprimp and silversides. And the manager assured me they wouldn't be buying this type of animal anymore. It was messing up their tank too much. Now if I could convince him to stay away from huge tangs. Why do I torture myself by going into these places. :confused:

Tracey

[Danielle]

Awesome katspaw. I wish more reefers could do that, better yet- I wish the stores that do carry these animals would stop doing so. As you said, the average hobbiest doesn't have the right conditions for the animals to thrive in, so why are they imported at all?

Danielle

[ReeferMac]

Originally posted by uberReefer
I agree that aquaculturing is a good way to save corals. Last year I set up a mini-reef with only frags, except for a brain. There are still some inverts that cannot be fragged, like brains, anemones and clams. Sadly, I don't think people will learn how to propagate them commercially until it's almost too late. I.e, when their exportation is restricted like the sea dragon.

My 230-gallon tank is nothing but frags, and almost all of them captive raised by myself and other hobbiests. Including my Red Brain and E. Quadricolor Anemone. I know of a couple people that have asexually reproduced carpet anemone's... Clams I think we won't be able to frag however. ;)But there are farming practices taking hold. I agree that there is some progress to be found here, and a PSA would be a nice way to help educate the public, but rather than add one more voice to the noise level, it could be better directed (and funded, and supported, and published) if work was done _with_ some of the organizations out there already involved.

Morgan Lidster from InlandAquatics gave a presentation at last years Midwest Marine Conference detailing the fish that are captively bred, and had positive things to say. A lot aren't commercially viable yet, but available if so desired (and driving up that demand, will increase the commercial viability). If interested in something specifc try contacting him.

- Mac

[Foster]

I recently purchased a great DVD that gos into whys, and what is being done to prevent the damage to coral reefs. I highly recomend this DVD....
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000YED1S/qid=1075917012//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl74/002-1405112-9446410?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846

[Paul B]

ReeferMac, Clams are farmed, as a matter of fact just about any tridacna clam you see will be a farmed clam. They grow them to eat and for the aquarium hobby.

[pixburg-reefer]

Yep I have the living sea. Great DVD. And I do think that we should try to get involved with other organizations out their already. A lot of people don't even know what a coral is, SOME don't even know the difference between the salt and fresh water. Though you find that to be a "yeah right, how can you NOT know the difference" I was in a lfs this past week, and the guy wanted to know if he could put the "nemo and dori" in the same 10 gallon fresh water tank for his kids. Well, the guy that works their is very knowledgeable, so he led the guy in the correct direction.
Anyway, we need to find SOME way to inform the public. I know it probably won't help much, but I'm in 9th grade, and I have speech as a class. We get to pick a subject that we want to inform the class about, and I am definitely going to inform them about the ocean, and show that living sea DVD. I am also going to pass around a book, that has pictures about what we are doing to the ocean.
But, informing 25 other students is better than nothing. I don't know if we will ever be able to turn around our dying reefs, and fix all of the toxic chemicals that has already been DUMPED into the ocean. But i totally agree with
"frag a coral, buy captive raised fish" that is a small step in hopefully preserving our hobby.
This sorta goes along with this thread, but Eric hugo is starting to do a research on the elegance coral, and why 5 years ago it would do so well in the home aquaria, and now, it has a horrible survival rate, kind of like the goniopora. Here is the site

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2364664#post2364664

if this site doesn't work, it is under the coral forum, under "the elegance coral project"
It is very interesting and is looking for people to help.
I hope their is some way we can affect the collection of corals. Otherwise, as said before, our aquariums may be the only shelter for what inverts. and fish that are left.
Kelly

[crpeck]

We are trying to organize exactly the kind of project you all are talking about here.

First, we're starting with the Elegance Coral. But if this project has enough support, Eric would like to keep going on other corals with similar life expectancy problems. This hobby needs to get behind the people who have the ability to figure out answers to some of these problems.

Please check out the article in this month's Reefkeeping Magazine (off of the RC home page) on the Elegance Coral Project.

Also, information on the project is at: www.reefobsession.com/ecp

We are just now debating whether there is enough interest or support to set up a formal nonprofit to keep this research going. If so, we could fund an number of reef research projects beyond even Eric's coral projects.

To use a corny expression ... a long journey starts with a single step. The first step has been started. Eric has specimens of Elegance coral and has begun his research. We have so far gotten $570 in support from RC members to fund this research.

We can keep this going and take it to the next level if we have more support.

Thanks for taking the time to check out the article and our website.

Cathy Peck

[prop-frags]

Attention Moderator:
This would be a great for the "responsible reefkeeping" forum.

I am so torn by the concepts discussed here. The marine aquarist will likely be the savior for many of the species destined to be made extinct by the very hobby in which we participate.

[moflow]

my current system is all frags, no collected colonies. i just can't justify taking a chance on a wild colony that could RTN on me or change color to a nice shade of brown when there are tons of sites w/ great variety of frags out there. if a frag dies, (hopefully) the parent colony is around to provide another frag. if the wild colony dies, its gone forever.
we are lucky enough to be in this hobby at a time that we can fill our tanks completely w/ aquacultured animals. as people have said above, collection will continue as long as there is a demand. the way to stop that demand is to simply not buy the product. i for one would rather pay more for aquacultured vs wild caught.

[crpeck]

Here's a quote from Eric Borneman regarding the need for research on collected corals such as the Elegance:


"If I had a dollar for every time I hear an hobbyist talk about how the reef hobby doesn't harm the reefs, and how we care about them, and how they want to conserve them. Well, this is a rare and overcollected coral that is dying en masse by our hand. No other significant source of mortality exists for Catalaphyllia in the wild that is known about. We are its predator.

I often tell people that "Hey, we hobbyists don't help reefs, and although we could, all the bad press we get is largely true because we take millions of corals every year and kill them - whether we mean to, or not." Best wishes aside, our net effect is negative. Things like this - giving back and not just taking - are the sort of concrete contributions that put more than words behind those claims."

The "things like this" he mentions is the Coral Research project we are trying to put together.

I hope you all will check out the website: www.reefobsession.com/ecp and pass the word to as many people as you know in the hobby.

Thanks!
Cathy

[crpeck]

Sorry duplicate post