Booooooooo

[Bravodelta]

What more to say... a great thread closed, and two great reefers who will be sorely missed in this forum.

Bulldog

[gregt]

[moved]

I suggest you read this post carefully.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2318332#post2318332

[rdvab]

OK you guys that have sites and sell frags ...You are selling frags and you also have a discussion forum.You also sell sponsorship banners or possibly not .I have frags to sell and post my pics and my site on your discussion forum... Is this Fair to you as a vendor on your own site ?
Just a thought
Ron

[robwsup]

Actually yes it is. I have a forum on my site just for that purpose. It is free for any vendor. It's about the hobbyiest and the corals, not about the $$$ all the time.

[musicsmaker]

I'm not sure of what exactly happened, but I say this:

The thread being closed in itself was a good thing for the zoanthid forum. It was taking away from the forum itself. There are a lot of people that know their zoa's that only posted in that thread for the most part. It was like the whole forum was dedicated to that thread.

[robwsup]

I can see that MusicMaker. That thread had lots of good info, but was intimidating to try to actually find specific info in. It's the passing of an era I guess.

[Jus Reefin]

The best info comes from a friendly community. Without threads like that RC would be in my rear view Mirror and is on it's way there

[Will]

So if we can't post pics of great livestock from great vendors, what purpose does the Feedback Forum even hold? Come on, that's crazy.

Like Rob said, this is a forum, not a store. Showing off pics of a nice coral certainly should warrant that "Where'd you get it?" question, and there's no reason that question should go unanswered. And answering that question, in my view, is in no way like Nagel's metaphor. If, for example, someone went on Rob's store's webforum and posted pics from Joe's Great Zoo Farm (err, whatever..), yeah, I could understand people being upset.

But how can anyone limit word-of-mouth advertising on a free forum? In my opinion, that is unacceptable. If we can't share information on good vendors, then we shouldn't be able to share information on good practices or good livestock choices or good tank setups or anything else along those lines, right? So I guess we should all just quit giving each other advice altogether.

Reef Central and the moderators/administrators who represent it should not be influencing the opinions of its users on what vendors are good and bad, and note that I said good and bad. Telling us that we cannot cite good experiences or show off nice livestock and credit the vendor from which it came is certainly, in my view, an attempt to influence the members.

My post is probably not coherent at all, but I think I speak for all of the members here when I ask that RC and its representatives keep their hands free of the spread of information from hobbyist to hobbyist. What good is a web forum if its users are not allowed to share their experiences?
-Will

[Nagel]

Simply put:

We don't let sponsors hawk ther wares like this

So there's certainly no reason for non-sponsors to be allowed to either.

What's wrong with a PM asking where things came from? Who knows, some people COULD make some friends that way. PLUS its abiding by the rules.

I mean, seriously, HALF the pics in the zoanthid forum are SHILL posts for a vendor who is giving nothing back to the community. Sure, they post pretty pictures, but the sad part is its the USERS to suffer. When RC was slow, everybody complained. Now if these vendors were supporting the site, server upgrades would happen faster, users would be happier and everything would be hunky-dory. But I can't for the life of me figure out why people would support other individuals who take advantage of a free resource, while at the same time inconveniencing them! The best part too is that they are making money hand and fist, by abusing the free resource and also by having you rally their cause! At least be paid or get something if you wanna work for someone, but why people want to allow themselves to be used just makes no sense to me!

'nuff said!

[Will]

Originally posted by Nagel
but why people want to allow themselves to be used just makes no sense to me!

I agree, and I think that's why some people have left.
-Will

[carribeanlovers]

:D

I think the actions of RC lately has been completely hilarious. The bigger they get the less can be said on the forums. Almost 90% of the threads on here somehow promote/advertise vendors. When someone asks questions on care, etc. for corals/fish one of the first responses by other members is to check out online store websites(i.e. liveaquaria). OOPS!! I just advertised:)
Does this mean that RC will go through every post and start closing them down? I think not, they only close threads that shows members what is really happening. Personally I think if there is a problem then it should be addressed by warnings not banning immidately or by closing threads. This means also for admin/moderators not to come into the posts and claim a certain member was already warned when they weren't.
By the way RC - I sell items here on the selling forum - does this mean I have to purchase vendor banners and post myself in the vendor section before somone can talk to me or someone else about my items? Sounds stupid doesn't it? That is what this whole thing about supposed advertising sound like too.
Just my opinion:rolleyes:

[DensityMan]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please let this die. Agree to disagree already.

Speaking from personal experience, being a 'Mod/Admin' is a thankless job on the best days and on the 'bad' days it just doesn't seem to be worth it at all. There are rules. We all signed off on those rules when we registered here.

I'm not real 'happy' that the thread in question was closed, but it's not going to keep me away from a great source of reef knowledge and a massive collection of other reefers. The thread had a long leash for a long time and none of us non-admins know what was happening or what was said in PM's back and forth.

I'll miss the members who were banned and keep in contact with them elsewhere hopefully, but all the negative crap being slung around is getting tiresome.

Read the UA. Take a deep breath. Then PM a mod/admin and thank them for keeping the reigns on 2000+ active members in a forum with well over a million posts...

Even I cringed when Milli announced his new site was open for business and I really like posting back and forth with him. I've also thoroughly enjoyed and oggled at many zoanthids of his.

So remember - deep breaths... inhale... exhale... etc...


And if it is just too much for 'you' then go. Just try not to burn any bridges on your way out; crow tastes bad no matter how you try to season it... ;)

[zeppelin]

Well, at least I'll get to post an opinion before this thread gets closed too. I went back to that thread everytime I was notified of an update. Didn't always post something, as you can see by my post count, but always read what was going on. I got some GREAT information, saw some stellar pics, and met some stellar people. Some of which WERE venders, but MOST of which were not. I think I've been a part of that thread since about page 50 or so. Cant say I ever had the opinion that any venders were abusing the thread. Most of the pics that said they were from a certain vender were from a hobbyist, myself included, that picked up some nice stuff and wanted to share. We would let each other know when a favorite site updated, and showed our envy when we got beat out for a certain piece. All in good community fun. That thread was one of the coolest threads I have ever been a part of in any forum, including the car oriented forums I participate in.

One Mod comment sticks out to me, something about us "whining". And another about why we are making such a big deal about a thread, "its just a thread". If any of us accused a Mod of "whining", we would immediately be "WARNED" about our "behavior", and possibly banned if it continued. Yet, a Mod can add all the inconsiderate remarks he or she feels like, with absolutely no consequences. In the three or four threads that got closed following the zoo pics thread being closed, I read many more inconsiderate, and inappropriate remarks from the various Mods than I read from any of the hobbyists voicing their opinions. If it was "just a thread", there wouldn't be this much attention being made. In the scheme of this fine website, youre probably right, its just a thread. But it was THE thread for allot of us, as we learned about this coral we are so into. Seems to me like it turned into a ****ing contest between the Mods and the Venders in the end, and we the hobbyists are the ones that got peed on. We lost two very knowlegeable members in Milli and Bryan, as well as a watering hole for many of us to gather around. Just a thread? Whatever you say.

Sure hope this doesn't get me "warned", but, ya never know.
Larry :cool:

[carribeanlovers]

Originally posted by zeppelin
If any of us accused a Mod of "whining", we would immediately be "WARNED" about our "behavior", and possibly banned if it continued. Yet, a Mod can add all the inconsiderate remarks he or she feels like, with absolutely no consequences. If it was "just a thread", there wouldn't be this much attention being made. In the scheme of this fine website, youre probably right, its just a thread. Seems to me like it turned into a ****ing contest between the Mods and the Venders in the end, and we the hobbyists are the ones that got peed on. We lost two very knowlegeable members in Milli and Bryan, as well as a watering hole for many of us to gather around. Just a thread? Whatever you say.

I have to agree. I was not part of this thread because to be honest I really didn't know about it and I have just got into being a zoo keeper (that sounds funny:). But I have to agree with zepplin and many others. These threads are made for not only informational purposes but for friends with a common interest to be able to converse between eachother. Not to have people (mods,admin) come in a be p%$&y about opinions.

[gregt]

The rules have not changed for some time. Threads are not closed if the participants follow the rules. Threads are closed if the participants don't follow the rules. If participants repeatedly violate the rules they are banned.

It's as simple as that.

The thread is still there. The forum is still there. No information has been lost. Nothing has been taken away. Threads are closed all the time all over this forum. It's life. Things don't always go as we would like them to. But, practically speaking, nothing has changed. Go back to the forum and continue to post as always (assuming you weren't one of the ones breaking the rules).

[Jovreefer]

I have just starting reading all the complaints about this thread closing. I have not visited that thread in forever, but I did when it first started and it was great. I have a few comments to add... and a question for the mods.

People I hate to be the devils advocate but, dont be harsh to the mods that banned these people and shut down the thread. They are trying to keep peace here, they dont get paid, they do it for the love of the hobby and trying to help others in love with the hobby. We ALL read the terms of agreement when we got our user names. It should come as no shock that if we are repeatedly warned and dont listen that we get banned. Yea it sucks we lost some good people, but they should have taken it to pm's if they really were not trying to advertize their own busness... now if they were just speading good word of mouth from a vendor they bought from.. then I have issues with them being banned, but it does not sound like thats what happened.

my question for the Mods is, Since this is causing such an uproar, why not just delete every post that is advertizing, and from these banned people, then re-open the thread? this would definatly end all the arguments. just a sugestion...

[dellrio]

awesome suggestions.. MORE THAN FAIR!

[musicsmaker]

They would be deleting hundreds of posts.

[rdvab]

There is anew thread started for posting Zoo pics and I am sure it will be just as good as the first , if everybody will just let this go and join in .If ya wanna know where something came from PM.
Ron

[griss]

[i]my question for the Mods is, Since this is causing such an uproar, why not just delete every post that is advertizing, and from these banned people, then re-open the thread? this would definatly end all the arguments. just a sugestion... [/B]
Honestly, that was what we were considering when the whole uproar started. The time it took to respond to all the wild accusations of conspiracies, wore thin rather quickly. I, for one, was initially all for removing the problems posts and opening the thread again......at first.

Then, all the complaining and insults started coming our way. On at least one occasion a Mod stated that people can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. But his was promply ignored by people and more insults were directed our way:confused:

Why in the world would people think we would take on the very time consuming task of removing all those posts (and believe me, it could take the better part of a day to do so) for people who show their gratitude for the time we volunteer here with nothing more than threats and insults?

The insults and the way certain individuals continued to attack and verbally abuse the staff here was the final straw for me (and I bet serveral other Mods) and the cause to reinstate the thread without the problems posts quickly lost my support.

In fact, in the time it took us responding to those posts, we probably could have already removed the problem posts and opened the thread up again.

I am not saying there is no chance that thread will be opened again, but we will have to see. If it is not opened, the thread will still be there for you to view and a new thread can be started with pics of Zoanthids, in fact, another thread has already been started in the Zoanthid forum.

I want to thank all of you who have remained calm and rational through all of this. I understand that some people have gotten angry over the whole situation, but let's put that behind us and move forward. After all, we are all here for a common interest....our love of keeping reef aquaria, right?

George

[Nagel]

:thumbsup:

Well Said George.

My sentiments exactly...

[Treeman]

Well, I guess I will beat the dead horse a little bit more.

I was with that thread from the very beginning through the whole thing. And yes, some of the posts were to commercial. But I would have to say that more than half of the commercial posts were from RC sponsers themselves. And there was not as many warnings to them, at least not in public.

Well, I have lots more to say but this just sucks and I type as slow as mollasses on a cold winter day. So thats it.

Keep on reefing. :)

[holeinone1972]

Originally posted by Treeman


Well, I have lots more to say but this just sucks and I type as slow as mollasses on a cold winter day. So thats it.

Keep on reefing. :)

Hey cold, what are you talking about? You live in Florida

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[JJM]

cut the MOD's a break , its a free board , and they are donating their time ....geeze

[Treeman]

Originally posted by JJM
cut the MOD's a break , its a free board , and they are donating their time ....geeze

I respect the MOD's for their volunteering. That is something that I just don't have the heart for. But if they are going to enforce the no advertising on threads it should not be selective. Some of these threads are completly crazy. And not the zoo pic thread, Treat everybody the same.

I for one, would not have been unhappy to pay a couple of dollars a year for the service. That would be quite a bit of $ to upgrade servers etc. But you know whats funny? It was stated by a MOD in the other feedback thread that the zoo pic thread was using up so much room on the server that it was causing some of the "server busy" messages (that is not verbatim) and why would everybody be defending them. If thats so, Why did I get that message 3-4 times last night?

Originally posted by holeinone1972
Hey cold, what are you talking about? You live in Florida



But it is cold :D It got into the 40's last night!!!!

[Nagel]

just to clarify,

1. I never said nor implied the zoo thread took up too much of the servers resources. I was merely making the point that if we let non-sponsors advertise like this, what value does having a sponsorship give to a vendor? None at all. Without them sponsors, RC would be going nowhere really fast.

Second, maybe we were a little relaxed in the zoo forum regarding some individuals, but we also feel that sometimes people deserve a second chance. Some people had way more then their share, and in retrospect, banning them after their second or third warning might have diffused the situation.

What you guys don't see is the behind the scenes junk, The complaints of commercial postings, time and again, by the same members, with the same members constantly pushing the limits or breaking rules. Had millisec been banned on his second warning, he would have been gone a long time ago, and this situation just would have happened earlier rather then now. Its a little tiring dealing with the accusations of favortism, censorship and the like when most members don't even know 10% of the story.

[holeinone1972]

Originally posted by Treeman


But it is cold :D It got into the 40's last night!!!!

40!!!!!! 40!!!!!!!! 40!!!!!!!!

Wow, 40 is freekin golf weather around here. LOL

Rob

OK, can we all concentrate on a new subject, something like Hey this is by far the best hobby around.

Or, how about we send all of Duluth's 4ft of snow to Florida, and then see them scatter.

:D

Peace!

Rob

[Nagel]

Originally posted by holeinone1972
Or, how about we send all of Duluth's 4ft of snow to Florida, and then see them scatter.


I'm all for that man... Now just how do you plan the logistics of such an event?

They can even have the foot of snow in my yard, making it a total of 5 feet....

[griss]

Originally posted by Treeman
But if they are going to enforce the no advertising on threads it should not be selective. Some of these threads are completly crazy. And not the zoo pic thread, Treat everybody the same.
Matt, we really do try our best to not be selective. However, we all have full time jobs and most of us have families besides volunteering our time here. With the amount of posts we have here, it is impossible for us to review each and every post.

That said, if you see a post that you believe is commercial, feel free to click on the button at the bottom of that post titled, "Report this post to a Moderator." This will notify us of the post and we will take the appropriate action. You are also more than welcome to PM any of us to report such a post as well.

The issue with the Zoanthid thread, was generated by just such an instance. Repeated reported posts from members about commercial posting in that thread. People were warned and chose not to abide by the User Agreement. Therefore, we had no choice but to take action.

George

[Jovreefer]

HEY NOW! I live in florida too! I dont want your 4 feet of snow. hince the reason I live in florida.

LOL 40 down here makes everyone stay inside it's so cold.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by Jovreefer


LOL 40 down here makes everyone stay inside it's so cold.

I'm dreaming about the next day it gets up to 40 here.

As for the original intent of this thread, you are just going to have to accept that with as many active members as we have here at RC, there is no possibe way we can please all of the people all of the time. We do everything in our power to do what WE feel is right. There is no doubt that there will be people here that will disagree at times, it's unavoidable.
Consider that you are not aware of everything that leads up to any action taken by the staff here before flying off the handle because you don't like what was done.

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by Nagel
Simply put:


I mean, seriously, HALF the pics in the zoanthid forum are SHILL posts for a vendor who is giving nothing back to the community.


I'm sorry but this quote is the biggest line of bull I have heard to date. The majority of the vendors that were on that thread contributed more knowledge and help to this community then half of the Verbal Slander crap that goes on here all day.

Personnely I think a huge can of worms was opened with shutting down the thread and axing a few people I won't mention. 80% of the post on this board mentions a vendor. so now they will all be closed and there will be nothing.

[rdvab]

Originally posted by Treeman
I respect the MOD's for their volunteering. That is something that I just don't have the heart for. But if they are going to enforce the no advertising on threads it should not be selective. Some of these threads are completly crazy. And not the zoo pic thread, Treat everybody the same.

I for one, would not have been unhappy to pay a couple of dollars a year for the service. That would be quite a bit of $ to upgrade servers etc. But you know whats funny? It was stated by a MOD in the other feedback thread that the zoo pic thread was using up so much room on the server that it was causing some of the "server busy" messages (that is not verbatim) and why would everybody be defending them. If thats so, Why did I get that message 3-4 times last night?



But it is cold :D It got into the 40's last night!!!!

So if you are that willing to donate a few $ have you become a contributing member. It is only $25 a year.
Ron

[musicsmaker]

I have to agree that many of the posts were shill. They were right from the vendors website for crying out loud. Often followed by a "such and such is updating his site".

[youngcoral]

I am looking into becoming a sponsor on this site to promote some of our products that we manufacture. I would be very offended by someone posting their website to profit off my advertising dollar. Take my opinion how you would like. The sponsors of this site are the ones who pay for the server upgrades that help increase membership which gives this site a larger ranking in the web polls. This brings RC more members that have more information and knowledge for all of us to share. If someone doses not take into account how his actions would offend our sponsors I would be more concerned about his business practices then how you defend him.
However we all make mistakes and banning him form the site may have been harsh. Would an apology help bring back a member? Could some one contact the member to see if he would even want to come back.

[DgenR8]

youngcoral,
I believe we are way beyond any hope of reconciliation.

[Jus Reefin]

Reconsile is not an issue. I am trying to understand the Justification for what happened. When Vendors pics were posted is was a pic of something that was ALREADY SOLD, how is that advertising. It's called a Hobbiest being proud of a new coral they are getting and want everyone to share in there joy. No where did it say hey Rob just bought these from me and I have more for sale check them out.

IMO the issue was not investigated it was seen by one person who told another and so on. I am curious to see how post get whacked. 50% of the FS threads are people with there own websites selling corals trying to pay for the hobby.

I won't beat a dead horse any longer. And for the record I would like to say that the Zoo thread was the best Thread ever here. No one was calling any one Stupid for having to small a tank or not eneough lighting. it was good fun, good info and great pics.

[musicsmaker]

I don't see where the governing body of this free online community need to justify anything to anybody. This site is free and nobody is forcing us to post things here. If anyone (myself included) doesn't like the way things happen here, they are free to go somewhere else and talk reefing. I think you will see by the popularity of this site that more people like it enough to stay here than dislike it enough to leave.

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by musicsmaker
I don't see where the governing body of this free online community need to justify anything to anybody. This site is free and nobody is forcing us to post things here. If anyone (myself included) doesn't like the way things happen here, they are free to go somewhere else and talk reefing. I think you will see by the popularity of this site that more people like it enough to stay here than dislike it enough to leave.


Answers like this is one reason RC will remain a forum and NEVER a community. All about the $$$$$$$$ and not the hobby or it's people. But that is just my opinion and 1 out of the millions.

Like I said before RC is a great place for Sales and Trades but not the place for a friendly chat or friendly advise IMO

[holeinone1972]

Originally posted by Jus Reefin
Answers like this is one reason RC will remain a forum and NEVER a community. All about the $$$$$$$$ and not the hobby or it's people. But that is just my opinion and 1 out of the millions.

Like I said before RC is a great place for Sales and Trades but not the place for a friendly chat or friendly advise IMO


Then go someplace else.

It bothers me as a one time sponsor here, and many times advice giver, and all around lover of the hobby and this website, that people come here and complain about it.

No one sits here and just hopes that you sign on, so we can all see you whine. We are here for the love of the hobby. A thread was closed, move on.

People were banned for not following the rules, move on.

Nobody was lynched, there were no mass book burnings, or war crimes, move on.

Quit complaining and go do a water change, your critters will love you for it.

So you know, I say all of this for the love of the hobby, and not to bash you, or make you look bad.

Peace, Now move on!

Rob

[Nagel]

simple question for ya Jus Reefin.

How much do you think it costs to run a site like RC for just one month?

Now, if the site isn't even up, it cannot be a forum or a community.

Its not about the money, god knows the mods arent paid for their work here. We have the rules in place to protect the investment of our sponsors, after all, THEY make this place possible. Without them, this site would be beyond slow , nobody would be here as a result and everyone loses.

Its about following the rules set forth when people sign up. Thats it in a nutshell...

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by holeinone1972
Then go someplace else.

It bothers me as a one time sponsor here, and many times advice giver, and all around lover of the hobby and this website, that people come here and complain about it.

No one sits here and just hopes that you sign on, so we can all see you whine. We are here for the love of the hobby. A thread was closed, move on.

People were banned for not following the rules, move on.

Nobody was lynched, there were no mass book burnings, or war crimes, move on.

Quit complaining and go do a water change, your critters will love you for it.

So you know, I say all of this for the love of the hobby, and not to bash you, or make you look bad.

Peace, Now move on!

Rob


Like I said someone has to always talk ....... what's the point of a Feedback forum if there are no complaints. I was just stating my opinion and you have to be a JACK *** and tell me to leave. Nice Mods we have here very friendly people..... excuse the hell out of me. I sure hope I never bought anything from you if so that was money NOT well Spent. It's a SHAME that when something gets so big they forget about the people that made it that way

[Jus Reefin]

Sorry Nagel but without the Hobbiest this site and the Sponsors would not have jobs

[koikeeper]

Answers like this is one reason RC will remain a forum and NEVER a community

If you don't think this is a community you are sadly mistaken.

The definition of community is a group of people with common interests.

I'd have to say we all have a very common interest. If you no longer feel you share our same interest then by all means "move on".

We share our experiences, post our dilemmas, and share our knowledge here. It does not take long to see if a web site is worth time or effort. I have been in the online fish communities since the mid-90's. Poor attitudes like yours are what put people off. If you really want to be an active member of this community try improving it by answering questions and creating informative posts. Not critisizing the community you are a part of.

Koi Keeper

[Jus Reefin]

I am done arguing with you guys cause you could care less what I have to say. If you are going to inforce rules then enforce them all across the board. I have seen 4 post today that show a vendors pic or a mention of a vendor and they are still there and have been for months. Peace out and Good Luck

[guntruck]

Originally posted by gregt
The rules have not changed for some time. Threads are not closed if the participants follow the rules. Threads are closed if the participants don't follow the rules. If participants repeatedly violate the rules they are banned.

Why was mane3215 banned? He slipped in the zoo thread and was warned, however when he posted his opinion of what happened on the post your zoos here thread (the new one) DJ88 banned him? Can one of the mods tell me why, and look up the thread and see if you find that reason to ban someone?


As for the mods saying that the big zoo thread was "Just a thread", to me it was like a forum, I come to rc many times a day specifically for that thread! I very seldom check any other threads or any other topics, just that one, so to ppl such as myself, that was just shutting down a whole forum, regardless to how anyone looks at it =(.

[Jus Reefin]

Well I said I was done but I'm not one to keep my mouth shut.

First of all Koi keeper have you seen any of my post that I was not helpfull or informative??? Second of all I say a few things on a FEEDBACK forum and now I am the bad guy what gives????? what is the purpose of this forum if it is not to provide feedback. Instead of getting level headed answers or questions I am told to leave. Is that way someone who offers feedback whether it be postitive or negative should be treated????

[Nagel]

Originally posted by Jus Reefin
Sorry Nagel but without the Hobbiest this site and the Sponsors would not have jobs

And without this site, the sponsors would make money elsewhere and the hobbiests wouldn't have such a resource at their fingertips.

Its a reciprocating relationship. Each entity needs the other.

[koikeeper]

Is that way someone who offers feedback whether it be postitive or negative should be treated????

I am sure you would be treated much better if you could refrain from cursing, name-calling, and insulting. You can convey your feelings and get across your point without any of the above. I see a lot of moderators trying to answer your posts as politely and best they can. I then see you mouthing back off to them. You cannot change their opinion no matter how you try. You are just giving feedback of your opinion. It has been heard, I garuntee you that.

2. You need to stop taking things as a direct attack. If you re-read my post you will see I never insinuated you are not helpful, or informative. I just listed those as ways you could keep helping Reef Central to be a better community :)

Koi

[musicsmaker]

Answers like this is one reason RC will remain a forum and NEVER a community. I would argue that it already is a community, and a great one at that. The thing that hurts this community are attacks like the ones you have been littering this thread with.

PS ~ There was no need for name calling.

[Anemone]

Originally posted by Jus Reefin
I am done arguing with you guys cause you could care less what I have to say. If you are going to inforce rules then enforce them all across the board. I have seen 4 post today that show a vendors pic or a mention of a vendor and they are still there and have been for months. Peace out and Good Luck

As has been mentioned before, if you feel a post is in violation, use the "report this post" button.

We actually do care what you say. However, statements such as
Well that thread and the sales forum is the only thing that kept me at RC. Those guys were @$$e$ from day one in my book.

don't make you look like you're speaking with an open mind. Bash us on one board, then come here and explain that you are reasonable and levelheaded and have always weighed both sides of an issue before crying "foul."

Kevin

[beerguy]

http://www.hopdog.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/threadwontdie.jpg

[gregt]

Let's all just take a deep breathe before the next post....

please.

[Jus Reefin]

It's dead. For the record i didn't call anyone a name directly I only made a comment on how I was treated due to me giving feedback. I'm done and will never offer feedback to any more

The saying "THE TRUTH HURTS" has never been more true

[carribeanlovers]

http://www.smileys.ws/sm/action/00000031.gif
Cant we all just get along

[gregt]

Originally posted by guntruck
Why was mane3215 banned?

For violation of the UA.

[BrianD]

Never in my life have I been more frustrated and disillusioned by people. Here we have a simple, minor disagreement about a thread on an internet bulletin board, and it has escalated to people threatening all manners of violence, revenge, and lawsuits against moderators merely because they weren't allowed to continue to make comments on a discussion board. This is a private board. The rules established, for good or bad, are the rules everyone must follow. If the rules are too intrusive for your tastes, there are many other boards to choose from. There is no way that rules can be made that everyone will agree with. All we can do is try to provide the atmosphere that the majority of members feel comfortable in. The demise of RC was predicted by all manners of folks from the time it had 1,000 members to now as it approaches 50,000. I am sure people will continue to predict its demise, but we have to look at the growth of the board as a mandate that by and large most members are willing to accept the rules as they exist.

Please, there are worse problems in this world than being able to post pictures of zoo colonies. Let's step back and consider how you would feel if you were standing in front of a uninterested party and trying to explain to them why you are angry enough to threaten physical violence against a person you don't even know, just because they did what they thought was right.

Brian

[carribeanlovers]

Originally posted by BrianD
[B]it has escalated to people threatening all manners of violence, revenge, and lawsuits against moderators merely because they weren't allowed to continue to make comments on a discussion board.

First of all, their has been no violent threats made!! So don't be coming on a public thread saying so. The only damn way you would know about the lawsuit is one of two ways either you or someone else from RC is scoping out other forum sites and reporting things back which is really f$%^g childish or you guys are sharing eachother emails/PM's which is a severe privacy violation!

If the rules are too intrusive for your tastes, there are many other boards to choose from.

Yes there are other boards to go to but you guys here are tracking down where everyone is going to and causing s%#t here thinking that it won't cause trouble and when it does you cover your asses with the almighty agreement.

Please, there are worse problems in this world than being able to post pictures of zoo colonies.

This problem is not about posting pics of zoo colonies. Get your story straight before b*$^%@g about it. It was because someone put one post about their online store and other members/mods/admin had a stick up their a^s toward this person and the whole thing got blown out of porportion. Now it's not so much in regards to the thread not being there because a new one can always start. It's the idea of kicking people out because they have an opion that you don't agree with. It's also because you guys go and kick someone out and then instead of being professional about it you slam their name on a public thread for every member to see. This is very illegal and should be stopped.

The RC staff has grown a very large fat head because of it's size and it has caused them to think they are better then everyone else. Any moderator or staff admin that reads this can go ahead and kick me out too. I'm not afraid of you guys and I can get back on here even if you kick me out - that is how dumb administration is here:D

[gregt]

This is a privately owned site. It has rules if you wish to participate. Please abide by them. If you do not, you lose your privlidge to participate.

[zeppelin]

Greg

Got a question. Aren't you advertising your website in your avatar? Isn't that commercial advertising, and in violation of the UA?

Larry :cool:

[Bravodelta]

Touche' Pussycat.

[gregt]

Answers. No, no, and no.

Saltyzoo is not a commercial site. Go ahead and click on my www link. It's not a store.

[zeppelin]

Ya mean this one??
http://store.saltyzoo.com/

Sure looks like your avatar at the top.

Larry :cool:

[gregt]

My avatar nor my link advertise that store. Your post however is commercial in nature. Shall I delete it? ;)

[zeppelin]

My post is not commercial in nature, it's nature is to prove a point. I said in a post that was closed that it seems OK here for a Mod to do or say things that a member is "warned" about. I think this is a good example.

Larry :cool:

[gregt]

Huh? You've proved that I have a link to my private website with pictures of my reef on it. Just about everyone has that.

[zeppelin]

OK Greg, whatever you say. I'd sure like to hear other opinions though.

Larry :cool:

[hammerhead]

Originally posted by gregt
My avatar nor my link advertise that store. Your post however is commercial in nature. Shall I delete it? ;)


I did go to your link and was able to go to that store. Im just a bystander here but that statement was wrong.

[gregt]

I also have links to other stores....as do most people that have personal web sites. SaltyZoo.com has existed for many years longer than any store. So has the avatar. The point is that I do not post commercially. Additionally, I have cleared ALL of my images and links with the owner of the site who sets the policy and makes the decisions.

[hammerhead]

I agree that u dont post commercially "but" your avatar is advertising for them.

[rdvab]

I may be wrong here , but Millisec has sat back and stocked up on zoos , and shown them to all of us and was actually preparing a store. Then when he "accidently " posts that his store is open , he USES all the rest of you to further his worthless cause of free advertisement .
Ron

[rdvab]

I am not sure what age group of people we are dealing with here. I am 46 and am a Texan . So is it age , or being a Texan that tells me , You follow the rules , or you don`t play the game?
Ron

[gregt]

Ok, I don't agree, but I'll go along. Let's say it is advertising. If I were to charge the owner of the site my normal billing rate (instead of doing it voluntarily for the benefit of the members) for the technical work I do on RC, it would cost him over $15,000. Let's just say that JohnL allows me to continue to use an avatar that I made before the store existed for $15,000 a year. Pretty good deal for the members I think.

Just for the record, when I started the store I removed the avatar and JohnL told me to put it back as everyone recognizes me by it.

[hammerhead]

That Avatar is a part of his store so is the name salty zoo you are using both. Plain and simple it's advertising. I have never herd of salty zoo. I did a search and all that comes up is that store. Once that picture and name are associated with a store and u continue to use it knowing that all info regarding the name and pic leed one to this store is advertising. Thats my 2cents

[F4]

i think people should realize that all this fuss is being cooked up by people that couldn't follow the rules....http://www.robsreef.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

i think most of them are just mad because they can't sell here anymore otherwise why would they care

[rdvab]

Greg , I think this is the Question people on the group conspiracy board want to know ...If the person in question(millesec) had changed his Avatar to his store site , instead of posting it in the thread , would that have been within the rules?
Is that it?
Ron

[gregt]

That's a fair question. BTW, there are plenty of people that do have a commercial avatar. One I can think of off the top of my head annoys me to no end. :lol2:

The point I want to make though is that the problem is repeated violations after warnings of what is clearly not acceptable (IE: posting advertisements in threads) the rules were still broken.

We really do try not to be hardlined. We give people plenty of chances to "learn" the rules. Unfortunately, we also get blasted for that as "You let so and so do it". Well, yes, but they were warned, and it will NOT be allowed to continue. The alternative is instant banning, and we do not want to do that.

[rdvab]

fair reply.I think if all involved could communicate in this manner we would all be better off .
Ron

[Markk96]

Originally posted by F4
i think people should realize that all this fuss is being cooked up by people that couldn't follow the rules....http://www.robsreef.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

i think most of them are just mad because they can't sell here anymore otherwise why would they care

For a bunch of people who hate RC and have repeatedly said they want nothing to do with RC, they sure are trying hard to continue to have access here.

[Treeman]

Originally posted by rdvab
I may be wrong here , but Millisec has sat back and stocked up on zoos , and shown them to all of us and was actually preparing a store. Then when he "accidently " posts that his store is open , he USES all the rest of you to further his worthless cause of free advertisement .
Ron

Actually, You are wrong. He did not sit back and stock up on zoos. I am a wholesaler and have talked with Jim at length. He did not "decide" to open a store until a few weeks ago. At least that I know of. You are just grasping at straws. So give it up.

And Ron, I see that now you have started questioning peoples level of maturity. I am 42 so you can't go there and have owned my own business for 25 years. I think that you better watch it because I may be wrong, but I think there is quite a few younger people here that probably would be offended by your remark. Maybe that shows you true "age".

Gregt,
With all do respect I also think that is advertising. Maybe not in the way that other people have done, but still an add. I think it is advertising when people like "arcab4" have their commercial address plaster all over every post that they make!
Like this:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2334859#post2334859post2334859

F4,
I have never sold anything here and I care. So I don't see your point.

Nuff said!:rolleyes:

[gregt]

Gregt,
With all do respect I also think that is advertising. Maybe not in the way that other people have done, but still an add. I think it is advertising when people like "arcab4" have their commercial address plaster all over every post that they make!

With all due respect I wish you wouldn't ignore all the rest of my posts regarding the subject.

[Treeman]

Well here it goes! Like I said before I type as slow as mollasses. Most were not there when I started it!!!!!!!It was posted that he wanted other opinons. So I shared mine. Excuse me.

[rdvab]

Treeman , the reason I was questioning maturity , when you visit the other board and people are saying ....I went over there and posted so and so , and i told them so and so ...Get my point . If not so what .
Ron

[Treeman]

OH, I get your point but, if you don't care about them why are you visiting the other board? Sounds childish to me.

And truthfully I don't want to argue with anybody so if I don't post to this thread anymore it is because I just want to let it go.

Keep Reefin.:D

[rdvab]

Point well taken .I will stay with the board I prefer.
Ron

[griss]

Originally posted by rdvab
Point well taken .I will stay with the board I prefer.
Ron
At this point, I think that is sound advice for everyone involved.

George

[CaptainMac]

Wow,
And we thought sammystingray's drunk posts were exciting;). You guys know how to throw a party. This big city life is too stressful for me. I'm headed back to the country:bum:

[dc]

:lol: Hey Mac, can we get a zoo forum? Or maybe how to have success with 3 tangs in a 10 gallon tank!

[Anemone]

Originally posted by CaptainMac
Wow,
And we thought sammystingray's drunk posts were exciting;). You guys know how to throw a party. This big city life is too stressful for me. I'm headed back to the country:bum:

Thanks Mac, but I'd prefer to be reading about this on your board :lol:

Kevin

[CaptainMac]

LOL Kevin, I don't know if he's on the wagon or not but we haven't seen his late night posts lately. I miss you Sammy;)
Or maybe how to have success with 3 tangs in a 10 gallon tank!
LOL, we already have that, the B&BS Forum:D .

Now I have ban envy, I better go see if I can troll up a troll to ban:hammer: .

[Mal3]

I have taken the time to read all of this because I was starting to visit the zoo thread often. Well, This is probably a mistake, but I am going to give my opinion. My opinion is meant to be positive, I am not complaining.

RC staff, I can agree with setting rules. Rules are made to be followed. However, it is a black and white issue. If the rules are to be followed, then that means everyone and you too. If users are breaking the rules then they should be told.

My opinion of all of this is that some of staff is bending the rules for some and using them against others. Other Mods are doing a good job. I think you need to be fair. As an example that means, don't let Mods advertise on logos or in any way and come down on others for the same thing. You said no advertising for anyone in that way, right? It should not matter if you do work for RC. Then buy a true add, but don't have double standards.

Anyone that has their commercial name or logo in their posting picture is advertising. Lets not BS anyone. You can check that I am a CPA. I know what advertising is.

I had a first hand experience with what I consider unfair and heavy handed treatment. I had a mod jump all over me for telling other clubs that our club was having a frag swap. I was told that that was commercial advertising. I had no clue, nor did I agree. When I asked for the mod to show me the rules he quoted, he I was told that everything can't be in the rules and they need to be interpreted.

Well, we cannot all follow what is not written down. So I suggest that you post your policy of how you will deal with violations. Doing thing like booting people and closing the thread may be warranted, but do it by rules you set so you do not have this again.

It was not that I was told, it was the way it was done. I suggest that you post a procedure for handling these type things. Post the violations and keep public track of them. In my case it was because I did not know better.

It is fine to enforce the rules on your board. But if you want not to upset people, then do it according to posted known rules, in a fair and proper manner. Have a disciplinary action board and have the matters reviewed first. Post the violations and decisions. Just suggestions.

However, if you want to just say, its is my board and I will do what ever I want, then expect this type of reaction by your users, and expect to loose them over it.

Just my opinion.

[Mal3]

I saw that Mane3215 was banned. The reason was for "violations"

I just was informed that nixnutz was banned today also.

I would like to know why these two were banned. I would appreciate knowing the specific reason why this action was taken?

[DJ88©]

I will have to get back to you on the first post.

As for the request to know about a members status with the board and or reasons for removal. That is between the member/ex-member and the staff.

Sorry.

[DgenR8]

Hi Mal,
I'll take a shot at your first post.

What you were told is that it's impossible to include everything that can be done wrong within the confines of the user agreement. It's unfortunate, but once we believe that we have absolutely covered all the bases, someone will post in a commercial manner, when he gets called on it, he'll say "But the user agreement just said I can't make commercial posts, it didn't say I can't post commercially while wearing purple polka dot shorts, and lime green neon socks!"
I know, it's a bit extreme, but with the volume of members we have to deal with, and the number of them that are trying to make a go at a small time business, with free advertising to a HUGE audience, we do encounter this type of thing on a very regular basis. Some things just have to be left up to the interpretation of the staff here, there's no getting around that.


I take exception to your implications here:

Originally posted by Mal3


My opinion of all of this is that some of staff is bending the rules for some and using them against others. Other Mods are doing a good job. I think you need to be fair. As an example that means, don't let Mods advertise on logos or in any way and come down on others for the same thing. You said no advertising for anyone in that way, right? It should not matter if you do work for RC. Then buy a true add, but don't have double standards.



Let me once again remind you that Reef Central is a privately owned board, run completely by volunteers. Should the OWNER of this board choose to compensate any member of the staff here that works for free with any little perk, you're just going to have to accept that. The time and energy put in by certain members of the staff of this site is mind boggling, and Greg's avatar is nothing by comparison to his efforts to maintain Reef Central as the largest, fastest, and down right best damn BB on the Internet.

Now, since you choose to drag this back up, what you did was spam several forums with information about an event your club was having. Did I accept your explanation and apology? Yes, I did even AFTER you posted several PRIVATE MESSAGES between us in public. I will ask you again (since you want to bring it back up) What part of PRIVATE MESSAGE did you have trouble comprehending?

[hammerhead]

Originally posted by gregt
My avatar nor my link advertise that store. Your post however is commercial in nature. Shall I delete it? ;)


This statment was the only resone why I posted. This statement was false and it effects his credibility(sp). I was very shocked when he posted that statment. If he would have said that the "OWNER" gives perks to the admins and mods for running the site voluntarily I would not have even posted.

[Mal3]

Hi Larry, I want to respond, but not argue.

RE:
_______________________________________________________________
Let me once again remind you that Reef Central is a privately owned board, run completely by volunteers. Should the OWNER of this board choose to compensate any member of the staff here that works for free with any little perk, you're just going to have to accept that. The time and energy put in by certain members of the staff of this site is mind boggling, and Greg's avatar is nothing by comparison to his efforts to maintain Reef Central as the largest, fastest, and down right best damn BB on the Internet.
_______________________________________________________________


I understand that this is your board. The issue is not that Greg puts in a great effort. I believe he does. If your owner wants to let him post his logo, that is fine too. But the point is, that is a double standard. As an example, do not say there is a "don't advertise" rule and have Mods enforce it while they advertise. The issue is not that he works there or not. There is a double standard and it is causing a problem. Don't you see that.

You can't tell people not to do something and allow Mods to do the opposite. It is worse to have those Mods slap the hands of others for what they are doing. You do not have to respond. Just consider my point and think about it. I think you should fix it for the future.



RE this:
_______________________________________________________________
Now, since you choose to drag this back up, what you did was spam several forums with information about an event your club was having. Did I accept your explanation and apology? Yes, I did even AFTER you posted several PRIVATE MESSAGES between us in public. I will ask you again (since you want to bring it back up) What part of PRIVATE MESSAGE did you have trouble comprehending?
______________________________________________________________



Quite frankly, I do not remember who responded. What I was referring to was the initial response of the Mod that put the spam can on my post and his initial response to me about my post. I am suggesting a better approach would have been to say, Mr., Mal3, you broke this rule. We are going to remove your posts!

I was not referring to the private messages. However, since you brought it up, I do not remember being shown where what I did qualifies as spam in your rules. It was an interpretation.

As far as you PM, I posted your messages so everyone would know what you consider wrong. I certainly did not know or understand it and no one else did either. Your agreement does not really say what I did was wrong. But since you say so, I will abide by it. I am only saying you expect too much if we must read you mind. What is the problem with being clearer about the rules! As these things happen, add them to the rules. It is not really hard. Just be clear!

Again, my point is, we can't follow a rule that is in someone's head or an interpretation. I think it is the wide interpretations that get people upset. Sometimes judgment could be better.

Again, this is meant to be constructive criticism for improvement to help you reduce future protests. We have different points of view. It is important that we both understand each other view.

I am pretty new to this whole BB thing. I am just telling you what I see as a new member. Of course, you will do what you will. I only hope this will help.

Thank you for the opportunity to share my view.

[gregt]

Oh nevermind.

You're wrong. Anyone without an agenda can see that. I will not respond to these ridiculous attacks any further.

[Mal3]

Hi Greg,

I referred to your case only to make a point. You are not the only one. I did not mean to single you out to come down on you.

I only offer the opinion to share my view, in hope that things may change. As you can see from some of the other posts here, other look at it the same way I do. I do not have any other "agenda".

I have said my piece, and I do not want to argue. Just please consider my points. That is all I ask.

[gregt]

Your points have always been considered. The mods have addressed them i this thread.

We try to be as fair as possible, and we try to be as patient as possible.

More times than not it is the "patient" aspect that causes us trouble. If we were hardlined and immediately removed or banned anyone that broke the rules, then there would be no gray area. However, we prefer to moderate somewhere in between that and "no rules" at all.

Posts like yours DO effect the way we react to future situations. The staff does spend a lot of time discussing these topics and determining the best course of action in general and for specific situations.

On one hand we are accused of censorship. On the other hand every post would become an advertisement. We do our best to find that middle ground.

I repeat. We do listen to what people say and it does effect our decision process. However, we have a lot more information about most situations than the typical member and therefore are unlikely to change our minds about a specific situation. We are open to opinions, but without all the facts a typical member cannot see the whole picture.

Just trying to show our side of it as well....

[CaptainMac]

LOL,
Hey Greg, I'll bring the cheese as it looks like you already have the whine, and plenty of it:mixed:.
Cap

[koikeeper]

You can check that I am a CPA. I know what advertising is.

:lmao: Where is there advertising on the cpa exam? What test did you take? The 15 hour exam I took had a lot of very difficult questions, not a single one of which had anything to do with marketing or advertising. That is a totally different degree area.

Don't snow people into thinking your degree area or accredidation has anything to do with advertising. Did you pass the ethical part of that exam by the way?

Koi

[Mal3]

Koi,

I was being brief in my statement. I did not snow or mislead anyone, but I did not elaborate. You can’t be a CPA without passing the entire exam. Advertising was part of my college business courses to obtain a degree to qualify for the CPA exam.

I think my 27 years practicing as a CPA and my business experience with clients and my own businesses qualify me to know something about advertising. However, since you do not know that about me, I simply made a brief statement.

By the way, did you pass the CPA exam?

[koikeeper]

You can’t be a CPA without passing the entire exam. Advertising was part of my college business courses to obtain a degree to qualify for the CPA exam.

Most business majors have a course in marketing or advertising; but using the CPA for the basis of your argument was kind of off to say the least. You should have just mentioned you completed some college coursework in advertising. I am not even questioning your ability to spot advertising (frankly don't care), just your judgement in using the CPA exam as a basis for knowing advertising.

By the way, did you pass the CPA exam?

I'm not going to bother to take your bait. My personal life is not up for discussion at RC. I'll tell you anything you'd like to know about my fish.

Koi

edit: you know I guess I could always post a scan of my scores, but what the heck does that have to do with you using the CPA as a basis for advertising knowledge? Is it supposed to be some kind of personal attack? :confused:

[GarSrtn]

Ok, I have to chime in on this one. (Please note, this is not intended as a personal attack on anyone. I'm just using the most handy example.)

Is a logo advertising? -- Posting a logo is advertising. Anyone who doesn't believe this should read a little about Coke's initial strategy: they put their name on everything. It was the best thing they ever did; it got them market share. There's a reason virtually every advertisement contains the company's logo, servicemark, trademark, etc. It's an ad; people associate a logo with a company. I may not be a CPA (no offense Mal3), but I've designed enough ads to know what one looks like.

(Sidenote: I followed the www link. The site looked like a store site to me. Sure the front page was personal, but the top two buttons were integrated into the site. Those buttons were for commercial services. It could easily be construed that the front page was one big ad for the services available via the other buttons.)

There was an argument that allowing the logo could be considered compensation for services rendered. If that's the case, can others claim the same right? Being a community, this board consists of several persons' additions. RC would not be what it is without the advice given by the users. It's taken them time to generate that advice. Are they then to be compensated by being allowed to post logos or other advertisements?

I agree with Mal3's position that the rules should apply equally to all. Rules do need to be interpreted. Sometimes it is difficult to interpret them. Still it is simply not honorable to cite a rules violation vs another individual when oneself is in violation of the rule cited. Interpretation is good, provided it is done with common sense. Interpretation used to justify ones actions while condeming anothers is hypocritical.

I can speak with firsthand experience that volunteering is a thankless job. I do appreciate the time and effort the adm and mods put into this board. RC has helped me make my tank what it is. For that alone, I deeply thank RC staff, owners, et. al.

[DensityMan]

I think one of the points that have now been beaten to death (either directly or through inferrence) is that while the image is an "Ad" in the purest sense of the argument, it also doesn't matter 'cause he wasn't "advertising."

My name is an "ad." It gives me unique recognition. It is to the top left of all of my posts. It is associated with me. It is there in the same way that a product is placed into a movie or signs at a 'ball game. It is not, however, a commercial interupting the program and breaking continuity.

Two points of interest.

The image in discussion belongs to someone who 'works' here (for free). As part of his 'salary' (which I assume is close to, if not, zero) he may post with an image that is his.

All of us have the opportunity to supply a personal 'web-address' in our profile. Many, many people add this address into their signature areas as well. Very few are as subtle as the one still being called into question.

The second point relates back to the first couple of paragraphs: The links and graphics are not "Buy one get one free at Coral-World" ads. They are a personal avatar and a personal site where frags are sold. The only reason I know this at all is because this thread got under my skin enough that I felt compelled to look. Maybe a great many people feel compelled to click on every link they see... /shrug

To recap:

Logo/personal-avatar w/ discreet linking NOT the same as "Come visit my new store... buy one shark get five free!"

I like the vast majority of the people now gone from RC because of this manufactured drama, but I also like an ordered universe and the Mods who try to make the boards conform to order (even though we all know that any message board is fabricated from pure chaos...)

Enjoy all.

Take a deep breath and let this die (or don't... I may have a chance to come back and make more subtle points then) ;)

Additionally

[dc]

Wow, can you say:

http://images3.fotki.com/v34/photos/2/28482/376550/BEATINGADEADHORSE-vi.gif


Thank goodness Greg and the other Mods know how much most of the people appreciate them. I can't imagine putting up with all this!

[Fizz71]

Originally posted by GarSrtn
Ok, I have to chime in on this one. (Please note, this is not intended as a personal attack on anyone. I'm just using the most handy example.)

I think that this line is part of the problem we have here. Everybody is so darn afraid of being banned to speak their mind. I just read this whole thread and took notice at how many have "moved on".

I think maybe RC in general needs to start considering a policy of "temporary bans" if they haven't already. The simple act of banning has a much bigger affect on the reefing community than just one person "moving on".

Deap breathe..here we go...

Millisec was banned for his post..now I'm not sure what Nixnutz said to tick off the mod that banned him so I won't discuss its justification, but now he's gone too. Nixnutz is responsible for hosting the NCPARS frag meeting next week..our numbers have exceeded 70 attendees most of whom have RC to thank for finding out about it. And me personally, I knew NOTHING of fragging before finding these people on RC.

But now..our host is gone which strands 70+ people...we will now need to go to another site to discuss this event and lose our visibility on RC which in turn will cause our numbers to decrease...or atleast no longer increase.

We were discussing getting business cards printed with NCPARS and the RC web address so that we could help out somebody at an LFS who we felt could use the assistance of the "community"; of course this will no longer happen. NCPARS will now need to get together someplace else and it will greatly hurt our visibility and future. I have personally sent many people to RC and its sponsors in attempt to further educate people on the reefing industry. Knowledge is power..and by more people learning about fragging and what species to avoid we are in turn helping avoid the destruction of the reefs.

After all this..I don't know WHAT will happen...do I still send people to RC? How can I if I myself need to go elsewhere to stay with my local reefers.

I know it's a stretch..but the simple banning of one user is actually HURTING the hobby far more than millisec's post of his new site is HELPING him.

Is there any way of redemtion for these people? Do I really have to leave RC because quite frankly I don't feel like having to deal with 2,3 or 4 boards? Why can't we just agree to disagree, punish those who violate the agreement with a punishment that fits the crime. If you use an analogy to the criminal justice system, RC's currently policy seems to be 1 or two verbal warnings and then an execution. What happened to jail time?

....and 2 last notes.

We are ALL VOLUNTEERS HERE! The mods are not the only ones putting in a effort to help the community. Yes I know moding a site is alot of work...I work on 2 sites, one for NCPARS and one for my martial arts studio..both for free. Not to mention I volunteer an additional 20 hours a week to the school to teach. I also volunteered as an EMT for 3 years. Volunteering is thankless..get over it..don't complain about the few who "don't get it" just appreciate the thousands that DO! That's the only reason I do it/did it.

And lastly...isn't everytime somebody uses the initials "HD" advertising? Just a thought. :)

--Fizz

[gregt]

Originally posted by Fizz71
I think that this line is part of the problem we have here. Everybody is so darn afraid of being banned to speak their mind. I just read this whole thread and took notice at how many have "moved on".
If you really read this thread closely you will see that there is absolutely no correlation to speaking your mind and "moving on".

I think maybe RC in general needs to start considering a policy of "temporary bans" if they haven't already. The simple act of banning has a much bigger affect on the reefing community than just one person "moving on".
We do this when appropriate.

Millisec was banned for his post..
Absolutely wrong. Millisec was banned for MONTHS of violating the UA and being warned over and over.

Nixnutz is responsible for hosting the NCPARS frag meeting next week..our numbers have exceeded 70 attendees most of whom have RC to thank for finding out about it. And me personally, I knew NOTHING of fragging before finding these people on RC.
It's too bad he couldn't follow the simple rules, eh? All of us lose when a member refuses to work with us instead of against us.

I know it's a stretch..but the simple banning of one user is actually HURTING the hobby far more than millisec's post of his new site is HELPING him.
Yeah, I agree. It is a stretch. Do the ends justify the means? The rules are simple. It is rare that someone that shows any sort of respect for the mods here is banned even temporarily.

Is there any way of redemtion for these people? Do I really have to leave RC because quite frankly I don't feel like having to deal with 2,3 or 4 boards?
Start treating the moderators with respect and stop violating the rules.

Volunteering is thankless..get over it..don't complain about the few who "don't get it" just appreciate the thousands that DO! That's the only reason I do it/did it.
Sorry, but I will not continue to volunteer for people that treat the volunteers with no respect. Thankless? Yes. Disrespect? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!

[Anemone]

DensityMan,

Thank you! You "get" the distinction we (the mods and admins) try to make almost daily.

There are a lot of avatars that are logos for commercial sites. There are people who have nicks that are commercial URLs. People have commercial URLs linked to their "www" button. People have commercial URLs in their signature (where links are not active). Guess what? That's not what we're concerned about. We're concerned about people who are actively selling/advertising in their posts or signatures, or folks who have an economic incentive to do the same for someone else.

FWIW,
Kevin

[BrianD]

Well, if you can't find a CPA to help you with an advertising controversy, you can always find someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

[beerguy]

No fair using my line Brian....

:)

[BrianD]

But I LIKED it.

[Q-ball]

Those CPA's, can't come up with their own lines and gotta steal someone else's:lol:

[griss]

Originally posted by Q-ball
Those CPA's, can't come up with their own lines and gotta steal someone else's:lol:
Especially during tax season:D

[Fizz71]

Originally posted by gregt
It's too bad he couldn't follow the simple rules, eh? All of us lose when a member refuses to work with us instead of against us.

But I've spoken to nixnutz since he was banned. He's not even sure WHY he got banned..he said that he was even trying to go out of his way to avoid any problems last week to show you he was behaving...I don't get it...and neither did he..and now he's lost all respect for this site. It's a shame.

Start treating the moderators with respect and stop violating the rules.
I had the utmost respect for the mods in here, but it's getting lost in this mess. I'm not sure WHO to believe; I just know how it's affecting me. The biggest problem with the web is that it takes the personality out everything and yet people always take comments as personally as they possible can and get anrgy with their replies when no disrespect or "threat" was ever meant..it was just an emotional response to somebody who felt they were wronged.

We're just letters to you; you're just letters to us. I know Rahn (nixnutz)..he's a stand-up guy that goes out of his way for people. And one last thing on that comment..how can Rahn treat you with respect when he's banned for good..all that does is tick him off more and take away from this site. He felt blindsided by this whole thing and is certain that it's from actions from a month ago and that you folks were just looking for a reason to ban him..even when he was trying to behave now. I know I know..I'll never know the whole story..but if you saw my side...which is the side that alot of others are seeing...you'd know there's a problem with the methods of this site.

Sorry, but I will not continue to volunteer for people that treat the volunteers with no respect.
But I think alot of folks are misinterperetting "no respect" with somebody who is just upset. Respect is earned..and so is dis-respect. I just get the impression...and it's an impression that is currently common among my community..that RC's handling of situations are heavy handed and in some cases, insulting. Like I said before..you have warnings, and executions..no middle ground, no friendly dialoge, no chance for reconcilliation. "We're just going to pull the plug and make it go away"..and then the rest of us have to deal with the loss. And even the warnings..like in Mals situation..were a little harsh. That whole mess started because of how it was handled..he was insulted..and had no clue he was doing anything that RC considered wrong. And quite franlky...I agree. His message was not SPAM..SPAM is blind marketing tactics...if sombody from a NJ, NY or PA club was having an event that was open to all..I'd be appreciative of the post in my forum...now posting every 20 minutes about how they can make my p*nis larger would tick me off..but that's a different story! :)

It's sad that things have come to this, but RC has made it impossible to resolve unless you are willing to open a dialoge with the people that are gone..and even then..they may be beyond listening now. You feel they've wronged..they feel you've wronged them.

It's a shame that you will never get to know Rahn like I know him, and see that he is only in this for the same reason as you..The love of this hobby.

--Fizz

[gregt]

Rahn knows quite well why he was banned and he has been told. Unfortunately we got to know him better than you do because of this situation. I hope that you don't have the misfortune of being manipulated and decieved by him as we did. The situation very likely was a simple mistake on Rahn's part. However, lying about it and pretending it didn't happen is not the way to deal with the situation and is not going to change the reality of what actually happened.

[Boatwizard]

Does "beating a dead horse" register with anyone?

Get out of it and move on. A mod's job ain't exactly a hoot and it's not a power trip either.

If you want to play on the board, there are rules, use them and things will be much smoother.

[MarkS]

Originally posted by Boatwizard
Does "beating a dead horse" register with anyone?


Sure it does! Duh! It's everyone's favorite pasttime on this board. Where have you been?

[MarkS]

Originally posted by gregt
Sorry, but I will not continue to volunteer for people that treat the volunteers with no respect. Thankless? Yes. Disrespect? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!

Well said! However, only one phrase comes to mind: "Welcome to management!". It's not the volunteer part that makes people treat you and the mods with such little respect. It's your "higher" position. Been there. Done that. Trust me, you'll never get used to it and it will never end so long as you are in a leadership position.

In a job, the disrespect is pretty much "shown" behind your back. You've got it much more difficult. Their families are not going to go hungry and their house will not be foreclosed on if you "fire" them for that disrespect. This give them a false sense of security and more reason to treat you as such publicly.

All you can do is continue to do what you are doing.

BTW, Greg, from a former manager... Great job! :thumbsup:

[Unseentric]

"In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy."
G. Orwell

[MarkS]

Originally posted by Unseentric
"In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy."
G. Orwell

Nice quote. What's it got to do with this discussion? :confused:

[JohnL]

Originally posted by Boatwizard
Does "beating a dead horse" register with anyone?

It sure does :D Everyone back to their reef tanks ;)

[Fizz71]

Originally posted by JohnL
It sure does :D Everyone back to their reef tanks ;)

Spoken like somebody who isn't affected by the situation once it's "dead"...other than (hopefully) a policy change or two. And NO....that's not a personal shot at you or anybody...I just picked your post to quote because it was the closest. :) I'm just saying that there are some of us who get the shaft on this one if it's not resolved and just forgotten about instead.

It may be a dead horse to you, but it's a going concern for my group's future. But I'll stop posting about it here since it will have no affect on the outcome.

Just remember what I said before..we're ALL here for the same reason...I know you folks know that already..but I think we need to be reminded of it once in a while. (myself included)

--Fizz

[gregt]

I'm just saying that there are some of us who get the shaft on this one if it's not resolved and just forgotten about instead.
There's nothing that we can do to "resolve" the problem. The ball is in the court of the people that violated the rules. They will NOT be allowed back simply by claiming they "didn't do it." We know what happened. Pretending like it didn't happen isn't going to change our minds. There's too many of us that saw it with our own two little beady eyes.