Installing DSB Next week.

[DaveJ]

Dr Ron,

With the recent cyno and nitrate problem I had, I am going to install a DSB in my 125 next week while I am on vacation. I have a couple of questions for you but let me give you an idea of what I have right now. I have about 120 lbs or so of LR and a 1 1/2 to 2" sand bed right now. This was LS, but no critters in it, other than bacteria from what I can tell.

After reading many posts here and your article, I am curious to know what would be a good mix of sand for this tank. The existing sand is argonite (sp) from what I remember. Should I just add more of that or should I go with a variety? After I pull the rock's out and my corals, keeping them in rubbermaid tanks, should I leave the fish and shrimp, crabs in or make an attempt to remove them too? The fish I have currently are a 4 firefish, 4 green chromis, a purple tang, a hippo tang, a lawnmower blennie, a mandarin and a watchman goby. My shrimp consist of 2 cleaners, a coral banded, 2 peppermint, 2 camel back and a fire shrimp. I have a handful of scarlet and blue legs. I also have a bunch of tiger trochus and nassarius. I have a sand sifter as well.

You had recommended pulling the sand sifter and watchman goby out to insure DSB livestock. The sand sifter will probably go back to the store, should I pull the goby out as well? How much damage will he do in a tank my size? I can house him my 12 gallon eclipse, but don't want to get rid of him totally.

When I put the new sand in, will I need to mix it with the new sand or just lay it on top? Will the nassarius in my bed now, be able to burrow there way out okay? Are there any recommendations on Rock layout. Meaning should I leave big open spots in front? In back?

I am seeding it with a Indo Pacific detrivore kit and will order one from Inland in a few weeks, so my mix of species should be okay.

Your comments and suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Dave

[rshimek]

Originally posted by DaveJ

Hi Dave,

After reading many posts here and your article, I am curious to know what would be a good mix of sand for this tank. The existing sand is argonite (sp) from what I remember. Should I just add more of that or should I go with a variety?

No biggie either way, as long as the particle size distribution is appropriate

After I pull the rock's out and my corals, keeping them in rubbermaid tanks, should I leave the fish and shrimp, crabs in or make an attempt to remove them too?

Remove them, it will stress them a lot less to go through the storm in a bucket or auxillary tank.

You had recommended pulling the sand sifter and watchman goby out to insure DSB livestock. The sand sifter will probably go back to the store, should I pull the goby out as well?

That is my suggestion.

How much damage will he do in a tank my size?

It can kill the sand bed.

When I put the new sand in, will I need to mix it with the new sand or just lay it on top?

Lay it on top.

Will the nassarius in my bed now, be able to burrow there way out okay?

Yup.

Are there any recommendations on Rock layout. Meaning should I leave big open spots in front? In back?

Well, this is really up to you, and your sense of aesthetics. The sand bed will work better if there are some good areas of open sediment space, but it isn't a major problem if there aren't. Be careful not to pile rocks on your Nassarius, while they can get out from under a lot of sand, if they are under rocks, they may not make it.

Good luck! :D

[DaveJ]

Thanks for the feedback. One followup question. In another thread about shrimp, you said that the coral banded could damage a DSB. In a tank my size, would you recommend removing my coral banded or keeping him isolated in my smaller tank for awhile to let the DSB population settle? If the latter, how long?

[rshimek]

Originally posted by DaveJ

Hi Dave,

In a tank my size, would you recommend removing my coral banded

Yes. I wouldn't keep one at all.
:D

[DaveJ]

A followup here...

I went sand shopping today at various places and found some white, almost bright white, silica sand at a Meijers here in Cincinnati. It even had the silicosis (sp) warning label on it. It is very fine. Will this be suitable for adding on top of my argonite??

I have read a lot of the posts on here and am a bit confused. Some say silica is bad, some say its good, some say it doesn't matter. Can you help clear that up??

One of the other posts said he was going to try to add some lime powder to add more variety of size to the bed. Can you explain a bit more what he meant by that? You seemed a bit enthused by his suggestion so I thought I could find some of that locally and give it a try. I just don't know exactly what to look or ask for.


Thanks again for your help!!


PS... I have a contact in Florida, near Tampa - St Pete... that can ship me some sand from the gulf or the bay. Isn't family great?? Question I have is if this would be beneficial or have no effect in increasing the mix of infauna? What collection method would you recommend?? How about shipping?? Here is what I thought would be good... have them go to a tidal pool and such, off some rock or reef section that they could access in the shallows. Dip about 10 lbs or so from the sand closest to the rocks/reef and then do another 10 lbs or so from more open water. Put it into a rubbermaid container and ship that to me 2nd day.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by DaveJ

Hi,

Will this be suitable for adding on top of my argonite??

Sure.

I have read a lot of the posts on here and am a bit confused. Some say silica is bad, some say its good, some say it doesn't matter. Can you help clear that up??

There is a myth floating around that silica sand would dissolve in sea water enough to accelerate the growth of evil diatoms...

Simply bogus... :D


One of the other posts said he was going to try to add some lime powder to add more variety of size to the bed. Can you explain a bit more what he meant by that? You seemed a bit enthused by his suggestion so I thought I could find some of that locally and give it a try. I just don't know exactly what to look or ask for.

The idea was to get some really fine particles in the sand bed as that would result in increased surface area for the bacteria that form the biological filter. Also this fine material may facilitate growth some of the small reef animals. So.. I was enthused about some one trying this.

Question I have is if this would be beneficial or have no effect in increasing the mix of infauna?

Probably beneficial.

What collection method would you recommend??

Go to an area where they can find some clean (as in not polluted) muddy sand from below the tide line. Collect the upper 4-5 cm (2 inch).

How about shipping??

Put the sand in a plastic bag and pour off all the water that they can get off it. Wrap the bag tight and seal it with some tape, etc.
Put another bag around this. Ship it...

Good luck :D

[FishDaddy]

Dr. Ron,
Now, I am confused! :confused:
Dave asked about adding lime powder to the substrate and you indicated this might be a good idea. Wouldn't lime powder in any significant quantity boost pH to abnormal levels? Wouldn't it bind to the other sand particles to make a sort of Reef-Quik-Crete?

[quote]One of the other posts said he was going to try to add some [b] lime powder[b] to add more variety of size to the bed. Can you explain a bit more what he meant by that? You seemed a bit enthused by his suggestion so I thought I could find some of that locally and give it a try. I just don't know exactly what to look or ask for.

The idea was to get some really fine particles in the sand bed as that would result in increased surface area for the bacteria that form the biological filter. Also this fine material may facilitate growth some of the small reef animals. So.. I was enthused about some one trying this. [quote]

Thanks,
Dick:)

[moviegeek]

Fishdaddy,

Just thought I'd jump in with some comments since I recently moved and re-did sandbeds in two of my four tanks (the other two tanks will be done next week as well).

I used pulverized white rock (silica sand) sold as "white line marking sand/chalk" This stuff has turned out great so far. It is powder, like baking soda powder size. I used about a 50/50 mix of the white line marking sand and #1 grade aragonite. Then I put about half an inch of live sand from my existing tanks on top of the mix. (The live sand is mostly #1 grade aragonite mixed with sugar size aragonite).

Three weeks later I am very happy. The white line marking sand cost less than $4 for 50 pounds, and is much smaller in grain size than the sugar size aragonite at the LFS that costs $1 per pound.

Adam

[moviegeek]

I thought I should add that the white line marking sand is indeed white. It blends in very nicely with the aragonite. I bought a few other types of silica sand that were all a beige to light grey color when dry that turned an ugly muddy brown when wet.

[mengerin]

Moviegeek,

What's your flow like? I keep seeing all of these folks using "baking powder" type substances, and I can't but wonder how you keep this substrate on the substrate. With a very small aragonite, I'm still having my pumps blow it all over the place if I don't position the flow just so.

So, what's the secrets here.

Others?

Cheers,
Matthew

[moviegeek]

I put a 1/2" layer of #1 aragonite on top of the 50/50 mix. That keeps the sandstorm from happening. But you're right, otherwise it would be a mess.

I'm hoping that in 6-12 months there will be enough spaghetti worms and other critters holding the surface together that the sand won't blow around even once the top layer gets mixed in.

[rshimek]

Hi Guys,

First off for a tank - you DO need to check the chemical composition of the "lime" products. Calcium oxide is NOT acceptable, calcium carbonate is.

Silica is fine.

Once the stuff is in the water, and a bacterial film has developed - generally a couple of days or less, even very fine sediment doesn't blow around unless you direct a power head directly at it.

:D

[FishDaddy]

Thanks for the clarification, Ron.
The term "Lime" was used early in the thread and I just wanted to make sure that everyone was talking about the same thing: inert Calcium Carbonate, instead of Quicklime: Calcium Oxide or Calcium Hydroxide.
Dick:)

[rshimek]

Hi Dick

[thanks] for asking for the clarification. This is a very important factor, and "lime" is an ambiguous term; we do need to be precise with these meanings.

:D

[DaveJ]

Hi Doc,

As you can tell from the date of the original post, things got setback as far as schedules go. Reason was due to HD not shipping like they said they would. They do have it in though and I will be picking it up friday.

Will adding another 3 or 4 inches of sand cause a new cycle or is the clouding the only thing I need to worry about? I am only going to be home over the weekend so if it's going to cycle I will wait until I am home for a week or so straight. Having a tank and traveling is a pain :) But it pays the bills..

If I keep my animals in holding tanks while I put the sand in and let it settle for a few hours or so, will they be okay once I put them back in? I am a little unsure of what to expect as far as clouding goes. If I put the sand in carefully, maybe wetting it down first then putting it in gently can I expect to have a clear tank in a few hours, or will it take days to settle before I can put the rock and animals back in?

Thanks for the help on this.... I appreciate it.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by DaveJ

Hi Dave,

Will adding another 3 or 4 inches of sand cause a new cycle or is the clouding the only thing I need to worry about?

If you add it all at once, you will definitely get another cycling event. Add it 1/2 " at a time, with a couple of days in between and you will be fine. This saves your present sand fauna as well.

If I keep my animals in holding tanks while I put the sand in and let it settle for a few hours or so, will they be okay once I put them back in?

Sure.

I am a little unsure of what to expect as far as clouding goes. If I put the sand in carefully, maybe wetting it down first then putting it in gently can I expect to have a clear tank in a few hours, or will it take days to settle before I can put the rock and animals back in?

This varies a lot with folks. You will get some cloudiness in the tank. Generally this clears up fine within a day. This does not harm the animals at all, except that it may obscure them.

Good luck!

:cool:

[DaveJ]

Dr Ron,

Thanks for the clarification. Curious to know if that will be a major cycle event or a small scale one? Basically, will it be big enough to impact fish, inverts or corals other than the infauna?

[rshimek]

Originally posted by DaveJ

Hi Dave,

Curious to know if that will be a major cycle event or a small scale one?

I really can't tell you from this distance... too many variables.

Basically, will it be big enough to impact fish, inverts or corals other than the infauna?

Possibly. Plan for the worst, but be thankful for anything that is not bad.

:D

[DaveJ]

Hey Doc,

Just wanted to give you an update on how this turned out. After a fiasco with US Air Cargo getting my addtional LR in town, I started to take the tank apart. I purchased a 30 gallon to hold the new rock and fish/critters in while I put the new SD sand down. I got them moved and the sand laid down like you had told me to and leveled out as best I could. It clouded up really fast and was like milk.

Anyway.. I got the thing in, it's settling out and I can see worms and stuff moving up from the existing argonite, up into the SD. The Nassarious were able to dig themselves out as well. Matter of fact, I purchased more of them from SeaCritters today, along with two cukes. Nice people there, let me tell you.

On the downside though, my purple tang, clam, hippo tang, coral banded and 1 cleaner shrimp didn't make it. I put a Rio 400 in the 30 gallon for circulation and such, but the O2 levels must of dropped overnight because a lot of them were either dead or breathing hard when I woke up. I was able to save the rest though.

[rshimek]

Hi Dave,

Sorry to hear about the losses, that is a real shame.

Glad to hear the bed is going in okay.

And yes, the "Sea Critters" folks are good people, I have worked with them a lot on various projects and recommend them highly.

:D

[DaveJ]

Hi Doc,

Well its been a few weeks since the bed went in and a full week since the detrivore kit was seeded. Every thing seems to be doing well so far. I have patches of bubbles in the sand and worm tracks all over. Nothing monumental yet, but there is hope :) Now if I can my two replacement tangs to stop their wrestling, I would be happy :mad:

My question this time around has to do with timing. About how long before the DSB actually starts to work at full efficiency? I am still getting a bit of nitrates, nothing major and no slime or anything growing that shouldn't be.

Also, I have a fiji blue devil that is hell bent on readjusting my bed. He has focused on a corner and has a mound about 1/2" or so high dug out. He swims down, flicks his tail and sand goes all over. Will his attention harm the bed at all?? I can yank him if it will, but I KNOW it will be a pain the butt to get him out.

Ohh.. while checking my tidepool, I pulled out another dozen baby trochus..:D I think these are all from the same batch as before, or a little afterwards due to their sizes. The others are getting big though, they are up to almost dime size now.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by DaveJ

Hi Dave,

My question this time around has to do with timing. About how long before the DSB actually starts to work at full efficiency?

It will be a couple of months before full denitrification capability, but it should really be kicking soon. Once the detritivores start their processing, the capability will increase consistently.

I figure it takes a bed about a year to become fully functional and stable (and by fully functional, I am including such functions as feeding the tank, etc.). Nitrogen processing occurs earlier.

> Will his attention harm the bed at all??

As long as it remainsl localized it won't be a problem.

Good luck!!:D