Copper Problem? Big Mistake?

[striker3636]

When filling up my new 150 gal tank (over 200 gal with sump), I needed to bring my mixed salt water up from the basement, so I used a new garden hose hooked into my pump...It was pretty slow at that head level, and took around two days to fill...
Unfortunately, before I figured out that it could be a problem, the hose fittings had been submerged in my sump and mixing barrel for the two days... I suspect they are brass (mostly copper), so how bad of a mistake have I made?

I put my live rock in a few days ago, the only life I still see is a couple of pretty sad looking bristleworms, they wriggled around on the sand bed for a couple of days, and then they died... Could very well be due to the long time out of water, but have I made a major error with the brass fittings? I noticed that even after only two days in the salt water, the chromed anti-kink spring on the hose had started to corrode.

Is there a problem here? What about the copper piping in my house that all my water sits in before it hits the RO/DI?

[esmithiii]

I wouldn't worry about it. The amount of Cu that would have leached is in the ppb range, far lower than what would be found in nature. If the water were highly acidic, or if the exposure were over months or years then it would be different.

Ernie

[striker3636]

bump

[guitarfish]

I agree, don't worry about it. You can always get a copper test kt if you want to measure it though.

[lil_mikey69]

If your really concerned about it pick up a copper test kit. Sounds like there was very little exposure, so I cant imagine theres much to worry about.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would worry. :(

There are posts from folks who have crasahed tanks from a single incident such as that.

I recommended in another thread that striker do a 100% water change and run some polyfilters. Seems like cheap insurance, rather than finding out later that the tank continues to kill everything.

The amount of Cu that would have leached is in the ppb range, far lower than what would be found in nature.

Would it? How do you know? Also, natural seawater rarely contains more than 0.4 ppb, unless it is contaminated.


The related thread in the chemistry forum:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=276564

[esmithiii]

The fittings on a garden hose weigh roughly 20g. If they were completely dissolved by the saltwater (200gal) then the resulting cu concentration would be roughly 27 ppm. I think if he checks, his hose fittings will still be attached to the hose.

In fact, they will be there if he were to run 20,000 water changes. Think about the math and common sense- We use standard garden hoses on boats to pump bilge water all the time and the hoses last for ages (read thousands of gallons).

As for "cheap insurance," I don't know how much you make, but to me the salt to make another 200gal of sw is by no means cheap, not to mention the time and hassle. If you want "cheap insurance" then why not get a test kit?

How much Cu is toxic to inverts? I don't know, but I personally have done water changes using a water hose for years without problems.

[striker3636]

I'll be changing out about 55 gallons tomorrow, mostly due to the live rock cycling process...
I did go out and buy a bottle of cupri-sorb, though, just to be safe...It's in my sump now...
Hopefully, I won't have a problem... It's just making me nervous with the two little dead bristleworms... maybe the kicked the bucket due to ammonia... It's reading around 1.2 on my salifert test right now...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How much Cu is toxic to inverts? I don't know,

That is probably worth knowing before claiming mathematically that a particular copper level is OK. Test kits do not test low enough to preclude toxicity to all organisms in our aquaria.


I'm glad that you've used garden hoses OK. Does that mean that every garden hose is OK?

You've not seen any posts from folks that had tank crashes from such exposures?

[guitarfish]

There are many here who use tap water delivered through copper pipes. In my case, I used well water for a year. A friend in the area, for four years. Buy a copper test kit, and test your water. I think you'll see there's nothing to worry about.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, there are some who use tap water. And there are others who have way to much copper in their tap water from their copper pipes. Water supplies frequently add things to reduce leaching of copper and lead, and even then often fail and have more than 1 ppm copper from the pipes.

A test kit is a fine idea, but if you detect any, that is too much. If you detect none, that may still be too much.

I'm not saying that the hose is necesarily a problem. But despite assertions about how expensive it is, for $50 you can do a 100% water change on a 200 gallon tank. Why not do that and avoid any risk to organisms that are likely to cost much more?



.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, this web site summarizes toxicity effects for copper chloride on many organisms. Some demonstrate toxicity at 10 ppb or less.

http://preview.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC36567

There are a great many factors that determine toxicity beyond concentration. Speciation of the metal, for example. Copper is bound to organics. What those organics are may impact toxicity tremendously. My aquarium has about 10 ppb copper. Is that hurting anything? I don't know. But I would not like to see that value rise up to 100 ppb. Bear in mind that the 27 ppm that was quoted above for the whole fitting dissolving is thousands of times more than the 10 ppb level described by some, including Ron Shimek, as being toxic.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The tox data for copper sulfate is even more extensive, and includes corals:

http://preview.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33538

[striker3636]

I presume that your copper test on your own tank was done with something other than your basic LFS shelf copper test kit?
As I asked before, can you actually read ppb with one of those?
I don't want to waste my money on one of those tests if it won't read down in the levels I'm probably at.

[esmithiii]

Randy-

I don't mean to be argumentative, nor do I mean to undervalue your opinion: you know considerably more about chemistry than I do. I do think that we often tend to overreact in situations like these, and we often times accept data that is backed by questionable anecdotal evidence at best over common sense.

A couple of factors that I left out of my post when I mentioned the 27 ppm is that most fittings are brass and therefore have less Cu than the 20g to dissolve. Second, I assumed that the toxicity level for inverts would be in the 100 ppb range. If it is less then my bad. Your tank has 10 ppb and I assume your corals are alive. My point is that people use these same hoses for years in marine settings to pump salt water and the hoses last a long time.

To get to 10 ppb, the hose fittings (made of 100% copper) would have to be completely dissolved in 5,284 gal. Do you really think that the hose fittings would COMPLETELY dissolve (making the hose useless) after pumping 5,000 gallons? A typical bilge pump using a garden hose can pump this amount in a matter of hours and the hose seems fine afterwards. If the fittings are brass, then it is even less (there is only about 12g of copper in a 20g brass fitting) roughly 3170 gal.

I don't mean to get into a debate over something seemingly trivial. I personally have not read any posts of anyone who used a garden hose with any ill effects, and I have used one for years with no noticable effects. Fifty bucks is fifty bucks, which could be used to buy any number of other things, many of which would provide more "insurance" than doing a water change at this point.

Good links, BTW. Very informative.

Ernie

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As I asked before, can you actually read ppb with one of those?


No, you cannot read copper levels that low with a kit. I used an instrument at my lab.


Ernie:

I don't want to argue it either, since I don't have any perfect answers. I was just being more conservative. I do not know how much copper might be released by passing salt water through a garden hose. The first 200 gallons might dissolve a lot more than later gallons as the hard to dissolve stuff will eventually be left behind on the brass, reducing further dissolution.

Anyway, what's done is done, and let's just hope everything works out OK. :)

[esmithiii]

Randy-

Understood. Good info on the links you provided.

Ernie

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but here are some old threads that I was looking for where a small brass part caused a problem. Obviously, a 4 day exposure is different than a single pass through a hose, however:

http://www.reefcentral.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=53138

http://www.reefcentral.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=53238