Want to buy this reef tank but have questions....

[kbreese]

NEED HELP PLEASE..Considering buying this tank but have questions...
NEWBIE WARNING, I am a newbie so forgive my ignorance.

Does the Live rock have a lifespan and does it get dull as time goes on? (you will see why i ask this question later on b/c b/c the guy suggests getting some new rock)

Also, Why do some reef tank pictures I see just look like regular rock while others have tons of beautiful colors and are flowing with all kinds of plants (not sure what they technically are (SPS Coral??). Can this Corral be put on or seeded into the "live rock"?

For example compare the picture here (the tank/setup I am looking at possibly buying) http://www.fishprofiles.com/interac...ad.asp?id=24520

to THIS:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/totm/index.htm

Thats a HUGE difference, one looks lifeless and the other is amazing. Granted i know i can't expect that right off the bat but close would be nice...


Lastly, IF YOU COULD PLEASE TAKE THE TIME to read what this guy *the one selling the tank I am looking into purchasing)is saying and sound if everything sounds ok, I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT!

When I asked him about the tank I am considering purchasing these were his responses:

(1)"The setup is about five years old. There is some hair algae and some bubble
algae but it can be recurred and used as base rock. There is a lot of rock
as you can see from the photo. I would definitely add some new live rock
after you have cycled the tank. Not all at once. SLOWLY! As far as
maintenance the 5 gallon pail with chemical pump adds the fresh water daily
and lasts about a week. There is about a quart of evaporation a day. I add
calcium into the make up water and that is also feed through the chemical
pump. I will include the timer for the light which I leave on for 10 hours
a day. There is also a timer on the refungium tank."

(2)"Not all the water will be salvaged. Plus it would be good to clean out the
gravel which is about 1" thick. I would put the live rock into buckets with
lids and top off with the tank water. That should be fine. Even though
there is a lot of rock some of it had coral on it that died off. So it
would be good to use most of the rock but add some new rock. New rock has
all kinds of life growing on it and it looks much nicer.
It's good to ad pieces slowly over time. Also spreads out the cost. The
tank will not do a full cycle because the filter, rock and water. Salt
water tank go through a nitrogen cycle. Which could take up to a month on a
fresh start up. After the tank clear you can add the fish. Hardy ones at
first then the more delicate ones. You will also notice salt water tanks
stay very clear. Unlike fresh water tanks that must be cleaned often salt
water tanks require fewer water changes. BUT each water change adds fresh
chemical and nutrients that are needed. Some if you where to do say 10%
changes every month you would be fine.
Plant for the refungium can be purchase online from many vendors but I have
never grown from seeds. Find a good local fish store the should help with
the corals and plants. But I have found that online is the way to go.
Drsfostersmith.com is a great site for just about everything. Live or not.
Plants can be inthe tank and also in the refungium. Plants help filter the
water and lower nitates. Best by far."

I just don't know enough to know if this is a good setup or even if this guy knows what he is talking about... (no offense to him if he see's this). I assume he does, but want to make sure before just jumping into something.

[BLUESMAN]

Your first site "could not be found". It sounds like a good tank...what size?? Lighting?? Blue

[kbreese]

Its a 55 gallon setup and his asking price is $375. Here is the decription:

"55 Gallon Reef Set Up. Everything included you need nothing else. Set-up includes 55 gallon bottom drilled tank with overflow stand pipe, 2 power compact smart light systems thats 4 65watt pc 50/50 bulbs, Tunze 3150 intank protein skimmer the best, 4 power heads for circulation with surface skimming, ebo jager heater, digital thermoeter, 10 gallon sump refugium set-up with it's own light & pump, 6" bed of Kent bio sediment, one Florida mangrove plant and marco algea, 5 gallon make-up pail with chemical feed pump for evaporation. And of course LOTS of LIVE ROCK. Even includes the fish if they live the transfer. I have a yellow tang, sailfin tang, spotted grouper, and a blue devil damsel. WOW!!!I'am getting tiered typing!! Please email me with any questions. PICK UP ONLY!!"

try this link instead:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=24520

Scroll down and you will see 2 pics of the tank.

[CrystalAZ]

Personally, I think that sounds like a great deal. It will get you started and you can always replace anything that is complicated.

No matter what you get, you'll end up replacing some of the equipment. If you want the really pretty corals like the tank of the month photo, you'll need to upgrade your lighting. Of course, you can always wait a while since those are better suited for more experienced reefers anyway.

This hobby will be much more expensive than you think it will no matter what. :)

I see that you like color. There are LOTS of colorful reef-safe fish besides blue tangs. What I did was go to www.liveaquaria.com and look through their marine fish section. I picked the ones I liked, and then came back and did a search on that fish here on RC to see what peoples' experiences with them are. Some got ruled out immediately and some went onto my stock list. :)

Some real colorful ones are royal grammas (under BASSLETS), the fridmani pseudochromis (beautiful color!) and the reef-safe fairy wrasses. All very colorful! And of course some bright orange clownfish are fun to watch and add a different color.

I agree with the person that said take all the fish he is offering back to your LFS and exchange them for store credit. Then you can use that to get some fish that will be happy in a 55 g tank.

Oh and READ READ READ. I read RC for 3 months before I even bought a tank and learned a lot from other peoples' mistakes.

Good luck!

Crystal

[kbreese]

Thanks for your response and recommendations on the fish!

So is this pretty good equipment or stuff that I will likely want to replace. I don't want to just know is the price cheap, but is it actually a good setup....

the stand by the way is steel with 3/4" birch plywood covering. The edges are also laminated with birch.

[RamManOK]

not too bad. Definitely take the tangs as they need more room and the grouper will be too large for a 55. Just a comparison, I bought a 55 gallon with stand, cheapo lighting, and two fish (that didn't survive) for $100. Depending on how much "a lot of liverock" is, it sounds like a pretty good deal.

[CrystalAZ]

The heater, thermometer, powerheads and sump/refugium look good. I don't know anything about Tunze protein skimmers, so someone else will need to answer that.

The live rock is good too. Don't bleach it! Just get critters to keep your algae under control. He probably couldn't have snails, hermits, and shrimp with his grouper but if you take the grouper back to the LFS, you can. Plus you'll get the benefit of the other miniature critters that live in the rock without killing them just to get rid of some algae.

The lights are ok for fish only or soft corals, but you will have to replace them eventually when you are ready for hard corals.

If it is working as is, then it will likely keep working. As you read and learn and see how everything works, you'll know if you want to replace equipment or not.

I still say it is a great deal. The live rock alone could cost almost as much as this tank.

Is this a local buy, where you can go pick the tank up? If so, I'd take some containers to put the rock in when you go get it. Then you can put rock and some water in the containers and set it back up when you get it home. You may also want to see if any local reefers will help you set up if you are a newbie. From what I've read, they usually will if you offer pizza and beer. :)

Crystal

[kbreese]

Thanks again for your reponse and good advice about the critters. I have read a bit about that. Did you see the 2 pictures of the tank?


here is one of his first emails which descrbies it more:


The stand is steel with 3/4" birch plywood covering. The edges are also
laminated with birch. The finish is like a light white wash. No formica.
Very strong. Was never wet. There is no flaking, it's in great condition.
Everything is in good running condition. The tank and stand are around five
years old. Everything else is somewhat new. The refungium set up is less
then a year old. I original had a trickle filter but today refungiums are
the way to go. ( no nitrates). The power compact light alone where over
$300.00 and are a year old. The protein skimmer was another $200.00 and is
about a year and a half old. The system is running right now and will only
be taken down upon sale. I will put everything in buckets and even try and
save some water.

If you didnt see the pics, hopefully this link is working, but 2 pics are in this thread just scroll down:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=24520

[bluehippotang]

The bulbs for the power compact lighting should be changed. You should be able to pick up bulbs for about $20 each.

[ddawson]

I agree with all the above. Buying a used tank is a great way to guaranty that it doesn’t leak. Dump the fish; change the bulbs and your pretty set at a good price.

Dan

[kbreese]

Originally posted by bluehippotang
The bulbs for the power compact lighting should be changed. You should be able to pick up bulbs for about $20 each.

why should they be changed when they are brand new?:confused:

[David P]

PC bulbs only last about a year. They still work but the dont put out the PAR (Photosynthetic Available Radiation) that is needed for coral growth.

[Fizz71]

You asked a couple questions that were partially answered and I'm bored so I'll add to them....

The tank this guy is selling is setup for FOWLR - Fish Only w/ Live Rock. The Tank of the Month you linked is a "Reef Tank". To go from FOWLR to Reef you need: better lighting, more water flow, a better cleanup crew, you'll need to be very mindful of nitrates since they aren't nearly as dangerous to fish as to coral, you'll need to buy more test kits since we care about stuff FOWLRs don't, and you'll have to watch what fish you buy since many fish will eat corals and clean-up crew critters. The lighting you have now will be fine for soft corals, but hard corals like SPS and LPS (small polyp, large polyp) corals, anemones, clams, etc, you're going to need a bit more. I'd also look into an RO/DI filter for your water source depending on what's in your tap water.

I totally agree that those fish he has need to go back. A 55 is pushing it for one tang let alone 2 (tangs are swimmers and need at-least 4ft of swimming room) and spotted grouper can hit a foot long in a tank! (I've seen one about 18" in the wild). A grouper is also not "reef safe" if you plan to keep snails or any shrimp that can fit in his mouth.

And if you're returning the fish, I disagree with the "buy a little rock at a time" concept. By all the new rock to help re-seed the current rock (which shouldn't need to be done ever again if it's taken care of) so you can go through one cycle and be done with it. You'll want a total of about 75lbs of rock, so find out what he's got already. Also take a look at your sand options..there are a lot of choices out there...you can search for them..DSB, Bare bottom, crushed coral, etc.

Definitely get some books and READ READ READ..I suggest "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" for concepts, "Marine Fishes" by Scott Micheal for a fish buyer guide and my coral book is ancient so I won't recommend it, but "Aquarium Corals" by Eric Borneman is very popular in here...and he's an RC member. And have you seen this yet:
http://reefcentral.com/modules.php?s=&name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1
..and if you want to drool at what's out there for sale:
http://www.liveaquaria.com
..I haven't bought for them yet, but I read up on purchases on their site and to setup my "wish list" and keep an eye on compatibility.

The price he's offering sounds pretty good for the system, especially since live rock will run you at-least $5 a pound..that adds up quick. This hobby has been know to drain people dry of funds..:)..but you won't regret it. You can make it as cheap or as expensive as you want..depending on what you want to keep and what you're willing to do yourself (DIY projects).

If there is any thing said in this post or elsewhere that you don't understand, use the "Search" feature of this site and you'll get a lot of insight on things like "RO" "DI" "DSB" "FOWLR", etc. Read EVERY post in this place as an IMO: In My Opinion. There is no one "Right Way" to do a reef, only bad ideas. You will see successful setups in here with a wide variety of setups. Read about as many as you can, and make your own choices. Take your time, nothing good happens fast in a reef...you'll here that often.

..and oh yeah..be mindful of advise from LFSs (local fish stores). Many want to sell you everything they can...the folks in here have nothing to gain from the advise they give you. What you get in here is a variety of experiences..not a sales pitch.

And lastly..let us know what area you live in..and check out the reefer groups in your area. They'll help you out, and if you can find a group that meets and trades "frags" (fragments of corals raised in people's tanks)...you can have a great tank and help keep your costs down by getting coral frags, live sand, and macro algae from them.

Shew..that's enough...good luck and welcome to RC.

--Fizz

[kbreese]

Rizz -

Hey thanks for the great post. I appreciate and fully read ALL responses, and I really appreciate you taking the time to be so thorough. Often people will reply and its veery short and hard to understand especially for a newbie. Again, i still appreciate any kind of response, but I REALLY appreciate a response like that.

By the way, I live on Long island.

As far as that tank I think I waited to long and it was sold but now I am eyeing up this one. its a lot more $$ but it's a 90 gallon the whole setup is only a month and a half old. This is it, let me know what you think:

"1 and a half month old 90 Gal Saltwater Setup. The tank is setup as we speak with no problems the tank is still under warranty!

Tank Oak & Stand Oak
48" AGA Triple Light fixture with 3 upgraded bulbs 50/50
All Glass Canopy
Over 100Lbs of LIVE CURED beautiful rock worth close to a $1,000.00
Over 100Lbs of LIVE SAND (nice DSB)
Oceanic Sump 2 with bio balls, filter pads, and carbon (sump is about 30Gal)
Mag Drive 9.5 For return water
Berlin Turbo Protein skimmer
2 Maxi jet 1200 power heads
Rio 2100 Pump
2 Rena 250 W heaters
3 thermometers
3 fish food clips
all different kinds of food
Deep Six Salinity tester
Saltwater master test kit (pH, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite)
8 or so 5Gal buckets
50 foot python siphon
Timer for light
Book SALTWATER FOR DUMMIES
Xtreme garlic and other things..
Extra plumbing hoses and parts so much stuff.

* I might be missing a few little things email me if you are wondering about anything or have any questions I will try and answer them as best as I can."

___live stock___
1 yellow Tang
1 Clownfish
1 Chocolate Starfish
2 Green Damsels

27 Turbo snails the Cone shaped
13 Trochus Snails
13 Red leg hermits
7 Scarlet hermits
3 Halloween hermits

[Fizz71]

So what's the price? It sounds like a nice setup..still FOWLR though. Me personally..I'd ditch the bio balls and the RIO pump. The bio balls have gotten the reputation of being a "nitrate factory":
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243862

..and a search on RIOs will tell some pretty scary stories. I think I have one Rio left, and I only use it to pump water out of my RO/DI holding tank. Mags are sweet though..they can run hot, but they're reliable.

I don't use the typical sump, and I had a wet/dry that used bio-balls once for about 2 weeks so I can't state personal experience to the "nitrate factory" comment on those. My system is quite odd..the "sump" hangs on the back of the tank..I doubt anybody in here has a system like mine..hence my comments about setup diversity.

I think the live sand is over kill, the right kind of play sand with a thin layer of live sand is working pretty well for me, but if the price is right, it's certainly not a BAD thing.

As for the tank itself..the bigger the better in this hobby..more water volume means a more stable system, although it also means a thinner wallet. :)

And if you're planning on going reef, the Chocolate Chip Star (if that's what it is) has GOT to go..they can be coral killers...been there..done that.

As for the lighting...well..that looks like it's a step back. I'm thinking they're NO (normal output) which means the total wattage is 120 (3x40's.. 1.3 watts per gallon..ouch). That's not going to cut it for much of anything in corals. To compare--the 55 was running 4x65 of PC which is 260 total watts (4.7 watts per gallon) ..more than twice the lighting, and more than 3 times watt/gal ratio. I also don't use glass tops, they cut back on air exchange and keep heat in. If you're handy, you could build yourself a nice hood and get some kind of retro-fit lighting kit with PC, VHO or even MH. That's kinda what I did. To give you a comparison..my 105g is running 850 total watts...8.7 watts per gallon and that's STILL light because a 105 is pretty deep..by next summer I plan on uping that to 1150 watts total, over 10 watts per gallon, so I can keep clams. Like I said..you can spend alot or a little depending on what you want to keep.

Lighting can get expensive..take a look at championlighting.com and marinedepot.com to get an idea...they're both RC sponsors..I've never ordered from champion, but I use Marine Depot all the time...too much probably. :)

Good luck.

--Fizz with an "F" :)

[kbreese]

Hey thanks again for the thorough reply, well that tank had a "Buy it now" of $2500 (they claimed cost over $3000 for everything) but had a starting bid of $850, but no bids with only a couple hours to go. So I emailed an offer of $800, and the person refused the offer and claimed to have had offers for $1350, which I think was BS, b/c there are still no bids. Plus they kept emailing me back telling me how much the stuff cost him...

Anyhow, BACK TO SEARCH FOR A NICE USED SETUP....

I guess I missed the boat on that 55 Gallon setup, but to be honest I think I might like a larger setup like a 90-155g tank simply b/c I feel I will probably like most people want to quickly upgrade a 55. granted if the right deal comes a long I will still take a 55g. But I will continue to consult you/this board before I buy....

PS-the cost of lighting sounds like it can get quite scary!