ok im really confused now!!!

[mantashrimpman]

K before u crucify me I do work at a local pet store but I'm on this site to learn more about saltwater aquariums so hear me out. Today I got the one hour lecture on how to set up a saltwater aquarium. Ok now during the lecture a couple contradicting points came up. I've been surfing this site for a while and have read many forms so when the info I was getting from my boss didn’t match what I learned on this site thus I got confused lol.

Ok Point 1
Deep sand beds are CRAP!!! I was basically told that dsb is not in anyway effective and that a under gravel system with crushed coral and a few power heads is the way to go??? He said that there needs to be a flow of water coming through the sand to oxygenate the crushed coral and that with no flow the sand bed would become useless. He also said something about crushed coral and how it lowers something in the water; I missed this bit of info trying to understand how the anaerobic bacteria would survive in an aerobic environment. Is this rite??? Everyone seems to be against ugf so it made me think.

Point 2
Protein skimmer is only effective the first 6 months before the tank is established and after that the 300 dollar investment is not necessary. I guess the reasoning behind this when I asked was that after the tank is established the ugf takes care of the protein.

Well I don't know is this info correct??? I just had to ask. Am I reading all the info on the forums wrong? Is the ugf the way to go I just wanted to make sure I'm not giving my customers the wrong info. Any info on these two points would help a lot. I didn’t want to argue with my boss so I just asked a few questions. I didn’t want to attack his ideas because I like my job and I don’t want to get fired but if I can make sure what he is telling me is correct I can relay the info to my customers with out questioning my own input. Thanks for your time and reading my long post

Mike

[grahxen]

Originally posted by mantashrimpman
K before u crucify me I do work at a local pet store but I'm on this site to learn more about saltwater aquariums so hear me out. Today I got the one hour lecture on how to set up a saltwater aquarium. Ok now during the lecture a couple contradicting points came up. I've been surfing this site for a while and have read many forms so when the info I was getting from my boss didn’t match what I learned on this site thus I got confused lol.

Ok Point 1
Deep sand beds are CRAP!!! I was basically told that dsb is not in anyway effective and that a under gravel system with crushed coral and a few power heads is the way to go??? He said that there needs to be a flow of water coming through the sand to oxygenate the crushed coral and that with no flow the sand bed would become useless. He also said something about crushed coral and how it lowers something in the water; I missed this bit of info trying to understand how the anaerobic bacteria would survive in an aerobic environment. Is this rite??? Everyone seems to be against ugf so it made me think.

Point 2
Protein skimmer is only effective the first 6 months before the tank is established and after that the 300 dollar investment is not necessary. I guess the reasoning behind this when I asked was that after the tank is established the ugf takes care of the protein.

Well I don't know is this info correct??? I just had to ask. Am I reading all the info on the forums wrong? Is the ugf the way to go I just wanted to make sure I'm not giving my customers the wrong info. Any info on these two points would help a lot. I didn’t want to argue with my boss so I just asked a few questions. I didn’t want to attack his ideas because I like my job and I don’t want to get fired but if I can make sure what he is telling me is correct I can relay the info to my customers with out questioning my own input. Thanks for your time and reading my long post

Mike

Ok, where to start. You didnt specify if your talking about fish only tanks, or reefs tanks, but I honestly dont think what I am about to say will really matter. First of all, the use of an undergravel filter is rarely used in saltwater tanks, to be honest with you I don't think many freshwater tanks even go that route anymore.
So to say this, you dont want to use an undergravel filter in satwater. Even if its fish only, thats definatly not the best option. Now as far as DSB are concernced, I do believe whoever told you this information shouldnt be doing what hes doing. Mabey he/she should try selling vaccums or something.

One of the principal benefits to deep sand bed methodologies is the potential for natural nitrate reduction (NNR). The speed and extent to which a DSB can reduce nitrate in an aquarium is quite amazing actually, especially those that have struggled with nitrate control for any length of time through other means. The benefits to an established tank with the upgrade to a DSB are apparent in just a few weeks with potential for complete nitrate reduction (to “zero�)! Now doesnt this sound alot better then being "crap"?

Another significant advantage to deep sand beds is the provision of a dense and natural habitat for numerous micro and macro-organisms. Many fishes and invertebrates cannot be kept successfully or at least optimally without a DSB. Some popular wrasses, jawfishes and gobies… horseshoe crabs, sea cucumbers, stingrays and many other featured creatures will not thrive without thick sandy substrates. Countless invertebrates including some corals will only survive on a sandy seafloor (hard substrates like rock are inhospitable to their feeding strategies and polyp cycles). At various and increasing depths, DSBs provide natural foods for these fishes and reef invertebrates like microcrustaceans (amphipods, copepods, mysid shrimp, etc), bacteria and other nanoplankton. DSBs also provide habitat for desirable plants, algae and animals. The point is, a DSB or even a smaller sand bed will be much more benificial then not having one at all. There is no argument as to whether a DSB works or not, the only argument there is to be made is how long they last, will they crash etc.

As far as your skimmer question, whoever told you this really should do some more reading of his/her own. The main purpose of skimming is to remove organic matter from the water before it decays. Organic matter that has not been removed will break down to ammonia- nitrite and nitrates. What he/she said about not needing one months after the tank is running is wrong. You will need a skimmer just as much 8 months down the road as in the beginning. Remember, your stocking your tank with animals that produce waste, rock that produce detrius etc. These need to be removed somehow, and skimming is how. The part about the UGF removing protein, well I had to laugh when i read that one. The sole purpose of an UGF is the same purpose as any other type of bioligcal filtration, and that is to just have a place to where benifical bacteria can adhere to, and convert harmful ammonia, or nitrite into nitrate. UGF does nothing to remove organics. A reef tank with Live Rock serves this purpose. UGF might be ok on a 10 gallon fresh water tank with goldfish :)

I suggest that you print this out, and bring this into whoever told you that crazy information. I hope this was some help.

Mike

[Stormbringer22]

Here's some answers for your questions! Your boss knows that the items he's wanting you to sell, are the money makers for the store. I use a protien skimmer (Aqua-C), & a Deep sand bed. Search around this site for more info. The attached picture is a 75g/70g sump, no undergravel filter! I hope this helps!http://www.wetwebmedia.com/reefsysi.htm

[phenom5]

hey Mike,
well let me say i applaud you for taking the time to learn something and i wish my lfs had employees like you working the fish dept. as far as arguing with your boss, i wouldn't, he'll probably get ****ed and fire you. IMO, you'd be better served to educate yourself and your coworkers, and most importantly your customers. and i am still researching myself, so i am by no means an expert.

UGF's are crap. you end up with a nasty mess under the filter, which makes the UGF's filtering ability useless, and you've got to tear apart the tank to fix the prob. there are good points and bad points to a DSB, do a search and you find plenty to read about the advantages/disadvantages of DSB's.

since you don't want a UGF in the first place, it wouldn't be there to do the skimmers job. even if you did have an UGF i can't imagine it would be an effective skimmer.

the experts of RC can help you out more then i, but if there's one thing i've learned about SW tanks in the last 6 mos... its research, research, research

[lowbudgetreefkeeper]

ahhh...... theres a fork in the road and you dont know where to go now eh.... its cool... and yes... you will many conflicting stories everywhere.. but in the end... its your decision on whom to believe. so imma try to help you out :thumbsup:

point one: there are three sides to this story. one believes (or wants you to believe) that crushed coral with underground filters are the way to go. hes right that crushed corals will be most effective with an UGF cause it will need lots of oxygen to keep it running at its peak. this will help cause the following > ammonia>>nitrite>>>nitrate. there is nothing wrong with this at all... unless....you are running a reef system. in a fish only system fish can do just fine with it, however, in a reef, crushed coral beds convert those so effectively, it puts too much nitrate into the system, causing corals to eventually suffer and die from it, not to mention that algae feed from nitrates and may soon to grow over and smother the corals. (some corals and photosynethic clams do like the nitrate however, but IMO too much will still cause them to suffer unless water changes are preformed in order to keep them in check) crushed coral can also trap debris ( the CC bed is able to be vaccumed once it does so), another reason it puts more nitrate into the water. So generally, you will rarely see a person keep (and maintain)a CC bed for a reef tank. The second group of people do believe that DSBs are the way to go. DSBs dont nearly get as much detritus into the sand as crushed coral does. So already it doesnt produce the amount of nitrate as a CC bed does. Though dsbs are also very effective in reducing nitrate, they are also good into turning nitrate into nitrogen gas. This means that nitrate can totally be eliminated from the system, rather than being turned into another less harmful waste product. This is done because the DSB has two layers, an aerobic and anaerobic layer. The aerobic layer is oxygenated and kept clean by animals that inhabit and stir that layer of sand. At about 4 inches is where an anaerobic layer forms, and converts nitrates into nitrogen gas, where it will eventually rise, and escape from the system. The third group believes that believes permament DSBs or DSBs in general are not the way to go. This is because as a DSB ages, they believe that more nutrients will be trapped in the sand bed and will be eventually be released after a number of years or if the sand bed was ever disturbed (that means no vaccuming). This meant that the bed either had to be replaced every few years or the entire tank could possibly crash. It is for these reasons why people either install remote DSBs which is a sand bed in a place that can easily be replaced, such as in a sump or refugium or they chose to have no sand bed or CC bed at all and go bare bottom. These these choices either be quite costly if you have a large tank (the idea of paying a maximum of about $1/lb for sand every few years can easily add up to about hundreds when you have to replace it) or it will have the effect of not having the ablility to process ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate as effectively as a tank with a sand or CC bed would. Though you would need powerheads to circulate water in a tank with a UGF, they would not be your only option if you were going to JUST circulate water in your tank (though powerheads would usually be the most cheapest and practical way to do so)

Point 2: Again two sides to this issue. But before I address the two sides i would like to say that skimmers are always effective, not just for six months (you will see why soon) however, that $300 skimmer may or may not be worth it depending on what stance you take in using them. One sides says that its absolutely nesessary to have a skimmer. They help take away waste products from the system before they are converted into something else as well as various other things in the tank that carbon alone may not be able to pick up. This can help lengthen the time you have between water changes (though not eliminate them). The second side says that skimmers are not nesessary for the operation of a tank. Though its still true that it still removes waste and chemicals like normal, it also strips zooplankton, elements, and dissolved organic material, all of which can be of use to the growth and health of corals (dissolved organic materials to a lesser extent however). UGFs will not remove contaminants or other wastes from the tank, they are only of used in conjunction with crushed coral (sand will render UGFs usless as they will clog the slits used to circulate water through the bottom) in converting ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate. Anybody who tells you otherwise about UGFs are either lying or sadly misinformed.

So as i finally put it, as you can see there is really no right answer, just methods people used that happened to work for them. It is now your turn to sort through this information and finally discover what works for you or can work for your customers. Personally, for these two issues, ive taken a stance somewhere in the middle between all of them. Instead of a minimum of a 4 inch sand bed, i have taken a 3 inch sandbed in the main tank, while i shall establish a 4 in sand bed inside my soon to be fuge. Also, for a protein skimmer, i have continuously ran a weaker skimmer than what is rated for my tank so i could still remove wastes, but also not wipe the water column of my tank clean of what could possibly be helpful to the corals of my tank.

Hope this helps!

[swims withthe fishes]

as for the protein skimmer, if you've ever been walking on the beach and seen the nasty foam rolling up with the waves, this is the oceans natural protein skimmer and works just like grahxen said, we are trying to re create the ocean as best we can, unfortunately the moon doesn't create a tide in our tanks to allow this to happen without mechanics.

and for ugf adding oxygen to the sand bed, the idea is to have little to no oxygen IN the sandbed so that nitrates can further be processed(as grahxen said), that's why people are ditching the bioballs and all other wet/drys that your LFS probably gets good bucks for.

i feel your pain, i worked for a LFS and the GM was a moron. now i work for another who will say anything to make the sale, there is only 1 more in town worth anything and they want to hand me a job, hope i get some competent people this time. take my advise and do what i did, don't argue with him about it, and just inform the customer of what you think is right, always express that what you are saying is your opinion and that everyone does things differently, so they may get different responses, even from your co-workers, and that it's up to them to research and decide what is right. Research Research and research some more, then you'll be able to smack down any rediculous thing your boss tells you, and god does it feel good.

good luck to ya

[mantashrimpman]

thanks for all the info its been a great help and he was talking about a fo tank. i guess i will keep on reading and reading and reading lol oh well its fun to learn.
mike

[Myladyfish]

Point one, crushed corals are no good or so far from what I heard in reefcentral, but I've been using sand forever. I also heard that the bed should be either thin or thick never in between! But, IMO thick is better than thin any day, mine is about 4.5 cm... if you could go thicker it's even better! Flows through the bed are not good because it destroys the bacteria community inside it. Useful bacteria reside that break down ammonia and nitrite reside there, and they find it comfortable to be somewhere where it's less oxygen, cozy and static... by flowing the water through it, you encourage more movement and oxygen that kills these bacteria or at least scatters them everywhere in the tank, which makes them much much less effective in doing their jobs. But, I understand why he prefers the thinner bed... it's because the thicker he'd have to make the bed for the display tanks in his shop the thinner his wallet is... so I suggest you to follow whatever he says... don't worry about the fish... they'll be fine with thin or no sand bed since they mostly don't stay there long. He's your boss after all, just assume he knows everything although it doesn't necessarily mean that he does.

[Casino]

Let us all remember that his boss was just educating him to sell, do you think the he wants his empleyees telling customers that they dont need canister filters, to go to HD and get sand for $6 a bag, that a hippo tang and a clown can live forever in a 2 gallon tank with a skilter filter. Employees will always have conflicts of interists with bosses like this, cause if your a RC member and you know and read all about DSB and no media or filters, which are the good skimmers you cant go and tell a customer about all of what you have learned, you must do as your boss says cause hes the one thats gonna sign your check. You cant tell a customer to just toose a piece of shrimp in the tank to start the cycle, you have to tell tem to get these loveable fish called damsels that magically make the tank beautiful, even thou inside your guts are shruging. Can you imagine if you boss sends somebody to the back, to tell you to give them 5 damsels so that customer can cycle a tank, you go and say, Ohh god, dont do that, its so cruel, just toose a shrimp in there, or get some LR. The customers goes happy, on his way out tells the boss, no need for the damsels, that fantastic employye you have told me about the shrimp, see you in a few weeks, I dont want to be there when your boss gets a hold of you. Now if you have a good boss, that knows about the hobby, and knows how to take our money the right way, you will have happy customers forever, instead of having to look at a little girl in the face and try to explain why her hippo tang kinda hugged to death his friend the clown in the the 2 gallon tank.

[fishermike]

Everyone is giving you good information but in my mind it is somewhat incomplete. I took everyone's advice on a dsb and later found out that it was not a good idea for my size tank. It will take a lot of work on my part to keep it going! There are many ways to create a succesfull reef and I am sure that you will encounter many different approaches in your days at the lfs. Be flexible and listen to everyone, take the info and decide for yourself based on your past observations. What works in one tank may not work in another, so it goes in reef tanks.

With that said, I agree that ugf's are NOT the way to go! Protein skimmers are very effective but they are not required. They will make things easier, maybe?

[mantashrimpman]

rite on thanks again for the awesome input

[Omidon4]

I just want to point this out... If your boss thinks that DSB (deep sand bed) is so bad and that the UGF is so good, then why are there not UGF in the ocean and there is plenty of sand ;) I don't know if you could tell him that.. but like a post somewhere above me said.. the goal is to be as close to the ocean as possible... we do need some things to be mechanic but if we can use natural means it is much better for all the live stock.

Just food for thought and my $.02

Goodluck!