Is G-Dub an idiot?

[hesaias]

Well, is he?
So many folks say he's stupid. I just wanna know why they think so. Point out to me, if you will, what hes done, that Mr Clinton didnt? Please dont call him a hypocrite either, Mr Clinton wrote a good long chapter in that book also.

[ChrisIsBored]

If these quotes don't fulfill your interest of the lunatic rantings of an idiot... we'll i'm not sure how your wife pleases you at night :p




"You've heard Al Gore say he invented the internet.
Well, if he was so smart, why do all the addresses begin with "W"?"


"If you don't stand for anything, you don't standfor anything!"
Gov. George W. Bush said to a packed rally at Bellevue Community College on Tuesday night.


"They said this issue wouldn't resignate with the People. They've been proved wrong, it does resignate." ("resonate"?!)


"A surplus means there'll be money left over. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a surplus."


"I think we ought to raise the age at which juveniles can have a
gun."


"Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it is—I'm not sure 80
percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent
will get it if I'm the president."


"Our priorities is our faith."


"I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial
profiling, which is illiterate children."


"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to
answer questions. I can't answer your question."
—In response to a question about whether he wished he could take back any of his answers in the
first debate.


"It's a school full of so-called at-risk children. It's how we,
unfortunately, label certain children. It means basically they
can't learn. ... It's one of the best schools in Houston."


... I've been talking to Vicente Fox, the new president of Mexico... I know him... to have gas and oil sent to U.S.... so we'll not depend on foreign oil...


"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."


"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above that which is expected."


"The best way to relieve families from time is to let them keep some of their own money."


"...I don't need to be subliminabable.." Orlando, FL, Sept. 12 -- when caught using subliminal technique in his dirty ads against Gore


"This is what I'm good at. I like meeting people, my fellow citizens, I like interfacing with them."


"Listen, Al Gore is a very tough opponent. He is the incumbent. He represents the incumbency. And a challenger is somebody who generally comes from the pack and wins, if you're going to win. And that's where I'm coming from."


"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do it, that's trustworthiness."


"We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile or hold our allies hostile.''


"if most of the breaks go to wealthy people it's because most of the people who pay taxes are wealthy."



:eek1:

[horge]

Your President strikes me as a competent man.
Not an idiot at all, though he plays that handicap with a deft touch.


No idiot.
Just wilfully wrong on some issues.

:)

[Wolverine]

Whew, I'm going to try to jump in and out before the potential flames get too hot. Aside from the quotes above (most of which I did see clips of, and are not just "taken out of context" or "misquoted"), I've heard many things that Dubya has said that make me very unimpressed by both his speaking abilities and the potential state of our country. Basically, every time I hear him open his mouth I more strongly consider moving out of the country just so I don't have to admit that he's the leader of my country. That's the short of it.

Hes, I do think he's a hypocrit, but that's beside the point. You're making the common assumption that being anti-Bush equals being pro-Clinton. I consider my self neither, and I see no reason why we can't say that they're both hypocrits and liars, which I think is a not uncommon situation with those in Washington.

I'm kind of tired of this assumption. Every time I mention something stupid/bad that the little Bush kid does, somebody responds by saying "yeah, but Clinton did..." I don't care what Clinton did. I was always taught that two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that Bush is a shame to our country does not mean that Clinton wasn't. And saying that Clinton was a shame to our country doesn't mean that Bush isn't.

Dave

[hartman]

ChrisIsBored,

This is the best you can do? Taking quotes out of context to make him look dumb?

Let's review

GWB
College Degree
MBA from Harvard (first pres ever to have one)

Of course you will probably say some unfounded and unprovable claim that he someone "bought" his degrees.

You've heard Al Gore say he invented the internet. Well, if he was so smart, why do all the addresses begin with "W"?"[b/] That was a joke he told, so he not good at jokes does that make him stupid?? NO

[b]"If you don't stand for anything, you don't stand for anything!" He was telling everyone that he believes in his principle and won't sacrifice them from political gain, sounds honorable to me.

resinate." ("resonate"?!) So he messes up words a little does not make him stupid, it makes him a poor speaker.

Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it is—I'm not sure 80 percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent will get it if I'm the president." This was in response to Al Gore saying that his roll back of the death tax would allow 80% of the people not to pay it, which GWB believes under Gore is actually much less. While under his plan he knows 100% will get tax relief because he is going to remove the tax.


"Our priorities is our faith." What in your USA people can't have religion as a major item in their life?

"I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling, which is illiterate children." This was in a debate about the issue of racial profiling in crime, in which GWB stated he felt that today the lack of good education for minorities is more dangerous and destructive to them than racial profiling in crime. While you may not think so lack of education is a very serious problem and he believe it is more important issue.


"We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile or hold our allies hostile.'' Well This one is just BS, I like to see the reference with the day and the audio proving this.


"if most of the breaks go to wealthy people it's because most of the people who pay taxes are
wealthy." .

Well this is the fact if you compare in only dollar amounts. Here a few FACT for you.

Personal Income tax paid to the Federal Government
1) the top 1% pays something like 46% of the total
2) The top 5% pay about about 60%ish

The bottom line is that the people who earn over 50K pay about 92% of the income taxes. But they are not 92% of the population they are less than 35% (I will find the exact #, going on memory).
This is why they are getting more dollars back but not a bigger percentage. Under GWB plan the evil rich will only get OVER ten years a reduction from 39.5 to about 33 or 6.5% or 16% total reduction in their tax burden, while the lowest bracket with drop instally from 15% to 10% or 33% total reduction, Look like the lowest get the best deal to me, since they get 2x the reduction in rate.


Well I see your only a student so when you get your degree and it cost 120,00K and then you land a nice high paying job like say 100k and your watch 50% of your hard earned money go BYE BYE in taxes, you will see the ligth :)


Hartman

[ChrisIsBored]

Good to see you're taking those quotes I posted as a personal attack against you hartman.

Step 1, chill out. Go take some prozac and come back later when you're not overheated.

Next, understand that I didn't say anything about Bush's policies being wrong, half of them i'm for, but I still believe the man is an Idiot with a capital I.

It's funny how someone posts stating the quotes weren't taken out of context, and then you claim all of them are. I didn't say them, I was just referencing them for the rest of us. If you have a beef with anyone, send an email to the webmaster of www.bushisms.com (http://www.bushisms.com), it's their site that provided those quotes.

I'm not here for a heated debate either, so next time you reply, considering talking to a brick wall instead, you'll get more of a response out of that, than you will from me.

[hesaias]

Whatever you do, you must go on the fact he gets tounge tied. Only folks who have a perfect grasp and understanding of the language are even concidered smart, in this country. The rest of us are stupid. Al Gore is the man. Always was and will be. It doesnt matter that he is a pathological liar. He cant even discern the diffrence between truth and lie. Pro Bush equals Anti Clinton? Not even.
If you are so ashamed of our Commander in chief, I think there is a whole list of other countries you can go to. Its that simple. I just wish some one would point out the difference between Dub and any other politicians in washington. Everyone is quick to point out his shortcommings, but nobody seem to think there were any there before He took office. Sorry, it just aint so.
BTW, who among the Bush haters is sending your tax cut back?

[ChrisIsBored]

BTW, who among the Bush haters is sending your tax cut back?

Sorry, have to get this last one in....


The answer... none of us, it's all being spent on gas to his oil buddies....

:eek:

[hesaias]

Heyyyyyy! Your pretty smart!
Dang, I was hoping to find someone who was:D

[hartman]

ChrisIsBored,

I don't take anyone of it as a personal attack :) I take it (if your serious) as an affront to the truth. Yes you can think what you want of him, like him, hate him, but this does not make him an idiot.

I'm not the best writer or speaker and I like the President have dyslexia. Most people with this little problem while lacking in some skills are considered to be highly intelligent (sorry sound like I'm blowing my own horn) But I have lived with this and always received bad grades and labeled "stupid" by teachers,etc.. Funny thing is one teacher saw this and she and my parents had me tested at Harvard and funny thing is I have an I.Q. over 130.(sorry for the horn blowing again)

"As pointed out in © Davis Dyslexia Association International; Reprinted by Permission. The Gift of Dyslexia, by Ronald D. Davis with Eldon M. Braun, many great geniuses such as Leonardo da Vinci, Einstein, Thomas Edison and Winston Churchill were dyslexic. They were labeled dummies or misfits as children, but later made
achievements that changed the world. They were people of vision because they were visual thinkers."

He is not an elegant speaker, and he does not always have every fact at the tip of his tongue.
I will take his mistakes any day over the last 8 years.

The answer... none of us, it's all being spent on gas to his oil buddies....

Please, He (maybe not the VP) was never a real oilman. He ran a small, less than 20 people company that had a few small time pumps. He never made it big in oil and his business ended closing. So if he is so connected to "big oil" how come they did not save him??

Also the US government under Clinton looked for so called price "gouging" and found nothing. Yes they are most likely a few companies out they but they will be busted by Bush trust me.


Here are some refinery facts

Much has been written recently about the "oil crisis" in the United States. Actually, there is no shortage of crude oil at this time. There is a shortage of cheap crude oil.

The Looming Crisis

There is a real, serious "refinery and distribution" crisis approaching rapidly. Refining is the process of converting crude oil into usable products such as gasoline, jet fuel, and heating oil. Distribution is
the means of transporting those refined products from refineries to consumer marketplaces. The crisis will culminate in the 2006-2007 era, and it undoubtedly will result in shortages and higher prices for
gasoline, diesel, and No. 2 heating oil.

It has taken a series of events to get the U.S. refining industry to this condition. To begin with, there have been no new grass roots refineries built in the U.S. for over 25 years. Instead, the number of
refineries has decreased from 365 in 1945 to 155 today.

Existing refineries have expanded and increased efficiency so that today, the combined U.S. refining capacity is slightly more than 16 million barrels per day. U.S. consumption of petroleum products
now averages about 17 million barrels per day--the difference is made up of product imports that for several years have equaled approximately 5 percent of the U.S. consumption. For more than a year,
U.S. refineries have been running essentially "wide open," averaging in excess of 96 percent of capacity.

Many Products, Few Pipelines

In addition to the constraints on the refining capacity, there are limitations to the refinery products distribution system--mostly pipelines. This system was designed to handle six to eight different
products when it was built in the 1960-1970 era. Today, due to the many blends of gasoline required in various cities, the system now has to cope with three dozen different products. This multitude of
products makes the system much more complex and reduces its capacity.

Because excess refining capacity is not always in the location where it is needed, it is essential that products can be moved from one area to another . Naturally, if there are constraints in the
distribution system due to the multiple products that must be handled, then there are times when the distribution system cannot move the proper products to where they are needed. Thus there are spot
areas with shortages.

The multitude of gasoline blends are being dictated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in its quest for cleaner air. Non-attainment areas require "reformulated gasoline," commonly called RFG
in the industry. However, different cities require different blends for RFG, depending on the pollutants prevalent in the air of that city. About 87 percent of the RFG contains methyl tertiary butyl ether,
referred to as MTBE in the industry. The other 13 percent of RFG contains ethyl alcohol.

However, MTBE has been discovered in some groundwater sources in the western part of the U.S. (believed to have leaked from underground gasoline storage tanks.) This has caused a movement to
ban the use of MTBE and to use ethyl alcohol or other oxygen containing compounds in RFG. The elimination of MTBE will require extensive modifications in refineries and will reduce the capacity of
some.

Even More Environmental Regulations

To complicate gasoline and diesel supplies more, on June 1, 2000, the EPA mandated a reduction of sulfur in gasoline to no more than 30 parts per million (ppm) by 2006 and is expected to mandate a
maximum of 30 ppm in diesel also by 2006. The EPA may elect to reduce the standard for diesel to 15 ppm by 2006.

Meeting these standards will reduce the capacity of existing refineries, will require extensive modifications to accomplish this reduction in sulfur, and will require extensive refinery additions to replace the
reduced capacity. (This does not include the normal growth in demand, which is expected to be an additional 2 million barrels per day by 2006.)

The Sheer Magnitude of Work to Get Us There

Refinery additions and modifications to meet these standards will cost in the range of $20 billion. Although average return on refinery investments over the last 20 years has only been 4 percent, there
does not seem to be any reluctance on the part of refinery owners to make these investments.

However, the real constraints to meeting the standards will be availability of engineering contractors to perform these modifications, and the permitting process required by the EPA and state
environmental agencies. Industry experts fear that the shear number of construction permits that will be required may swamp regulatory agencies, preventing timely processing permit applications.

It Can be Done, But…

Experts believe the refining industry can meet these new sulfur standards and replace MTBE in the RFG by the 2006 deadline, provided that construction permits are issued in a timely manner by
regulatory agencies, that there will be adequate engineering and construction crews available, and that these required new specifications are phased in over the six year period.

However, one hiccup, one sneeze, or one bobble and the industry cannot meet these mandated specifications, thus creating shortages.

Once all the modifications are completed, it will add approximately $0.10 to the cost of a gallon of gasoline.

http://www.mapllc.com/newsview/news.htm

http://www.mapllc.com/newsview/news.htm

Hartman

[olgakurt]

Hartman,

I realize this may not be pertinent to the original post. I am currently working on Fuels Policy and Clean Air Requirements and I have to say that while most of the information you quoted is accurate, there is also a lot of misinformation as well.

The umpteen million grades of gas reported are not required under environmental regulations. Environmental rules dictate Reformulated gasoline (RFG) for areas that are designated non attainment areas for ozone OR for areas which have voluntarily OPTED into the program for its clean air benefits. Relatively few areas <10 are also required to have a winter oxy program for CO violations. The various grades quoted by Exxon-Mobile misinterpret the fact and include each octane rating multiplied by the mixtures of gas being produced in the US. Botique fuels and supply issues have become important due to tight refinery capacity and fungability. Unfortunately, many of the major refiners have struck deals with the States to produce additional grades of gas (local botique fuels) in an attempt to prevent the need for inclusion in the RFG program. These blends are not required under environmental regulations and have tended to cause greater volatility in the gas markets. It has been said by the previous administrator that if EPA had its way, there would be only one grade of gas RFG (at a cost of 4-8cents/gallon more than conventional gas).

Estimates of refinery costs have also been greatly exaggerated. The updated investment estimates (from Estimation of the Refining Cost of RFG Nox Control. 1997. Department of Energy) for 6.8% Nox reduction range from $0.2 to $0.8 billion for PADD I (East Coast) and about $0.0 to $0.6 billion for PADD III (Gulf Coast). CA is already producing gas which would achieve the requirements. These costs were the estimated costs associated from going from Phase I to Phase II RFG-I'd imagine similar costs associated with an MTBE ban or removal of the oxy requirement. It was estimated that the industry (with a 10% rate of return) would recoup those investments within 4 years.

EPA is working on a proposal to eliminate MTBE under the Toxic Substances Control Act and will have to do a cost benefit analysis as part of that study. From what I understand the costs of the ban would be largely borne by MTBE merchant plants (95% of which are in TX (Bush) and Wyoming (Cheney))or on water suppliers (citizens). Nonetheless, It appears that the administration is still going forward with the ban proposal (without an oxy waiver-denial of CA) even though it would take a chunk out of fuel supplies.

Incidentally, the replacement oxy (ethanol) also has some problematic issues in that it results in greater VOC emissions (through permeation and commingling) and causes toxic substances in underground gas plumes to migrate further.

While no evidence of collusion has been reported among the oil industry the FTC reported that the price spikes were due (among other things-including 4-8 cents/gallon for environmental rules) to "profit maximizing decisions" by a few refiners to hold back supplies. That's one of the reasons that regular gas spiked as much as the environmentally mandated RFG.

[hartman]

olgakurt,

your give great info, I would love to learn more, I consider myself only at best an informed person not an expert. What exactly are you doing with Fuels Policy and Clean Air Requirements and for who.

These are just question I have since your seem to be right in the thick of it.

Is it not true that there are over 92 blends of gas for car use? Seems to me that if wee just say only 5 even higher cost ones the fact of simplicty would make them lower in cost?

And that in areas refineries can't keep up with demand of some types?

Could we just pick a few types say the top 5 cleanest and just force everyone to use it?

EPA is working on a proposal to eliminate MTBE under the Toxic Substances Control Act,
MTBE is currently to improve burn in gas? and now some think it is causing ground water problems? and they want to replace is with ethanol right? But then CA asked to be waived due to current costs and lack of supply?

Hartman

[DanConnor]

"If you are so ashamed of our Commander in chief, I think there is a whole list of other countries you can go to. Its that simple. "

I've been hearing this one since Nixon. "My president, right or wrong." Well, why didn't you leave while Clinton was in office?

[olgakurt]

Hartman,
The administration/Congress have recently requested EPA to investigate the issue of boutique fuels. I currently do not have the Exxon-Mobil map nor EPA's list of fuels handy. They're in my office somewhere. I believe that there are north and south winter oxy fuels, and summer/winter RFG that would be required by environmental regs. This would equate into 4 fuels with 3 octane ratings or 12 blends as Exxon/Mobil does their math. Again, I could be wrong as I don't have the info readily in front of me. Conventional gas would equate to three octane grades; however, automobile driveability dictates that the vapor pressure (RVP) of the fuel must change in different locals/seasons (i.e. otherwise you might get vapor lock, etc.). Exxon/Mobil equates each of these RVP grades (multiplied by 3 octane levels as a separate fuel mixture-although these are not required by Environmental regs and many pipelines do not distinguish to this level when transporting fuel(the more stringent level might be if there were only one grade) . The different blends reflect the refiners efforts to maximize blending/profitability by shifting some components which might make the mixture violate env. rules in a specific region to other regions which can burn more dirty fuel without air quality ramifications. Again, as I said earlier many refiners have made deals to supply a particular region (such as Atlanta) with a boutique fuel which generally has air quality benefits but does not confrom to RFG. This leads to many of the grades reported.

You are correct that MTBE is used to make gas burn cleaner, less CO. It also dilutes toxic aromatics by a dilution effect. It has been implicated in groundwater issues (more aesthetic than health related-turpentine smell to water).

CA requested an oxy waiver from EPA so that they could move forward with a ban on MTBE without having to deal with some of the ethanol issues (supply shortage, commingling effect of increase volatile compounds, etc.). The new EPA administration denied the waiver predominantly from legal grounds and said that CA had not justified that a waiver would contribute to air quality improvements (oxy/no oxy is basically a wash with new vehicle technology '96 and later where emission controls adjust for oxygen)

[hartman]

olgakurt,

Let me understand.

So basically we have these factors on gas types

1) winter / cold to stop RVP
2) octane grades
3) boutique fuels that are not needed but are used in some regions. ie clean ones for LA and dirty one for areas that don't needed.

Are you saying that of whole MTBE and ethanol issue is a moot point do to new emission controls in cars? If this is true how come no one just say they are not needed?

Is this a solution?

1) Take the top 5 "cleanest" boutique fuels and make them the standard ones? this would improve the total quality of gas in our country by removing the dirty grades while at the same time increasing refinery capacity due to simplification? This would lower cost and increase supply


Just seems to me that this issue with a little common scene could easily be fixed.

Hartman

[hesaias]

Dan
I didnt find his actions bad enough to make me leave. Did he stink as a prez? As far as I saw, in his execution of the office, he did OK. In his representation of our Country to other countries, he stunk.
I think that our President should act like a Head of state, not a panty chaser. (Clinton was not even in JFKs class as far as panty chasing, he just didnt keep it quiet.) The president should be able to be respected, which Mr Clinton was not.
Is GWB respectable? I havent seen a reason to distrust him, yet.
The "move to a diffrent country" remark was a knee jerk, sorry I said it.

On the same note, when did the Office of President loose its respectability? Was it Nixon? Im not old enough to have seen, and didnt pay enough attention in school to know.

[olgakurt]

I hate to keep tacking onto this thread.

Hartman,
You got it. Basically the problem is the CAA amendments mix recipe (oxy requirement) with performance standards (RFG). There is great lobbying on all points behind this issue. The corn growers want the mtbe ban and oxy requirement. The oxygenated fuels associations want the oxy requirement but not the mtbe ban. CA and NH want an oxy waiver and an mtbe ban. I believe refiners want the status quo to squeeze supply and drive up profits.

With the performance standards of RFG and toxics rule, the oxy requirement is kind of moot for RFG since refiners must still produce gas which meets the two standards and car driveability properties.

Non-oxygenated RFG has been proposed as yet another fuel blend.

One of the issues the oxy proponents don't want to let go of is the dilution effect on aromatics of adding ethanol or mtbe. A benzene/toxic standard does the same thing though. There is also some push to keep ethanol because/through it is a renewable fuel(s initiative) and hence helps deal with the CO2 issue. The problem with ethanol is the huge commingling (vapor pressure) effect whereby if you mix gas in your car (i.e. 9 gallons RFG-MTBE and 1 gallon RFG-ethanol) the vaor pressure of the total mixture goes way up and you get more VOC emissions/ozone.

I think the next overhaul of national fuels policy will be about 4 regional blends with their three octane grades, but this takes Congress to work with the administration and EPA on clean air act amendments and a possible renewable fuels initiative. MTBE will likely be phased out and the merchant plants converted to alkylation or ethanol plants due to the water issues.

The problem is that there is not enough research to support that ethanol is a benign fuel additive at this point (from a toxic air emissions-acetaldehyde and underground plume migration-preferential biodegradation standpoint).

[hartman]

olgakurt,

I did some reading and here are some more questions

1) Conventional gas does not include any amendments mix recipe (oxy)
2) RFG needs oxy either MTBE or ethanol to make up for the changes in content from convertional gas?

If RFG does not need oxy enhancment why don't just lose all the oxy crap and just use RFG everywhere and lose coventional gas all together.

3) am I correct to assume only 9 cities use RFG while the rest of the country uses conventional? Seems to me that if we let those city use RFG without oxy and made the country use it also we would have a net gain. Then we could remove the issue offMBTE and other all together.

Hartman

[Wolverine]

Hes, There are two things that keep me from joining the friendly neighbors to the North. One is the financial loss of everything I've been working for through medical school, especially when you consider that it would mean not finishing, so having huge debt and no degree. So, in my case, it's not, as you say, so simple (oops, I see that you already apologized for your statement, so ignore this).

As for the concerns about Bush, I heard all of these quite a bit before he was elected, and from what I saw, I had to agree; and that's why I was hoping he wouldn't win (actually, after the primaries I was hoping no one would win, and we just wouldn't have a President for 4 years).

From what I've read in the international press, many around the world respect Dubya a lot less than they did Clinton. Why? Because they don't care about Clinton's personal life. They thought it was funny how big an issue we were making of it, but nobody else cared.

As for returning my tax rebate: I have yet to see a dime. I know they haven't been sent out yet, but I think a lot of people are going to find themselves bitterly disappointed when this is all said and done.

Hartman, to some people there's more to life than money. Finances are one thing that I consider when I decide who I like politically for that year, but it's still only one thing; there are many other issues on which I feel I've already "seen the light."

I don't buy the dyslexia explanation as evidence that he's intelligent (I've heard this argument before). The reason is that I've known plenty of morons who also happen to have dyslexia. And before the PC police come banging down my door, I should say that this is coming from a dyslexic (though my IQ I will keep to myself, as I've been here long enough that I'm sure most of you have already formed your opinions on whether or not I'm intelligent). It doesn't explain errors in his thinking.

As for taking his misspeaking over the last 8 years, I wouldn't. The last eight years have been pretty good to me, to my family, and to my wife's family. The same goes for most of my friends. I was OK with the idea of continuing that.

hes, I'm not sure when the office lost respectability, as I am also too young to have known the Nixon administration, but I can say that I have yet to respect it (the elder Bush has come the closest).

Dave

[O'Man]

Seems to me that ethanol was Bob Dole's gift to ADM for many years of support. MTBE has been a fiasco, I am not sure who gets the credit for that one, but there are lots of wells that have been ruined by it, and I doubt that the money trail is real tough to follow. Here in NJ we have a political-creature named Bob Shinn who, in spite of ample information keeps sticking us with MTBE as well as many fool-hardy, wasteful, costly and dangerous policies for reasons that only he knows. Worse yet, this political-being was our new EPA heads buddy, and Christie Whitman(aka Ms. Borrow and Spend) is grossly under-qualified for that job, let alone any job that has any impact on people, fiscal responsibility, or the environment.

I do not think Bush is an idiot, quite the contrary. He is, however, a politician. I like some of his positions, but not all.

[Kat]

hesaias, while I don't believe that Bush is a complete idiot, I don't believe he's the brightest bulb out there either. His family has a lot of influence and wealth, and this has undoubtably (IMHO) helped him to get where he is today. Otherwise it's doubtful that, if he was on his own and a 'self-made man,' that he would've ever amounted to much at all.

Wolverine has made an excellent point. Just because you dislike one person (or issue, or whatever), doesn't mean you didn't dislike (or did like) something/someone else. It's like saying that just because you dislike grilled cheese sandwiches, you must dislike peanut butter and jelly sandwiches as well to be fair. And that doesn't make any sense.

As to the issue of dyslexia, well, a lot of people have problems speaking, and a lot of people have problems writing, but when it comes to an important office like the head of state, it's not a quality one would (or should) desire. At least not IMHO. It's a known fact that schizophrenics mix up and make up their words as well as dyslexics do. But I don't see anyone accusing Bush of being a schizophrenic (and neither am I), as it's not a socially acceptable disorder.

Claiming to be dyslexic is a socially acceptable excuse for misuse and inventing of words, when it isn't always dyslexia that is the reason for their blunders. There are just some people out there that just aren't that smart, for one reason or another. If you ask Bush what the capital of Nicaragua is, or about the particularities regarding the death penalty laws in Texas (where he was govenor), I very strongly doubt he would be able to come up with an answer that was correct, or even close. And you can't blame that kind of inadequacy on something like dyslexia. That's insulting to dyslexics, who but for a shortcircuit in their brain chemistry somewhere are otherwise usually quite intelligent people.

...and before anybody mentions Bush's "acheivements" in respect to his degrees, it's my personal observation that a piece of paper often doesn't mean that much at all in respect to intelligence (and especially personality). Most of the most intelligent, compassionate, understanding, and creative people I've met have had no formal education past high school, and most of the most blitheringly stupid, bigoted, self-centered and dull people I've ever had the misfortune to meet have an otherwise impressive collection of academic credentials.

JIMHO

[hartman]

O'man,

I won't comment on MTBE worth since I don't know really anything about it. But according to olgakurt who seems very well informed on the subject he states the following about it and wells

It has been implicated in groundwater issues (more aesthetic than health related-turpentine smell to water).

While I think anything that taints our water supply need to be looked at with a fine tooth comb so far it just looks to be aesthetic than anything else. I would be more concerned about HOW is gets there and what is can or is using the same path.

Hartman

[olgakurt]

The reason that there is no easy solution w/regards to RFG and boutique fules is all of the lobbying interests involved. DOE and USDA also have a heavy hand on any EPA policies in this area.

Here is a link to a map of RFG areas.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfgmap.jpg

"I would be more concerned about HOW is gets there and what is can or is using the same path."

That is one of the concerns with replacing MTBE with ethanol. When there is an underground storage tank leak (even with new tougher rules it was found (GAO?)that only 30% of tanks comply); ethanol would be preferentially degraded by bacteria over the toxic aromatics-benzene, toluene, xylene, etc. This preferential degradation would allow the toxics to be transported farther and possibly impact more wells. There are also other air quality issues with ethanol due to its hi vapor pressure and combustion emissions of acetaldehyde which is a carcinogen recently upgraded by EPA

The issue with MTBE has been its high water solubility/low sorption coefficient so it is transported at the outer edges of a plume and thus may impact more wells than the 'toxic' fraction.

The problem is we don't know the ratio of wells that would be impacted by toxics under ethanol blended RFG to that with MTBE blended RFG.

MTBE is a problem because at relatively low levels , the smell/taste deems some water supplies useless without remediation. However,as outlined above the use of ethanol (under an MTBE ban) might not be the savior either.

[O'Man]

Here's another view on MTBE. http://www.oxybusters.com/

I can honestly say I am not in a position to call this issue one way or another. I will say, however, that over the years I believe I have developed a good sense for knowing when something is hiding in the woodpile. Groundwater remediation along with the special interest dollars and political patronage that are associated with it are scary.

Worse yet, this is an area full of opportunities for things like insurance fraud and easy opportunities for dishonest people to take advantage of the public or small businesses. Even worse, it further empowers our unelected officials to make policy decisions.

[olgakurt]

O'man,

I am not saying that MTBE is not a problem. Current analysis shows some 20,000 supply wells are likely to be contaminated with MTBE. I worked on part of the proposed ban. But I am saying that the likely replacement if MTBE is banned (ethanol) may not be any better and very likely could be worse. The oxy buster site references EPA, one would be better served viewing their site where the actual science is referenced under the Office of Air or IRIS toxics web site. Also there is a 1999 report, "Achieving Clean Air and Clean Water-the report of the blue ribbon panel on oxygenates in gasoline" which goes into the details. MTBE does have a significant effect on clean air emissions; albeit for older car technology. IMO, with new car emission technology ('96 and later) and car turnover the use of oxygenates may be outdated PROVIDED that rules can be put in place to preserve the toxics reductions achieved through dilution of sulfur and aromatics. I hate to say that BOTH Democrats and Republicans blocked the CA waiver on this issue (tabled by Daschel under Clinton and now denied under Bush), the administration is now dealing with New Hampshire's request to opt out of the RFG program under MTBE/Ethanol concerns. The refinery industry believes that they can produce non-oxygenated gas which will meet the current oxy-RFG standards. The concern is that in the refinery process that the 'dirty' (i.e. volatile and aromatics) will be dumped into rural areas not required to burn RFG.

[O'Man]

Olgakurt:

Thanks for the info. It bothers me that this issue of Clean Air and Clean Water are political footballs. I have several family members who are or have been involved with meaningful environmental issues and collecting facts. Sadly, it seems to me that the common thread that prevents rapid progress always seems to be the politicans and their presonal interests.

[PerryinCA]

am I the only one who wonders if there is any connection between the fact that the Archer-Daniels-Midland Corporation (nations primary producer of ethanol) has "donated" (payed off) the Bush administration over $500,000 for his campaign and inagural party.

Here's some info about the company:
Advocates of reduced government spending are constantly amazed at what the Archer Daniels Midland Company gets away with in government subsidies. They say the latest outrage by the agricultural processing giant is pulling off a continuation of the 54 cent-per-gallon tax exemption for ethanol in the highway bill.

This subsidy reportedly accounts for the bulk of the more than $10 billion ADM has received from the federal government since 1980.

At least 43 percent of ADM's profits come from products subsidized by American taxpayers.

The firm benefits from the federal sugar program, trade subsidies and "Food for Peace" shipments.

Analyst James Bovard estimates that every dollar in profits earned by ADM costs taxpayers $30.
ADM's former chairman, Dwayne Andreas, was once indicted -- and later acquitted -- on charges of making an illegal $100,000 contribution to the 1968 Humphrey presidential campaign, funneling $100,000 in cash to the 1972 Nixon re-election campaign, and was fined for exceeding contribution limits in 1993.

A federal price-fixing investigation forced ADM to pay a $100 million fine -- and cost the company another $100 million to settle private lawsuits.

Critics point to the company's practices as a prime example of how businesses -- and the federal government -- shouldn't operate.

____________

seems Clinton was no stranger to kickbacks from the company either:
Long before the current price-fixing scandal rocked the halls of Archer Daniels Midland, the self-styled "supermarket to the world," was a super rip-off for the public. And its co-conspirators in this scandal are the likes of President Bill Clinton and presidential wannabe Kansas Republican Senator Robert Dole.
The tool used to siphon hundreds of millions of dollars yearly from the taxpayer to ADM is ethanol, alcohol distilled from corn. When mixed with gasoline, ethanol is called gasohol. About 55% of the ethanol produced in this country is manufactured by ADM, based in Decatur, Ill. With sales of about $11 billion a year, ADM is the largest grain-processing company in the world.

But gasohol has problems at the pump. First, it hurts mileage. Second, it's considerably more expensive than gasoline. Nobody is going to buy a fuel that both costs more and hurts mileage unless either A) the fuel is subsidized so that it doesn't cost more, or B) they are forced to. In this case, ADM has arranged through its friends in high places to make it C) both of the above.

In addition to myriad state tax breaks, gasoline blended with ethanol is eligible for a federal tax credit of 5.4 cents a gallon, totalling an estimated $770 million a year. Over half that goes straight into ADM CEO Dwayne Andreas's coffers.

Introducing that law was Dole, ADM's point man for its assault on the taxpayers. Dole has introduced over two dozen bills to help the ethanol industry and lobbied fiercely for it outside of Senate chambers as well.

ADM needs people like Dole because ethanol is not only too expensive, it's worthless.

Ethanol is touted as cleaner than gasoline. Indeed, it can reduce emissions of carbon monoxide, a fairly minor pollutant. While harmful in enclosed areas, carbon monoxide never causes serious health problems even at the very highest levels found in outdoor air.

Moreover, ethanol only reduces carbon monoxide emissions from cars built before oxygen sensors were made mandatory in 1983 or whose oxygen sensors are broken. Repeated studies at the University of Denver using a remote testing device invented there have found that out of 250-300 late model vehicles tested, at most one will put out significant carbon monoxide emissions.

Ethanol is also said to reduce ground-level ozone pollution, but a study by Sierra Research of Sacramento, California found that it would actually slightly INCREASE ozone production and increase smog. Indeed, in 1992 the EPA declared it could not be certified as a pollution-fighting fuel for use in the nation's smoggiest cities. Immediately, as the Wall Street Journal put it, Dole "lobbied the administration from President Bush on down." Dole won, ADM won, and air breathers lost as the EPA relented and certified ethanol. Ethanol is also presented as a way to prop up corn prices by increasing corn demand. It does do that, but a by-product of its production is a corn mash sold as feed. That reduces the demand for soybeans, a crop corn farmers grow as part of crop rotation.

In any case, it would be far cheaper to just funnel a subsidy directly to corn farmers rather than funnel it through ADM.

The real reason for ethanol's continued blessed existence isn't amber waves of grain but ample waves of cash. "Dwayne Andreas just owns me," former Democratic Party Chairman Robert Strauss once told the Washington Post. It turns out Andreas actually owns lots of other important people, too.

Since just 1991, Andreas and his family, ADM, and the ADM PAC have contributed over $1.18 million to the Republican Party and $1.05 million to the Democrats.

But nobody has benefited from this largesse more than Bob Dole. To date, ADM has contributed over $85,000 to Dole's various campaign bids, along with various other perks.

The most lucrative contribution to Dole was ADM's co-sponsorship of "Face-Off," a daily three-minute radio debate between Dole and Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Ted Kennedy from 1984 to November 1987, when Dole declared his presidential candidacy. A spokesman for the show told me the value of this free advertising for Dole was about $840,000.

Even while he denies being Andreas's chief lackey, it is a position Dole jealously guards. In August, speaking of the ethanol industry, Dole told an audience at the Illinois State Fair, "So far, we've been shut out by this administration."

Really?

Last year, shortly after Dwayne Andreas served as co-chairman of a Democratic Party fundraiser and personally donated $100,000, the Clinton Administration, via the EPA, tried to mandate that about 10% of all gasoline sold nationally contain ethanol. But in May a federal appeals court declared the administration "exceeded its authority" in so doing.

With that shot down, the ethanol lobby demanded a different gift, insisting that an ethanol-containing gasoline additive called ETBE receive the same tax break that pure ethanol gets. The Treasury Department quickly granted it. The ADM-supported American Corn Grower's Alliance then announced, "Agriculture owes the President many thanks for seeing him continue to fulfill his pledge to be an advocate for ethanol, ETBE, and oxygenated fuels."

(Note to the tobacco companies: If you want Clinton off your backs, just lace your cigarettes with a little ethanol.) The ADM executive who blew the whistle on its alleged price-fixing scheme says that the company's philosophy is: "The competitor is our friend; the consumer is our enemy." They could add to that another one: The politician is our lackey; the public is our sucker.


.....more following....

[PerryinCA]

GO McCain for pres!
DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) - Arizona Sen. John McCain proposed eliminating the federal ethanol subsidy on Wednesday, putting himself at odds with many voters in Iowa, where he faces the first test of his hopes for the Republican presidential nomination.

"If Iowa voters were in your mind, that wouldn't seem to be the place to be," said Dee Stewart, executive director of the Iowa Republican Party. "You wouldn't go to California and tell people to stay away from the beaches."

In Washington, McCain proposed a school voucher program to offer education opportunities for disadvantaged children. He suggested paying for it by eliminating $5.4 billion worth of subsidies for ethanol, sugar, gas and oil.

Under McCain's three-year test program, disadvantaged children would receive vouchers worth $2,000 a year. The money would be used to offset the costs of attending any school chosen by the student or parents.

"We shouldn't have special interest giveaways at the expense of our neeediest children," McCain said, adding that the ethanol program was "simply an outdated subsidy for corn producers."

Polls regularly show that education is a top issue with voters across the country, but the stand is likely to cause McCain headaches in politically sensitive Iowa.

Ethanol is alcohol distilled from corn and blended with gasoline. onal gasoline, a point disputed by critics. There is disagreement over whether ethanol is good for the environment, but there is no doubt it provides an economic boost for farmers. Ethanol production facilities provide a big new market for corn at a time when prices are depressed.

Since it's very popular with farmers and Iowa is a farm state, ethanol is a bipartisan crusade for most politicians. U.S. Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, once went so far as to drink some during a congressional hearing to demonstrate its safety.

Even Gov. George W. Bush, from oil-rich Texas, used his initial Iowa swing to pledge allegiance to ethanol.

Many ethanol critics argue that the overwhelming bulk of government subsidies goes to a few giant producers like Illinois-based Archer Daniels Midland Co. Backers insist there's a growing legion of smaller producers.

McCain's proposal couldn't come at a worse time for farmers. Commodity prices are at historic lows, and there are fears of a new wave of farm foreclosures. Congressional Democrats have proposed a $10 billion emergency farm bailout.

"Oh, sure, at a time of crisis in farming, take away the one thing that offers a possible solution. and that's ethanol," said Paula Chizek, of the Iowa Corn Growers Association.

"We support education, but not at the epxense of ethanol," she added.

Ethanol producers get tax breaks of $1.5 billion a year for producing the fuel.

-Perry

PS- I think its easy for most to see Bush is an idiot by the clueless look in his eyes when he tries to (mis)read the prepared speaches he gives. That and for all he's learned about drugs and alcohol...he wasn't quite able to pass that on to his idiotic daughters. Poor father, poor president, rich daddy, and a tool for the republicans. Even Osama has it out for him.... I won't comment on whether I think that is a good or bad thing