Nitrate control issue

[Robofish]

Hi everyone. I have been really concerned about my 100 gallon tank. I have never been able to keep my nitrates down. Something is obviously wrong, or many things. Well, where do I begin? I got the tank about a year ago, and have never stopped struggling with these nitrates. My tanks' inhabitants are 2 dragon wrasses, about 2" ea., a yellow tang, about 2.5", a koran angel about 3", a blue tang about 2.2", a 5" leaflip soapfish, and a 7-8" niger trigger. A total of seven. Also, a few hermits and starfish. Ive been told that that is not to many, and looking at the tank it is not over crowded. I have a minimum amt of "clutter" in the tank ( to optimize the swimming space for the fish), but what I do have is a large dead coral and a few live rocks, as well as some smaller rock rubble.
Im feeding the fish once a day. My grouper ( soapfish) and my trigger get one large silverside each, and then I carefully pour a prepared mixture of diced (very small pieces) scallops, mullet, squid, and shrimp inwhich everything indulges in. I use this same concoction for my reef fish tank. Also lettuce is given every couple of days.
As for the filtration, I have 2 protein skimmers, both of which claim to skim tank up to 150 gallons, and neither one has impressed me. In fact one removes hardly anything, reguardless of how much I have tried to improve it productivity. But I figure 2 cruddy skimmers may equal one good one (ha). Also I have been using an under ground filter ( under crushed coral), and I had'nt had any problems with it until about a month ago when I dissasembled a tank of mine and added all of the live sand from it into my one-hundred gal. tank. Since then the power heads have not been working properly. Last but not least, I have a hang on penguin filter with the bio wheels, its petty big.
I do a 20 gal. water change every 2 weeks, sometimes even more frequent. My nitrates are consistently off my nitrate chart that goes up to 120 ppm.
I would really appreciate any advice or help.
thanks, Mike

p.s. let me know if i left anything out

[votek]

You might be answering your own questions with this one.

But heres what I would do in your position (from what I've learned)

-Get a good skimmer. If your running 2 and neither are doing a good job, then you need to either fix the ones you have (if possible) or get a new one.

-Get a bigger power filter. IE: Fluval 404 or bigger.

-More Live rock...you can never have enough.

-Look into doing a SUMP

Also...other observations. Undergravel filters do not work so hot with DSB systems. IE - Your crossing the plenum idea with the German idea. One or the other will be a good one to follow. I would get your sand a lot deeper. On top of this, vacuum your gravel every time you do a water change. The quickest way to lower nitrates is water changes. I would do 20% every other day until you get to the level you need. If you do not see results at 20%, go to 25%. If you still have problems, do them every day until you start to see results. As for feeding, stock up on feather dusters, worms, snals, crabs and starfish to clean your scraps up and make the waste products smaller and more suseptable to the backteria.

When you have larger "chunks" of waste, you have a smaller surface area. What you want to do is have them broken down into sand so that they are broken down quicker by bacteria, via a larger surface area. Think of it like taking a cube of sugar and droping it into a glass, as opposed to an equal quantity of granulated sugar. The granulated will disolve much quicker.

-votek

[Dragon Moray Eels]

OK, let`s go over this slowly, you have a 100 gal tank and fishes i count that are in this is 7 as you pointed out, now are these two dragon wrasse a mated pair, and if so, you will be needed a much larger tank for they grow 12" each, and i know that they are very cute looking right now, but i hope that you know that their body will change, they`re not look like they do right now shortly around 4-4 1/2". But in short of all this, you do have a great number of fishes in your 100 gal tank, so by having this, you also over feed, sorry about this, but you need to know that as more fish is added into your main system, you also add even more food. Now i`ll not do myself as what you have here, having as many fish you do in a 100 gal tank, but in the long run the tank, you will have to remove some the fish. Let`s cover few the other fishes in your tank, the tang will grow no smaller then 6", the koran angel will grow 11" to 15", blue tang in the wild they grow to 14", leaflip soapfish will grow 1'+ and i hope you understand the dangers having him, they get very aggressive and are Poisonous when others attack them or when stressed or dies. Niger trigger could grow to 12" And the hermits and starfish will only become snacks in due time. Not of course to you right now it isnt over crowded, but they will all grow in due time, then what??
In any tank setup, with what ever amount of fishes it houses, we need to provide them with proper shelter (hiding places) and what your feeding, i would go very slowly with that :( under ground filter? You mean under gravel filter, right? now here you might get mix reviews, myself those under gravel filters are OK for any start of an aquarium, but for the long term health of the tank, they are just not worth the trouble for in time under the gravel bed will be huge amounts of gunk, and the power heads on this would need to be stronger as the time goes by and also reversible. But as for what skimmers you have and who their from, one thing i can say is that not all but a good number og equipments out there is over rated of it`s proper capabilities.
Now i hope your not a person that his/her feelings become so hurt from what im saying here, not from what i can follow you on, you have no sump. Two skimmers, need to know which brand and model numbers. And as for the hang on penguin filter with the bio wheel, it isnt good for any larger tank then i believe is a 70 gal tank they go up to, but myself i wouldn`t go with them. And the power heads you need to clean then inside their shaft, you might find they will work better.If you cant place a sump on this tank, then get the large eheim wet/dry canister, it be a lot better then what you have now. And with the fish you have in that tank with the life supports, i`ll do 20 gal water change weekly ;)
So Mike, you really need to make a decision here, i know it all looks good to you right now, but in due time, you will have only problems if you not look at these things mention here. And one last question for you for now, how long this tank been setup? I assume a year or less right now.

Buddy :fish1:

[jackson6745]

Mike, You should defenitely add a good skimmer like a Euroreef or an Aqua C and consider adding a refugium to your system. If you are serious about the health of your fish and do not want to continue doing massive water changes, you have to change your system. You need some sort of nitrate removal in your tank. A penguin or fluval or a crappy seaclone skimmer won't do it.
Do a search on REFUGIUM. You'll get tons of info.
This all costs money as you know. DIY methods prove to be very cost effective

BTW not sure if you use copper or not, with live rock you shouldn't

Good Luck,
Rich

[Robofish]

Thanks for the input everyone. Im not that that disappointed with the reviews I got because for the most part I was expecting it. I figured that some drastic changes are going to have to be made, but I wanted to get a few opinions on my situation.
I had no idea that the dragons got so large. I was under a different impression, also they arent a mated pair. About the penguin, I knew it was a mistake and Im still kicking myself. That will definetely have to go.
One of the first things Im gonna do is pull up that under gravel filter. I may add some more live sand, and Im definetly getting some more Fiji rock( man thats expensive rock)lol.
As for the sump/refugium, Ive looked into them before and I dont really under stand the the importance of one unless you want to put filtering mechanisms in them. ie. a skimmer . In fact my LFS talked me out of one. He said if my nitrates are a problem that the sump will probably just add more nitrates and it would not be solving my problem. If he is wrong please let me know. Im not to clear on the biological processes that would be occuring due to water flowing from one section of a sump to another section. How does this remove nitrates? I really am clueless.
I was actually thinking about a canister filter, but I wanted to get some feed back on how good they actually work, and which types are the best. As always your comments are welcomed and needed. Please let me know what you think.
thanks Mike

[jackson6745]

Originally posted by Robofish
Thanks for the input everyone. Im not that that disappointed with the reviews I got because for the most part I was expecting it. I figured that some drastic changes are going to have to be made, but I wanted to get a few opinions on my situation.
I had no idea that the dragons got so large. I was under a different impression, also they arent a mated pair. About the penguin, I knew it was a mistake and Im still kicking myself. That will definetely have to go.
One of the first things Im gonna do is pull up that under gravel filter. I may add some more live sand, and Im definetly getting some more Fiji rock( man thats expensive rock)lol.
As for the sump/refugium, Ive looked into them before and I dont really under stand the the importance of one unless you want to put filtering mechanisms in them. ie. a skimmer . In fact my LFS talked me out of one. He said if my nitrates are a problem that the sump will probably just add more nitrates and it would not be solving my problem. If he is wrong please let me know. Im not to clear on the biological processes that would be occuring due to water flowing from one section of a sump to another section. How does this remove nitrates? I really am clueless.
I was actually thinking about a canister filter, but I wanted to get some feed back on how good they actually work, and which types are the best. As always your comments are welcomed and needed. Please let me know what you think.
thanks Mike

The only use of a canister filter is to run some carbon or phosphate removal media....THATS IT!! Your biological filtration will be provided by live rock and sand.
I would stop listening to your fish store right now. You are going to waste money by taking their advice. Everything you need to know is here at your finger tips on this website. Be patient, read, and learn.
If you are going to have a sandbed I recommend 4" of SOUTHDOWN sand from home depot. It's $5 for a 50lb bag. Get rid of the UG filter.
A Refugium/Sump will not contribute to nitrates, only help you remove them. You can also hide your equipment such as a heater and skimmer in there.

I suggest you dismantle your tank and get a 4" sandbed, add a refugium to grow macros wich will remove nitrates, also leave enough room for a skimmer which you eventually will want. Add approx. 1lb of live rock per gal and try to upgrade your lighting to VHO's or T's if corals aren't your priority.

There are many ways to set up a succesful system, this is just one way that works for me and many others.

Rich

[Dragon Moray Eels]

Mike, im sorry that the store near you took advantage of what you didn`t understand in what you were in for, but what you need to know is, most the aquarium stores are in business for just one thing, making money off of those with little or no knowledge in what they were doing. Like for a sample, about 8 months ago a girl emailed me of her questions that she got answers from that fish place on line, she asked me in to what i thought about a 150 gal system with two fluval canisters. I told her it will be a failure waiting to happen and that if she listen to the all know how expert at that fish place, that it will look for a period of time that it is working, but in any long term life span of the tanks live stock, it will be a complete failure. I myself went into that fish place chat expert site and asked him about this, he said it would work, then i asked him of what if she had a wet/dry sump and he then said that, that would do so very much better. So i asked him then why didnt he tell the girl that and all he said was she hadn`t asked about that.
The point here is Mike, if a hobbyist not know in what their looking for then they can be sold just any crap they like to get rid of, the deal there is, that store is in for the money, and not your success. The problem in this is, in some stores, there are those who will be completely honest with you, the problem for beginners as yourself is to find them. Now mike, i need to get a grasp on this, i have a number of tanks, i have a 130 gal dragon moray eel system, just the pair of dragons in it and you have this 100 gal tank with all these fishes in it ( there are a number damsels in there with them). And your only in this situation because you didnt get the correct guidance that you needed to do better then what your doing.
Mike, you have a huge advantage over me then what i did when i first began this hobby, back in the days i began, we had no books or internet and back then many hobbyist simply gave up with the idea of having an ocean view in their homes. What you can begin doing for yourself is, when ever you have a question or situation that you not know about, always ask about here and hobbyist live in your area. And after some point in time you will become to know those that gives you as near to the correct info you needed to know ( i know i might had said this in a better way, but im tired, you try taking care twins (boy & girl) 14 months old :)
Now before you pull up that under gravel filter, i think it might be better that you take back the fishes, and ask them to hold the one or two you want to keep for just a few days for the water in you tank will become very cloudy and that filter pump you have would help in any way clearing it in the first day or so, so what you can do is get a number of damsels and also add more live rock while your at it. And if the store not help you in this, then simply take some looses in the returns, it be a lot better then the looses you were to have if you hadn`t came into Reef Central. And also in what the store told you, did they advise you on the filter you have now? If so, i surely would look for another aquarium store to deal with for that filter pump is junk for a 100 gal tank, i would even do that on a 100 gal freshwater. And besides, you need to understand, in ever fish you have in that tank, they produce waste themselves. An d as for nitrates being added because of a sump, now this is what the guy at the aquarium store told you, that is seriously stupid of him to tell you, one thing, how many years experience does this guy have? And just because a person works in an aquarium store, it not means they know in all their talking about.
Like i live in NC, i have this nice aquarium store i got most my stuff from, called Fish World. About 18 months ago, this guy setup a 150 reef tank, he had some very nice lighting on it but he didnt have anything for his life supports but a large canister, the thing was a guy at pet smart sold him the idea that he can do this very cheap and have a great system. Now this is were what im about to say that just because a hobbyist test his waters weekly and all is looking fine, it not means on has great water quality for there are thing that can go so very wrong and you have nothing to test for them, like waste build-ups for a sample. Now this guy with this tank kept buying a butterfly fish a few times and it died shortly after and no one could understand why, his water showed everything looks good, but not once did i hear from the guys at the store then ask the guy what type setup he has, so when all around him went about else where, i started to ask him questions and the moment he said he has a 404 fluval, the ground move out from under me. But as for the tanks i have, i have sumps on all my tanks. My 130 dragon eel system has a nitrate of 12 ppm, my 180 reef tank is under 5 ppm. Now i not know what if this pump you have now adds or not to nitrates, but i don`t think on such a larger tank that it would help in removing them. The other matter within this is you need to do your correct maintenance on your tank, and not just on a monthly time table.
And Rich is correct on the canister type for you, i would also add either some live rock very small pieces or some bio media, either one will last a long time. And when ever you do a change of water you never change your power filters, one week you do one thing and the next you do another, you not want to upset the bio filtration balance of the tank. And as Rich pointed out to you, research, read, read and read more. always recheck things you not understand with others. And Mike, since this tank is to remain a F/O tank, you really not need live sand all you need is the aragonite sand, it is good enough for what you want and is cheaper.

Buddy

[votek]

Side note.

1lb of LR per gallon if you want a reef.
1.5lb of LR per gallon if you want fish/reef.

[Robofish]

Wow, thanks for all of the great advice Buddy and Rich. I am going to begin surgery on the tank this weekend and I will keep you posted on as to what is going on. I am sure I will run into a few problems but that is what this site is for. :D
Thanks Mike