Flame Angel dying...please help

[krazykarel]

Hello im new to this board and unfortunately my first post is not a good one...can you guys please give me some quick suggestions. I introduced a Flame Angel a week ago and everything was fine until this morning. He was doing upside down circles (i know this isn't a good sign). I tested the water and the ammonia was at .25 is this what is doing him or did him in?? I have read that the ammonia would rise a little when introducing a new fish (he's the second fish...the other is a maroon clown). Is there anything i can do at this point?

Tank specs: 55g w/30lbs live rock, 60lbs of sand, and a wet dry system with a Berlin Skimmer. Tank has been running for 3 months.

[hcs3]

hi karel, and welcome to RC

your right, any amount of ammonia is not a good thing in SW aquariums. in particular, marine angels will not tolerate it. was this present prior to adding the fish?

before we can help, we'll need more details on the tank. what salinity is the tank kept at? temperature? any nitrite or nitrate present? how long was the maroon clown in the tank before the addition of the flame angel? was the tank completely cycled before the addition of the clown?

in general, flame angels are rather delicate fish. they should be added only to well established tanks. IMO your tank is rather new and is most likely not ready for the addition of a flame angel yet. other dwarf angels, such as coral beauty's, are hardier.

HTH

henry

[Kat]

Ammonia and Nitrite are the hobbyist's worst nightmare and action should be taken ASAP to remove any source of these highly toxic pollutants. You may wish to do a small water change to lessen the concentration of pollutants in your tank. Water changes should at the very least be done monthly.

That said, I personally wouldn't recommend introducing any delicate species, such as Angels (or Tangs, Rabbitfishes, Butterflyfishes) into a tank that is less than six months old. They just don't seem to do well.

When you're first stocking your tank, leave a long time between new introductions (at least a couple of weeks). This gives your tanks' natural filtration system (microfauna & flora) time to accomodate and absorb the effects of a higher livestock load.

HTH

[krazykarel]

Hcs3 thank you for the quick reply...here are my tank's readings:
This was prior to the addition of the Angel Salinity:1.024 Nitrite=0 Nitrate=5ppm Temp 78-79% After the introduction the only thing that changed was the Ammonia level which is at .25 right now.

The tank was completely cycled before i introduced the clown and he was in there 10 days before i introduced the clown

Kat: Thank you for your advice and information...i definetely took a huge risk that is not paying off right now :(

[krazykarel]

I found another problem...my hydrometer was giving me an incorrect reading...the salinity was at 1.020 ive since raised the salinity to 1.024. The angel is still alive but is not swimming "naturally"...he looks like he's in pain.

Any other suggestions?

[LeoR]

Karel,

The salinity difference was not big enough to make the angel sick.
It was probably ammonia that got him.

Just in case there was some other toxin, I would add some activated carbon to filter the water.

The best you can do is to keep changing the water until ammonia and nitrites are 0.
Keep testing for ammonia and, if you notice any, add some Amquel until the tank stabilizes.

When you get a chance, take a closer look at angel's fins for signs of opportunitic diseases (redness at the base, fraying of the edges, thread-like fungus, etc).

Keep us posted.

Leo

[OrionN]

Originally posted by krazykarel
I found another problem...my hydrometer was giving me an incorrect reading...the salinity was at 1.020 ive since raised the salinity to 1.024. The angel is still alive but is not swimming "naturally"...he looks like he's in pain.

Any other suggestions?

I would be very careful in adjusting the salinity, especially increasing it. How do you measure salinity now if not using your hydrometer? I asked because various methods are not too reliable. SP of 1.020 should not cause your fish problem. Quick increase to 1.024 can, or if you increase your salinity due to wrong reading can certainly cause more problem (increase it to over 1,026)
You need to determine where the Ammonia is comming from and take steps to correct this. You can also use various chemical treatment to remove Ammonia.
Good luck.

[krazykarel]

Well the angel is still alive and behaving more naturally...he's swimming in and out of the rock work almost like he used to before.

The salinity is now at 1.024...what occurred before was that there were some air bubbles trapped in the hydrometer and i wasn't knocking them out. I was getting all sorts of wacked out readings, but unfortunately didn't realize this until yesterday (my lfs guy showed me how to "untrap" the air bubles).

I added some Amquel to reduce the ammonia...i still have a feeling the little guy is not going to make it. What signs should i be looking for one way or the other?

[LeoR]

Hi Karel,

Ammonia is very bad and you want it at zero as soon as possible.

Symptoms of ammonia poisoning appear at 0.3 mg/l (ppm) ["Handbook of fish diseases", D. Untergasser].
But sensitive fish, like Flame angels, can get sick from a much lower dose.

"Seachem" makes "Ammonia alert", an inexpensive ($5) sticker-like sensor, which can be kept in tank all the time to watch for ammonia spikes.

If you keep the water clean the angel might make it.
Watch for signs of diseases which often follow bad situations like this one.

You'll know the angel is on the way to recovery when s/he starts eating.
Do your best and keep fingers crossed.

Leo

[OrionN]

I am glad that he is doing better. See if you can find out how your ammonia goes up. It is not because you add a fish to your tank.

[krazykarel]

Thanks for your help guys...the angel is still alive and he ate a couple of brine shrimp today.

I think that the ammonia was do to increased feeding...i don't have any inverts (eg. crabs, shrimps, etc) in my tank so they didn't die off....i cycled with the live rock so it shouldn't have any die off (i don't think!). So im thinking it was the feeding...i only have to species, the angel and a maroon gold stripe clown. They are both under 2"...so perhaps i over fed.

Ive added Amquel to reduce the ammonia....should i perform a small water change now as well or could this further stress the fish? And i will invest in an ammonia alert monitor :)

Thanks again for your time!

[krazykarel]

Leo: i forgot to ask you about the activated carbon...please have patience with me im fairly new to sw...i have activated carbon but where should i put it?! Do i put it in a sleeve and put it in b/t the overflow box drain and my wet/dry? Where would be the best place to add (i don't have a mechanical filter such as a penguin bio wheel)?

[LeoR]

Karel,

Glad to hear that the Flame is eating.

Activated carbon can go anywhere where there is a good flow of water.

Pour a 1/2 cup to 1 cup of carbon in some kind of a mesh (a nylon stocking is perfect) and rinse it well under running water, turning sides over until water runs clear.

You can place the carbon bag in an overflow, but if you have a powerhead pump in the tank, placing the bag near the pump outlet would be even better (faster flow = faster filtering).

After 1 day, remove the bag and rinse it. If it's dirty, replace it with fresh carbon.
Then check the carbon every 2 days until things stabilize.
Once your biological filter starts working properly (ammonia and nitrites stay at 0), you can decide whether to keep using the carbon or not.

Water changes would help, too; the more the better.
Just mix the water to salinity near 1.026, pH near 8.2, and areate it until it warms up to about 80 F.

Welcome to the world of babysitting fish :)
This will get easier in time.

Leo

[krazykarel]

Thanks Leo...i did as you said, put some activated carbon in a mesh bag near the return pump. This is some work but to be honest it is fun...well not the fish dying part, but the actual hobby aspect of all of this.

I don't know where the Flame is this morning....it usually comes out when i flash light into one of the live rocks, but i think it might have died over night. Ill be vigillant today to see if he comes out...but im not too optimistic.

One last question...ive had my water tested at a few lfs....and they say my ammonia is at .25 and one of the lfs said my ammonia was at 1.0!!! Now im still showing .25 here...what is the most accurate test out there?

[LeoR]

Karel,

I haven't used Ammonia test kits in years (my tanks are stable and there is no need), so I am not sure which kit is most accurate today.

My favorite is "SeaChem Marine Basic" test kit, which distinguished between different forms of ammonia and is convenient and inexpensive (about $25).

The more important thing is that there should be NO ammonia in your tank.
I would check the live rock for something that probably died and caused the ammonia spike.

Take rocks out, piece by piece, and smell them.
If you find one that smells, put it into a bucket of tank water and use a toothbrush and toothpick to remove slimy looking stuff from it.
Rinse it well in another bucket of tank water and once it no longer smells bad, put it back.

For now, keep adding Amquel until ammonia stays at 0.
Note that some test kits show ammonia even when it has been converted/detoxified by Amquel (the Seachem test does not get fooled).

Leo

[krazykarel]

Thanks Leo ill look into the seachem. Unfortunately just as i expected my flame finally died. He didn't show up yesterday all day....today i went looking for him and found him under one of the rocks, paritally eaten....eyes, body, head. Something feasted on him, im pretty sure it wasn't the maroon clown because he never goes to that side of the tank.

Im sure the flame decomposing caused some added ammonia...how many days do you think i should wait to check to see if ammonia is completely at zero? Considering i only have the clown in there...honestly im not looking foward to taking out the live rock, but i will if i have to.

[LeoR]

Karel,

Sorry about the angel.
Things happen (and it's happened to all of us).

Nature has taken its inevitable course; so that others may live bodies of the departed are "recycled" by worms. And, though in a different way, the life goes on.

The ammonia should be gone by now, but I would check for ammonia again so the clown does not get sick too.

It could take several weeks for the bio-filter to fully develop to handle all the nutrients and toxins, so I'd wait before adding another fish.

In the meantime, see if the filtration can be improved in some way.

If you have bio-balls in the wet/dry, most people recommend taking them out (slowly).

The skimmer should be producing some foam after feeding. A piece of mussel is good for testing this (and feeding your clown). If the skimmer does not work well, see if a different pump (or skimmer) would produce better results.

It sounds like your sand bed is developed, but consider boosting it. 1 pound of live sand from a well established tank or reputable store should be enough.

Feel free to ask more questions.

Leo

[krazykarel]

I will definetely take that advice and not add another fish until things are established properly.

Ive since found another problem which could have been the indirect cause of the angel's death. My water temp has been steadily increasing... the water has been nearly 90 degrees.

I think the possible ammonia could be coming from the live rock that has been affected by the increase in temperature. The room is the warmest in the house (where the tank has to be)...i had forgotten how warm it gets in there.

This is what i have done to combat the heat thus far...ive opened the canopy and open the top of the tank to let it "breathe" more...i also took a water bottle and put some R/O water in the freezer over night and stuck it in the pump this morning (im not sure how well this will work but ill have to wait and see. Im also thinking of puting in an air line which could probably cool the tank down some more. Any other ideas?

Im looking into the "ice probe" made by CoolWorks ($100) made for tanks 50 gallons or less which would be all that i could afford at this time, but im not sure if it would be worth it.

[krazykarel]

I forgot to mention that the skimmer is producing foam...when i begin to remove the bio balls from the sump should i place live rock in its place (is this necessary?) or something else sump? And i will look into seeding my sand bed...i want the temperature deal to be resolved before i continue to add things into the tank.

Again thanks for all your help :D

[LeoR]

Karel,

I had suspected many things (filtration, new tank...), but your mention of high temperature explains everything.

The high temperature must have caused a massive die-off in the rocks/sand and caused the ammonia spike.
The ammonia, coupled with high temperature and low oxygen in water then made the angel sick.

So, your filtration is probably OK, but now you'll have to wait for the tank to finish cycling again.

As you remove bio-balls, it is not necessary but would help to add a piece or two of live rock to boost the bio-filter after this calamity.

As for cooling, the simplest and cheapest solution is to keep windows and doors open.
This would also help reduce carbon-dioxide in water (and thus stabilize the pH).

Next in line would be fans.
If you have lights of more than 80W on the tank, mini fans installed in canopy would help blow away that heat.
You can also use one of those inexpensive "monster" fans to blow across the tank surface.

Air-line would not cool the tank much, but it would help increase oxygen in water (which goes down as temperature goes up).


Leo

[krazykarel]

Leo,

Thank you for all the advice you have given me...i will wait till the tank cycles. My lights are not high wattage (i have it set up as a fowlr) so i don't need the strength of the lights. The water is now down to 86 degrees and hopefully dropping. This has served as a good experience (i wish i would have learned it differently). I bought Marine Fish by Nick Dakin to bulwark my knowledge so hopefully ill be better equipped in dealing with future problems.

Thanks again :)

[LeoR]

Karel,

It was my pleasure to help.
I wish there was much more info readily available to people starting with marine fish.

I am busy working on a new site for puffers, so I won't be checking this place for a while.
If you need anything, visit "diodon.org" (under construction, but you can e-mail from there).

Good luck to you and your fish.

Leo