Copper.

[eco-tropic]

It would seem that a few of the more enlightened folk on the board are finally interested in debating something interesting. It would be interesting to hear cases for and against copper. Why/when it should or should not be used, and who should or should not use it? I’d like to refer you all to a few articles:

http://ace.ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/coppersu.htm

See copper:

http://www.moles.org/ProjectUnderground/drillbits/970807/97080706.html

See Potential Concerns and Relevant Evidence:

http://www.social.mtu.edu/EP/Torchlake/IBU/09def.html

This link, a “.PDF� makes specific mention of coppers effect on reproduction. It mentions (Beisinger and Christensen, 1972; Barron and Adelman, 1984; Rengel, 1990). I’ll try to get my hands on the most recent paper from Rengel.

http://caribjsci.org/june99/p.64-69.pdf

Any input welcome.

[ClownFishTycoon]

Intresting ... I'd like to add some thing to the conversation. I don't copper due to the risks of sterility ( Jeff thanks for posting the papers on copper I've never seen these ones before. ) and the fact that copper is much to slow in curing anything!!! I believe using formalin/malachite green is more effective.

[eco-tropic]

I have a lead on the Rengel paper form a friend at UC Davis. I should have a copy next week. I'll attempt to scan it and post it if possible.

[Unfair Advantage]

I don't copper due to the risks of sterility

Can you elaborate on this? Studies/evidence/etc?

Eco- I would like to see more information on Copper's effects on saltwater animals if you've found any. All the articles/studies listed focus on FW.

[eco-tropic]

UA,

Nothing yet. I put these out as an inference to where the hypothesis in Wilkerson’s book may have come from. I have it from a good source in academia that Rengel did additional experiments with marine species and published a paper in 1990. Not sure if it is part of the paper mentioned in the article or if it was separate research. In any event you would think that someone would have at least checked this out. There is documentation on the effects of cyanide and other substances impacts on Salmon, etc. but nothing on copper. I think the issue is funding. Most research dollars for these types of studies go to fisheries and food fish research, for obvious reasons. While these articles are certainly not the smoking gun, you must admit that someone could draw an inference or two from the information presented. I’m starting to think you are the only person interested in this topic?

Jeff

[Unfair Advantage]

...or could be there's such a lack of information (other than anecdotal) that there's not much to talk about :hmm1:

Also, are we talking strictly copper sulfate/chelated or are we also including products like Cupramine? Do people feel the same way about it as other copper products? Any research or comments on the differences/evidence to suggest the hype (sales pitch) on the bottle is true?

[eco-tropic]

Perhaps. Unless you’d care to try to prove copper doesn’t cause sterility?

BTW.

What Unfair Advantage do you purport to have?

[Unfair Advantage]

I don't treat with Copper sulfate/chelated. I use Cupramine.

I will certainly report the status of my young clowns should they spawn (or not), as that is my sole source of possibile data (I don't think my wife will go for another tank for "research" :LOL: )

[oama]

One the other hand...What evidence is there that proves that copper at regular recommended dosages causes sterility?

BTW I like the thread and am following it closely. I have read eco's links. Great info on clearence w/in 14 days.

I find it very interesting that Cu is not a Teratological substance. http://ace.ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/coppersu.htm

I would have thought that at higher levels, it would be.

[eco-tropic]

If you are looking for conjecture you’ve come to the right place. Like you, I don’t think there is anything that supports the sterility theory in the few marine fish that have been spawned. Keep in mind you are dealing with breeders with several thousand dollars of personal cash invested in broodstock. Pardon the paranoia, but some of these folks are keeping rare or difficult to obtain specimens and would never subject their fish to copper treatment. I think folks forget that the common stock should be treated a bit differently.

Not sure about cupramine. Seachem’s website states:

Cupramineâ„¢ effectively eradicates ectoparasite of both freshwater and marine fish. It has all the advantages of copper sulfate and chelated copper, but not the disadvantages. Like copper sulfate, it is fully ionic and effective at low concentrations. The cupric (Cu+2) charge is fully active. Like chelates, it is safe for fish and it is not precipitated in the filter bed. Unlike both, there is more than a 4x concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose and the toxic dose. Unlike copper salts, it is stable in the aquarium, and, unlike chelates, it is easily removed by chemical filtration. Unlike other copper products, it is both highly effective and safe in freshwater as well as marine water. It does not damage the filter bed. Cupramineâ„¢ contains 10,000 mg/L of copper and 100 mL treats over 500 gallons. Do not use in conjuction with ParaGuardâ„¢. Test for copper with our MultTest: Copperâ„¢ kit.

I was always under the impression that (Cu+2) was just plain old copper sulfate. They do not elaborate on any other elements or compounds present in their product. I'm sure your clowns will spawn. Best of luck.

[ClownFishTycoon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Unfair Advantage
[B]Can you elaborate on this? Studies/evidence/etc?

Give me a day or 2 to come up with where
I read it. I'd be game to dose some fish with copper disect them and look for damage in reproductive or any organs. I have the equipment or they could be sent out to a lab...

[eco-tropic]

swaalop,

I think you should go for it. Put the speculation to rest.


oama,

One could take the argument in either direction. The argument would be certainly swayed toward it not causing sterility, but we truly do not know that it does not under certain circumstances.

[Unfair Advantage]

I was always under the impression that (Cu+2) was just plain old copper sulfate. They do not elaborate on any other elements or compounds present in their product.

Cu++ is actually not sulfate. It's ionic (bound to 2 other amines).
There's a thread in the reef chem forum where Greg Morin, CEO of Seachem, answers some questions.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1049660

Wether or not Cupramine has any other ill effects is not disclosed.

[Unfair Advantage]

http://masna.org/ms/97WINTER.pdf

Read the C-Quest article, near the end is this quote by Joyce Wilkerson:

Copper is a treatment of last resort and is used only on an isolated tank basis since copper treatment causes broodstock to quit spawning.

I sent an email off to C-Quest asking what kind of copper treatment was being used and for more information on this.

[eco-tropic]

UA,

Interesting. I don't know that Addison or his crew would answer any of your questions. Can't even get oama to comment on copper use at ORA. So (Cu+2) is just the principle element of copper with two electrons in the which valence band? I'm trying to remember my chemistry.

[ATJ]

While copper is effective against a number of parasites, I avoid using it if there are alternatives available. The problems I have with copper are as follows:

* copper can be particularly unstable, although it tends to be more stable in seawater than in freshwater. Various copper complexes (such as citrate and chelates) make it more stable, but it can also reduce its efficacy.

* copper is absorbed by a number of compounds, including calcium carbonate, dolomite and even silicate.

* copper suppresses the immune system of the fish being treated which can make the fish more susceptible to what every they are being treated, especially if appropriate concentration is not maintained.

* copper at 0.3 mg/L inhibits ammonia nitrite oxidation by nitrifying bacteria

* copper is very toxic to fish and so when using copper you must be very careful to maintain correct concentration. Too high and you risk killing the fish, too low and you risk not killing the pathogen

Cardeilhac and Whitaker (1988) have written a very good review of the literature on the uses and precautions of copper. They mention nothing about the effect of copper on reproduction.

Cardeilhac P.T. and Whitaker B.R. 1988. Tropical fish medicine. Copper treatments. Uses and precautions. <i>Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract</i>.<b>18</b>:435-448.