Keeping fish in pairs and groups

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi,

I would like to start this thread to share knowledge in order to improve natural fish keeping. I have several tanks and my main tank is about 320 g.

The following fish I keep in pairs and could get them to mate:

Liopoproma rubre - Swiss guard bass
Liopoproma swalesi - ?
Synchiropus splendidus - mandarin
Synchiropus stellatus - red scooter blenny
Oxycirrhites typus - long nose hawk fish
Zebrasoma flavescens - yellow tang
Centropyge argi - coral beauty

These ones I have two or more of, but cant ensure that they are male / female because I have not seen mating or eggs yet.

Esenuis bicolor - bicolor blenny
Acreichthys tomentosus
Ctenochaetus hawaiiensis
Gramma loreto - royal gramma
Centroypge loriculus - flame angel
Gobisoma randalli

In group I keep:

Pseudocheilinus hexataenia (1,2) - six line wrasse (mating regular)
Pseudanthias parvirostris (2,6) - mating regular


This ones I tried to buddy up and failed:

Chelmon rostratus - I had the rescue the smaller one otherwise it would have been killed within hours

Salarias fasciatus - The first two fish I place. Although I still believe that In have tow different sex the male (?) cased the female(?) that much that I took her out after three days.

Pomacanthus navarchus - Two juvenile fish have been placed together. The bigger one cased the smaller one so that he was only allowed to come out for food. Had to get one out after the situation did not improve within 5 months.

Siganus vulpinus - Here to I started with two small fish. They lived together for about one year and from one day to another they started fighting like hell. Had no chance to get one out and one got killed within 24 hours!

Pseudojuloides severnsi - The female of this very nice wrasse converted to a male and the following fighting ended after a few weeks with one fish outside of the tank.

What ids the current status in the US regarding keeping coral fish in pairs / groups?

What are your personal experiences?

Would you like to keep your fish in a more natural way and enable them to have social interaction?

Sorry for the long posting, some spelling errors (but I guess in German it would be less fun for you :D) and the use of the scientific names but most of the US common names I don’t know.

[Triggeraddict]

I have a 209g with a pair of Queen Triggers (6 inches) and a pair of Niger Triggers (5 inches). They are not officially pairs yet cause they are still small and a lot could happen when they grow. I think the Queens might remain a pair since the slightly larger one always looks out for the slightly smaller one. If one of the other fish is harassing her then the larger one will come in and take care of the situation. I have 3 Bar gobies (seperate tank) and they bred about a year ago but haven't done it since. That is the only pairs I have since I keep fish that are not supposed to pair in general so generally don't try but the the larger Queen my ex-boyfriend bought for me knowing I loved triggs even though I already had one. Anyway, hope this helps and congratulations with all your sucess. That is amazing!

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi,

Which tiggers you have in which of your tanks?

Odonus niger is easy to keep with more than one as they life in big groups and feed mainly on plankton.

But with the Queen (guess this is Balistoides vetula??) you will for sure get a problem. Guess you know how big they can get? And that the have huge teritories? I am not a trigger specialist but would guess that as soon as they are getting out of the juvenile status they will start a big fight.

The blue throat is also one you can easy keep as a pair. Specially as they are easy to sex. Unfortunately the femal is not as nice colored as the male.

But I have a question: How do you maintain the No3 and Po4 in normal levels? I expext your fish eat and digest quite some food which has bad impact on the above mentioned parameter.

[ozadars]

Hi Peter,
I love keeping fish in pairs or groups actually. Right now i dont have any pairs but i want to have later. I want royal dottyback, longnose hawk, skunk clown, dwarf angel and marine betta pairs. My tank is 65 gal and dont think can hold all of these. Maybe i can grow these first and few years later when i set up a bigger tank, i can buy their pairs?

Do u have any fries?

[Triggeraddict]

Yes the Queens are Balistes vetula, and yes I do know they can and will get to 2 feet in length. Since I'm at college I have my mom watch them for me and so far they are doing fine together. And like I said earlier I know all bets are off when they grow a bit, but so far they are buddy buddy and protect one another. In the 209 I have the 2 Queens, 2 Nigers, Clown, Blue Line and Huma along with some lg wrasses, and a Zebra Moray Eel. I plan on buying 1-2 125's within the next year to divide out some of the triggs as they mature. I plan on leaving the Queens together as long as I possibly can (once they start going after one another they will be moved) cause they really do enjoy one anothers company. Then I have the Halfmoon and Blue Throat in the 55 (when I get 1 of the 125's the Blue Throat will move up and will probably put the Huma with him- I tried the Blue in the 209 but the Nigers were not thrilled at all so he got removed quickly). Then the Undulate is by himself in the 55. On the 209 I do 25 percent water changes every other week. Plus there is a fully functional Protein skimmer along with 30g sump and 220lbs of Live rock, and I'm planning on adding a 30g refugium to do a deep sand bed. This way I can cut water changes to 1 a month. Anyway, hope this helps.

[Peter Schmiedel]

Thanks for the detailed information :)

[LisaP]

Hi Peter,

Fascinating post, have you managed to raise any of the resulting fry?

I attended a seminar by Dr Thaler last year and she inspired me to try keeping pairs of fish rather than just the one specimen. :D Up to now I've only tried a pair of spotted Mandarins, S. picturatus. They spawn regularly, are an absolute delight to watch and definitely make me want to try another pair of something.

One of the possibilities is adding a 'friend' for my resident Scarlet Hawkfish, N. armatus. I've had this Hawk for almost 9 years now and wonder how it'll react to the introduction of another hawk. :eek: What would you advise?

Regards

Lisa

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi Lisa,

cool I did not know that Ellen Thaler is also known at your end of the world :D - she is the first one who figured out that social interaction is very important for the fish.

It is alsmost impossible to raise them if you have a job where you are not hoem every day. I am an consultant and travel a lot. I bread Lsymatha wurdemani (pepermint shrimp) and this is already very difficult. My next target is bread dotty backs :)

Should be no problem to add another N. armatus, but take care that it is significant smaller! I have a couple of the long nosen hawk fish

http://users.skynet.be/schmiedel/Bilder/korallenwaechter.jpg

This is HIM, he is much smaller than her
To bad that I dont have all the pics on my office computer;)

[LisaP]

Hi again,

Thanks, I figured as much. I'll keep my eye out for a much smaller specimen then. :)

Regards

Lisa

[simonh]

I have the following groupings in my current tank:

Synchiropus picturatus (2) - spotted mandarin (spawning regulatrly)
Gobiosoma oceanops (was 2) - blue cleaner goby (were spawning regularly, lost female recently due to clam - need to re-pair)
Neocirrhites armatus (2) - flame hawkfish (paired but no sign of spawning yet)
Amphiprion ocellaris (2) - common clownfish (spawning regularly)
Chromis viridis (8) - blue-green chromis (spawn regularly)
Pseudanthias parvirostris (9) - no sign of spawning yet

I still have a couple of other fish I would like to pair up but haven't found suitable new introductions yet.

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi Simon.

weird that we have the same Pseudanthias but they dont spawn at your end. Do you have a blue light phase or moonlight installed? Do you know if your male(s) is a primary male or did it migrate to a male from one of your females?

Maybe we should compare tank size and water flow etc to find out if there is any major diffrence?

The Chromis I forgot to mention on my list above - I use the fry as perfect Acropora food :)

Hey just saw that you live rather close - compared to the rest. Where in the UK?

[LisaP]

Simon,

lost female recently due to clam

Blimey, what happened there? :eek:

Peter,

Would you try pairing up Majestic (P. navarchus) angels again?

Regards

Lisa

[Peter Schmiedel]

Simon,

just checked your website :)

The only difference I can see is that I have more stones and you have more swim space. And that you have a species of "Anthias" together with them.

I dont know the deltec pumps as I prefere Red Dragon. What is the total waterflow per hour? I have 32.000 Liter / hour

[Peter Schmiedel]

Originally posted by LisaP

Would you try pairing up Majestic (P. navarchus) angels again?
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

NO! Three reasons for that:

* Seeing them during diving you realize how big their territory is. And we can never fulfil that needs

* I learnd that the male might have a territory which includes several females.

* I am currently changing my philosophie of fish keeping and migrate to only very small fish. Awaiting my order of small gobies next week :)

Happy WE :)

[simonh]

Peter,

I have around 24,000lph total flow. I have a moonlight and a dawn dusk simulation with dimming T5s.

I had to add the Anthias in small groups of 3-4 or so at a time as the LFS could only get hold of them ocassionally (on adding the later groups I lost some of the new group, I presume due to the already established heirachy). It took 6 months or so to build up the group. I think there are 3 males in the group. Maybe they need longer together before spawning behaviour begins. How long have you had the Anthias been together before they started to spawn?

I did have a pair of purple firefish (Nemateleotris decora) but after around 3 months they decided to fight. One jumped down the overflow and went into the sump. Luckily, I managed to net it and return it to the shop.



P.S. Nice website. I remember looking at it when I was researching tanks. I have a Red Dragon pump as a spare (nice pump) but use it for mixing my fresh saltwater at the moment.

Lisa,

One of the gobies decided to make the clam into a home (not sure why as they had been happy for 8 months with a cave). It would dart in and out of the clam just getting out before it shut. Then, one morning I found the goby next to the clam dead and it appeared to have a very big dent in it as if the clam had closed and trapped it.

[Laura D]

What an excellent thread!

I have of late become very interested in keeping fish in pairs or groups.

I would like to find a female green mandarin for my male, but I can't seem to find one at the store here that I am sure is a female, they all have long dorsal spines. I wonder if there is a mail order outlet that can reliable sex them for me.


Anyway, I currently have two pairs of tomatoe clowns.

One pair of Banggai cardinals,

One pair of flame angelfish.

[Peter Schmiedel]

Simon,

I also added mine in two lots. First 1.3 and then again 1.3. The later male was smaller but had much intensive color. But he never took over the female group.

I dont recall that they started spanwing infore there where 8 ???

Recentlz It lost 6 of them as I forgot to switch the IKS computer back to contral mode after maintainence and the temperatur rose to high. Obviously these Anthias come form cooler and deeper water. All other fish and corals had no problem.

I stopped keeping Nemateleotris as sooner or later thez always change sex and start fighting

[downset]

peter, do you know if you can keep possum wrasse (wetmorella) species in pairs?i haven't found any info about this fish and its habits

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi,

good question! I honestly have no idea. All I know about the genus Wetmorella ist that they are living in caves and advoid light. They are very shy and should not be keep with other fast eating or swimming fish. As this fish is rare here I did not get my hands on therm yet. But it is planned.

In on of the monthly german magazins was recently an article about one species. I will try to look it up.

Please REMINDme if you dont get an answer withhin two days.

[ozadars]

Peter,
Do you know if i can keep royal dottyback in pair

[fishermania]

ozadars - if you are tallking about a royal gramma then yes they can. I know someone you succesfully did this by buying a large speciman and a very small speimen that was ajuv. They became a pair. I am not sure, but you may ne able to form a harem. Wiht one arger mail, and several smaller females. You need to check that though.

[ozadars]

Thanx fisher but i m not talking about royal grammas, i mean royal dottyback (bicolor dottyback)

[Preds]

8 Pseudanthias parvirostris (1 male, 7 female.) - No breeding yet.
6 Blue Reef Chromis - no breeding as yet
2 Pearly Jawfish - spawn regularly, no young raised.
2 Flame Angels - they cohabit fairly peacefully. I know someone who kept two for over 3 years, but one day one just turned on the other one. We'll see what happens.
2 Banggai Cardinals - I think they're both males. Will soon be swapping the recessive one for a couple of captive bred Banggais.

[Peter Schmiedel]

ozadars,

sorry but I am not familiar with the english common names. Which one is it???

[fishermania]

I think he refering to Pseudochromis paccagnella

[Peter Schmiedel]

Thanks for the help :) I was hoping it was not the one...

The P.paccagnella ist knonw as the most aggressive one. But this could be due to not keeping them in pairs. I never tried this out. Could be a challenge.

[downset]

well peter, i am trying to pair them up right now.i had what i think is a female in the tank and yesterday i added what i think is a male there is a littlte fighting but it seems to be calming this morning

[Peter Schmiedel]

Sounds interessting .. keep me postet please.
Good luck:)

[downset]

They stopped fighting,but they arent swimming together,they stay on the same side of the tank which is encouraging

[Peter Schmiedel]

If they stopped fighting it should work out.

[Periclimenes]

Can dwarf hawkfish be kept in pairs?

[Peter Schmiedel]

Sorry, but this comon name does not ring any bell in my old brain (?

[ozadars]

downset which fish are you talking about?

[fishermania]

I believe he's talking about Cirrhitichthys aprinus

[Periclimenes]

I'm talking about Cirrhitichthys falco.

[downset]

wetmorella or the possum wrasse

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi Periclimenes,

we keep the C. armatus and the C.typus in pairs. I have not heard about the falco. But all hawkfish I see while diving stay in pairs. IMO there is nothing which speaks against keeping them in a pair.

The problem will to find a male / female as they are not to sex. From all mating couples I have seen it was easy to tell the female as they where much more round in the belly area. Best would be to pick two out of a group in your LFS - if they keep them in groups and not single. Thats how I found my pair of C.typus

[JohnM99]

Hi Peter
Thank you for starting such an interesting thread.

Can you provide more details on pairing Zebrasoma flavescens - Yellow Tang - given that these fish are often incompatible, it would be important to know the factors that lead to compatibility and incompatibility - age/size, method of introduction, site of origin, tank and feeding conditions etc.

I see you are a diver - I have often watched these fish underwater in Hawaii, and find them endlessly fascinating.

Cheers
John

[Peter Schmiedel]

John,

this is nat easy to say as these fish dont show and signs in sexing them.

Most people who tried to keep them in a group ended up in one pair. My pair comes from a privat tank where htey started as a group.

Basically we try to start eithr with two really small fish, or you combine a bigger and a smaller fish. It mostly works fine, but of course not always. I had for instance bad luck with S.vulpinius and P.narvarchus with this methode.

Anyway if you see the any fish showing his natural mating and spawning behavoir you know that you did the right thing :D

[David M]

Well I sort of hate to double post like this, but there seems to be two nearly identicle threads so here goes:

Finally a thread I can really sink my teeth into. Pairs and groups are the BEST way to enjoy many fish IMO, they are just so much more interesting. OK- what I have kept:
The basics, clownfish and seahorses, many species of each. Successful breeding of both and rearing of sh fry.
Mandarins- both species in pairs, no spawning.
Red Scooter blennies- spawning pair.
Flame angels, pairs and groups up to 5. What I would call "pre-spawning" behavior observed in one pair, lost female to open top.
Pearlscale butterflies, two housed together, sexes unknown.
Whitespotted Bamboo sharks, male/female pair.
Chevron butterfly (C. trifasciallis). Unsuccessful at keeping two together, had to seperate.
Jackknife drum (avitar)- group of 3.
Red Faced butterfly (C. larvatus). Behavior indicated male/female pair but not confirmed. Tragically lost to my own stupidity at 6 months.
Orchid dottyback- breeding pair.
Fairy wrasse (C. ventrallis), one male with two females.
Pakistan butterflies, group of three.
Coral banded shrimp, two breding pairs.
Bangaii cardinals, breeding pairs and family groups.
Blue neon gobies, 2's and 3's
Queen angelfish- unsuccessful at keeping two small juvies together, had to seperate.
I get to set up and service tanks for others so can experiment a lot. I find the easiest way to establish a pair or trio is to start with 5 or 7 of the species in a large tank and let them work it out, removing any that need to be protected. For whatever reason odd numbers seem to work better. Starting with only two has failed too many times.

[PRC]

Bigger thread wins :p
I guess, so I'll post to this one.
I was planning on getting a pair of Mandarins for my 220 (been fishless over a year and has upstream and downstream fuges) and had heard that they would do well in pairs and possibly spawn in the tank. I asked the LFS owner (who I trust, and BTW, won't sell any of the several mandarins he has in his tanks) and he told me that a male would probably kill a single female and I would need to get 3 or 4 females to keep the peace. Again, he's not selling them so that's not his motivation (and I don't think he'd do that anyway). I don't think I'll have any problem supporting two mandarins, but I'm not really sure I'm ready to try 4 or 5. Has anyone had any experience with this? Good or bad?

[DonJasper]

You didn't read the thread before you posted.

How do I know this? Hummmm....

[David M]

I have never heard of anyone having trouble with a single pair. Two males will fight, but a m/f pair should be no problem. The general consensus seems to be that the spotted variety is more likely to acclimate and thrive, but many people keep the greens as well. I have both and both are eating prepared foods as well as all the bugs they can catch.

[PRC]

Thanks David, I'd never heard this before the other day and it had me kind of worried. Maybe the LFS owner got two males by accident, I'd definitely heard that would be a problem. I was also curious on the spotted vs green, thanks for answering my unasked question.
Did you buy yours as pairs, or as individuals and pair them in your tank?

DonJasper, actually I read all of this thread and the other one (and did a search) before posting. I noticed three posts on people with mandarin pairs and was hoping to verify that they're actually pairs and not groups. Can't be too cautious.
Also I was wondering if anyone had any bad experiences since, as I mentioned I'd never heard of this being an issue before.

[David M]

Did you buy yours as pairs

No, just two fish chosen at random. (male and female of course)

[LisaP]

I still have my pair and they are still very much in lurve. ;)

The male was added 4 months before the female. :D

Regards

Lisa

[PRC]

Thanks very much for the info.

And, Peter, thanks for starting this wonderful and informative thread.

I only noticed one mention of Pearly Jawfish (Opistognathus aurifrons). I've heard they work well in groups and are rather social. Anyone else have experience with them?

[OrionN]

Fish that I got in my 450 g tank and have spawn regularly are:
Yellow tail blue damsels
Mandarin
Orchid dottyback
Clowns Ocellaris, Percula, Pink Skunk
Banggai Cardinals
Pajama Cardinals
Purple fire fish (lost with tank crash)
Fire fish (now)
Randall Schrimp Goby
Cherup Angel
Royal Gramma
Yellow clown goby
Marine Betta
Not breeding yet Yellow head Jawfish
There maybe several others I forgot.
I think keeping fishes in breeding units is one of the best ways to observe them like in the wild.
Minh

[OrionN]

BTW, like Peter, I am to just keep mostly small fish in my tank. I start to get very interested in shrimp gobies and got one very unusual Black Sailfin Shrimp goby. I am looking for a mate for him but unsucessful so far.
Minh

[OrionN]

Originally posted by PRC
.... I asked the LFS owner (who I trust, and BTW, won't sell any of the several mandarins he has in his tanks) and he told me that a male would probably kill a single female and I would need to get 3 or 4 females to keep the peace......
This is flat wrong. If your tank is large enough, you can keep one male and (I read that we can keep) several females (green mandarin). I only keep pairs only. These fish will ignore each other untill spawn time in the evenning as the light going out. They will then seek each other and will spawn. They can do several days of false spawn dance and will spawn once every two weeks or so. They day that they will actually spawn will be easy to predict. The female will be so full of eggs that her stomach looks like she swallow a chicken egg earlier that day.
I have had a large female that attack a small male before but I think this is very rare. I trade the small male back to the LFS and got one that is larger than she is and it was fine after that. They spawn a month later.
Minh

[Peter Schmiedel]

Originally posted by Minh Nguyen
I think keeping fishes in breeding units is one of the best ways to observe them like in the wild.
Minh [/B]

I hope once we can convince more poeple about that and no fish will have to suffer a single life ;)

[gwrulzmylife]

Minh Nguyen is correct, it's tank size.

When I first started reefing I would always ask how many (x) fish I could have in my tank. Never did they once ask my size of tank or reef setup, just X many (usually one). Tang police would have a hayday at my home, as many tangs live happily in my tank.

I think a standard policy is to put the minimum number of fish in a tank as possible to reduce bioload, and when adding fish that may not get along - add them at the same time either bt purchasing them at the same time or isolating the old fish while the new acclimates.

Good luck!

[PRC]

Thanks Minh,
Sounds like I should go for a Mandarin pair with a male slightly larger than the female.
Can I assume that your jawfish are a pair as well? Were you able to determine their sex or did you just get two and hope it works out. I can't find any info on determining the sex of Yellowhead jawfish anywhere.
I like your idea of going with only small fish. It's nice to see someone with an even bigger tank going that route.

[Peter Schmiedel]

push

[OrionN]

Originally posted by PRC
....

Can I assume that your jawfish are a pair as well? Were you able to determine their sex or did you just get two and hope it works out. I can't find any info on determining the sex of Yellowhead jawfish anywhere.
I like your idea of going with only small fish. It's nice to see someone with an even bigger tank going that route.
I only have one Pearly jawfish. There is a way to determine the sex durring breeding season. I read that the male have two spots on their jaw hile the female have none. I am not sure how accurate this information is. Ocassionally, I see Pearly jawfish with two spots on them.
Minh

[fishermania]

Hey peter have you had any sucessful spwning or pairings with your Eviota guttata or Coryphopterus personatus gobies.

fman

[Peter Schmiedel]

I am rather sure that my Eviota so. Red Bar male has been protecting eggs a view times. Unfortunately I lost them all in a periode of 2-3 Month one by one. Nothing to see and all other gobies in the same tank are fine. Now clue, maybe life span was reached?

My C. personatus have had eggs several times. They always choose to place the eggs in the housing of the Tunze Turbelle and I found out during cleaning the pump. Was quite suprised as the male suddenly jumped into my hands.

[marinebetta]

Hi Peter,

Read in your first post that you have a L. swalesi pair. How do you tell the sexes apart? Scott Michael says in his book that they are dimorphic, but then does not go on to say what the differences are....

Myself, I only have pairs of clowns - A percula, ocellaris and polymnus....and also a pair of yasha gobies.

[David M]

:) I think I sort of lost track of where this thread is going???? I like it though ;) , so I have a question about Flame Hawkfish. Does anyone have a pair and if so can you tell us anything about their spawning habits? Approx size of eggs? Incubation period? Size of larvae? First foods? - D

[Maximus]

I have a pair of centropyge interruptus in my 150g tank. They hang out together all day and are doing great. I also have a pair of black occelaris and a pair of onyx percula. I guess you can say, I have three pairs of fish in my tank!

[Newby-Reefer]

Anyone have infor on how to pair Cherubs?

[Peter Schmiedel]

MB,

I have pairs of L.rubre, salesi and carmabi. Fort all of them one is significant bigger and has a really big round middle part. These ones I consider to be the females. I had the lick that I could always pick two out of serveral so that I could pay attention all possible sex determination signs.

Next is that I will try to keep them in a group to see how they will react.

[Peter Schmiedel]

NR,

I had them as a trio. Centropyge are born as females and can change sex to males if they are the dominat fish. Get really small ones and let them fight out hwo is the boss = male.

[marinebetta]

Originally posted by Peter Schmiedel
MB,

I have pairs of L.rubre, salesi and carmabi. Fort all of them one is significant bigger and has a really big round middle part. These ones I consider to be the females. I had the lick that I could always pick two out of serveral so that I could pay attention all possible sex determination signs.

Next is that I will try to keep them in a group to see how they will react.
Thanks for the info, Peter. Unfortunately, the few swalesi I've seen here have been single fish so there's nothing to compare to! But they were rather on the small and slim side so maybe males??

Keep us posted on your experiment of keeping them in groups!

[Newby-Reefer]

Peter what do u recomend gallonage wise for a trio to duke it out?

[David M]

NR- I have formed a few pairs and trios of flame angels by placing 5 or 6 into a 60 gallon tank with a lot of rockwork, pvc tubes, etc. Often I have to pull one early as it ends up being the scapegoat but sometimes not. Usually a dominant fish will appear almost immediately and will accept and reject various fish. Close observation will tell you which are compatible. Of course this does not necessirly mean they are male/ females pairs or trios but I think it's a good guess. The pairs and trios I have formed this way are to this day living in harmony in crowded reef tanks and I have observed at least one pair (the only pair I kept for a while) engaged in spawning behavior, though no eggs were released to my knowledge. One note, a good cover is needed for the tank for this technique :D Nothing worse than finding a $40 flame angel on the floor in the AM. :(

[Newby-Reefer]

One problem i dont have the $ to buy a big tank for pairing. Is there someone with a pair already that is looking to sell. Probaly not eh.

[David M]

I'm confused, where do you plan to put pair? A 60 is not a "big tank" at all all would certainly be the bare minimum I would suggest for a pair of dwarf angels.

[Newby-Reefer]

I am planning a 33 gallon or a 55 gallon thank. I wanted a pair of Cherubs if i was going to get a 33 but people have been saying they get too aggressive so i was going to put in a single Bicolour. If i am getting a 55 gallon i would like a pair of Bicolors but i cannot seem to find a pair. I dont have a 90 gallon tank to pair them in and my LFS has no space to pair them for me.

[David M]

OK, JMO but those tanks are pretty small for what you want. The 33 is right out and the 55 may be OK for the cheribs but I certainly wouldn't want to put two bi-colors in there. Also do a little reading before deciding on the bi-color, not known to be a great "starter" fish. :)

[Newby-Reefer]

o okay thanks. Myabe i will get a Flame or a CB They are nice too.

[David M]

Either of those would be a great choice :D

[overflowin]

i currently have a pair of gobiosoma oceanops, no spawning activity as of yet, but i am hopeful as they grow they start.

i have had a pair of a. ocellaris, wich i unfortunately lost both in a silicone seam 'incident'...and also i had a pair of yellow coris wrasses, which is down to one now, due to a very aggressive and semmingly uncatchable GSM. after i remove the clown i plan on another yellow wrasse.

i am also keeping an a. guttata in my tank, which i would like to add a couple buddies for, a pistol shrimp and a mate.

has anyone been successful keeping multiple firefish in a relatively small aquarium? my tank is only 75 gallons right now, but i am hopeful to upgrade to 180 or 200 in a few years.

donnie

[OrionN]

Originally posted by overflowin
....

has anyone been successful keeping multiple firefish in a relatively small aquarium? my tank is only 75 gallons right now, but i am hopeful to upgrade to 180 or 200 in a few years.

donnie
Firefish only live single or one pair. Anything more than one pair will end up with one chase out of the tank (to the carpet). Sometime one firefish will chase another out of the tank after a few months.

[Peter Schmiedel]

NR,

I agree with David. PairÃ*ng bigger species in thsi tnaks wont work as they fis has not enough space. Stay with the idea of a pair and focus on C.argi, acanthops or aurantonotus. Only these ones stay small enough for your tank and are in your budget scope.

[Newby-Reefer]

Alright

[overflowin]

peter,

would you say a 75 gallon tank is enough room for a pair of Flame angels or maybe coral beauties? these are the fish i am trying to decide between, and it would be great if i could provide a suitable home for a pair.

i currently have 2 neon gobies, a royal gramma, a yellow coris wrasse and an orange spotted prawn goby. there is also a maroon clown in there that i am trying to remove. future inhabitants would be another yellow wrasse, a second orange spotted goby and pistol, possibly a pair of s. nematodes w/ pistol. then last to be introduced would be a dwarf angel as a centerpiece. total water volume is around 130 gallons with my 2 refugiums...heavily skimmed.

thanks,
donnie

[David M]

I have a pair of flames in a 90 I service and it is way more stocked then that (overstocked in fact :rolleyes: ). There is a purple tang and a blueface angel in there too :eek1: . A 90 is the same as a 75 but a bit taller, I think it would be fine for a pair of flames but while I don't know what the books say, IME coral beauties can get quite a bit larger.

[Newby-Reefer]

Maybe I will mastwer keeping a single fish before i think of pairs. Thanks for all your help i have bookmarked this thread for when the time for a pair comes.

[David M]

NR, early in this thread I think there are some posts about why it is so rewarding to keep fish in pairs and groups. It is the interaction of your fish that makes your tank interesting and enjoyable, so many people start out with a hodge-podge mix of unrealted fish from all corners of the earth and wonder why they get bored. :rolleyes: One of the most stunning tanks I ever put together had 3 pakistan butterflies and 5 flame angels, that's it. The way the red flames set off the red tails of the paks is awesome. Anyway my point is that you started off on the right track, don't give up now. A pair of flames, a pair of clownfish, a trio of fairy wrasses (take yer pic), you can set up a really dynamic tank.

[Paul B]

I have been telling people for years that fish should always be kept in breeding condition and when they are in that condition they will be either cleaning a place for a nest, chasing away same sex fish or looking for a mate. These of course will be small gobies, bleenies and damsels. Unfortunately, when most reef fish are full grown they are too large for an average aquarium and are always in a state of stress. Most fish that are free swimming are schooling fish and are never seen alone on a reef. They are also never found in two feet of water where they must turn around every four or five feet. If you follow free swimming fish on a reef (you have to be a good swimmer) they swim in wide circles or a hundred years or so picking at the coral as they go. When something scares them they all turn at once. We can not of course reproduce this in a tank but we can induce the smaller fish to spawn which they do all the time with no help from us other than to supply a good diet and as little stress as possable to an animal that is living in concentration camp conditions. Anyway, I recently returned from a diving trip to Tahiti and followed a lot of moorish Idols. I only saw them in pairs, never alone and only once I saw three of them but I think the pair was trying to lose the intruder. These swim fast and keep circling the reef in huge arcs.
Paul
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094morish_idols_tahiti-med.jpg

[overflowin]

awesome pics, paul...i love moorish idols...which is why i probably would't attempt to keep one. Where are you from on the Island? i grew up in East Islip.

so i imagine the best bet with the flame angels would be to get two at once as small as i can find? is there an ideal size, 1, 2, 3 inches?

do you guys think my GSM would be less aggressive if i gave her a male to beat up? or would she be more aggressive in breeding mode?

donnie

[Newby-Reefer]

overflowing that GSM would be even more aggresssive to your fish they would have to learn where they can and cant go around that maroon. I think in a 72 gallon if she set up shop in one corner then u might be okay but if she hosts something in the center you ar hooped. Moorish Idols can easily be kept in todays tanks. As long as you find a healthy one right off the bat and have enough LR for it to graze on. The trick is to find a healthy one that is eating prepared food though.

[overflowin]

its not a matter of keep a moorish idol alive...its keeping it happy. i just don't think one should be kept in a 75...or even some larger tanks. the maroon has claimed the whole right half of the aquarium...tolerates the gramma but is always posturing with the a. guttata that set up shop on the sand nearby. the wrasse is too fast to care about the clown...unfortuately his buddy wasn't...

i really hope i can get that clown out without removing any rock...

donnie

[Paul B]

Donnie, I am from New Hyde Park Long Island. As for Moorish Idols, they are one of my favorite fish. One of the reasons I went to Tahiti was to dive with them. As I said they swim in pairs. I also saw a lot of long nosed butterflies which were also in pairs in the same places that the Idols hang out. Of course most tangs swim in small schools and broadcast eggs freely in the sea so we won't be breeding them soon. At least I don't think so.
My moorish Idol is happy and healthy and she grew about an inch in the last 5 monthes. Of course I would like to have a pair of them which is the way they live in the sea but my 100 gallon reef is about thirty feet too short for them. I will just have to go back to Tahiti to see more of them. What was said about them is true. They have a personality and some of them just do not adapt to captivity. They require special care and I believe only experienced people should keep them. I think I have enough experience.
Great thread by the way.
Have a great day.
Paul


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Morish_Idol.jpg

[Newby-Reefer]

overflowing. IN a 300 gallon system i think an idol would be happy. It may not be at first but it would adapt to the system. But I will admit I would rather see them in the ocean picking at corals than in a 8*3*3 tank .

[Newby-Reefer]

David I said said I wasnt going to keep a angel pair. That dont mean i wont keep other pairs :) I plant on a pair of B&W or Onyx CLowns, pair of blood shrimp pair of Yellownose shrimp gobies, and a pair of either sharknose or neon gobies :) I just said i was going to wait on a Angel pair. I love to see fish in pairs. There was a lady in nova soctia that has a pair of Golden Red Sea Butterfly fish in here 300 gallon system those were nice fish.

[David M]

NR- cool :)

Paul B- The idol is one of my favorite fish, I have one that's been doing well in a 125 reef for about 18 months. The tank is a little small I know but I got the fish at about 2-1/2" hoping that it would grow up accostomed to the small space and not stress out. I have seen the behavior of tangs that outgrow their tanks and so I watch the idol for signs of stress, so far at 6-7" he seems just fine. His "buddy" is a pbt purchased the same day, they were both so small I qt'd them together in a ten gallon tank :) The pbt has not grown as large as the idol, I am hoping it is a male which apparantly do not get as large as the females.

Anyway I was wondering if you happened to know of any spawning info on the idols? You saw them traveling in pairs but they may still spawn in groups like other fish making captive breeding unrealistic. OTOH if they spwan as individual pairs it may be more conceivable.

FWIW at the Aquarium in Long Beach, CA, they keep a group (5 or 6) of idols in an outdoor pond dedicated to small sharks, mostly bamboo's and juvie zebra's. I was told they never had any luck keeping them indoors but when they placed some into the pool they flourished. The aquarist I spoke with was convinced that the natural sunlight played a role either by the algae it produced or by somehow allowing for direct sysnthesis of some crucial element within the fish. These idols largely ignore each other, no swimming in pairs and only occasionally crossing paths. No aggression either though, I watched them feed side by side several times. - D

[David M]

One more thing on moorish idols. A local fellow here had a very large reef tank, approx 10' X 6' x 6'. He tried to keep a group of idols (I forget how many, maybe 4-5). It was a disaster with constant brutal fighting the most dominant actually killing at least one fish, they all had to be seperated.

[Paul B]

David, I would have loved to watch them long enough to see some spawning but you can only stay in Bora Bora until you run out of money so I only had a week of diving with them. The pairs would swim together or rather one would follow the other a few feet behind. They were about 6" like yours. They swam in large arcs maybe a half an acre and there was only a pair on each part of the reef. I did not see the individual pairs get together. I assume them have a section of reef they patrol but as I said I was not down long enough on each dive to witness this.
Here is a shot of the same reef.
Paulhttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094butterfly_turtle_tahiti-med.jpg
The turtle would be nice in your reef. She was about 200 lbs and is named Clemintine. She just wanted to play and be hugged.

[nickb]

I'm been reading this thread with considerable interest and would like to try some pair/groups in a new tank. I'm trying to decide on a suitable size tank. For the following fish, what size tank would people suggest:

1) Flame angel X 4: Centropyge loriculus
2) Assessor (pair): either Assessor flavissimus OR Assessor macneilli (These seem hard to get in Canada)
3) Bangaii Cardinal (Pair): Pterapogon kauderni
4) Algae Blenny (just 1): Salarias fasciatus

An alternative to the Assessor (if I can't find them) would be a small harem of flasher wrasse but I'm not sure which type would be best with the angels.

Very much in the planning stage but opinions appreciated.

[Newby-Reefer]

Nick i wouldnt go with anything smaller than a 180 gallon with 4 flames

[nickb]

The material I've been able to find about Brad Ward's flame angel harem said that he kept 6 of them in a 120G tank.

[OrionN]

Brad had 6 Flame in a 120 g. They were exceptional. He also have a harem of bar gobies in that SPS dominated tank and a few other fishes including one or two tangs (I can't remember the exact number of the gobies and the tangs)
Minh

[ozadars]

You can keep 4 flame angels in a 75gal tank too but watching them wouldnt be as joyful as a 180gal IMO. Because hareming fish are the ones that share the same territory and in a big tank you can watch how they behave in and out of their territory. Instead of a assessors, you can go with a harem of sixline wrasses.
PS: If I were you I would take the lawnmover off the list and go with a tang (sure if you go with a big tank) because an active fish will keep the fish in the harem together.

[David M]

Yes, I would want a 6' tank for sure, even a 125 but when you consider the differance in cost you might as well go for the 180. The usual arguement is that you are going to have the same lights and filtration either way so you might as well get the added depth of the 180.

As for the fairy wrasses, the hard part (here at least) is getting the females. They mostly import males because the color is better and most people just buy one. Females are very hard to come by.

[Peter Schmiedel]

I would not place 4 darf angels in less than 300g. A couple is fine for 75g mabye 1,2 in 120 g but I consider that rather small.

[nickb]

Thanks all for the advice. 300G is bigger than I'm looking at so, I guess I'll re-think things.

[zaslax]

What type of pairs can I keep in a 46 bowfront with a 15 gallon fuge on the bottom?

[OrionN]

Firefish, Royal Gramma, Banggai Cardinals, Orchid Dottybacks, Clowns, Shrimp Gobies, Yellowhead Jawfish, Cherub angels, Yellow tail damsels,...
These fishes, I have personally keep and feel that they will do well in a 46 g tank. Not all of them at once but perhaps three pairs. They will get along well with each other.

[zaslax]

Thanks that helps a lot.

[Peter Schmiedel]

To the excellent suggestion from Minh i would like to add the Genus Liopropoma, and all the small gobies of Eviota and Trimma. But not togehter with the Lioporpoma ;)

[zaslax]

Thanks I am looking at a pair of a smaller clownfish, a goby pair and some center piece fish.

[nickb]

Does anyone have any pointers to threads, discussions, etc. about keeping six-oline wrasse (Pseudocheilinus hexataenia) in a small harem? Peter mentioned them in his initial post to this thread but I can't any more information when I do an RC search. Thanks.

[Peter Schmiedel]

Nick,
we still do it here in Europe :) my group (4) is still fine an spawns regularly

More infos about all my pairs and groups here (http://www.reefsafe.de/paar.htm) but you will need a translation tool or German lessons ;)

If there are questions regarding a single species we can always discuss it in this thread.

[Quatro]

Hi Peter,

If I remember correctly, you were planning a trip to Ascension Island to observe the Resplendent Angel. I was wondering how your trip went, and if you cared to share any info about these little beauties? Did you publish any photos from your trip? Finally, are you still considering a harem for your aquarium?

Thanks,
Harry

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi Harry,

yes you remember right, guess you missed this (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=563350) thread.

[Quatro]

Awesome,

Thanks Peter!

[fussoverthis]

bump for an old thread which I think is great.

Anybody have any new pairs or groups? I'm particularly interested in info about those that keep groups of sixline wrasses.

Thanks!

[tibbs2]

I have a pair of spotted mandarins and common ocellaris. I wish to get a mated pair of jawfish. Does anyone have any tips on identifying a mail from a female?

[Jens Kallmeyer]

Hi tibbs2

I have 4 Jawfishes in my 110 gal tank, no problem. They all dug their burrows in one corner of the tank and every once in a while they "visit" each others burrow. So far I can not see any difference between them, except for size. Have not observed any mating yet.
I also have 3 blue and 2 yellow assessors in the tank, no distinction between sexes. The blue ones have bread a few times, but always swallowed the fry after a few days.
Another great fish to keep in groups is the yellow wrasse, Halichoeres chrysus. I had 4 im my last tank and they are just great, constantly turning over the sand and always in motion, without bothering corals.
I really think most fishes are much better off in pairs, and I personally avoid a fish rather than keeping a single specimen.

Cheers

Jens

[Peter Schmiedel]

Good idea to pull it in the open again!

Here an update list compared to my orignial posting

Sucessfull pairs and groups:

Bodianus bimaculatus
Apogon magriphora
Wettmorella niripiniata
Discordipinna griessingeri
Priolepis nocturna
Trimma cana
Tryssogobius colini
Emblemaria pandionis
Gramma linkii
Ctenochaetus hawaiiensis
Centropyge flavissimus
Centropyge potteri
Liopropoma carmabi
Premnas biaculeatus
Coryphopterus personatus
Valenciennea wardi
Signigobius biocellatus
Discordipinna griessingeri
Caracanthus unipiniata
Eviota bifasciata
Helcogramma striata
Pseudojuloides severnsi
Cirrhilabrus lineatus

Unclear results:
Plectranthias inermis - partially after apair was found it was ok

Belonepterygion fasciolatum - hard to say if it worked I never see them together and dont even know if I still have tow


But I also encountered set backs:
Siganus magnificus
Siganus vulpinus
Paragobiodon lacunicolus
Apogon maculatus

[jda]

My Potters wrasses court each other a lot (1 male and 2 females).

My Watanabei Pair also "try" and spawn, but nothing every comes out of it. They circle around each other really fast and sometimes the female releases eggs, but the male never seems to do anything. The other fish eat all the eggs, but it was fun to watch them. I have only seen it twice in about 16 months.

[billpa]

Great thread!

Im actually planning on keeping a harem of 4-5 C. Argi (Atlantic Cherub Angels) in my 180g tank. I've seen and heard many references to a guy named "Brad" who has kept upwards of 6 flame angels in the same tank. Is there a website or thread with more info? I have been unsuccessful with finding anyone currently keeping a harem of Cherubs although I have seen a few people keeping harems of Flames. I suppose Flames are more popular ;)

I was planning on introducing all fish at once (obviously). My only problem so far is finding 4-5 tiny Cherubs at the same place. Anybody know of a reliable online retailer that could provide me with the above? I really dont want to order online but I might have to if I don't find them locally. Also, does anybody have a rough estimate on size for an unsexed C. Argi? They are small fish to begin with so that might be a tough if not impossible question to answer ;)

The only thing I will have to do is extend the eggcrate covers on my tank. I owned one for a little over a year and it went carpet surfing one day. Im sure their tendancies to jump will increase as numbers increase and each fish is figuring out who the male is, who the females are.

TIA,
billpa

[Bax]

I am in the process of attempting to pair a pair of pseudochromis fridmani (orchid dottybacks). I have had the female for a while and just purchased a much younger male. The male has been suspended in a container in the females tank for several weeks now. She no longer spends the day attempting to break through the container to kill him and occasionally prances and shakes for him, so we are making real progress. I'll be releasing the male first into a new 75 g system and one or two days later adding the female. Hopefully, this approach will work out.

[overflowin]

my clowns (a. ocellaris) have been in my tank for about a month now, they were fresh from ORA when i got them. they have started bickering the last few weeks, and one seems to be getting bigger in relation to the other's growth. is this behavior normal when one asserts it dominance as the female, or are they just fighting? any advice on making them play nice?

thanks
donnie

[billpa]

Thats typical behavior....and bickering is most likely how high it will escalate. Mine calmed down in a few weeks. Then the male will never leave the females side. Have you been observing the submissive one (male) twitching? Thats a sign of submission.

HTH
billpa

[overflowin]

i was worried about the twitching...yes...only the smaller one twitches, and it usually makes the other back off for a second. he is now laying on the sand near where they sleep near eachother at night. he gets up and swims around, but she chases him back to that spot. there he sits and waits until something distracts him.

he seems healthy otherwise...there is no fighting when there is food in the water. now if they would just find their anemone...

donnie

[billpa]

Hey Donnie

Sounds perfectly normal. Enjoy that interaction because it will soon fade away. Its pretty cool to see how one asserts their dominance and the other naturally becomes submissive.

Give them some time. They will most likely find their anemone. Good luck!

billpa

[toonces]

well, this is excessively boring compared to you guys, but i have a pair of blue and yellow damsels- chrysiptera hemicyanea- in my 110. i tried to pair a couple of flames, but it did't work at all.

i'd still like to try a pair of dwarf angels. i'm going to be keeping my eyes open for the right fish.

[wayne in norway]

My dwarfs have settled in happily. One week in now... and both swimming together and eating flake.
Get them small.