2 purple tangs in a 180?

[docmal]

Ok I know this sounds bad but my younger cousin is going to college and has a purple tang which is his most favored fish. He doesn't want to get rid of it so one option wold be to give it to me. Problem is I have one already. My purple tang is rather agressive and hides alot, chasing anything that comes near it and his is very passive and swims around alot. The tank will inhabit a pair of clowns, a sohal tang and 6 green chromis in addition to the purple tangs. It is a 180 reef tank. Has anyone had experience with 2 purples together? they are both roughly the same size. at about 3.5 inches including tail fin. I told him it probobly wouldn't work but I would look into it, so here I am. Thanks!

[hcs3]

a single purple will do very well in a 180g - by itself. adding a second purple to the tank with an established purple already in it is asking for WW3.

a sohal doesn't belong in a 180g. a sohal demands a larger tank than any other of the tangs. a small 3" sohal would not be happy in a 180g, let alone an adult.

HTH

henry

[docmal]

The tank will be relatively new when both go in and both would be introduced at the same time.

As far as the sohol, that's just not true. If you have enough swimming room they can be quite happy. I have seen a nice fat sohal in a 135. In my experience they get to be about 8 inches max in captivity and this seems to be fine in a 180. Most recommendations state a 135 or bigger. But that's not what I asked is it? I know what fish I can and want to keep and I have asked and done my reseasrch on the sohol. Most people around here have thought a 180 would be fine for sohol. So lets stick to the question at hand and not cross over to a different subject. Thanks though.

[johnny]

I was going to answer your question...... then I read your nasty response.

Nick

[vanguard]

Ok, I've been sucked into this now. I feel for docmal. Sometimes I feel like I can't ask about lights without somebody telling me my sandbed isn't deep enough, my protien skimmer is too strong, or whatever.

It makes it tough to ask a question on the board when you know you're opening yourself up to criticism.

As for the topic at hand, I read a conversation on this board where somebody said you can put two Zebrasoma tangs in an 8' tank but not a 6' tank. (I think a 180 is 6').

However, I don't have any experience trying it so you'll have to take that advice with a grain of salt.

[johnny]

Vangaurd,

I'm glad that it happens, or else the person may never realize they are making a mistake or doing something against the generally accepted rule of thumb. I can't begin to count the amount of times that a person has asked... "should I keep my UGF?" ... they never ask if they should keep the bare bottom tank or the trickle fitler or the rio pumps... but I'm VERY glad people point it out to them.

On the purple tang subject... there's an 80% chance they will rip eachother's heads off..... 5% chance one is male and the other female and 15% chance one will become dominant and the other will just hide all day.

Most tangs won't tolerate another fish that looks even close to the same species as them (aka a copperband and a yellow tang have problems).

The reason the sohal tang was suggested against was that it is one of the more open swimmers. It can live in a 6' tank... should it? well that's your choice... kinda like abortion, some are for it, some against... but everyone is entitled to their opinions.... it is only when another tries to suppress someone's opinion that I feel it becomes wrong.

Nick

[BrianD]

My purple tang is rather agressive and hides alot, chasing anything that comes near it

That statement should answer your own question as to whether that fish would welcome another of its species, as well as a sohal tang.

they are both roughly the same size. at about 3.5 inches including tail fin.

They grow. Not only do they get larger, but also more temperamental as they mature.

In my experience they get to be about 8 inches max in captivity

Unless the fish is malnourished and its growth has been stunted, the sohal should easily reach over 12 inches.

So lets stick to the question at hand and not cross over to a different subject.

Asking responders to ignore other occupants in your tank when offering an opinion is not reasonable, IMO. When making stocking decisions, all inhabitants must be considered.

Yes, you will find people who think it is ok to put a sohal in a 180, 125, or even a 75. I would submit, however, that the majority of the threads that start "my fish have ich/parasistes/are dying/are dead" would go away if more sane stocking decisions were made.

BTW, I have a purple tang in a 180, and it is the only tang in that tank.

Brian

[hcs3]

hmmm, the infamous "i saw someone else do it, so i know i can". that brood statement is usually offered on a regular basis by hobbiest attempting something that should not be done. i guess it eases thier mind; making them think it's OK.

truth be told, a sohal claims a part of the reef as it's "home" that is larger than that of a football field. that means it defends this area against food competitors, as well as rival males. to think a fish of this species could ever be happy in all but the largest of home aquaria (read 500+g) is meerily fooling yourself.

but so long as you have fooled yourself, you'll never realize the fish will be unhappy. and that's what matters most :(

i'm sorry my adivce to you was not well taken. it was meant to assist you in choosing the correct stocking levels for this tank. though you may not want to talk about the sohal (any particular reason why?), it must be discussed. as pointed out above, how could you discuss stocking levels without including every fish that will be in the tank? that would be irresponsible.

henry

[docmal]

Jeez everyone, I really didn't think it was that big of a deal. I can point out my sources to you guys if you want me too... Like I said (if you would read) I have asked on this very board about my stocking before and everyone who responded seemed to think it was okay. Now I realize that hcs3 is a moderator so I am not going to be beligerent here. The fact remains is I have quite a few posts and am a regular here, and I just thought I should be treated with a little more regaurd than some newbie. I't allways annoys me to no end when people want a simple answer and get a bunch of crap from someone who's opinions are on the conservative side. Sure you say all this sentimental crap like "would the fish like it" But what the hell do you know? State your experience with an "unhappy" fish. I have yet to see an unhappy fish that is fat and disease free. Isn't that the definition in our hobby of happy? I guess I am rambling here are some quotes I found interesting.

From FFexpress and Bob Fenner (Author of the Conscientious Marine aquarist:

Q: I currently have a 125G tank with a Sohal tang, Golden butterfly, a couple of damsels and a Purple tang. My question is, if it is possible to have several Purple tangs in the same tank? If so, how many?


A: It is possible to keep several Purple Tangs (Zebrasoma xanthurum) in the same system. Have seen it done, done so myself. The following are considerations that make it more likely they'll all get along: The bigger the system, the sooner that all are placed together, and starting with smaller individuals in a system with plenty of live rock, hiding spaces.... the better. If you already have one, the most I would add is two to a 125, and I would get the next two (or if you have none, all three), about the same size, and smaller than the existing one (if you already have it). If they "spar" quite a bit at first, don't be overly concerned... unless you see actual injury or one of them hiding in the corner, not feeding, they will ease into getting along. -Bob Fenner-

Notice he says nothing of the sohal.
------------------------------------------------------------

Page 78 in The Natural Reef Aquarium by John Tullock:

230-Gallon
dimensions 72x24x30 [Same as a 180 except higher]
Livestock: Purple tang, 5 masked butterfly, sohal tang, 7 large anthias, checkerboard wrasse, mimic blennies.
------------------------------------------------------------

Direct quote from Scott W. Michael who used to own Animal Talk Aquatics where I worked for 2 years (now he writes fish books). "I kept a vlamingi tang very happy in a 135 by not overdoing the rock and other livestock"

Vlimingi Tangs are bigger than sohals. Not to mention that the new owner of animal talk still has this vlamingi tang (and he is awesome).

------------------------------------------------------------

I have worked for an LFS cleaning tanks for their maintanence business. We had over 90 costomer's tanks per week to clean. I have seen MANY sohals, some very very old. None of which where over 8 to 10 inches. And none where in tanks bigger than a 180.

Just look in your books people! This is okay. You can also search Reefcentral too and see my post for help with my stocking decisions. Where were you then?

Anyway, I do apologize for being rude but I just don't like being treated like an idiot when I have been posting and contributing to this site everyday for a year. Next time let's look at how much a person posts before we assume he's a newbie ok?

And I will not be putting the two purples in together. So thanks for that but let's not turn into reefs.org over here.

[BrianD]

Man, talk about a huge chip on your shoulder......

[docmal]

Im not angry brianD Iand I don't have a chip on my shoulder I just wanted to clarify things. I think you are adding a tone to my writing that I didn't intend. I merely wanted to offer some proof to my experiences and knowledge to fend off such generalizations as

hmmm, the infamous "i saw someone else do it, so i know i can". that brood [broad?] statement is usually offered on a regular basis by hobbiest attempting something that should not be done. i guess it eases thier mind; making them think it's OK.

from a previous post.

[hcs3]

thanks, docmal, for your resume. what it shows, however, is that you should have known the answer to your question before you even posted it.

whether a newbie or not, the advice is the same. sohal's shouldn't be in 6' or smaller tanks. yes, that is my opinion. yes, it is conservative. no, i cannot or should not force my opinion onto you. howeever, when dealing with the life's of animals, i would hope we all error on the side of caution.

The fact remains is I have quite a few posts and am a regular here, and I just thought I should be treated with a little more regaurd than some newbie.

newbie or not, everybody at RC is treated the same. we don't discriminate against anybody, period.

I have yet to see an unhappy fish that is fat and disease free. Isn't that the definition in our hobby of happy?

i guess everyone can define "happy" in their own terms. personally, i wouldn't say a fish that is "fat and disease free" is happy. it would be much easier if fishes would smile or frown, but they don't. in my view, the only "happy" sohal tang is the one still on the reef.

most experienced hobbiest cringe anytime bob fenner is brought up. reason being is he is somewhat regarded as an authority in this hobby (someone please tell me why?) and unexperienced hobbiest tend to take what he says as gospel. but what he speaks is frightening. adding 3 purple tangs into a 125g is cruel and unusaul punishment. however, bob has different motives now. being partners with FFE, his interest is like any toher LFS, they want the sale. so his response doesn't surprise me a bit.

Direct quote from Scott W. Michael who used to own Animal Talk Aquatics where I worked for 2 years (now he writes fish books). "I kept a vlamingi tang very happy in a 135 by not overdoing the rock and other livestock"

i thik mr. michael must have learned something while caring for this fish. in his own book he states the fish belongs in nothing less than a 180g, and adults in larger aquaria yet. keeping other tangs with a sohal usually ends with the death of the other fish (page 380 - 500+ essential to know aquarium species). i wonder, would adding a single purple tang be considered "over doing the livestock".

I have seen MANY sohals, some very very old. None of which where over 8 to 10 inches. And none where in tanks bigger than a 180.

thank you. you just proved my point. sohals reach 15" EASILY, when properly housed. keeping fish in anything but properly suited aquaria does stunt their growth. for example, my sailfin tang. i purchase small, roughly 2" sailfin tangs for my 75g. in less than a year, they grow to 4 - 5". at this point, their growth slows dramatically, despite the daily feedings they recieve. once at this size, i donate the fish free of charge to a friend with a 180g tank. again, within 1 year, this fish literally explodes to roughly 8 - 9". once again, it's growth slows if not stops. thankfully, my buddy than donates his fish to inland aquatics. IA is nice enough to toss these fish into their 1200g or 2000g systems, and not sell them. and ironically enough, when we go to IA and visit these fish, they are now 14 - 15", full size for a sailfin.

when properly housed, all fish will reach their maximum length.

henry

[DJREEF]

Whoa!!! Did I just cross threads into Aqualink.

DJ

[jimmy n]

Interesting discussion, you all make good points.

I'm still trying to envision how a fish can discern the difference of inches in length or height of a tank ( or are we talking volume alone). Will a tang grow to 15" in a 75 gallon tank plumbed to a swimming pool of a sump?

Jim

[ckeadle]

I have to agree with DJREEF.... no one is going to win this argument it is just going to cause people to be fearful to ask questions...for they will be ripped on by others...

As for your question Jimmy...
from what I understand it is not soley the water volume that causes the fish to "dwarf" if is the swimming space, (which obviously translates to more water volume)that cause the fish not to grow to its full potential... How it discerns that there is a smaller place to swim therefore causing it to grow proportionally to its space is beyone my knowledge and I would love to hear some more on that.

[BrianD]

DJ

As a moderator at AL, I find your comment incendiary and unnecessary. I wouldn't allow comments like that on AL.

Brian

[JohnL]

Originally posted by DJREEF
Whoa!!! Did I just cross threads into Aqualink.

C'mon guys, let's not go there, ok ;)

[JohnL]

Docmal,

Two years ago, I added a 4" sohal tang to my 140 gal 5' reef tank. At the same time I added a 4" desjardini tang.

Today, the sohal is ~9" and the desjardini is ~8".

The sohal paces non-stop back and forth the length of the tank. He also constantly harasses the desjardini. I also have a yellow tang in the tank who behaves just like your purple. The reason he acts that way is because of the sohal.

Bottom line, I made a newbie mistake and would never do it again. I wish I would have listened to the advice of guys like Henry and Brian back then.

To answer you question, quite directly, I don't think your friend's tang stands a chance of surviving in your tank. Your sohal will harass it to death, imo.

[ckeadle]

Sorry...

I was not trying to put down Aqualink at all...I just did not think the argument was going anywhere.

[BrianD]

Thanks, John.

[docmal]

well, I agree with you hcs3 in that I cringe when Fenner is brought up too... However I didn't know anyone else felt that way too ;) Anyway, My examples where not meant to be taken as shots at you or derogatory in any way like brianD has stated. I just grabbed a few quick quotes that I could find and displayed them hoping to show a little less conservative side. After alot of mistakes I too am on the conservative side. Along with all the sohal tangs I've seen I have seen just as many grossly overstocked tanks and been thouroughly disgusted. I guess my point was where were you when I actually asked about my livestock options? I thought I had already been through this stuff and found something I could be happy with. Then this friend of mine wanted to give me his purple, and like I said I told him probobly not, but I would check around. So now I ask this question and get something else entirely. It's frustrating and sometimes I get fed up. I apologize for being so confrontational, and I admit defeat. Apparently I am in the minority opinion and I should just stop fighting it. But I can still disagree, and I know their are many of you out there who keep sohal tangs successfully in tanks smaller than mine.

JohnL, to reply to your answer I don't have a sohal tang yet and I will not have one for a while. I guess I didn't explain well enough. Eventually I will have a sohal but not right when the tank gets set up. This 180 will be an upgrade from my 58 and 55. Basically all I wanted to know is would 2 purples get along in a 180? Which I gather will not work, this is what I had thought I just wanted to make sure because I wanted to help out a friend.

[JohnL]

Originally posted by docmal
JohnL, to reply to your answer I don't have a sohal tang yet and I will not have one for a while. I guess I didn't explain well enough.

I thought the sohal tang was already in the tank. I think Henry and Brian did also. Thanks for helping to get this thread back on track.

[BrianD]

Docmal, where was I derogatory? I asked if you had a chip on your shoulder because of your comment about being treated like an idiot, which I never saw.

Brian

[hcs3]

well, I agree with you hcs3 in that I cringe when Fenner is brought up too... However I didn't know anyone else felt that way too

LOL. yep, i think saying fenner knows fish compatibilty is like saying nick dakin is ahead of his time :)


I guess my point was where were you when I actually asked about my livestock options?

sorry, docmal, but i don't spend nearly as much time on the interent as i have in years past. i don't have the time to see, let alone answer, every post. or even most of them. in most cases i'd hope the community of RC could come together and be responsible enough to assit int he stocking of an aquarium. unfortunitely, if the community of RC agreed that a sohal and purple tang would do fine together, they let you down. :(

I apologize for being so confrontational, and I admit defeat.

i wouldn't admit defeat, as i don't think were were fighting. i think the only loser in this discussion would be the sohal that gets tossed into a 180g, or maybe the purple that gets shreded. the winner would be the purple tang if the sohal never made it into the tank :)

henry

[johnny]

well said everyone.... it was nice to see this thread got back on track :D

Nick

[rockdiver]

edited by administraiton. if you care to add something useful, you may. otherwise, please refrain from slandering the RC community.

thank you

[Edited by hcs3 on 05-25-2001 at 09:44 AM]

[docmal]

BrianD - Sorry about the confusion, I didn't mean YOU where derogatory I meant that you stated I was derogatory, which was wrong... You where talking to someone else in the thread and I didn't pick up on it. I apologize for the confusion. I didn't mean it ;)

[rockdiver]

You edited me who do you think you are ?????????????????
C U LATER
ROCK DIVER

[johnny]

man oh man I so wanna make a wise crack :D

Good job hcs on editing that post.

Nick

[Rin]

I know of a 300 gal FOWLR tank that has a 10" Sohol and a 7" Purple Tang. They generally swim together with no conflicts that I've been able to tell. The Sohol does rule the community, though. At feeding time the Sohol eats first and the others generally avoid him. Even the bamboo and nurse sharks stay out of his way.

And before everyone jumps ME for mentioning the sharks. I don't own this tank and I have no control over what the real owner puts into it. ;) He generally collects fish from other people who can't have them anymore because they have become too big or too aggressive...mostly too aggressive. This one tank you do not put your hand in--especially at feeding time. He knows that the nurse is going to be too big soon.

As for the original question of this thread. I don't know about putting two PTs in a 180. I have seen 3 together (yes, together) in an 8' reef tank. I don't know how many gallons it was--but it was absolutely beautiful.