Can Someone Explain This?????? (<<<< Shocking >>>>)

[Stars360]

Hi guys i have a question for you that i would love to hear someone explain. And just to let you know up front i am being serious!!!

Recently on my left hand i have been having my cuticle peeling up (the cuticle is that lil skin around the nail that sometimes peels up. you know what i am talking about right). and ever since my cuticle has been like that whenever i stick my hand into the water i get shocked but only on the hand w/ the cuticle (left hand) when i stick my right hand in the water i am fine. i have detirmend that it is the custom sea like pc @ 65 watts. The plug of the pc is a three prong, that i placed into a converter (three prong to two prong) so that i can place it in the timmer. I also ruled out that it has nothing to do w/ that because i pluged in the light strip into a regular three prong outlet and i am still getting shocked. Can anyone explain this. because i would love to hear it..thanks so much

brian

[johnny]

Are you sure it's electrocution and not something in the water bothering the skin around the cuticle?

Nick

[Joez]

Good title!

Get a grounding probe if you don't already have one. There is stray current in the water. The cuticle thing? My guess is that you have sensors a little closer to the surface than in the rest of your body (you could try the tongue test [j/k]).

You can measure it with a meter, but if you have heater, PHs, etc. in the tank, then you are adding electrical current.

Imagine how the animals feel; they can't get out of there.

[Stars360]

no, i am sure. it does not feel iratating, it feels like i am getting shocked. and it only happens when the custom sea life power compact is pluged in and running. when i unplug it, i feel nothing. no shock what so ever. i am really baffled..please help

brian

[Norge]

Hi Brian!

Are you sure you are being shocked? It couldn't just be the salt burning in the tiny "cuts" where the cuticle is peeled up?

If you are absolutely sure that it is electric shocks, you could have a minor electric leak in your tank, either from grounding probes or from wire flashovers.... If that is the case, you should check your powerheads and other electric equipment in the tank.

Just my two cents....

Thomas

[Stars360]

well i am sure that i am getting shocked. it feels almost like if you took two nine volt batteries and stuck your tounge to it. now imagine that maybe a lil more powerfull going up your hand. and that is what it feels like. I am also definatly sure that it is comming from the power compact as i said earlier..thanks so much

brian

[Norge]

ooops.... I was a little late with the reply :D

Do you have a grounding probe? And do any parts of the light fixture touch the water or almost touch the water? (Including leg stands.)

Thomas

[DanConnor]

Why do you mention the cuticle business- do you only feel the shock there? Are you touching anything other than the water, such as the light reflector when you get the shock? It is possible to have a powerhead or something bleeding current into the water, but only get a shock when you touch something to complete the circuit (such as reflector)at the same time.

[AHAB]

One of your appliences is leaking a small amount of current into the tank.
The cuticle (the missing one) is more sensitive to any irritatation, due to the exposed nerve and raw tissue.

Find the culpret and or use a grounding probe to bleed off any stray current.

Good luck,
AHAB

[JohnL]

Is this equipment plugged into a functioning GFCI circut? Are you using a grounding probe? Sound like stray voltage to me.

[ReefDream]

Stars360, my guess is that you have stray voltage in your tank from the lights. Skin is our body's greatest protection against the elements, including electric current.

Voltage is a force by which electrical current is induced through something. Resistance is the resistance to this flow. The higher the resistance, the lower the current with a given voltage. We feel CURRENT through our bodies, not voltage per se.

Dry skin is about 100 times more resistive to current as wet skin. And thin skin is probably about one order of magnitude (10x) more conductive than thick skin. Case and point, wet your finger and touch the end of a 9V battery. You'll feel nothing or very little. Now stick the batter to your tongue. You'll feel something. It's not that your tongue is more sensitive since the tips of your fingers are the most nerve-dense region in the body. No, rather the current is greater on your tongue since the skin is thinner and less resistive. The higher current on your tongue between the terminals is what you feel.

The hand with the cuticle peeling up has an area on it by edge of the peeled up cuticle with very thin skin like your tongue and, hence, low resistance. That's why you feel the current induced by the stray voltage with the peeled-cuticle hand but not with the regular hand. The current is flowing up through you to ground at your feet and can be greatly amplified by not wearing shoes or standing barefoot on a wet floot (DO NOT TRY THIS! BELIEVE ME, I AM RIGHT ON THIS ONE!)

What I'd recommend is you try to find the source of the stray voltage. If you cannot find the source, then at least get a grounding probe in the water to ground the tank. Grounding probes are NOT the ideal solution, for they only provide a path for the current. Eliminating the source of the current is the ideal solution because if a fish goes between the source and the probe, it still can get zapped and stressed out. I've read reports of folks putting grounding probes in their main tank only to watch their fish approach the probe and "twitch" from the current. A grounding probe only provides a very desirable route for the current, keeping you safe and maybe--if the probe is placed well--keeping the fish out of the current path.

Fish constantly exposed to sub-lethal stray electrical currents, with or without a grounding probe, often develop other stress-related maladies like lateral line disease. The effect on inverts is less known, but I doubt it's good.

[Edited by ReefDream on 05-23-2001 at 02:39 PM]

[dendronepthya]

That was an excellent post by ReefDream. The main candidates for stray voltage are submersible powerheads, and heaters. One time, I had a visitherm heater that had a crack, and was taking on water! Like everyone before me said, getting a grounding probe is a good idea.

[Oppsea]

For your specific question regarding your cuticle, have also noted the same effect. It is rather common for me due to the some what lackadaisical approach I often seem to have to electricity and water. Things that cause this. One is the dramatically more sensitive nature of your exposed cuticle to any nerve stimulus, the lower skin resistance of you body for an open wound, and the saltwater will cause pain for such a sensitive skin surface.

For the more general info, my usual:
One gets shocked due to a current flow thorough a portion of ones body.
If you touch only one “hot side� no current flow. If you touch a “hot side� and have grounding path through your body, say by standing on or touching something else conducting to ground you get shocked. When you put a both a “hot side� and a “low side� (grounding probe for instance) in a conductive media, current flows through the media. When you displace the media, say by putting you hand in it, current will flow over and to varying degrees though the displacing media, your hand. The above is generalized for DC, AC house power, for RF things get messy. The E-ballast for Florescence operate at much higher than 60 Hz, above 5k Hz, some as high as 30 kHz. This high frequency causes the parasitic capacitance of our body in free space to provide a conduction path for the current if another part of our body touching something at a high potential. In this case, one only needs to touch “one side� of a “hot lead� to get a shock. For very high frequencies it is know as an RF burn and is similar to touching a flame in effect and sensation.

This is exactly why Grounding probes, IMHO, are not always good for the fish. And can, depending upon the exact situation, make the tank much worse for them. For a grounding probe to not cause a worst effect, one wants to put the grounding probe right next to the source of the current. This greatly reduces the current flow through the water elsewhere in the tank. You will likely not see fish there.

Fluorescent light induce a lot of energy into the water due to the high operating frequency and there large capacitance to free space.

Get and use a GFI for at least your lights and a grounding probe. It can and will save your life.

[Reef Developer]

Originally posted by Oppsea
.........
Get and use a GFI for at least your lights and a grounding probe. It can and will save your life.


Can and -will- save your life? Isn't that what the circuit breaker in your house/apartment is for? I know there was a GFCI link recently that talked about all this stuff........ but my impression is that if you have newer (last 15 years or so) circuit breakers then they'll be enough to protect you.

[Stars360]

ok, i apreciate everyones great answers. let me now reply

1 - i have a two plug gfci outlet that has two power strips pluged into. and the light is pluged into the strip

2- I am positve that it is the power compact because when it is pluged in i get shocked whne my hand touches the water, and when my hand is wet frm touching the water and i touch the hood of the power compact (made of metal). And i do not get shcoked when i unplug the power compact.

i am going to try to call up custom sea life and see if they will ship me a new one..thanks so much everyone

keep the answers comming

brian

[Doug]

Hi Reef Developer and [welcome]

[oldduffer]

Stars360
The shock is coming from the PC's. If you read the instructions they say to make sure the ballast is grounded. If the wiring in your home is kinda old, it probably has no ground on it, to eliminate this, you will have to get a ground wire to your elect. recepticle. This is often overlooked. Without a ground to the ballast, the stray current is useing you for a ground. If you plug in a surge protector, it will tell you if the ground is there. Most surge protectors have two lights on them, a green and a red, both lights will be on when you have a ground wire in your recepticle, if only the red lights up, you are not grounded. The easiest way to ground it if you are close to the outside is to drive a 6 foot ground rod in the ground and connect to this, you may need to get an electrician to do it if you are not handy at this stuff. A ground probe will help also, but if you have no ground in the recepticle, they are a waste of time, it also would need to connect to a ground rod.

[twarren]

First question that I can not believe anybody did not ask.

Is the three prong to two prong adapter grounded correctly ?

Most adapters have a wire to attach to electrical ground .

REEF DEVELOPER: IMPORTANT GFCI receptacles and breakers switch off when ANY current goes to ground. Whether trough you or your tank or a short some where else. Most breakers even in new housing are NOT GFCI ! The current electrical code states that circuits only need to be GFCI protected when in wet locations. i.e.. outside, bathrooms, kitchens, garages etc.. Unless a qualified electrician or the builder knew you were going to put a fish tank on that circuit the circuit is NOT GFCI protected.

Please if you have any questions about GFCI please feel free to e-mail me before you electricute yourself.

[Stars360]

well the outlet is in the living room behind a bar, and it is definatly a gfci outlet and was installed my an electrition like five years ago. it has two buttons on it.

as far as the grounding w/ the light. i had to make the three prong into a two prong. but i know that that does not matter because i pluged the actuall three prong into the gfci and i still get shocked. so i dont know what to think

brian

p.s. my surge protectors only have one light to signify if the protector is on or off..

[paranda]

A three prong into a two prong is not properly grounded! On a 110V single phase circuit, when you eliminate the ground you are then only using the neutral to return the current. This is not as quick of a path to ground as a ground lug or you are! This may be why you are getting shocked. Try plugging the lights into a grounded outlet, then use a meter to test for stray voltage.

[JohnL]

Originally posted by Reef Developer
Isn't that what the circuit breaker in your house/apartment is for? I know there was a GFCI link recently that talked about all this stuff........ but my impression is that if you have newer (last 15 years or so) circuit breakers then they'll be enough to protect you.

I guess we failed :mad: That is not true. You'll fry long before the circut breaker pops.

[billsreef]

The metal reflector should be grounded to that third wire (ground wire).

As for the popping circiut breaker issue, I've taken some pretty good shocks without the breakers pop, so please be sure all your equipment is in good order and properly wired.

[Stars360]

you guys have me completly lost w/ all of this grounding stuff, and wiring. any one live in the long island new york area want to come over and show me what you guys mean. cuz i am completly and totally lost.

brian

[Colin]

I'm no electrician, but it seems that an ungrounded reflector could cause that kind of problem.

Stars, is there a wire screwed onto the reflector itself?

--Colin

[jasonchi]

Originally posted by Stars360
you guys have me completly lost w/ all of this grounding stuff, and wiring. any one live in the long island new york area want to come over and show me what you guys mean. cuz i am completly and totally lost.

brian

Which part of LI are you in?

[Salt Creepy]

The GFCI will allow several milliamps to ground before tripping. Death will often occur at 7 milliamps passing through the heart. The GFCI will allow full current between nuetral and hot and that includes anything and anyone in between.

[Edited by Salt Creepy on 05-24-2001 at 09:52 AM]

[Reef Developer]

Originally posted by twarren

REEF DEVELOPER: IMPORTANT GFCI receptacles and breakers switch off when ANY current goes to ground. Whether trough you or your tank or a short some where else. Most breakers even in new housing are NOT GFCI ! The current electrical code states that circuits only need to be GFCI protected when in wet locations. i.e.. outside, bathrooms, kitchens, garages etc.. Unless a qualified electrician or the builder knew you were going to put a fish tank on that circuit the circuit is NOT GFCI protected.

Please if you have any questions about GFCI please feel free to e-mail me before you electricute yourself.

Well, I bought a GFCI....at Home Depot. Will this one do the job? On the other message topic about GFCI's I know some people slammed the ones at Home Depot saying they're cheap and unreliable. I've had fish tanks for years (12+) and never had a GFCI. I've never been shocked, but there's a first for everything . I just never thought I could get fried. Would the level of danger be parallel to the device that fails? Meaning a pump might not do do you in but mh lights would?

Also, I'm going to get a grounding probe. Should I put it in my tank, sump or both (buy 2)?

Originally posted by JohnL
Originally posted by Reef Developer
Isn't that what the circuit breaker in your house/apartment is for? I know there was a GFCI link recently that talked about all this stuff........ but my impression is that if you have newer (last 15 years or so) circuit breakers then they'll be enough to protect you.

I guess we failed :mad: That is not true. You'll fry long before the circut breaker pops.

No no- you didn't fail....I'll go back and finish reading the message topic....Sounds like I missed some important content.

Thanks everyone for your feedback......

[Stars360]

I live in the massapequa are of the island. i could use a hand figuring out about this shocking thing, and also about why i am having a temp problem. the temp of my tank is always around 85-87. thanks guys

brian

[Fishwife]

Hi Stars - Read my signature - it says it all! I thought I was being shocked every time I stuck my hand in the water, quite a jolt. My husband would put his hand in, nothing. I would stick my elbow in - stop laughing - nothing. I looked closely at my hands and I had a bunch of little papercuts all over my fingers.

It really did feel like an electric shock. Now yours might be real but I tend to doubt that only one hand could be involved.

If I'm totally off-base, please forgive - that is just my experience.

Laurie

[SEABUZZ]

star, why not just buy a grounded timer. they sell them at HD for about 9 dollars. their made for outdoors which you should be using anyway. you eliminated your ground. not a good thing.

[55Reef]

Stars360,

I know that I'm jumping in here a little late. But I had the EXACT same question! Cuticle and all. That's really weird!
I thought I was getting shocked also. When I put my other fingers in the water I couldn't feel anything. So I thought it was the salt in the cuticle. I may have to look into this more.

I've keeped FW for 17 years and this is my first SW tank. It has taken some getting used to the salt. I've sometimes have wondered why my arm would itch and scratch. Then I have to remind myself it's the salt in the cuts!

Brian

[Stars360]

hey sea buzz what do you mean by a grounded timmer. you are loosing me.


55 reef that is pretty funny. although i know that it is not the salt that is iratating it because the cuticle is at the top portion of my nail and even then i touch the tip of my finget into the water. i feel it getting shocked and it radiates up to the cuticle. i cand explain it but some other people here are doing a great job

brian

[BlackLab]

Stars... I just read the WHOLE thing, it appears a few posts didn't read everything you said... so it took me a bit to figure out what everyone was saying (i.e. I understand your confusion).

Sounds like:

a) you're SURE it the PC's, because the same hand doesn't feel anything without them on (which means it's not salt).

b) you HAVE tried plugging the PC's directly into a GFCI outlet and still get a shock (which makes the 2 prong adapter irrelevant... not a good idea, but irrelevant).

So, I would say it's a low level leak that you can only feel with the decreased resistance from broken skin. I would see if CSL will replace the unit. I would also test your GFCI outlet, it may not be tripping like it should.

[Stars360]

thanks black lab. i know when it comes to these really long posts a lot of people just skim over it.

ok i called up custom sea life ( on the box it says that there is a 2 year warrenty). after *****ing and complaning to them they said that i could ship it to them to be fixed and if they cant fix it they would replace it. i told them that my concern was that nothing was going to live in my tank for the 1-2 weeks while it was in transit and getting fixed. So after some more *****ing and moaning and some more *****ing. the lady finally said that if i have a credit card they will hold a unit against it and send me out a new unit. and when they recieve the old one and they determined that it was more then three months old that they were going to charge me for the new one. What kind of crap is that. like i said above the box says that there is a two year warrenty. Plus i dont understand how they are going to determine that it is older than three months. i mean i know it is but not by much i have only had it running since late november mid december, some where around there. I just told them three months so they would not think that it was that old. I dont know i dont exactally like there customer service. anyone have any idea what i should do. thanks so much

brian

p.s. how do you test a gfci

[SEABUZZ]

STAR, iTS A 3 PRONG TIMER that you can plug a 3 prong plug into without the 2 prong adapter. you've pretty much eliminated the ground by using the adapter.

[twarren]

Salt Creepy: You are right about the few milliamps that it will allow. But my point there was to stress the importance of using a GFCI protected circuit and not let someone electricute themselves.

Reef Developer: A cheap GFCI is better than no GFCI. IF you are worried about it failing try the test button once a month and make sure that it turns off the circuit.

Also if you are going to DIY make sure you understand the difference between line and load screw terminals. The screws make line are for the wire coming from the circuit panel and the load screws go to other receptacles on the circuit.

[Stars360]

hey guys read my last post and tell me what you think!!!!!

brian

[oldduffer]

Stars
The problem is not going to be your unit, its the way it is hooked up. The ballast has to be grounded. That is the main problem, grounded! You can hook up as many lights as you want and until you get a ground on the recepticle, it is gonna shock you, you are serving as the ground when you touch the water.

[Stars360]

old duffer..yes i understand that but if you read the other posts i told you that i pluged the light directly into the gfci (three prong) and still got shocked. so as far as the ground goes that is no big deal at the moment..

brian