Effects of Panacur

[BrianH]

Hi Randy,

My 50gal. reef tank is currently infested with hydroids. Someone in the seahorse forum suggested using hydrox or panacur to kill hydroids. Do you know if these products will cause harm if used in the main tank? How about if I create a dip bucket and dip each piece of live rock and then return to the tank? The only problem with the dip is that I also need to rid the rocks that my corals are mounted to of hydroids. I wonder if these products will harm corals. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Brian

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Panacur is Fenbendazole, an antiparasite drug, used to kill worms in dogs and horses, for example:

http://www.russiantortoise.org/panacur.htm

I would be very worried that it would kill many organisms in the tank. Could it be more effective on hydropids than anything else? Possibly, but not very likely.

If you are at the stage where you are about to trash the tank, I'd try it directly. If the hydroids are not yet at that point, I wouldn't add it to my aquarium without hearing from lots of folks that they had used it and saw no problems with various organisms in aquaria (not just big ones like fish but small ones like worms).

As a dip? That might work. Rinse the rock real well after the dip.


I don't know what hydrox is, except a cookie!

http://www.spacefem.com/hydrox/

[piercho]

Hi Randy, I have Siganus Lo in my tank that has grown weak lately and has always exhibited symptoms similar to what is described in this excerpt from Scott Micheal (this Month's Advanced Aquarist):If a specimen shows chronic, abnormal distention of the abdomen it may be suffering from an internal infestation of nematode worms of the genus Philometra. Unlike normal toby inflation, the distended abdomen of fish suffering from this infection will be asymmetrical in form and will change shape as the parasites move around. Schleser (1994) recommends introducing Fenbendazole (add at a volume of 1% of the active ingredient) to gelatin based foods to eradicate intestinal worms. When I search on Fenbendazole on the web, the only product I come up with is Panacur. When I try to find Panacur locally, the form they have is liquid. Anyway, this is off the net: Fenbendazole is a benzimidazole anthelmintic, that has broad spectrum, and a wide safety margin.
It binds to 3-tubulin astructural protein that blocks polymerization of tubulin into microtubules, which damages the integrity and the transport function of cells in parasites. The reason behind the wide safety margin is due to its infinity to the parasitic tubules rather than mamilian.
The drug is minimally absorbed after it is given orally. It is metabolized to the active compound oxfendazole sulfoxide and sulfone.
Fenbendazole is excreted in the feces and urine.
So, three questions:
1) Could this stuff be used like Metranidazole, and just treat the entire volume of water in a hospital tank?
2) If treating the water, how would I determine a dosage rate?
3) Could the liquid form be mixed with gell-based food effectively?

This stuff sound fairly safe, maybe safer than Pipzine? On one site, they said no lethal dose had been found in dogs. As well as treating this individual fish, I'd like to develop a treatment protocol for all new fish, including ones that won't take food. So, dosing the hospitol tank volume with liquid Panacur is attractive.

[Boomer]

Randy

I spent an hour checking into the stuff and some other crazzy stuff seahorse people use. I'll post it tomorrow, time to go to bed...............................................

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks,boomer.

I'd certainly defer to Scott Michael or others who know a lot more about fish than I do about whether to use it.

I'd make it into a gelatin food as opposed to treating the whole water column, but I really don't know how this drug gets into fish. You can probably make your own food jello with it inside, but you'll have to account for how much active ingredient is in the liquid.

[Boomer]

Hydrox

Hydrox is a proprietary (= secret) formulation available only from Carol Keen, owner of Fish to the Nth. Its purpose is to kill hydroids. Panacur is most likely the, or one of the, active ingredient(s). She sells the capsules (1 per 5 gallons) at $1 each. It is actually called Hydroxes, it seems and people are just short-cutting it. On one post I got the idea it was a short-cut for Calcium Hydroxide. As one poster said he uses it the same way reefers do on Aiptasia.

It is believed that hydrox is a form of dewormer containing some similar chemical as panacure does. The actual active ingredient of Panacure is fenbendazole, usually 222mg / gram ie 22.2% of the powder is the active ingredient. You need to check the amount of active ingredient,as this has been as low as 15% and as high as 30% - this makes a big difference. Hydrox seems to be a thing of the past being replace by Panacur.

Seahorse's don't even seem to have real dosage for it. It appears to be hit and miss or I used this much, we are doing experiments with it to see what it will kill or not kill. The use of any of these "drugs" in seahorse tanks seem to me not only shaky but scary: :mixed: :rolleye1 Some seahorser's actual just remove things and then "nuke " the hole tank with the stuff.

Some comments of Hyrox/Hyroxes/Panacure/Fenbendazole users, using so called dosage that are suppose to work.


1. Any invert we put in there would die within 2 weeks or less. The molecules of Panacur become incorporated into the live rock and the sand. Once you put it in, you can NEVER get rid of it.
dosed my tank about a year ago with Panacur, and it killed the hydroids, All worms, and all turbo snails...............................dead.

2. I dosed my tank about a year ago with Panacur, and it killed the hydroids, All worms, and all turbo snails. My pods were fine, so were my peppermint shrimp, bumblebee snails and nassarius snails as well as my hermits.

3. The Panacur soaks into the live rock and leeches out into the water even after months of water changes.

4. I did not have any stars, but I think it would probably kill them too

5. Seems fine on seahorses and mushrooms, soft coral dead, hard coral dead, shrimp dead...................dead......................dead .......even Caulerpa dead


Tracy & David Warland, at South Australian Seahorse Marine Services and Chris Burns ( whom I've know for years on RAMR a reef NG says)

Although I have not had a problem with parasites associated with the use of wild plankton, a number of other pests were introduced to the tanks along with the desirable plankton. The worst of these were hydroids, gammarid amphipods, and gastrotrichs. Hydroids were probably introduced as larvae or medusae. Within a few days of introduction, fuzzy colonies could be seen on the walls of the tank. Their stinging tentacles can injure and even kill small seahorses, but they probably do more damage by competing for food. By the time a hydroid colony reaches a few inches in diameter, it can become a serious drain on your plankton supply. Three hydroid genera have been observed in our aquaria: Bouganvillia, Tubularia, and one other, which has not yet been identified. Scraping the colonies off the walls only helps temporarily. Within a few days, numerous new colonies are formed around the tank as a result of fragmentation.

In an attempt to learn more about these hydroids, we began culturing them in separate tanks. After a few weeks of culturing, a tiny nudibranch, identified as Tenellia fuscata, appeared in some of the hydroid tanks. White egg clusters also appeared among the hydroid tentacles. The 6-mm nudibranchs were observed feeding on the tentacles of all three hydroid species. Within about a month of their initial appearance, hundreds of nudibranchs could be seen in these tanks and virtually all of the hydroids had been consumed. Hydroid-eating nudibranchs such as Tenellia have appendages called cerata on their backs. As they feed on their cnidarian (corals, anemones, hydroids and jellyfishes) hosts, they are able to keep the cnidocytes (stinging cells found in cnidarian tentacles) intact. They transfer the cnidocytes into their cerata to sting would-be predators that dare to bite into them. Hopefully, with the help of T. fuscata, hydroids will no longer be a problem in our rearing tanks.


None of these papers even mention such drugs !!!! All the experts more or less say that these treatments of Hydroids or even hydroid problems, has been blown way out of proportion. Some seem to have treated their tanks for hydroids with hydrox and then ask what does a hydroid look like !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused:


Hyrox/Hyroxes/Panacure/Fenbendazole This stuff, IMHO, is very dangerous and should never be in a reef tank, at any dosage what so ever !!!!

[Boomer]

Randy

I'd make it into a gelatin food

Yes, and that is exactly what Scott says ;)

Brian

reef tank is currently infested with hydroids

Are you sure these are hydroids..........pics ?


piercho

But it may not have that at all. There are also internal bacterial infects which look the same, due the the accumulation of ascites fluids. Foxfaces also sometimes go through starvation periods where they may appear to look like this. Got a pic ? Scott is only talking about puffers of the genus Canthigaster sp I would not jump to a Foxface;)

[piercho]

Boomer,
the fish has always had a lumpy gut, especially after eating. Not swollen or discolored, just lumpy like the intesinal tract is pushing out against the abdomen. Normally, its a bottomless pit, but lately its appetite has dropped off and its getting thin. Its become lethargic, rests on the bottom for long periods, breathes abnormally hard. Its true I am reaching for a diagnosis. And I recently introduced a Bangaii into the system after only a 10-day quarantine. That fish refused to eat, stayed near the bottom, and eventually disappeared. So its possible that a disease came in with the Bangaii that the Siganus picked up either through the water or by picking at the carcass.

But putting my Siganus issue aside, I'm still interested in developing a treatment for new fish that would have low toxicity for the fish but target a broad range of invertebrate parasites. Ideally, it could be used in the entire water column (of a hospitol tank) so the dosage could be controlled, and be effective with a short treatment.

[RichardS]

I have used panacur in an attempt to treat glugea on a group of fish I recieved. I think I ended up using about a tablespoon (maybe two, sorry it was a long time ago) of 100mg/ml panacur in 5 gallons of water. I did 6 hr baths daily for two weeks. It did not have any negative effect on the fish and unfortuanately no effect on the glugea either so I ended up putting them down.

For nematodes, Noga recommends...
Prolonged Immersion - 2 mg fenbendazole/l once/week for 3 weeks

Orally - 25 mg/kg of body weight daily for 3 days
or 50 mg/kg of body weight once/week for 3 weeks

[RichardS]

Originally posted by piercho
I'm still interested in developing a treatment for new fish that would have low toxicity for the fish but target a broad range of invertebrate parasites.

You could try my routine which has worked very well for me.

1.) 5 minute FW dip upon reciept. This is to remove flukes, parasitic copepods/isopods. These are more of a problem than most people think. They are always present in substantial numbers in my FW dip buckets following every order from every supplier I have tried.

2.) QT in hyposalinity at SG 1.009-1.010

3.) I also run ionic copper (copper sulfate solution) at .15 ppm on one system that is for fish that are very prone to cryptocaryon such as tangs. I do not care for the chelated copper treatments. For hobbyists I would recommend not using the copper unless it is obviously required. I'm trying to clean up the fish within 7 days so they can be moved to my display tanks before the next order arrives. It is very rare that anything gets past my qt systems following this regime.

IME I do not think it is neccesary to treat preventatively for internal parasites as they are rarely a problem. More often it is intestinal bacterial infections as Boomer said. I've had the best luck treating those with Nitrofurazone/Kanamycin combination.

[piercho]

Richard, thank so much for all the advice on Panacur and treatment in general. Its unfortunate that more dealers aren't as knowledgable and concientous as you. I've bought fish from the "premium" Seattle-area stores at premium prices, only to have to deal with parasitic copepods, cryptocaryon and oodinium once I get them home.

I do dip all my new fish, then keep the fish in a holding tank with live rock for 7-14 days at full salinity for observation. Thats why I don't *think* I brought in oodinium with the cardinalfish. The cardinalfish just refused to eat and over three weeks gradually lost vigor, it was never gasping. But the rabbitfish is weak and gasping again today, resting on the bottom. Yesterday it was better and eating. Its not discolored, its belly isn't abnormally swollen, it just gets lumps in its belly as seen through the sides. At the present time its belly isn't even lumpy, but it hasn't taken in much food lately, either. The gasping doesn't really line up with intestinal parasites, I guess. Like I said, I'm reaching for a diagnosis, and the lumpy gut reference rang a bell. I've never had to deal with disease in the main tank, its always come up while holding the fish.