what size for sharks?

[Josh669]

I have 3 fish only tanks up already, 55, 55,and 75. What I thought would be very,very interesting, and neat looking, would be a shark tank. I know they wont fit in any of the tanks ive got, thats why ive decided to custom make my own, but I have no idea what size tank they would do good in.But I cant afford over a 200 gallon, they should fit in a tank that size, right? I want to put a horn shark, and banded shark, with maybe a lion fish.

[chromis]

If you cant afford over a 200 then dont get a shark, let alone 2 and a Lion. A cheaper alternative might be to make an above ground pond in your basement out of 4 X 4s and a pond liner. Could even add some rays to that kind of setup. Really though a 200 could keep one bamboo but most say that they need bigger(240 or more). And lastly a horn shark is a poor choice. It is a temperate fish that would not fare well in waters suited to your bamboo. The similar looking Port Jackson shark however is a tropical specimen and looks almost the same.

[jimhobbs]

The 200 gallon would have to be long, narrow, and deep{for turn around room}:D

Where exactly were you planning on putting this 10ft tank?...I know If I had plans for this, I'd get in a heap of trouble with the wife for planning on this much wall space;)

See
Sharks need to swim at a "gut" level that no other fish normally needs...i'm sure you've seen them at the LFS in small holding containers; or even display items...Just out of curiousity, what is the MIN sized tank your LFS reccommends?{Remember, he wants to sell you one and he'll make no money on the custom job you would need for this animals health}...My LFS will look you straight on and say '125gal'...Is does no good to argue with him; he'll always have so/and/so to quote. "I've kept one over a year with EXCELLENT results":rolleye1:

Point is, has he studied the animal enough to know WHAT it's normal swimming patterns are; and, does he care about trying to duplicate this environment:eek1:

When our fish stop being disposable objects, and we start to understand them, their care takes on a whole new meaning:)

[smokinreefer]

if you truly want to keep a shark, i suggest you do a search on this and other bulliten boards. there have been a few threads regarding their care and they contain some good info for you.
good luck! and have fun.:)

[O'Man]

Just a thought, wouldn't a shark tank be best if it were round and there were no corners for them to get caught in?

I know that the best wat to keep live bait alive is to have a round or at least oval-shaped tank so the fish keeps swimming.

[OSBrain]

o'Man,

Bait tanks are round because a lot of those fish are pelagic (open water) they would never run into a corner or any hard substrate.

It depends on the shark. But most likely, the sharks we would be keeping wouldn't mind a nice crack to hide in. So I don't think that would be necessary.

Josh669
Don't get a HORN SHARK. I believe their southern range is baja california which is definetly NOT tropical.

Brian

[metamorphis]

I have also been told round tanks are better for most sharks (mostly in reference to pelagic though). But then again you can usually fit a much larger rectangular tank in the same space as a circular one. So which is more important, shape or volume?

[chromis]

Originally posted by jimhobbs

Where exactly were you planning on putting this 10ft tank?...I know If I had plans for this, I'd get in a heap of trouble with the wife for planning on this much wall space;)



Not exactly a tank, more like a pond type of setup. There is a kid over on reefland who has a pond setup with some yellow spotted rays, sharks, a few tangs. When I have the money I plan on building a large tank for a zebra shark but I'll probably have to settle for an epaulette or bamboo. Just dreaming.

[Duncanmurf]

Josh,
I see that you are in Florida. If you are anywhere near Ft Lauderdale then you should stop by JAWZ.net on Broward Blvd. Or go by the web page under the same name. The owner, Harjun has been keeping sharks for years(white tips, black tips,bonnets, etc) with a great amount of success. But, he will tell you that the bigger the tank is (with the right dimensions), the better for the sharks. HTH.

DUNCAN.

[Josh669]

I would build a pond like tank, but a couple of problems, no basement, cause I live in Florida, and no place in my house to put it, where it will look good. What I want to know though, is what size of a tank, most likely I wont be able to afford it now, but id like to eventually, so what size of a tank, rectangular, what are the dementions?

[Josh669]

A 300 gallon should do it fine. Dementions 86x30x27. Its long for sharks, and wide enough for them to turn around, it should be fine. I went to Jawz.net, and the guy there had a shark in a 300 gallon, with a bunch of other fish.

[FishBait]

I someday plan on a shark tank too. It will be 8'x4'x2'. This will support ONE AND ONLY ONE SHARK...a coral catshark (Atelmycterus marmoratus) which is lucky to reach 30" in the wild. This IMO is the only shark I feel can be kept long term in that small of a tank. You very possibly could get a 180gal or similar size to house baby bamboo sharks, but for the record, the smallest of these reach over 4' in length and can grow about 1'/year. If you are asking what size rectangular tank is suitable for sharks, the above mentioned is the smallest size I would recommend for a final home for the smallest specie available.

[chromis]

I checked out Jawz.net's website and was not impressed. Yes those are some nice FO tanks but it is really irresponsible and unintelligent to keep leopard sharks with tropical fish. I would not trust anyones advice about sharks who keeps a leopard in such a small and inadequate tank let alone offers blacktip reef sharks and bonnetheads to aquarists. Fishbait, I applaude you for your planning an adequate tank for your shark and wish more people would follow your example when deciding to purchase sharks. Coral cat sharks are one of my favs too!!

[Josh669]

So a 300 gallon should do it for a shark. I can put other fish in with it, like a lion fish or something right? What about Banded sharks, or leopard shark, or blacktip reefsharks? or stingrays? every fish i buy, is always a baby, i never buy adults or anything, so how bout a baby bamboo, baby stingray, and lionfish in a 300?

[dendronepthya]

I wasn't impressed by that site either. The FAQ was especially poor.

[Josh669]

building a tank this size, which should I use, acrylic or glass? what size sump? range of expense on this tank?

[SawCJack00]

Just some personal experience here. When i purchased my 125 used and showed up to pick it up, the seller had a bamboo shark that "had to go with the tank" I had no intention of ahaving a shark tank, but wasn't going to let him kill the shark either. It as a bout 18" when I got it. I kept it for over a year and it grew to about 30" inches at that time. It also ate about an 8" lion fish. I ended up donating it to a public aquarium where I'm sure it was much happier. Personally I don't think sharks should be kept in any sized aquariums. But that's just me.

[chromis]

Originally posted by SawCJack00
Personally I don't think sharks should be kept in any sized aquariums. But that's just me.
Then why did you donate your shark to an aquarium? Sharks can be kept in aquariums. Many people do not have the knowledge or patience or money to care properly for sharks. But sharks can be kept in aquariums.

[metamorphis]

Yep, definetely no hipacrits here. I mean, we can all trash on someone for keeping a leopard shark with inappropiate tank mates (based only on a couple of pictures), so I guess it's a good thing none of us has ever broken any "rules" before. I also find it very interesting how people with absolutely no personal experience with sharks know everything about them and their care requirements.

[Josh669]

well then, what can I put in with a bamboo, or some type of shark? im just courious. thats why im here asking questions, because id like to learn more about them from people who have done it personally

[metamorphis]

Josh,
What do you want to keep with a bamboo shark? Obviously the first rule is make sure the fish is too big to fit in the shark's mouth. It has been my experience that bamboo sharks are pretty peaceful, and you actually need to worry about other fish picking on you shark more than the opposite. I have or know of others who have kept bamboo sharks with large volitans lions, spotted rays, and various other tropical sharks (although leopards like colder water and routinely get to 4'-5'). Your biggest concern should be the bioload your tank can handle.

Before you tackle this project, you should really read "Aquarium Sharks & Rays : An Essential Guide to Their Selection, Keeping and Natural History," by Scott Michael and Martin Moe. It is a new book and full of good information. Asking about sharks and rays on forums like this will usually only yield a bunch of emotional responses and conflicting inexperienced opinions.

[SPC]

Metamorphis, I have no experience keeping a shark, but I will say that I have seen them in a fish tank, and I have seen a Lion in a cage, and common sense told me that something was not right.
Steve

[smokinreefer]

get a stingray, very beautiful, interesting and a perfect mate for your shark! :) JMO & IME.

[metamorphis]

SPC,
Exactly my point. You know relatively little about sharks (or cats for that matter), but that doesn't stop you from condemning people who keep them. Imagine someone coming in here proclaiming all of us to be evil people because we are destroying the natural reefs and putting fish into a torture chamber in which they are deprived of their natural conditions in form or another, stressed to the point of death in many cases, slaughtered in the import trade, and then often killed as a result of our own ignorance. All just so us greedy nature killers can have something nice to look at. Seems to be perfectly good "common sense" to people who know nothing about reefkeeping (peta, hsus, AZA). Your opinions are admittedly based on emotion, and that's good enough reason for me. Don't keep sharks. I just don't think seeing one in a aquarium qualifies you as a moral authority on the subject.

[Niven]

Come on guys, can't we all get along:D I saw a shark tank setup at an LFS near here. They said it was perfect. It was a 40g with a HOB filter. If they can do it, we can do it:(

Anyone see that motercycle show on Discovery or TLC or the travel channel. This guy had at least 2, but I think 3 black tipped reef sharks in a 180g. It was preety sad to see these sharks only move to get food and then run in to the glass when they tried.

If I were you, I'd try to build a cement block pond as large as you can.
Niven

[Terra Ferma]

I also saw that show, and although it was pretty sad, I though the tank was a little bigger than that. Anyone know how big that tank was?

[SPC]

Metamorphis, my opinions are based on common sense for me. I have a 180 gal reef tank and would never think of housing an open water fish like a Tang in it, I dont think it is big enough. I personaly only keep animals that would live their entire lives in an area that is the size of the home I can provide them. My "common sense" tells me that I would not want to be confined to a closet my entire life, so I dont live in one. And yes, the PETA people etc... would be right about some of their claims. I see people everyday who purchase fish and corals who have no idea how to keep them, these animals are doomed, all for the gratification of some self centered person. If you think that you and I are the norm in aquarium knowledge, just spend some time in an LFS and I think you will see that we are probably less than 5%.
I will say however, that you dont need to be an expert on sharks or cats to know what environment they come from and something about their natural hahitats. My common sense tells me that when I see a bird in a cage that something is wrong with that picture, birds fly, bird in cage cant fly.
I personally dont keep marine animals for there colors or to impress people. I like to set up as close a natural environment as I can and then observe the animals in this natural environment. I am sure that most people who look at my tank cant understand it, " where are all the fish, are you going to get more fish?"
These are just my feelings on the keeping of marine animals and I am not trying to influence anyone to do anything.

[Nagel]

Just something to think about from the jawz.net FAQ

Your tank will cycle faster with start-up fish (IE: Grouper or inexpensive fish) these fish will probably die, yet it is okay.

Yet it is okay for WHO? I certainly don't think that poor fish who is playing kamikaze pilot to cycle your tank thought it would be okay. Just think, if this is what they preach, then just HOW GOOD is the rest of their knowledge / ethics?

[SteveJ]

OK, I'll jump in since I have experience housing sharks. The bamboo shark CAN be kept with other fish. A snowflake or ray would be good tankmates. Mine doesn't touch fish that could easily fit in its mouth. Hermits are snacks. You won't be able to keep them for long. They get very tame. You can hand feed them and they will actually swim over looking to be pet. They will recognize you over time. The leopards are cool water and very active so not a good choice. Black tips, and white tips are also not good choices as well as nurse sharks and wobbegongs. For the home aquarium, look at the epaullete, the bamboos, or the true catsharks such as the coral cat and the marbled catshark. The catsharks stay relatively small. About 24 inches. The bamboos and epaulletes will reach about 36 inches. You can house these 4 types in a 200 gallon with a sandy bottom, some LR for shelter, and open swimming areas. Only one shark to a tank. For a 200 I would add a ray, an eel, and either a coral or marbled cat. Here is a pic of mine. Not the best pic but just had to insert it.
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/017/m3/Qx/AJ/4k10305.jpg

[SharkMan]

Oh guys, you don't have to get those big mean sharks for your tanks. After some genetic engineering we've been able to reduce the mature size of these beasts as well as program in a more mild disposition:D Below are some pictures of a few of them, I apologize that the pictures are not as high of quality as I would like, but I think they give you a good idea of what to expect.

http://www.phinsup.com/images/products/312.jpg
Sharkeous Maximus Plasticus Cuteous – This guy only gets 6.5" long MAX!!! Perfect for that little 5 gallon tank beside the bed.

http://www.stuffedtoydepot.com/B00000IRV2.gif
Sharkeous Notrealeous Cuteous – These guys get 12-16" long, so you'll need at least a 40 gallon tank, but they're really playful so it's well worth the extra expense!

http://www.stuffedtoydepot.com/B00000K2G5.gif
Stuffedious GetRealeous Whaleous Dumbous - For those interested in keeping a whale in your tank, who can resist this gorgeous orca whale engineered to only reach 12" max! Careful though, this guy's a real jumper!:D We recommend a 29 gallon tank for this monster.

http://www.stuffedtoydepot.com/B00001NFRO.gif
Stupideous Beautifeous Biglipseous NosuchFish - For those that want a fish with a sense of humor, this guy is definately for you! Granted they do get about 14" long or so, so you need At Least a 20 gallon tank, but I guarantee you've never heard a fish tell jokes like this one!:D


Perhaps these would align more closely with both your available income & desire to keep such an animal in such a cramped environment?:D You could potentially keep all four of these beautiful specimens in a 75gallon tank with adequate filtration. I recommend putting several large Whisper filters on the back of the tank and a single seaclone skimmer for adequate filtration. As for feeding, we recommend one small dog or two small cats a week. Any more than this and you'll have to add a 2nd seaclone skimmer. I hope you find the above information of use, please let me know if I can be of any further help.

SharkMan:D

[jimhobbs]

LOL:D

[dendronepthya]

That is beautiful!

[SteveJ]

Why is it that whenever someone asks for info regarding sharks people who know NOTHING about their reqiurements feel compelled to reply? There are 750 different species of sharks. Not all of them are what you would typically envision as the shark stereotype. A bamboo, epaulette, or one of the catsharks CAN be kept in a 200 gallon tank. The decor and filtration just needs to be designed around the sharks needs. Not all sharks swim constantly. The ones I mentioned as good candidates use their fins to "walk" over rocks and across the sand. These animals spend their lives crawling thru tight spaces on the reef. They are also sedentary and will typically spend most of their time just lying on the substrate. They are the only sharks that would do well in the home aquarium. The people who say that these cannot be kept successfully either have no experience with them or did not provide correctly for them.
The 200 will be fine for an elasmobranch.

[jimhobbs]

Go back and READ the post above by sharkman...It's FUNNY:D

We allow humor and encourage diversity of opinions; when someone posts with a little of both, we try to ENJOY it;)

Have fun guys!

[SPC]

SHARKMAN
I have a question if you dont mind. I noticed that the Stupideous species (you know, the one that tells jokes) needs a tank of 20 gallons, well here is my problem. All I have right now is a ten gallon with only one small tang in it. I plan on moving the Tang to a larger tank, 29 gallon, as soon as I get some extra money. Would you leave the tang in the 10 and put the Stupideous in the 29, or put both in the 29, or the Stupideous in the 10 and the Tang in the 29? I am going to go ahead and get the Stupideous now and put him in with the Tang (did I mention I will be getting a bigger tank in the future?), I am sure they will be ok together till I get my new tank. Also does the Stupideous eat the same thing as a Tang, I dont want to have to buy two kinds of food.
Thanks Mr Sharkman, try not to get bitten.
Steve

[SharkMan]

Hello SPC, good question! I think if you get them small, with a future bigger tank in mind for when they both grow, then yes they should be fine for the time being. While the Stupideous species is known from time to time to eat veggie-based foods, it prefers a diet of cat, dog, & the occasional treat of water buffalo. So you will probably need to buy some additional food. The biggest problem I see with these two fish is the well-known fact that tangs simply have no sense of humor (when's the last time you heard a yellow tang tell a knock-knock joke?). They have been known to throw fruits & vegetables at Stupideous species, specifically tomatoes if they can get their fins on them. If the Stupideous refuses to relent in it's joke-telling, you may end up seeing the tang go carpet surfing. So as you can see, there could be some compatability issues here. Hope this helps, and I appreciate your concern, I always make sure to rub the sharks' bellies first to put them to sleep before I start working on their tanks;)

SharkMan

Originally posted by SPC
SHARKMAN
I have a question if you dont mind. I noticed that the Stupideous species (you know, the one that tells jokes) needs a tank of 20 gallons, well here is my problem. All I have right now is a ten gallon with only one small tang in it. I plan on moving the Tang to a larger tank, 29 gallon, as soon as I get some extra money. Would you leave the tang in the 10 and put the Stupideous in the 29, or put both in the 29, or the Stupideous in the 10 and the Tang in the 29? I am going to go ahead and get the Stupideous now and put him in with the Tang (did I mention I will be getting a bigger tank in the future?), I am sure they will be ok together till I get my new tank. Also does the Stupideous eat the same thing as a Tang, I dont want to have to buy two kinds of food.
Thanks Mr Sharkman, try not to get bitten.
Steve

[Doug]

Hi Sharkman and [welcome]

Doug

[SawCJack00]

Chromis, before flaming me for giving my shark to an aquarium, you might want to check where I'm from. Minnesota doesn't have too many oceans around last time I checked. It was the best available option for the wellfare of the animal in question. I'm not a hypocrite and would never have another shark in a home aquarium again...and as I said before that's just me!

[metamorphis]

SPC,
Let me make sure I'm understanding this right- you pull animals out of their real natural environment and put them in tiny glass boxes with artificial everything so you can observe their "natural" behavior in a natural environment?? That's a first. You are certainly better than all of us immoral reefkeepers who buy animals mostly because we enjoy their looks.

You don't need to be an expert on sharks, cats, or birds to know a thing or 2 about their natural environment. However, captive care is inherantly different and much more complex than trying to replicate a certain natural environment. So all captive birds need to fly now too? That certainly goes against the millions of the birds that eat well, breed consistantly, and show every sign of perfect physical and psychological health without flight capability. So for most people, common sense dictates that a lot of birds obviously don't need to fly.

SawCJack00- So keeping fish in aquariums is ok, but only the species you deem acceptable? You are a hypacrite by every definition of the word.

Steve,
If you ask me, everyone trashes shark keepers because it is a very trendy thing to do. It's a really easy way to covertly proclaim "look how good I am!" Don't even need to know anything about sharks or how to keep them. The dirty word is all that's required. On some level or another, we all realize that we are having a negative impact on natural reefs, however small. Berating shark keepers reinforces psuedomorals by means of dissassociation from the "bad keepers." Welfare recepients, criminals, and animal keepers of every type do the same thing. It's human nature. The only cure is education. It's too bad most people don't want to learn. I can talk someone's ear off all day telling them that bamboo sharks are specially adapted for life in small spaces, are sedentary, benthic fish by nature, and most get nowhere near the 4' size as proclaimed by almost every written source. They know that it's a shark, and that's all they want or need to know.

[Breef]

##mn,I jumped on this thread lookin to find some of the more scearce people in the hobby with 1000 and greater size tanks but heres all this #$%%#& going on. Sometime I think all you people keep your computers with you down at the pub.I personally don't drink very much. But I have seen quite a number of reef sites with tanks in the 2000 gal range and they aren't mostly glass. I do know the one that the Moody Gardens has that is several hundredthousand gals has a number of nice sharks in it and it also has shouls of reef varietys of fish. I know yellowtails goodly numbers of angels nice numbers of huge rabbitfish and live corals.Anyone ever been there?

[SPC]

Metamorphis, thanks for the compliment, I do try to be better than immoral reefkeepers. As far as birds not needing to fly, I dont need to walk either, but it sure is nice. I can still eat and sleep and reproduce, but I sure do like to walk.
Steve

[BurnNSpy]

The ocean is the right size I believe.

BurnNSpy

[Josh669]

ok, well, lets keep it down. let me ask another couple of questions, can a bamboo, stingray, and eel all go together? can they all go in with coral? or just live rock? does the ground have to be sand? or can it be crushed coral, or some substrate or something like that?

[FishBait]

Ok...before I say another word I have a confession. I have kept sharks in the past...2 banded bamboos and 2 coral catsharks (not all at once). I started this hobby w/the sole intention of keeping a shark, I've loved them since I was a child and I love them now. I too knew that my 90 gal was far too small for them (at adult size) and the reason I lost them was not the tank size, but from constantly switching sandbeds (again I knew very little about saltwater). Having said this, I have come a long way, and have learned very much. I still plan to try one again, and I feel others CAN do so, however I feel it is extremely important that one learn about them. I am currently working on a marine biology degree and hope to work on becoming an elasmobranch specialist. I have studied sharks since I could read a book and have talked with numerous shark experts. I do feel that I have a good foundation of knowledge on them so I really hope you take my advice to heart.

If you want to keep a shark, that's perfectly fine with me, just provide it with the best care is all I ask. If you want to keep any Hemiscylliid shark (epaulletes/bamboos) the be prepared to keep an animal that can live over 20 years and grow to about 4' or better. They will need a large enough tank not only to provide enough space, but to help keep wastes diluted and maintain good water quality. If you wish to keep true catsharks, again give them what they need. These sharks grow to about 24-30" and also live for 15-20yrs. Please realize that keeping just these animals is challenge, and I strongly feel that any tank smaller than 8'x4'x2' can be pushing it. If you can manage a system that can meet these animal's requirements, go for it.

As for tankmates, like I said it is hard enough to keep sharks by themselves, let alone add others to them. As was stated, it is often the shark that becomes the victim rather than its tankmates. Usually sharks (at least the ones in the hobby) tend to leave alone anything they cannot fit in their mouths. Often times that is hard to judge, as some species can swallow animals you'd have never thought possible. Eels, rays, and lions will live quite peacefully with a shark, so long as none are big enough to be eaten by the shark, and vice versa.

I understand that many people have kept sharks in smaller aquariums than I've suggested, but how long have they been there? How big were they? I'm sorry, but 36" is not quite fully grown for some of the sharks suggested here, and 5 yrs is not a long time at all for these animals, as I'm sooo often told by others at my store. If you are going to get a shark, again I say FINE, just be sure to give an adequate home. For those who feel sharks should not be kept period, I say FINE to that too, but bear in mind that they CAN be maintained if taken care of the way they need to be.

[SteveJ]

metamorphis
Well said. I get a little hot when people criticize someone for trying to research sharks BEFORE they buy one. Not all sharks are the same but for some reason they all get steroetyped.

Josh669
The bottom should be sand. CC will irritate the sharks stomach. They spend a lot of time lying on the sand and walking across it. LR can be used to make some type of cave for the shark. Make sure the structure is secure otherwise it will fall and crush the shark. Keep the tank covered. Sharks are jumpers. Like metamorphis said, it's not will the shark be compatible with tankmates but whether they are compatible with the shark. Go with crustacean eaters for the eels like snowflakes, zebras, or a chainlink. Not fish eating eels. They will eat the shark. A ray would be fine. The open sandy area will benefit both the shark and ray and the LR will provide refuge for the eel. Corals.....hmm.....maybe some shrooms. No SPS. The shark will crawl all over the rockwork and possibly hurt itself on corals. Not to mention knock them over.
Have you considered a plywood/glass tank? You could build your own 500 gallon for less than an AGA 200 with the stand. The biggest expense is the glass panel for the front but even that only runs a little more than $200. Everything else is available at Home Depot.

[metamorphis]

SPC,
You do need to walk. Your overall health would certainly decline very quickly if you were kept from doing so. The same can't be said for a lot (not all) of flightless birds. Same goes for living in a closet and all the other anthropomorphic analagies you can think of. People have different care requirements than other animals, and constantly putting yourself in their shoes is not a good way to analyze the quality of care. We need to meet their specific needs, not ours.

[Q-ball]

Hiyas...Before I toss in my .02, I wanted to remind everyone that the whole point of this board is to share all of our views on this. While you may not believe an opposing view is right, at least respect the fact that they have the right to have it;)
That being said, here's my take on it. IMO...no, a 200g tank is not big enough for any of the creatures (except the lionfish:)) being mentioned in this thread. As babies & juveniles...sure, prolly is. But anybody thinking that a banded shark will not reach 48" in captivity is just not facing facts. I've personally seen banded sharks that were hatched in captivity that were ~45" long, so I don't think seeing them get to 48" is that much of a stretch. Granted, I had to take the shop owner's word on that shark, but he had told me that a customer had hatched it a few years (I think he said 3???) earlier from the egg sack he'd bought there, & had to return it when it outgrew the tank he had it in. I personally don't have a problem with keeping any of these animals given the proper care as mentioned before. My opinion of a properly sized tank is one in which the animal can turn around in without bumping into the sides of the aquarium. Ex - Cat shark reaches 30" (give or take). Tank imo for this shark should be 48" wide, and at least 96" long. Even though they don't swim much, they do need room to stretch out a bit. This is alot of tank, I think FB & I figured out that a 24" deep tank like this would be ~480 gallons or so. Definately not something to be taken lightly.
Ok, so maybe you're saying "I'll keep the fish til it's too big for my aquarium, then I'll sell it..." Ok, all fine & good. I can't imagine raising a puppy for a year or two then just giving it away, but that's me. But here's some things to consider... If you think the local aquarium will take it, think again. They get requests like this all the time, & the last few times I've been to a Nat'l aquarium (Baltimore) they didn't have one banded shark. So that rules out public aquariums for the most part. Next option would be private sale. How many people do you know with tanks that large? Assuming you don't know anyone with an empty 300-400g tank sitting around empty waiting for your shark, this means placing an ad in the paper & hoping to find someone to buy the shark. What are the odds of that? Last option I can think of is giving it back to the lfs. Most lfs's simply don't have tanks setup big enough to handle this animal, and honestly, how many of them are going to be able to properly care for them anyhow?
I'm not going to sit here & say "You shouldn't keep sharks, it's immoral to keep them locked up in these glass boxes like this" If I believed that, I'd have to give away all my other fish (& my cats for that matter) and that ain't gonna happen. All I'm saying is appropriate care needs to be taken into consideration & I don't believe a 200g tank is appropriate. I've known FishBait for a few years now, I was there when he lost 2 of his sharks, and I can tell you that the only time I've seen someone hurt like that was when someone loses a favorite dog that they've had in the family for years, or something similar. I don't think anyone in this thread is in this hobby without feeling for these animals. I don't know if I'll keep a shark in the future, but I can tell you that if I do so, my wife's gonna have to "ok" a 480+ gallon tank just for 1 cat shark to live in.
I got really long-winded here, and I didn't even completely explain myself, but I think you get a good idea of how I feel on this subject. Healthy debate is a good thing, we're talking about animals' lives here. Let's just keep it professional & not stoop to those levels, ok?;)

Chris

[Al]

You shark keepers have such a sense of humor!

fishbait - you have killed four sharks and plan to get another. The reason for this? Oh, yeah. You love them.

[SawCJack00]

Metamorphosis, you need to look up the definition of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy - A show or expression of feelings or beliefs one does not actually hold or possess. I never said that it was OK to keep one species in an unnatural environment (aquariums) but not another. I simply stated that I don't think the needs of one (sharks) can be met in that environment, while the needs of others (the organisms I keep) can be met. I also stated that it's my opinion (based on my experience). You do not present a convincing argument for the keeping of sharks in the home aquaria. I'll be signing off from this thread since it has lost it's value with the exception of Sharkmans comments :)

[FishBait]

Well I knew it would only be a matter of time until someone jumped on me for having lost sharks in the past and yet still admit to going for it again :( However I do not blame anyone else for feeling the same way. I decided to admit my faults because I did not feel right telling people NOT to get sharks for smaller aquariums after I've done so myself (I believe the word hypocrite comes to mind). And yes, I feel horrible about what I did then, but have learned from my mistakes, which is why I so strongly advocate that people really give adequate dimensions for these animals (even tho the loss of my sharks was not due to a lack of knowledge of them nor tank size). I bet I'm not the only one here with shameful fish losses in the beginning. It would be nice if we all knew exactly what to do when first entering the hobby, but that is not ever going to happen. I do not wish to get into a defensive battle with anyone, as that's not going to get us anywhere. As for FINALLY getting the question at hand:

First of all as I and others said so many times, make sure you have plenty of room (again not only for room, but keep wastes dilute). A shark that constantly makes contact with the glass will develop large callouses that can erupt over time and become infected, so they need plenty of turn around room (which a STANDARD 200gal tank cannot provide this). The suggestion about CC is well recieved, not only can it irritate the skin and lead to bacterial infections, but incidental ingestion of smaller pieces can lead to tears in the digestive tract. Smaller grade aragonite or sand is best. Using live rock is perfectly suitable, just be sure it is stable, several of the Hemiscyllid species are known for digging and as was stated earlier, it can topple and crush the sharks. Large groupers, triggers, puffers, and angelfish are not good tankmates, as they can constantly harass the shark, in many cases their eyes have been picked off and are left to lead a blinded life. The small-fish/invert-eating eels of the Genus Echidna (snowflakes, chainlinks) are good tankmates for sharks, as are the majority of ray species. But again these are all large fish and need plenty of space as well. As for feeding...fresh clam meat, shrimps, chopped fish (marine of course), and krill are suitable foods. Newborn bamboos will also relish feedings of live black worms. However many captive sharks do not maintain certain vitamins in their systems so adding supplementals to their diet is also advised. You asked about putting them in w/coral, I prolly would not. While during the day these species are quite inactive, they can get peped up during feedings and at nite, causing chaos towards innocent sessile inverts.

I hope you realize that you are considering taking on a huge responsibility. They are alot of work and need alot of attention to make sure they are healthy. Again I plead that if this is something you truly wish to try, then do not skimp on expenses, cut corners, or take it on too lightly.

[Al]

well now, fishbait, you didn't react to my note with the hostility I expected. Tell you what though, seeing your track record with what you love, I would have preferred seeing that you were enraged.
On the deaths of your sharks - You feel horrible? Is that as unpleasant as dying in a container with insufficient space to turn around in?
That, my friend, is the definition of shameful death of an animal in your charge.

[Edited by Al on 05-23-2001 at 11:53 AM]

[FishBait]

I don't disagree w/u at all. I do feel remorse, shame, anger, and sadness that I did such an injustice to these gorgeous animals (even tho they did not die from a lack of space). I wish very much that I could go back in time (taking w/me what I know now) and erase those first few attempts of mine, but I can't, which is why I try to right my wrong by making others aware of their needs. However, I do feel that given the right care they can have a good survival rate. If you wish to think of me as a fish killer, unaware of my haneous crimes, by all means do so, I obviously just stated I was, but please do not make it seem that keeping such animals is an impossibility and a means for thinking ill of anyone who tries. It can be a successful venture if all the precautions are taken.

[Al]

Fishbait, I have to respect anyone that will come back after the response I gave you.
But don't you think that any talk of "how to do it" in this subject will only perpetuate this irresponsibility? Tell me, how many sharks have you seen for sale in pet stores? And how many 500 gallon tanks have you seen for sale in these same stores?

[zerrez]

All you guys, especially AL, need to get a grip on reality. Its like a book, if you dont think you will like it, hey dont read it. If you dont wanna see it, then dont. If you dont like it then dont buy one. If you dont like porn, dont go into the porn place. etc etc etc.

Now if I like it, and you dont. Then keep your opinions to yourself. You can tell me the facts, but dont get all emotional and tell me how bad a person I am because I like blue and you dont. No one, even you, is perfect.

The guy asked a question, give him some factual answers, with logical thought and then maybe you can help him. Flaming him with your "expert emotion" doesnt help any of us. If you cant give respectful thoughtful helpful insight into a thread, then dont read or post to it.

Im sure we ALL have killed our share of salt water fish. If anyone was in the hobby even 10 years ago, if you had a fish live 6 months hey you were doing good. We have ALL killed our share. None of us on purpose, and we all had good intentions, we just didnt have enough knowledge.

Thats what the guy was asking. If he needs a 2000g tank to do good then tell him that and why. Dont flame him for asking. He DIDNT say im going to buy a 20g and put 3 sharks into it.

Get the idea?

Sorry, but my two cents and im tired of seeing people get flamed for asking questions. Thats why we are here to learn and help other learn.

[Breef]

Both you Al and Fishbait hit on pertinent points,it only brings to the forefront why there is a definent need or necessity of there being a more responsible control over the sale of certain organisms that are available. It seems this is only true in the realm of sportfish and dangerous species such as parana.And in these cases only partially.

[FishBait]

I completely understand what you're saying, and this is the reason I absolutely refuse to allow my boss to get in ANY kind of shark and have advised STRONGLY against their keeping by all of my customers. With every bit of info I give on how to maintain them, I am always stressing large tanks, and yes 99% of the time the person cannot provide that. However, after 4 yrs of lfs employment, I've learned that if people want something bad enough, they will either search in and out until 1 person out of 100 says, "yes it can be done" or they simply go against all notions of "keep away" and get it regardless. This also angers me very much, and all I can do is offer some info so that the person can at least make a stab at it. As I said, I have a strong passion for these animals and it pains me to watch them get purchased by someone who knows nothing of their requirements. I obviously cannot stop the sale of these animals, so if they are going to suffer in the hands of someone who is determined to have one, should I not at least give them a means of providing info on them, giving it a chance at a half-decent existence?

[Joez]

High Praise, FishBait, for your ability and manner in communicating!

[SteveJ]

I lost my first shark due to it jumping out. I didn't have the tank covered. A careless mistake on my part. I had the egg for 3 months and 7 months after hatching, I found it on the floor. This could have been prevented. My newest hatchling is in a covered tank. People can keep certain types of sharks in captivity for a very long time. The bamboo has lived for 20 years in an aquarium. You need to have adequate filtration and space. Along with a cover. Feeding the shark formula frozen foods is one way to provide vitamins for the shark. Another would be to soak foods in selcon. Don't get me wrong, it is expensive to house a shark but that is only if you do it properly.
As far as going to a LFS for a tank. Don't. It is too expensive. Go to Home Depot and get 1 inch thick plywood. Coat it with non-toxic epoxy paint and seal it with silicone. Any glass shop can cut a 1/2 inch thick piece of glass for the front panel. You can have a 500 gallon tank for less than 1 dollar per gallon when you build it yourself and that includes scrap wood when you make a cut wrong. People still attempt to keep Gonipora in their tanks. We know nothing about what is needed to keep them alive for 10 years but they are still bought. Bamboo sharks have been kept for 20 years. Everything just needs to be tailored around the shark in order to keep it long term.

[JohnL]

Originally posted by Al
Fishbait, I have to respect anyone that will come back after the response I gave you.

Al, you are relatively new here so maybe you are not aware of our no-flame policy. Feel free to debate any issue you like but do not start making personal attacks. By your own admission, your response was out of line.

Let's keep this thread civil, folks, ok ;)

BTW, I heard Scott Michael speak recently and he has a new book dedicated to Sharks and Rays. He said that there are a few species of sharks that can be kept quite happy in a large home aquarium (180+ gals).

[Al]

zerrez, I suggest you get a grip on reality yourself (i.e., read my posts, and fishbait's responses) before you fire off your opinions.
Johnl - as you will.

[Breef]

Al,consider this analogy,if I personally disagree totally with murder{possibly in any}and thereby do not in any form or fashion {at least by my actions} try to keep my attentive actions away from.I do not when someone wants to discuss a certain murder mistery that came on tv,discuss the fesibility of euthanasia being morally right or wrong.I attempt to the best of my ability to endorse the conserns I have for ending life in any way.

[Breef]

Also Al,don't you see the irony in zerrez's post. He is acually out and out doing in his post exactly what he is telling you not to do. Now that is irony in its most pure state.

[Al]

breef, I did see this in zerrez' post. I thought it best not to point it out - didn't want to get into a 'no, you are' exchange.

[Breef]

Situations are usually most considered when brought to light by the observations of an outsider.

[Flatlander]

Of course we have all made mistakes. That does not mean we need to continue.

My own personnel belief, is that nothing large should be kept in our tanks. Thats my opinion, after 25 years of keeping all kinds of aquariums.

Fir instance, just because I purchased lps, or other non-propagated corals in the 80,s, is no excuse for doing it now.

Although it needs to be stated correct, views such as these are becoming more common by the mail I get and need to be seen on the boards, even though a very small percentage of aquarists read the various boards.

Sorry for posting on your shark thread, as I have no comment on it, I just wanted to post the above because of the other views posted on this thread. Thanks.

[SteveJ]

This link is to an article written by Scott Michael regarding keeping sharks in the home aquarium.
http://www.reeftectonics.com/shark_keeping.htm

[Josh669]

ok, well i have a few more questions, if i may. since im using LR, i wouldnt need a wet/dry filter, only a sump and skimmer, right? how big of a sump for a 300 gallon? anybody have a great set of plans for a half wood, half glass tank?

[SteveJ]

For the tank go to home depot and pick up 1 inch thick pieces of plywood. You will need 6 pieces. The bottom and top pieces should be 8 feet long by 4 feet wide. The front and back pieces should be 8 feet long by 3 feet wide. The side pieces will be 3 feet long by 46.5 inches wide. You will also need a 1/2 inch piece of glass that measures 3 feet high by 94.5 inches wide. Assemble the wood pieces(bottom, front, back, and sides) as a box using 3 inch drywall screws placed 3 inches apart. Use wood glue to attach the pieces as well. After you have the box (except for the top) completed, use wood putty to fill in the spaces. Cut out the front section where the viewing area will be. Leave 6 inches around the diameter. Sand it all down and paint using a NON TOXIC 2 part epoxy paint. Make sure the area is WELL ventilated. After everything has dried for at least 48 hours, do some touch-ups. Run a bead of silicone down all the seams. Place the glass in the box and run silicone all over the 6 inch "frame" for it. Then seal around the glass. Let that cure for 24 hours. Next make the top from the last piece of wood. Do all your cutouts and painting before you screw it on. This piece will give added strength to the tank. Good luck. I really should write down these instructions permanently. After you're done, you will have a monster of a tank.
96 inches x 48 inches x 36 inches = 778 gallon tank.

[SteveJ]

Oh one more thing. Expect to have to bribe people to help. This project takes at least 3 people to do.

[FishBait]

Josh, while at juvenile sizes, the tank could easily be maintained (biologically) by live rock and sand. However, you are not going to want large amounts of rock to take up space, and as the shark grows, it will make a mess of any sanbed you try to get established. My plans for my future tank inclued a sump that has equal surface area of my tank. This is where I will place a dsb, planted/lighted refugium, and some live rock for additional surface area (submerged of course). I also feel using a good skimmer is going to be very effective for this situation. If you are not able to construct something such as this, then using a wet/dry is about all u can do. Just be very religious about keeping the biomedia cleaned, and always use water taken from the tank to rinse it off with. You may even consider some mechanical/chemical filtration as well if you see it fit. By testing your water and doing regular water changes (remember this alone can be quite expensive) you will be the judge as to what needs to be done. As for plans about constructing a wood/glass tank, sorry, but I have no info on that for you.

[SteveJ]

For a sump, you will have to build your own using a 150 gallon tank. You are going to want mechanical filtration. You will not be able to rely on the LR. Just use enough LR to build a hideout in the middle of the tank. Leave the perimeter open for the shark to move around. Also expect to be buying 200 gallon buckets of salt mix for water changes.
Most importan is can your home support this type of weight? You will be looking at almost 4 tons.
It is very expensive to house a shark. The water changes alone are going to run $50 a pop.

[Breef]

There are other additional materials that some people use in the construction of very large tanks.Research in this area will turn up very useful information.{fiberglass}is only one of these materials.

[Breef]

One of the best avenues to travel in you research is the websites of persons owning very large tanks who have experienced the pluses and minuses of the different methods.

[Josh669]

does anybody know of some websites? i checked one out, which was pretty good, he made a 480g out of plywood and glass, but it seemed that he was being over charged on a lot of things, so i was wondering if anyone else did it, what is the website?

[Breef]

Give me about thirty minuetes and I will try to see if I can find some.

[Josh669]

ok, well, that 778 gallon tank sounds awesome, but just a tad bit too large. I want to build the tank around 8feet long, about 32inches tall, and about 3 feet wide. Since I live in Florida, there arent a hole bunch of basements, so the only other place I can put this tank, is the garage, because there is no way i will be able to fit a tank that is 3 feet wide, through my door. should it be ok?

[Flatlander]

Josh, although I dont necc. agree, may I offer some help. Perhaps limiting the amount of live rock, [as sharks are free swimmers, open water], and have a good sand bed in both the tank and sump to help with bio filtering, may be a good idea.

Sandbeds are great bio filters. One could even grow some type of alages in the sump to help with nutrient removal. The biggest problem with a wet-dry, will be a build up of nitrates. As the tank will be large, water changes are more difficult to remove the nitrates. A sandbed will help with the nitrates, but will also provide a bio filter, so no w/d is needed.

Another way, would be to have a smaller fine sand bed in the tank, along with some rock and have a large sump, good skimmer, and put lots of base rock in the sump to provide filtration. HTH.

[Josh669]

I didnt really want to put that much live rock in the tank anyway, just enough for a hideaway or two. do i have to clean the sand, like i have to with the crushed coral? does the sand turn the nasty brown colors? and, with the live rock, will i need any special actnic blue lighting or anything like that, or can i just use the 10000ks? see, all the tanks i have had before were fish only, with crushed coral, and wet/dry filter,never used LR, so some of this is a little new, but i still know about it. what do i want to put in the sump, exactly?

[Josh669]

should i just make the tank reef ready? will that be easier? oh, I dont want the background to be the wood, is there a way I can make the background and sides blue?

[Josh669]

You know what? Someone posted something interesting, earlier, that got me thinking. I didn't even think of it. When this tank is filled, its going to way a few tons. That is a lot, and I dont think I will be able to put a tank that heavy in my house, my foundation wouldnt hold it. So, I think I might have to put this off for awhile. I still want to do it, but i'll have to wait till I get a house up north. Oh well, I still want to build my own tank though. Maybe a 200 gallon or something like that, unfortunately, no sharks, darn. But, maybe a lion, eel, something like that. Unless you know something I dont about foundation, or how heavy tanks get, thanks.

[FishBait]

Hey Josh, just thought I'd give a "Good for you" to ya for realizing that if you can't do it right, you shouldn't do it at all. You apparently have learned alot since I caught your post in the classifieds :) And that makes me very happy. I too realize I must wait until I can do it properly, and it can be frustrating, but I've learned that saving an animal's life is far more gratifying than watching it live briefly in my home.

[SteveJ]

Josh,
It's probably best to wait until you have a space to handle the weight. That is one good thing about having a house in NE. The bad part is driving in the damn snow.

[metamorphis]

Steve,
How do your plywood tanks look? Any pics? I'm also looking for a way to make the inside a bright blue. I don't really like the way reflects light at all.

[SteveJ]

I'll try and get a decent pic and scan it over the weekend. The last time I took a pic of my tank it came out like crap. Don't know if it was me or the fact that Walgreens developed the roll. Now to convince the wife(once again) that I'm not really crazy when I take out the camera and go to the fishroom.