Drs. Foster and smith giving really bad advise

[Jake]

In their new Catalogue Drs Foster and smiths "experts" give advise about setting up a 46 gallon reef tank and suggest a total of 19 fish be kept in the tank including a yellow tang. They suggested adding the fish in two groups of about 10 each spaced about 1 week apart. This along with like 80 lbs of live rock. Where are they going to swim? This would be pretty funny if I thought people would not believe it. But you know a bunch of newbies are going to go out and fill a 46G tank with 20 fish. I wonder if there is a way to stop them from putting out such terrible advise! Or t least to ask them to be more responsible with their advise instead of just trying to sell a bunch of fish MO that are doomed to die.

Any thoughts

-Jake

[karl wagner]

I guess I'll coin that approach:


Combinatorial Biology?

[AcroSteve]

Here you go!

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213537&highlight=19+fish

[Scuba_Dave]

and some people are defending having 19 in a aquarium..!!

[mantishunter]

Please be careful flaming. We are representing BRS / MACNA and have to take a responsible high-road approach. I would suggest writing or calling first before the flame and find out what the real story is. If you are then dissatisfied with the responce, approach them directly with your reasoning. If you take exception and would like support of your position with BRS then state the case and we can collectivly take up the issue. We all, as an organization now have too much at stake. We all, as an organization also have the power to make a difference. I know it's less fun to hold back from flying off the handle, but we do enjoy a lot more benifits as BRS ers. Thanks and let us all know the DL.

[mantishunter]

I was not suggesting there is any flaming going on here, yet , so no acusation intended. Just seems as though there may be a real issue here we could tackle. As far as I'm concerned it does seem like too much livestock, but I also have respect for these guys so I'm sure there is an explaination.

[jimmyj7090]

I've seen their catalog and I'm horrified. I can see why jake would post this as an awareness builder.

.02

jk

[Jake]

I did email DFS and here is my email and there response:

"Please be aware that due to your recent article encouraging people to put 19 fish in a 46 gallon tank I can no longer support your drygoods or live aquaria website. I used to buy a lot of stuff off of FF express and the drygoods catalogue but I cannot support a company who is so irresponsible in giving adise that effects the animals they sell. I hope you reconsider the advise you give, and focus more on giving advise that will benifit the living creatures that you sell and your customers instead of trying to get people to overstock a tank with fish that you happen to be selling. 19 fish added, over the course of a week or two, to a well lit 46 gallon reef tank will result in a ton of problem algae and a bunch of dead fish and invertebrates. How can you consider that article good advise?

Not meaning to attack you guys but if you are claiming to be experts how can you consider the advise in that article good? If you are going to claim to be experts I really think you need to be more responsible with giving to advise to people setting up their first reef tank.

Regards

Jacob Maki"




Dear Jacob,

Thank you for your email.

We apologize that it appears the article gives in correct advise. We will certainly send this email onto our experts to see if they may be able to revise this article. As long as the tank has proper filtration, and plenty of live rock the system should be able to handle the addition of these fish. In the articles we state to wait two weeks before adding more fish into the tank. By giving the tank this much time the beneficial bacteria needed for the new fish should become established, and you should not lose the fish. If the fish are under a lot of stress this could cause the loss of the fish, but as long as the filter is working properly, and the Live Rock is working with the filter you should be able to add these fish into the tank without a problem.

Again we do apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. If we can be of additional assistance, please contact our Live Aquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email.

Sincerely,
Nick
Internet Customer Service
Drs. Foster & Smith

We hope that you find this information beneficial. You will also find over 1500 articles full of helpful information on our Pet Education website! Browse by species or topic. Your question(s) may already be answered there. http://www.peteducation.com

[JBrown2197]

"If the fish are under a lot of stress this could cause the loss of the fish"

How are the fish not going to be stressed with those numbers? The feeding frenzy alone would be a mess.

[Scuba_Dave]

They did do a pretty good write up on Nemo.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1999&articleid=2919

Min tank size for a tang - 50g for yellow, 75g for hippo

Can't really comment on the catalog, as I haven't seen it. 19 fish would seem to be excessive (is that the word?).
Perhaps someone could scan it in & post it for others to read.

[bdr127]

I suppose in theory this should work..... But the likelyhood of it happening in reality is another thing.

[karl wagner]

(clearly not bashing anyone, ever, continued)

I think they might be referring to the (inches of fish) rule of thumb? 19 inches worth of fish (?) I suppose 19 specimens, including a plurality of hermit crabs and snails, might just work.

On the other hand, when have we seen good solid advice on one of these "what to do" pages. Part of me thinks that if these pages said the conservative approach, the "typical american" would lose interest in the marine hobby before it even took hold.

Else, yet another reason to go to your LFS.

[jimmyj7090]

I'm pretty sure you can fit 30 plus yellow tangs in a 45 g but you'll need to add lots of stress coat to aviod stress.

Seriously, anyone reading those articles is a newbie and should be getting cautious advice. Personally when I was starting I was disappointed that I had to go slow, but I would have been very disappointed to have killed all those fish.

You might get away with overstocking like that and not initially lose any fish, but what will the long term success be? As a guide for newbies (so they can begin fish/reef keeping/buying without ever picking up a book) the article should at least dicuss more cautious approaches as options. IMO the article, and the response to Jake's e-mail both show that these guys have no regard for their livestock at all.

I have quietly boycotted dr.F+S since the first time I got their cataolge. I think it is good that Jake brought this up and is attempting to give them some feedback.

Like so many LFS's out there, the "experts" at Dr.F+S may be living in the undergravel or wet dry eras. If they are then they should spell it all out so people don't take them as reccomending 20 fish in a 45g natural system.

It just seems to be terribly irresponsible advice aimed directly at the beginner who doesen't know better. I'm cynical, that equation says to me, "lets kill as many fish as possible so these suckers will have to buy more"
.02

[jpfelix]

besides the bioload, what about compatibility? the four wrasses and the pseudo would have the tank devoid of any bugs in days, the hawk would eliminate the cleaner shrimp and the algea blenny would be obese!

maybe i should call them and order a purple tang for my 29!:lol:

btw there is no test kit listed in the shopping list. this is the most inexpensive insurance you could have!

[mikrok]

Originally posted by stranglehold
Here you go!

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213537&highlight=19+fish

if you look at the link provided by stranglehold, and read some of the opinions of some members you might find some funny stuff that noone seemed to notice....

Originally posted by sdcfish
I would have to agree that 19 one inch fish could be maintained in a 46 gal aquarium with Live rock and skimming, would work.

I am thinking of what 1" full grown fish are out there that we trade in? Clown goby's? mmmmmmmm can't think of any others, but I am sure there are some.

Just keep in mind that the bioload is directly linked to the amount of food you put into the aquarium. How much food would you need to put into your aquarium with 19 tiny fish in it?

I have a 26 gallon aquarium that has about 15 lbs of live rock and 12 lbs of live sand. This tank has kept a mated pair of Coral Sea Tomato clowns for 3 years, but I just made the tank home for a 4 inch conspic angel. Pretty exciting.

Happy fishkeeping!

Eric


NOTE: 4 inch consp. angel in a 26? how happy is that fish? it says he has a 90 gal. fresh, 11g nano, and a 30g reef/fish...which tank will he grow out in? i hope the 90...IF he doubles it

just my opinion, maybe I'm a lot newer to the trade but I agree with Mr. Fenner in being a "Conscientious Aquarist"

good day all

[DFS]

It is the utmost importance to Drs. Foster and Smith that we provide the most up-to-date and accurate information on all aspects of the hobby to both our customers and the general public. Along with the extensive information that we provide for all of our species of fish, corals and invertebrates, we have provided numerous articles to aid the new hobbyist in being successful in the hobby.

Unfortunately, occasionally the attempt to provide brief overview articles regarding book-length subjects (under tight catalog deadlines) results in published errors. The article in question, “How to set up a Reef Aquarium in 5 Easy Steps� is an example of such a case. While the Aquatic Services Staff reviews all catalog articles, oftentimes additional post-review edits are made to design and copy as the print deadline nears.

Two of these final edits compromised the integrity of the information we aimed to provide. The first was an inversion of procedural steps describing the preparation of saltwater, and the second was addition of specific numbers to the list of suggested ideal fish and invertebrates, making it read as if beginners should inhabit so much aquatic life in such a limited aquarium size. Please take a moment to review our corrections to the article at LiveAquaria.com.

As you can see from previous articles, we have always stayed with the general recommendation of ½ inch of fish per gallon in a saltwater aquarium. Following are links to articles written by our in-house experts on this subject:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=199; http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1990&articleid=2931.

We do our best to keep on top of the changes in both technology and methodology, and we attend all of the major conferences including, MACNA and IMAC. It is our goal at Drs. Foster and Smith to be cutting edge not only in the information that we provide, but also in the products and livestock that we offer.

As part of our service to our customers, we have a full staff of trained aquatic technicians who are available 7 days a week to help with problems of any kind. They are fully aware of these misprints, and have been instructed to inform our clientele of these errors. Again, we sincerely apologize for the misinformation provided in our last Aquarium Outfitters edition, and we will take every corrective action within our powers. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kohen
Drs. Foster and Smith
Live Aquaria Director

[Jake]

Kevin

Thanks for your response. I am glad to see you are taqking steps to correct the information. As long as you follow through on your words here, I think your response has satisfied the concerns I voiced earlier. Thanks for your response.

Jake

[jimmyj7090]

DFS,

It's nice to know you are paying attention. It's also nice to see a fourm like this used for constructive feedback and communication.

jk

[Scuba_Dave]

It's nice to see a positive response from DFS. Mistakes do happen.
Thank you

[RobboT]

Sure sure blame the editors :D (for those of you not in the Boston Reefers I am the BRS newsletter editor)
Seriously it's great to see a positive outcome from this.
I'm glad there are suppliers willing to take the time to address the concerns of conscientious hobbyists.

[David S]

I agree you have to try to make some gauge most say 1inch per gal DFS said 1/2 that would mean I can put 45 inches in my 90 WOW thats over a yard lol. I think that is were the problem lies. until we can find somthing a little better to gauge.( possibly impossible without expererience) IMO you will find this problem.
I think foster and smith at least try and will take a look at your email says somthing.

[Keith Sheridan]

Agreed it is nice to see a responsible response from this. I read the original article and kept searching for the disclaimer that said here are examples of fish to place in the tank, of which only a few should be chosen.
Anyway guages are usefull, but people need to understand the differenses in fishes behavoir. A 3 foot shark obviously can't be placed in a 75 gallon, but I would suggest a 3 foot eel could.

[kodyboy]

It is not the number of fish, but the overall mass of the fish and its behavior that counts. I am sure I could put more than 19 neon gobies in a 46 gallon tank and they would be very happy, I would not put one large angel in such a tank or even a decent sized grouper, a large tang would be pushing it as well. I am sure, mass-wise 10 Pseudochromis paccagnellae
would fit fine in a 46 gallon, and in a few days it would be even better as one would be left! How about a school of 25 green chromis in a 46 gallon tank? Would that work, or is that impossible? While few fish is nice and easier on tank management, it depends on the mass of the fish and what the behavior of the fish is more than an arbitrary number, although the catalog was horribly wrong in the choice of fish for that tank, hopefully the update will be better.