Ph and Calcium low....

[XDrewX]

As you will see below my Calcium and PH are on the low side, as well as my Mag.

I used to dose B-ionic, I did this for months, and no difference in Calcium, it only raised my Alk higher.

I have been dosing Kalkwasser for a few days now, but i have seen no rise in Ph.

I drip 3/4 of a gallon a day.
My Kalk mix consists of: 5 gallons of RO/DI water with 10 teaspoons of Kent Kalkwasser mix.

These tests are right before I started the Kalk Dosing.

Tank parameters:

PH: 7.86 day/ 7.68 night Pinpiont monitor and MEI test kit
Salinity: 1.025 Refractometer
Phosphate: 0 Seachem test
Ammonia: 0 Salifert
Nitrite: 0 Salifert
Nitrate: 0 Salifert
Calcium: 250 Salifert
Magnesium: 1250 PPM Salifert
Alkalinity: 12.8dKH / 4.57 meq/L Salifert
Salt: Iinstant O
I do a 4 gal water change every two weeks

Tank has been set up for 5 months, all rock and coral is 4 years old from previous tank.
I use RO/DI water. Cartridges only 3 month old.
20 gallon tank with a sump containing 15g water, bag of carbon, MAG 950 for return and a Euro-Reef protein skimmer.
35lbs of FIJI live rock
2" sand bed
250watt 10k MH on for 8 hrs a day
130watt Actinic on for 10 hrs a day.

Inhabitants:
1- Cherub angel, gets fed once a day, flake by flake, to insure no waste.
22 Astrea snails
Mushrooms
GSP
Ricordea
Brown star polyps.
2 - tiny SPS corals
1-1/2" Squamosa clam- I feed it Dt's outside of the tank.

I noticed my ph really started to fall about the time I closed all of my windows and turned on my Air Conditioning. Could this be the excessive Indoor CO2 I have read about here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm


Sorry for the long post.
Thank you, to all who took the time to read it.

[Habib]

Thank you, to all who took the time to read it.

I only read the last line. :D J/K :)

The magnesium is OK and I would not worry about it.

If you take a small jar with aquarium water and aerate outside the house using outside air for about an hour does the pH rise and if so how far?

If the rise in pH is very small and the pH is still low then that might also be a defective pH probe or defective calibration liquids (I assume you calibrate it).


The calcium is low if it has neen measured correctly and if the kit is not defective. But even if it is low then that has, in your case, (almost) nothing to do with the pH.

You might want to check new water change water to see what calium value you get with the IO salt.

If the calcium is low then you will not be able to increase it with the B-ionic or kalkwasser beacuse they will also increase the alkalinity whic will resist a major increase in alkalinity.

If you have verified the calcium reading then you can increae it with one of the many buffer free calcium supplements.

Have you added in the past or recently any buffer or pH increaser ? If so then I would stop adding it. It might even decrease the pH.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree. I'd confirm the calcium reading with another kit, if possible, then go about raising it with calcium chloride as described in this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Note that, as you found, any balanced additive system ( a reactor, limewater (kalkwasser), or a two part additive) is unsuitable for raising claicum that much. All you end up doing is pushing alkalinity through the roof.

On pH, I'd confirm proper operation of the meter with borax:

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/2000/feb/bio/default.asp

If it checks out, then CO2 may be the explanation (actually, it must be if the alkalinity and pH are correct, and borate is not excessive), and I'd try the aeration tests to see if it is in tank CO2 or in home CO2.

[XDrewX]

I just tested my new saltwater made from I/O and RO/DI water.

Ph 8.0 which is consistant with the reading I got a couple months ago.
Calcium: 250

I will follow the suggestions and report back.

Thanks for the help so far guys, I really appreciate it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The calcium is 250 ppm in fresh IO? What salinity are you using? That seems very low. Maybe it is a kit error.

[XDrewX]

My Salinity in the water I tested was 1.026, (a little evaporation had ocurred while it sat).
My tank is usually at 1.024 - 1.025

I use a refractometer which I calibrated when I purchased it brand new about 3 months ago.

I am going to get a new test kit for Ca and see if the kit is the problem.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That seems like a good idea. 250 ppm for calcium in IO seems off the charts low.

[XDrewX]

Ok,
I think I have the pH problem figured out..... excess indoor CO2.

The other day the weatherman called for an 80 degree high, So I opened the windows in my house. After about 4 hours of a nice breeze sweeping thru the house, my pH rose from 7.8 to 8.2.
Now, this may be a common occurance for most people, but in my case my pH never gets above 7.89.
Today with the windows closed and the air conditioning on, my max pH is 8.0.

I am going to try to pipe the airline for my skimmer to an outside air source.

I still haven't calibrated my pH probe because I have been to 3 grocery stores and can't find the Borax that is referenced in the article.
But even if the monitor has lost its calibration, I still think the fact that it sensed an increase in pH would be an accurate indication of a pH that has risen. Even if the actual numbers are not perfectly correct. (Did that even make sense, or am I way out in left field. :D )

I guess I am just going to get the little packets that come with the pinpoint monitor and calibrate........

Still working on the calcium problem, A new test kit (Hagen), only type LFS carried.
Results:
280 Ca in tank
380 Ca in new batch of IO saltwater.

What is odd about all of this is that my Clam just had a growth spurt, about 4mm. I have new pink coralline algae popping up everywhere, and my small hydnophora is growing like mad.

So.... do you think I am correct on the excessive indoor CO2 for the low pH situation ?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am going to try to pipe the airline for my skimmer to an outside air source.

I think your conclusion from the open air experiment is likely a good one, and the solution is too.

The only caveat is the possibility that your tank has limewater for calcium and alkalinity addition, and the addition is evaporation based (mine is) and the open windows increased evaporation, increasing limewater, increasing pH.

[rmendis]

I think I have a similar problem with the high indoor CO2. What's the best way to deal with this, besides opening windows which I can't do all the time? I have an Aqua C remora hang-on skimmer, so there isn't an airline to that.

Thanks,
-Rich

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you cannot get more fresh air, then limewater is a very good choice. If it is just tank CO2 and not indoor CO2, then more aeration will help.

[XDrewX]

Ok this is where I am at today.

I finally found some Borax, (20 mule team), to test my pH probe/monitor with.
My pH monitor was right on the money.
So I went around and tested all of the water I could find: LOL

Ro/DI water : 6.8 pH
Kalkwasser mix: 11.76 pH
Newly mixed IO saltwater, that had a powerhead churning in it for 24 hours: 7.61 pH ( I am assuming due to my excessive indoor CO2.) I am going to mix my next batch of saltwater outside and see what pH that gives me.
Tank is at 7.94 pH, with running the airline from my skimmer outside. The line is only outside for about 4-6 hours a day. For security I must close the window and lock it at night, and while at work.

My calcium is at 400...... finally.....

I have been doing more water changes than usual, 8% minimum a week, sometimes I do 16% a week. I am going to keep this up as it can only help and I don't see a down side to it.

I have been dosing about a 1/2 gallon of kalk mix a day, it drips 24/7. I made the last batch and my current batch a little stronger than usual. I heaped the teaspons instead of leveling them.

My alkalinity seems too high....... it is at 4.62 meq/L (Salifert)

Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate all at 0.
Magnesium at 1200.

The low pH is really bothering me more than the corals. My clam and Hydnophora are growing like crazy. All of my soft corals are growing fast too.

I did lose all 9 of my ricordea over a 4 day period. I think something came out of the sand and ate them. My water parameters were perfect except for the low pH. I had these guys for about a month, a few for 3 months.

I was thinking of adding 2 teaspoons of baking soda for every 5 gallons to my Ro/Di water I use for either top-offs or new batches of salt, to help bring up the pH. Would that be OK ?

[rmendis]

If your tank pH is 7.94, isn't that within the acceptable range?
Just curious, since mine varies from around 7.95 to 8.03 throughout the day, and I don't want to add any livestock if this is too low.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

rmendis:

Your pH is OK. It is not optimal for calcifying corals to have pH below 8.2, but many people very successfully keep them there, especially folks that use CaCO3/CO2 reactors. Regardless, if you are not currently supplementing calcium and alkalinity very much, then the pH now may have little brearing on the pH once you do. Supplementing alkalinity can have a significant upward (or downward) effect on pH, depending on how you do it.

My alkalinity seems too high....... it is at 4.62 meq/L (Salifert)

Not high enough to bother doing much about, as long as you can maintain calcium adequately.

I was thinking of adding 2 teaspoons of baking soda for every 5 gallons to my Ro/Di water I use for either top-offs or new batches of salt, to help bring up the pH. Would that be OK ?

NO, that will raise alkalinity relative to calcium. Limewater is a good choice for the top off, and dissolving calcium carbonate (like Aragamight or Southdown sand) is a second choice for the top off water.

[rmendis]

I have been using b-ionic (I assume the new version) for about a 10 days. The pH stays within the 7.95 - 8.05 range. Ca is 380 -400, dKH is 10 - 11. Using Pinpoint pH meter, Salifert Ca and dKH tests.

Yesterday, I left a window near the tank open, and the pH rose to about 8.1. Sounds like high indoor CO2 is the cause. I think my situtation is very similar to XDrewX.

Based on some research and your advice, I ordered some Kent Marine Kalkwasser. That should help to keep up Ca and dKH, while also giving my pH a boost. Am I on the right path?

BTW: Thanks so much for all your help, Randy!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Am I on the right path?

:thumbsup:

Is the B-ionic that you are using this one:

http://www.esvco.com/prod6.htm

which has a significant pH raising effect,

or this one:

http://www.esvco.com/prod14.htm

which does not?

In your case, the regular (first) one is the best choice.

[rmendis]

I have the first one: "B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System".
I do notice a raise in the pH when I add it, but it never goes above 8.1 (keeping within the recommended dosage and parameters).

I assume if I use a combination of Kalkwasser and this B-ionic solution, I should be able to get Ca, dKH, and pH params to target levels?

Thanks again,
-Rich

[XDrewX]

Today, I made 5 gallons of saltwater OUTSIDE, so I wouldn't have any interference from my indoor air.
I ran a line from my RO/DI unit outside to the bucket.
I used a 400 gph powerhead to mix the salt.

After I let it mix for about 6 hours here is what I got.
WATER TEMP 80 DEGREES: (had bucket in shade)
SALINITY: 1.025 (refractometer) ATC type, but I also left it outside for a few hours before using it.
PH: 7.89 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS FROM A BRAND NEW BAG OF I/O.

I was expecting at least something around 8.15 minimum.

I think I am just going to live with my tank pH having an 8.0 daytime max.

Thanks everyone for your help !

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know how good the mixing is in a situation like that. My suggested experiment is to take 1 cup of water and aerate it with an airstone outside and see what happens to the pH. CO2 is quite hard to equilibrate in a large container.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I assume if I use a combination of Kalkwasser and this B-ionic solution, I should be able to get Ca, dKH, and pH params to target levels?

Unelss it is overpowered by very high indoor CO2, then that should result in a much higher pH.