Time to critique my plumbing!

[jtag]

Hi All,

I'm in the 'about-to-start-plumbing' phase of setting up my system and, this being my first go at it and all, could really use some pointers on good and bad plumbing design. The general system itself is a 150 gal display upstairs with a 70 gallon stock tank sump in the basement with plans to add a 30-50 gal fuge in the future. Here an overview of the setup and the plan:

- 150 gallon oceanic (72Lx28Hx18D) with dual overflows
- 2 x 1" drains
- 2 x 3/4" returns
- 70 gallon rubbermaid stock tank sump in basement
- 13 feet of static head from the sump floow to top of tank
- 4 feet of horizontal from tank to sump
- Iwaki 100 (this is hasn't been purchased yet so it's still negotiable - considering a Dolphin 4700 as well)
- PM Bullet-2 skimmer w/ a Mag-18
- Using Flex-PVC wherever possible
- True-Union Ball-valves up the wazoo for easy control/maintenance.
- Planning on adding a Tunze TS24 Stream kit for flow so I'm not overly concerned with getting high flow-rates from the returns (1000 GPH or so would be fine).

Here's the overall picture of "the plan" (47k image). (http://www.hellbent.com/home/glen/images/reef/plumbing.gif)

Here are a few questions that I know I could use some clarification on:

1.) Since the tank is upstairs and the sump is in the basement I'm planning on having redundant ball valves on the return and both drains in both locations. I figure that this will save me from having to run upstairs/downstairs if I need to turn something off. Is this overkill or am I fine with just having the valves downstairs with all the equipment?

2.) Would it be better to 'T' both 1" drains into one 1.5" drain and then run that downstairs or is keeping them both separate a better idea (as was recommended by my LFS (http://www.inlandreef.com))?

3.) My design currently has one 1.5" return coming up from the basement and the 'T'ing off into two 3/4" returns under the tank. Does this sound reasonable or could I get away with a 1" return T'ing into two 3/4"s? I'm not sure how the flow-rate of the returns would be affected by this.

4.) I'm planning on placing a gate valve on the return immediately after a ball-valve after the return pump so that I can throttle the pump with the gate and not have to readjust it every time I need to service the pump. It seems to make sense to me but am I just being silly?

5.) Is there anything that I'm doing that will unncessarily impede the return flow? Larger diameter pipes? Smaller? Splitting the returns closer to the tank vs. closer to the pump?

Anything else that I am doing wrong or could do better?

Thanks,
Glen

[mirski57]

Wow...Incredibly similar to my setup.
180 upstairs and 100 stock in basement. I'm also using an Iwaki 100 for my return and 100 feet of Flex PVC. I'm doing mine now, so It's not actually running. Only difference I have is that I have "T"'s under my tank for both the drains and the returns and just run 1 1/2" Flex PVC all the way. Also, I have a gate value on my return next the pump, but not doubled up with the ball valve. However your idea has good ground for doing it that way.

It was fun trying to find the right pieces to reduce the 1 1/2" to 3/4" for the returns under the tank. I have the 1 1/2" Tee, then 1 1/2" --> 1" reducers, then a 1" - 3/4" barbed fitting for the returns under the tank.

Also...where you get all the nice little graphics for your presentation ? (ie gate valves and ball valves)

[BlackGrouper]

This diagram look pretty awesome. Thanks for sharing

[obba]

nice diagram!

im working on mine, but it looks horrible :o
what program did you make yours with?

[jarhead]

Originally posted by jtag
- Iwaki 100
Consider Sequence instead of an Iwaki. Sequence is very quite and more energy efficient.
Would it be better to 'T' both 1" drains into one 1.5" drain and then run that downstairs or is keeping them both separate a better idea ?I say run 2 1" flex PVC w/o tee'ing them off. I had mine plumbed the same way and had to redo it because of the noise level.
My design currently has one 1.5" return coming up from the basement and the 'T'ing off into two 3/4" returns under the tank. Does this sound reasonable or could I get away with a 1" return T'ing into two 3/4"s? I'm not sure how the flow-rate of the returns would be affected by this.With 1.5" return you'll have less friction.
I'm planning on placing a gate valve on the return immediately after a ball-valve after the return pump so that I can throttle the pump with the gate and not have to readjust it every time I need to service the pump.
I have it set up the same way.

Here's what my setup looks like in the basement:
http://a3.cpimg.com/image/FD/41/19429373-3da9-01560200-.jpg

...and upstairs:
http://a1.cpimg.com/image/B7/BB/18742711-1de1-02000156-.jpg

Don't forget to build the Durso standpipes.

[jtag]

Thanks for the replies, I didn't think that the diagram would receive such praise :) A few of the images came from a diagram (http://www.inlandreef.com/Images/DIY/Plumbing/plumbing_dual.gif) that my LFS has on their web site (credited to Layne Logue). I simply chopped them up in Photoshop and used PowerPoint to assemble them all (makes it much easier to move things around as the design changes).

mirski57

What a coincidence, I was actually perusing your photo gallery the other night looking at your basement sump setup. Mine isn't quite as elaborate (using cinder-blocks and 3/4" plywood instead of the 4x4's and 2x6's). I'm also looking at sistering the joists directly below the tank just like yours. I already have two 20,000+ lb support columns installed but you can never have too much support IMO ;)

jarhead

Thanks for the comments. Looking at the pump specs (http://reefs.org/library/pumps/) it looks like the Sequence pumps can shave 150W or so off the power consumption compared to the Iwaki. Nice! With 13ft of static head I'm guessing on 16ft or so of total head once I factor in loss due to friction, etc... Considering that I'm looking for 1000-1500 GPH do you think I could get away with the 2900 (http://reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/sequence2900seq21.html) or is it worth it to move up to the 3500 (http://reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/sequence3500seq21.html)?

Thanks again,
Glen

[mirski57]

jarhead,
very interesting about the noise level of having the drains "T"'d versus separate. I'll have to try that experiment myself, becuase I plan on "T"ing my drains into a single 1 1/2" drain. Only because I'm using Flex PVC all the way (43 feet to the sump) and if I re-plump the drains, I'll need another 100 feet of 1" Flex PVC which is another $100. But if I hear noise when it's all set and running, at least I'll know 1 possible solution for me to pursue. Good information.

Mirski57

[gregt]

Why use so much flex? Why not use straight PVC as much as possible and flex only in the areas where it's needed?

[jtag]

Originally posted by gregt
Why use so much flex? Why not use straight PVC as much as possible and flex only in the areas where it's needed?

Good question. In most circumstances I'd say that using as much straight PVC as possible is the way to go (especially financially!) however my tank is setup in such as way that although it's probably only 9 feet of vertical from the T under the tank to the sump the plumbing needs to bend 5-6 times to get downstairs becuase the tank is acting as a free standing room divider (no wall to run the pipe through). Since some of the pipe will be visible I also think that the flex PVC is more asthetically pleasing. Living in a contemporary home I'm thinking of painting the visible flex-PVC some wild colors and calling it 'modern art' when people ask about it. :D

In the end I've determined that it will actually be much easier and cleaner looking to have one length of flex PVC with a few 'S' curves than 5-6 lengths of straight PVC with a whole mess of elbows. I'm also hoping that the Flex-PVC will reduce friction in the returns and be a bit quieter overall.

In mirski57's case where he has an huuuuge length to run using straight PVC would certainly be financially a wise decision but I can also understand the piece of mind that having one long run of pipe gives you vs. several shorter runs connected with elbows (more potential points of failure).

[jarhead]

Originally posted by jtag
Considering that I'm looking for 1000-1500 GPH do you think I could get away with the 2900 (http://reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/sequence2900seq21.html) or is it worth it to move up to the 3500 (http://reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/sequence3500seq21.html)? Glen,
I'd say go with the Sequence 3500, you can always throttle it back with the gate valve a bit.
Originally posted by mirski57
very interesting about the noise level of having the drains "T"'d versus separate. I'll have to try that experiment myself, because I plan on "T"ing my drains into a single 1 1/2" drain. I had my 1" drains increase to 1.5" and at the tee become 2" all the way into the basement. At the sump, I reduced it to 1.5". Starting at the point where the pipe diameter increased, the noise level was unbearable. This is just my experince... of course, YMMV
Previous plumbing (http://a2.cpimg.com/image/74/35/16508532-3729-02000156-.jpg)

[mirski57]

The reason I'm spending the $$ on all Flex PVC is so I can have the piece of mind of not having a seam to work with or worry about every 10 feet.

Plus...I have to go through 3 rooms, around walls and over an I-beam in my basement. So Flex works out very well in my case. Actaully, I had all the straight PVC in my house ready to go, and then I found Flex PVC, and I was like...WOW...I gotta have that. So when it came in the mail and I could see that Flex PVC is what I wanted, I took all 10 of the straight PVC sections back to home depot.

Anyway..it beats going with Clear PVC, which I also considered..but that stuff is $5 per foot....Then I'm looking at $500 just for pluming my sump to my main tank...yeah right. Anyway I settled with the Flex PVC.

[tilua]

Why so many ball valve? I see that you sometime put 2 valves onthe same pipe..

[jtag]

Originally posted by tilua
Why so many ball valve? I see that you sometime put 2 valves onthe same pipe..
The redundant ball valves are actually located on two separate floors of the house. I figured that it would save me from running upstairs/downstairs should I need to work on a particular part of the tank.

Originally posted by jarhead
I'd say go with the Sequence 3500, you can always throttle it back with the gate valve a bit.
Thanks for the pictures, they're extremely helpful! I'll definitely look into the 3500.

One question concerning you setup though: I've noticed that in your older setup (http://a2.cpimg.com/image/74/35/16508532-3729-02000156-.jpg) you use a double-wye with a cap on the top instead of a regular T where your two drains connect. I've seen this in a number of other systems as well but could never quite understand the reasoning behind it. Does this help control noise? Reduce friction? Or was Home Depot just out of T's that day :)

Thanks again,
Glen

[TheUPSguy]

I would make the drain lines bigger, since you mentioned lots of turns and such. All of that will all add backpressure to your system, and the durso's won't work right. I would say that if you plan on returning 1 1/2" of water you should supply 1 1/2" of water, or am I wrong? As far as the durso's inside the overflows, they need to be 1 1/4" or 1 1/2".

[Bacalhau]

I agree about the durso's. They should be at least 1-1/4"

[jarhead]

Originally posted by jtag
One question concerning your setup though: I've noticed that in your older setup (http://a2.cpimg.com/image/74/35/16508532-3729-02000156-.jpg) you use a double-wye with a cap on the top instead of a regular T where your two drains connect. I've seen this in a number of other systems as well but could never quite understand the reasoning behind it. Does this help control noise? Reduce friction? Or was Home Depot just out of T's that day :)
Glen,
No patricular reason for using the double wye. I could have used the T, but thought that the flow would be "smoother". Like I said, this was my old setup; since then, I have replaced the drain with 2 1" flex pvc pipes running all the way to the sump to stop the drain noise.

[jtag]

Originally posted by TheUPSguy
I would make the drain lines bigger, since you mentioned lots of turns and such. All of that will all add backpressure to your system, and the durso's won't work right. I would say that if you plan on returning 1 1/2" of water you should supply 1 1/2" of water, or am I wrong? As far as the durso's inside the overflows, they need to be 1 1/4" or 1 1/2".
That's a good point. After re-reading the instructions (http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe.htm) up on Richards web site I realized that the dursos should be 1/4" larger than my drain. I did manage to find some 1-1/4" schedule 26 at Lowes the other day along with the rest of the 1-1/4" parts so I'll be sure to use those.

As for making the drains bigger, I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying completely. I have two 3/4" returns being fed by one 1-1/2" return pipe and two independent 1" drains going back down to the sump. The way I see it I have 2" of drain and 1-1/2" of return so I should be ok. Does this make sense or am I missing something?

Thanks again for all the helpful advice,
Glen

[jarhead]

Originally posted by jtag
I have two 3/4" returns being fed by one 1-1/2" return pipe and two independent 1" drains going back down to the sump. The way I see it I have 2" of drain and 1-1/2" of return so I should be ok. Does this make sense or am I missing something?
Glen,
Nothing wrong with that. That is exactly how I set up my plumbing.

[frankk]

Great setup.. Only one very minor critique.

Iwaki 100 is a great pump, as are Sequences and Dolphins. But given a choice, I hate to depend on any one pump regardless of quality. This pump will be the heart of your system because I figure everything loses oxygen when it fails. And any pump will fail in a few years.

So unless you're running an internal loop in addition to what you show, I'd prefer some redundancy with two smaller pumps running on separate power circuits and GFCI's. So if one fails, you're not dead in the water.

Good luck,
Frank

[jdieck]

jtag:

Good diagram and very easy to follow. I have a similar setup, my tank is a 225 upstairs and the equipment is in the basement. I originally used a Dolphin 5000 HHS that I replaced by an Iwaki 100 RLT and I would not change it for anything.

Attached is a link to the diagram of my set up and a link to my gallery where you can see good portions of the setup.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2394&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showgallery.php?ppuser=18470&cat=500&thumb=1

A couple of comments:

a) Gate valve to regulate the pump flow: It is very common to regulate the flow using a gate valve on the discharge but note that this method is often abused as it may force the pump to run out of it's performance range. If too restricted it would cavitate shotening the life of bearings and spindles. One better method is to install a recirculation pipe with teh gate valve on it, this way any excess flow is returned to the sump. by adjusting this valve you can regulate the flow to the aquarium and still manage the pump within it's performance range (Mostly middle of the curb). If you do not have the pump performace curbs let me know and I will post it for you.

b) I have two dursos but instead of running separate lines I join them via W EYEs (to reduce drag) into a single line. (Actually two 11/2" into a 2" flex PVC. I use all flex PVC as it was chaper to by the 50' rolls (aquaticesosystems.com) than to by only pieces and then joiners etc.

c) Initially I had noise from the drains until I realized that because of the large dia of the drains It was sucking too much air. Proper adjustment of the dursos and a restriction in the discharge of the drain solved the problem.

d) No need for valves upstairs and downstairs. I only have one downstairs for the drain and works OK because once you stop the return pump, the drains go empty and you can disconnect if the need arises.

e) I would add some additional tap lines from the discharge of the pump that in the future you may want to use for a chiller, sterilizer, a Calcium Rector or simply to take some water from your tank to your Quarentine tank when changing water.

f) If you have not installed the sump yet, I would recommend building a big waterproof box about 10" high and wide and long enough to contain sump and all the equipment. I used wood and fiberglassed it and installed a drain pipe directly to a drain. You have no idea how many basement floods it has saved me from. It is a worthy investment.

g) You may want to install a check valve at the discharge of the pump in the basement. Although there would not be drain back from teh aquarium if your returns are above the surface your line will empty creating two potential problems when you turn the return off (Like for feeding): One, when the pump starts and the pipe is empty it will create a surge that hit the pipe in the fittings close to the outlets sometimes hard enough to break some of them or disonnect some hoses. Second: it will crate too much bubbles at the start up that may end up clingging to your aquarium glass or your corals (Ugh!).

h) You may want to conect a drain for water changes directly to your sump closer to the return from the aquarium. If you install the drain at the proper height (like a sump overflow) you can replace the water just by adding the new water closer to the pump intake and the excess from teh aquarium return will drain directly from the sump into the sewer.

And remember Piping and plumbing is only half of the story being electrical the other half.

Good Luck with your project.