SURGE bucket, that actually works!!!

[KingT420]

Crap, Crap and more crap. Every surge design I have seen does not work worth a dam. I have been messing with my surge buckets for the last 6 months. I have gone through every surge plan on the fricking internet and duplicated it, tweaked it, tweaked it some more, and then threw it away.

I thought Id share my experience building a reliable powerful surge bucket with the RC team, since I wrote this essay for another users surge problems. I will take some pics and add to my gallery. Maybe this could go in the DIY section?? Anybody???

To get a powerful surge, that was reliable and air free, what I did was, for each bucket was:

I took the flapper valve design, (most reliable starting and stopping of the surge) and have it actuated by a solenoid (the stupid lever design was just a nightmare) triggered by a float switch. There two float switches in each bucket.

Pump fills bucket, Top float switch triggers solenoid, valve opens, water level goes down, lower float switch triggers closure of the flapper.

What this accomplishes is, the PVC line running to the tank, NEVER empties out, it stays full of water all the time, solenoid closes the flapper before it would by itself (like on a toilet, or that OTHER design) So when the bucket fills, and the flapper opens, INSTANTLY with no AIR to speak of whatsoever, about 4 gallons of water empty into my tank in less than 3 seconds. Alternating buckets randomly (due to uneven fill rates)

I put a tee on the PVC line, that runs vertically up the wall a few feet with a cap on it, to provide a dead air space to soften the HIT of the Water Hammer that occurs when the flapper closes and tries to stop ~6 feet of water in a 1.25� PVC line. Before I did this, the water hammer would tear everything apart when the valve would close and when it didn’t it sounded like a gunshot in the garage.

Ok, a little more info, my tank is on a garage wall, on my 2 story house. So my surge buckets are in the garage on the wall 5’ above the tank. The first few cycles of the buckets produce surges with lots of air, till the PVC line gets filled with water, but unless you break down the buckets, it never happens again, Oh one more thing was, I had to plug the built-in overflow of the flapper valve, to hold the water in the PVC column. So of course I had to put an overflow in each bucket to prevent disaster if a float switch fails or something.

This bucket design has been operational for the last 2 month with out fail. My surge pump turns on with my first light, and turns off with the last one. Along with my wave timer, I have pretty decent water movement that I am definitely happy with. I am still playing around with the location of the surge outlet and the surge volume, (being actuated by a float switch, which by the way is moveable, I can adjust the volume of the surge to be 4.5 gallons to barley 1. Right now I have it se to fill the buckets about ¾ full, so about 3 to 3.5 gal each bucket)

Sorry for suck a long post, I hope this can alleviate some frustration with your surge design, Most people might say I don’t want to mess with the electronics, but I find them to be IME, easier to tune, and to operate, with much better results.

I wish everybody luck, and don’t give up on those surges, there is nothing like them for water movement.

[kevin gu3]

I guess you reeeealy didn't like those bubbles!

[KingT420]

I feel like in this day of age, with technology and such, why should we have to put up with things not working like they should, I mean, we have calcium reactors, and temperature controlled fans, and chillers, and moon cycle timers, it is pretty silly to have some archaic surge bucket, that in essence does not provide what it was designed for in the first place. I know other people have had success with some other surge designs, but I think what you get should be a high quality surge. Not a half working, air filled bubble making splattering allover your lights mess that the fish are scared of. If it wasn’t for the chaotic movement in the tank, you cannot even tell it is surging. Also my surge 100% of the water pumped into the buckets is part of the surge, unlike the siphon, where it takes a decent amount of water to even start the surge, resulting in a 5 gallon surge bucket providing about 1-2 gallons of forceful movement.

Bubbles, were really the smallest problem with those other buckets (although I sought to eliminate them). Reliability and functionality were really my biggest concern. But as an added benefit, the surge without the bubbles, is much more forceful (5+ times) than the surge with all the air. The surge with air was kind of cool to look at in the tank, (although air does kill sponges, and can hurt other animals) I think my high head height probably contributed to my buckets having a high air content surge. If I had it to do all over again, I wouldn’t do anything different, aside from not mounting the buckets 11’ up in the air. (Just for the sake of working on them) I REALY am happy with the way they turned out.

I spent about $150 on my various surge buckets, before I settled on this operational design. I feel it can be duplicated for less than $20 per bucket, less if you have PVC lying around. The solenoid was $5 for a Heavy Duty one from an electronic supply house. The float switches were $4 each from E-bay. No other circuitry needed, solenoids are run off my 3amp 12v power station I use for my Ice Caps, and my other float switches. I wired up the float switches so the top is NO and the bottom is NC, there is a small relay that holds the solenoid open till the lower float opens the circuit, causing the float to fall.


I would love to see some comments from people using other designs that successfully eliminated the air in the surge, and got them to be reliable and adjustable in function.

[kevin gu3]

$20 a bucket is much less than I thought.

I use a siphon surge, appealing because there are no moving parts and nothing to fail. Very reliable but there are those pesky bubbles. The bubble problem is mitigated somewhat by having the outspew right next to the overflow. The wastebasket (reservoir) is only 4 feet above the aquarium.

If I had my druthers all of the sump return would be going thru surge buckets instead of just part. I wouldn't trust my overflow to handle the occasional simultaneous surge from multiple buckets.

The thing about your setup that intrigues me is the solenoids; they offer the ability to have multiple buckets with none dumping simultaneously by firing off the solenoids one by one via some sort of controller rather than by bucket fill level. Do you know the brand/model or at least how much throw the solenoids have? I take it they are spring loaded. Graingers? Loud?

[KingT420]

The solenoids I used were the ones with the longest throw I could find, about 1� I got them at a surplus electronic store here in Sonoma County called HSC. They do Click quite loud, but I don’t notice because they are 10+ feet away and on the other side of a wall.

They are not spring loaded, I just mounted them to the lid of the bucket, drilled a small hole in the lid, I mounted the solenoids so that the plunger can never fall out of the solenoid because of how high above the lid I mounted them. I started out with them pulling on a lever, to get the float to “pop� open far enough to stay open, but when I added the lower float switch I eliminated the lever, because they are held open by the solenoid now. The solenoid is attached to the float by a piece of 150# test fishing line.

Currently the surge buckets are filled unevenly by a mag 12 on the garage wall pulling water out of an overflow chamber (not the sump) (so the mag 12 does not have a 12’ head) every little bit helps (my refuge is on the 2nd floor, with an direct overflow into the main tank, and it also has a mag 12 pulling out of the other overflow chamber) I found that this works much better than pumping water out of the sump up 12’ to the buckets, or up 16’ for my refuge. My return isa Mag 18 right now. Soon to switch to an iwaki 40 that I bought, then I might tee off to fill the buckets, and for the skimmer, maybe. I like the surge turning off at night, so that’s why I have a separate pump.
Your idea about controlling the surge with a controller is a great one, just rig the float switch to shut off the pump to that bucket when it gets full, or let it overflow.

Or make the overflow fill the other bucket before draining to the tank, (mine does that) one bucket fills, then the other (in any order) than the whole thing overflows to the tank if something fails.

I think the key here is the solenoid holding the flapper open, and closing it before it has a chance to suck air. I really like the float switch at the bottom, very failsafe way to eliminate air.

Some times they surge at the same time, my tank has no problem keeping up with the flow, I even filled both buckets, shut off refuge & surge pump and manually surged both at same time, water level rose about 1� and quickly fell. No prob on my 125 with all pumps running, a dual surge hardly raises the water a noticeable amount.

One thing I was thinking about was rewiring the buckets, so that if bucket #1 solenoid is open, bucket #2 has to wait to surge until bucket #1 is closed. It would take me about 10 min to wire it up that way, but I have just been too lazy, and it has been too hot in the garage, to get up on the ladder and fix it.

Bucket #1 surges about 1.5 times as much as bucket #2 due to fill rate, which I don’t mind, but if I implement the idea above, (bucket override, like you mentioned so they don’t surge together) I will even out the flow between the buckets, then maybe I can get a 1-1 surge.

[KingT420]

>

[SaltwaterNovice]

King:

Kudos on an incredible modificatioin to the surge bucket design. Necessity really is the mother of invention.

Can you post some pics/diagrams/instructions for us mere mortals that seek to duplicate your design.

Thanks for sharing and keep up the good work!

Best,

Brian

[Scuba_Dave]

So, pics, plans, let's see it please!!

[KingT420]

I will post pics when I get home, I modified the solinoid design this weekend to include a lockout that prevents both buckets from dumping at the same time. I will post that schematic also.

[KingT420]

I just found one of the bucket solenoid design, as well as the float switch placement, maybe this will be a little clearer, one side is open, other is closed.

[RJARMAN]

KingT,

Can you post your wiring diagram so we can see how it is done, and some real pics of it. This is one nice design of a surge.

R.Nelson Jarman III

[MarkS]

It's a great design, but I would still prefer a Reverse Carlson Surge Device (RCSD). For me, it's a trade off of piece of mind or bubbles and sound.

What happens if one of the switches or the solenoid breaks or gets stuck? At least with the RCSD you know nothing bad will happen if the air pump goes out.

[Pyrojon]

You don't need to worry about bad things if you design it properly. Due to the design of my surge it has a toilet flapper, backed up by a carlson surge device, backed up by an overflow. There have actually been a couple times where the flapper did not trip, the carlson did not start siphoning and the water just ran down the overflow.

My surge design has been running since January with not a single unplanned stop for at least the last 3 months. Took me a little while to get things situated exactly right where it would hang up once or twice a week, but once I got it right it runs like a champ forever and ever.

[Teo]

great design, I do feel an emergency overflow in the top of each bucket would be a good idea.

now if you put the top float switches on a device that slowly moves them up and down you could get quicker, gentler surges and then raise slowly to build up to a longer, stronger surge. do this two to three times a day to simulate the tides. just an idea.
thanks for sharing a great design.

[leykis1o1]

out of all the surge "bucket" devices ive seen or diagrams yours makes more sense!! what is the brand solonoid do you use....does the solonoid make much noise? maybe it could be replaced with "muscle wire" ..... what brand float switches do you use? pipe size? what size pump do you use or gallons per hour? ...awesome thanks!!

[leykis1o1]

ok im a idiot i fgot so excited by your diagram i failed to even read one post.....but wht do you think about using "muscle wire"

[melev]

That looks really good, and I'm impressed! :thumbsup:

[Pyrojon]

Muscle wire would probably not work too well. It doesn't shrink by a significant ammount when activated, just a couple percent if I remember correctly. It also is not super strong, though I suppose you could use several strands to get strength. Cost in that case would probably be prohibative. It also take a great deal of current to activate it, something you don't want to have in water. :)

[KingT420]

Hey all,

leykis1o1
I dont think that wire would work, with the buckets full, it takes quite alot of effort to open the flapper, The solinoids are preaty heavy duty, with about a 1/2" dia shaft and a large coil.

RJARMAN
I do have a wiring diagram, at home, I'll post it when I get there.
The solenoids are wired through a pair of relays that only allows one bucket to dump at a time. If they both go off at the same time, only one dumps, and when it is done, the other dumps.

I will take some pics this weekend, I have to move the convert out-o the garage.

You guys are going to laugh.. Seriously. My garage is the “fish room� and I still have to fit my baby in there, so it is a little crowded.


Teo
Oh yah, there is an overflow, just not in the diagram. I actually “tee� into the upstairs refuge return line, 1-1/2�. I know it is small, but my surge pump only flows about 400gph at the 14’ head it pushes.

The movable top float is already a reality, (at least by me). I have them set at about 2-1/2 – 3 gallon surge. I might try and hook it up to a stepper motor, or something, but I need to figure out my whole controller setup first. Right now the thing just runs off a timer, on just after first light, off after dusk.

Pyrojon
Now that’s how to protect yourself. I dig it.

MarkS
I was never able to get the Carlson to work for me. It is all a balance of flow from the pump, and the size and shape of your siphon. I stopped fooling around with that one after I realized I would have to buy a BIG$$$$ pump to fill the buckets quickly.

I have absolute confidence in this design. Electronics are minimal, and I have taken the (IMO) proper safety precautions regarding overflow/malfunction etc….
If one solenoid goes out, that bucket stops surging, overflows into the other bucket (either way) and (if #2 is still functional) surges. (twice as fast of course) or if they both go out at the same time (will never happen, maybe an electronics malfunction lets say) after both the buckets are full, they overflow back into the tank, and they just sit up on the wall full. Continually overflowing along with the upstairs refuge return.
I do not employ an air pump, and honestly I am not familiar with the RCSD, but I am not going back to the drawing board now.

This design is not for everyone, you basically need a dedicated fish room, I guess you could duplicate one to fit in a LARGE canopy, but that really wouldn’t be much of a surge. For what I wanted, I feel like this was the only way to go.

[KingT420]

leykis1o1
The pump, is now an old "Quiet One" I estimate about 400 gph (or less) at its high head. (the pump gets quite warm) I am currently looking for a better solution to my whole pumping nightmare. I think I am going to build another garage, and completely take over the one my car is in now. My sump is really the limiting factor now. (not drilled 40gal stock tank)

I glued (jb weld) a 1-1/4" PVC coupler into the bottom of the flapper unit that screws into the bottom of the bucket. From there I have about a 6-7' diagonal drop (to allow 45 degree elbows, not 90's) then through the wall into a 1-1/2" adapter and then a mess of Black PVC "Street L's" to direct the surge. (black only comes in 1-1/2�) if I had to redo it, I would up the size of everything to 1-1/2� just for the $%*& of it.

There is also a "T" just below the bucket connection that runs up to the top of the bucket and has a cap on it. This prevents the "Water Hammer" from destroying everything.

When you try to stop 8' x 1.25" of a fast moving water column, something is going to give. I learned this the hard way, when my surge was first successful; the first few surges tore the PVC apart and made a huge mess. Nothing was glued at that point, but the power of water is not to be underestimated. I don’t think you could have this design work without the dead air space to act like a cushion from the water hammer.

[KingT420]

I will get you guys some pics, to better explain the whole mess.

[Pyrojon]

Originally posted by KingT420
leykis1o1
There is also a "T" just below the bucket connection that runs up to the top of the bucket and has a cap on it. This prevents the "Water Hammer" from destroying everything.
.

Wow, now that is a great tip. I am thinking about building another surge, and converting my current surge to your design and it will save alot of hassles to add that in ahead of time.

Thanks alot.

Can't wait to see those pics.

Jon

[KingT420]

Does anybody know how to get this added to the DIY list here on RC?

[KingT420]

Pyrojon

I would like to see your setup when you are done, do you have room behind the tank, or are you fitting it in a hood??

I really think how high I have my buckets mounted is not necessary, although it does help with the velocity.

[Pyrojon]

I have been meaning to take some pics so maybe I can do some now and later shots.

I dont have it housed in a hood, but rather on a shelf above and behind the tank.

It's an acrylic box that holds about 2.9 gallons, it dumps about 2.6 gallons at a time. I am using an old power head to fill it and it takes about 2 minutes to fill and 12 seconds to dump.

I use 1" diameter pvc to bring the water to the tank but wish I had gone larger. The next one will probably use 1 1/4" diameter pvc.


Jon

[leykis1o1]

instead of running a T and a length of pipe with a cap on it to help water hammer..mayb e you could use a felxible type pipe that would flex when it hammers? have you tried this instead of pvc?

[leykis1o1]

to me my only isssue keeping me from making one is the noise.

do you have any idea's to replace a noisey solinoid with a differrnt type/make? whgat other noises does it make?

[melev]

Originally posted by KingT420
Does anybody know how to get this added to the DIY list here on RC?

You can submit your DIY information, along with pictures (a webpage would be my choice of course) and JohnL and staff will look it over to approve it for the DIY page.

http://reefcentral.com/directory/index.php?sid=582826391&t=sub_pages&cat=1

Btw, this can be found on the Home Page under <b>Web Links</b>, not the first <b>Do It Yourself</b> link.

[melev]

Originally posted by KingT420
Does anybody know how to get this added to the DIY list here on RC?

You can submit your DIY information, along with pictures (a webpage would be my choice of course) and JohnL and staff will look it over to approve it for the DIY page.

http://reefcentral.com/directory/index.php?sid=582826391&t=sub_pages&cat=1

Btw, this can be found on the Home Page under <b>Web Links</b>, not the first <b>Do It Yourself</b> link.

[MarkS]

Originally posted by KingT420
MarkS
I was never able to get the Carlson to work for me. It is all a balance of flow from the pump, and the size and shape of your siphon. I stopped fooling around with that one after I realized I would have to buy a BIG$$$$ pump to fill the buckets quickly.


The RCSD does not use any water pumps and is either located in the aquarium or externally, connected by bulkheads. The only device needed to power it is an air pump, and not even a powerfull air pump. I would recommend you do a search. Good reading material at the least.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your design. In fact, I find it quite amazing. My problem with it though is the same one I have with most other types of surges; Lack of a way to empty the device should something go wrong. Imagine what would happen if the wire breaks, or one of the float switches fails or the solenoid fails... Until you noticed, you would be pumping all of the water out of your system and onto the floor.

[leykis1o1]

he said he has a overflow tube at the top of each bucket!!

[KingT420]

Hey all, I am still trying to find my camera and that schematic. Maybe tonight….


leykis1o1

The “tee� and short length of pipe is for dead air space; the flexible pipe would probably fall apart. I had some of the thin wall PVC actually break on me, so I switched to sch 40. I am just guessing, but I bet there is at least 25# of water in the tube when full (which is all the time). Imagine taking a twenty pound barbell and tying it to your surge system in a few places, and then dropping it over and over. Something is bound to break. The dead air space, acts like a cushion for the water to stop softly. Some kind of expansion chamber (or whatever you want to call it) was definitely needed in my particular case. Just remember, my buckets are higher then the 2nd floor of my house, and making them lower (with shorter runs of pipe) might not need the same protection from the Water Hammer.

As far as noise, you could put a piece of sponge in the solenoid, or use a spring loaded solenoid to lessen the noise, a servo of some type could also be incorporated if you got creative. The key is to not “pop� the float valve open, (cuz if you do, it closes on its own, when the bucket is empty, instead of when you want it to, before air gets sucked in the pipe) so a very short throw solenoid would work as well. I am sure you could eliminate the clicking sound.

The sound it makes in the garage is a whole other story, you can hear the pump (of course just a little) and you can hear the buckets filling above your head, then the click, and then you hear what sounds like 4 gallons of water moving 10’ in 10 seconds. could defiantly startle someone. I like it, sounds like the ocean. I wouldn’t run one in my bedroom at night, but during the day, sure, why not. I can hardly hear anything in the house by the tank, no warning at all; even the fish have no idea when the surge is coming.

Oh, and the valve does make a very solid thud when closing (remember it is stopping that 25# of water)

I feel like a small-scale surge, closer to the tank, would be much quieter. As that was not on my list of “IT MUST DO THIS� I did not pursue silencing them.

I could see (3) or (4), 3 gallon buckets under a hood, with minimal plumbing not needing a cushion for the water hammer, and not making all that much noise. Wouldn’t be too hard.



MarkS
The overflow protects my pets and my house from any unnoticed damage, and the way it is setup in the tank, it is very easy to see what is going on with the surges. I can easily see the surges, and if I happen to miss them, I notice that my refuge return (directly to tank) is flowing twice what is should. I have tested this system failing many times (Believe Me, it took some work getting to this point).

Another cool little goodie, the relays I used to trigger the solenoids have a little led light on them, so when you look at them, you can see the operation of the circuitry.

Now water does sit in the bucket and PVC when it is not running, but to work on them, you just pull the string and let the whole bucket and tube empty. Viola, totally empty buckets to work on.

[melev]

Everything sounds really good from what you've posted.

I'd like to toss out one possibility, in case you haven't thought of it.

If your system fails on one side, from your last post I get the impression water stays in that line to avoid air bubbles. If that is the case, and that water can't move until you have the time to fix the problem, when you do reactivate that side, that water could be toxic from stagnation or lack of oxygenation.

Recently one RC member had a total tank wipeout because his calcium reactor pump went dead. He didn't drain it before restarting the system, and shortly there after everything was dead.

[KingT420]

melev
You make a good point. I was wondering about the stagnation of the water in the tubes. I haven’t noticed any problems yet, but then again the buckets are only shut off for 8 hours. I could easily set the pump timer to come on for a few minutes every hour during the night. I might even do that tonight. Like every other 15min on/off, might be cool.

I wonder how long it takes for our water to become stagnant?? I have an unused “Tee� in some of my plumbing that I bet has stagnant water in it right now. Also the cushion from the water hammer is nothing but stagnant air, and whatever else wants to thrive in there. I wonder if that would be a problem.

I am sure whatever living stuff that is in the tubes when they stop falls into the tank (gravity) but there is stuff in the buckets I am sure, that probably dies.

Maybe I should make the buckets drain completely each night?? And then have them purge the air out every morning with the first surge.

I don’t know how to handle the possibility of stagnant water, but I am sure each and every one of us has at least one spot in their tank, or sump, or plumbing etc… that doesn’t get the turnover it should.

How long was the reactor out before restarting it?? Do you know?? A reactor is full of a nice medium that I am sure bad stuff could thrive in a lot easier that water all by itself.

Anybody else got any comments or ideas???

[melev]

This is the thread (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=228994) about the failed reactor. He guesses it was dead for a week, but doesn't know.

Since I'd not read it recently, I thought it was just a few days, so I was worried you'd have an issue.

What about this for an idea.... Could you have both valves open all night to allow all your pipes to flow water freely during the night phase, then reset during the day time to the one-on, one-off system? You might have some air bubble issues for the first few surges, but that would emulate the ocean even better! :D

[KingT420]

Interesting reactor story, I feel a little safer now, considering the situation and all. I might try the 15 on 30 off for the night just for the fun of it. I would have to rewire my setup if I wanted the valves held open during the night, and I don’t want to do that.

I would like the movable upper float design, maybe Ill direct my energy that path, and then run the surge 24/7

[SaltwaterNovice]

King:

I doubt that you have anything to worry about polluting your tank with the "overnight" water from the surge devices.

First, I don't think the water will stagnate in eight hours. Why don't you do a simple test. Place some tank water in a bucket, test parameters, close up with lid, wait eight hours and then test your water parameters again. You will have your answer.

Second, even if the water did degrade slightly, from my calculations you have over a 200 gallon setup plus surges, so I don't think that it would have an effect on your system.

Also, I wouldn't run the surges 24/7 as the tank should have a little quiet time.

How long have your surge devices been operating.

Keep up the good work. You are blazing new trails.

Send yourself this idea in the mail and don't open the envelope (poor man's patent) just incase you want to sell this idea to a big company in the future

Brian

[H20ENG]

Great job on this! There are small actuators on zone valves for radiant heating systems that use a thermal element and wax. The element turns on, hetas up, the wax expands and pushes (actuates the valve) They take several seconds but are dead silent.
I think they used these to engage the front differential on my old 1990 Chevy 4X4 too. (Used to call it eventuala-trac, rather than insta-trac because it was slow acting.:D ) Probably stronger, but it cost $60.
Food for thought.

King,
Which timing relays are you using?
Chris

[KingT420]

Chris,

No timing relays, water flow determines the rate of surge.

Here is the schematic (I just found it)

*note there are 6 relays shown, I used 2 triple pole relays)
my circuit design program did not have that variable

[Teo]

for the stopper making noises when it shuts, there is a way around this with King's design if there is room beside the tank for the surge buckets, and if the pull string is replaced with a solid rod to also close the valve.

The valve could be located below the level of the main tank. and the bottom float switch just a little higher than this. that way there isn't much presure due to hight. draw back to this is not many people have the room beside their tank and a tall surge bucket would be required.

[szwab]

it would also be a less powerful surge which I think, is one of the things he is looking for

[matt_rogers]

NIce work KingT420!!
This looks like a keeper.

[bucker066]

this looks pretty cool any pics yet?

[KingT420]

I took a bunch of pics, but it is so annoying formating them to fit here, I am trying to get then on my net page to link to.

[Dman]

KingT420,
Your design is absolutely beautiful. Keeping the surge lines full of water all the time is brilliant, no mo' bubbles.
Now all I need to do is expropriate the closet upstairs and I'm laughing.
Thank you :D
Dman

[niko5]

Ied really like to see the pics... If you want to email them to me I will host them and put a post up with links... If so PM me.

[G-money]

Any updates on this?
I'd like to explore this method, but I'm afraid I'm not much with electronics. I don't understand the schematic. :) What exactly does the solenoid trigger to make the flapper move?

[A Reef Scene]

Great plans

[Saw_em_off]

I can't stop thinking about using a toilet flush mechanism for this. It would have the added benefit of a "relief" valve, in the form of the bowl filling tube. Might it be possible to install a one way valve in that tube to keep the discharge tube "primed" with water? I love the solenoid idea, but it makes me nervous to not have a way out if they fail. Suggestions?

And has anyone built one and snapped some pics?

[Pyrojon]

The basic toilet flusher design will not work unless that tube is open to air. At least not in my experiance.

[BrettH]

Tagging along-

Really like this idea... :D

[melev]

[tagalong]

[rufio173]

This is a really cool project. Long live the mighty float switch. It definitely makes our aquariums a lot more automated and safer in the long run if designed properly.

Just wish I had a better physics/engineering background :) Maybe my dad can help with all the wiring. I really don't want to fry myself attempting these things. Haha.

Peace,
John H.

[crescent1]

i played around for a little while with this setup, the old flapper style, worked great but bubbles galore.

the key to this style is a overflow pipe just in case the flapper decides not to flap open.http://www.mylivingart.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/surge2.jpg

[crescent1]

top view, in case the flapper will not open, and if flow from your pump is not greater then the pipe can handle, you will never have a flood.http://www.mylivingart.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/surge6.jpg

[crescent1]

i played with this setup for awhile, i set this all up just to house my corals and fish while i tore down my old tank and setup the newer one.http://www.mylivingart.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/surge1.jpg

[melev]

That is why KingT (the original poster) put together a new system that didn't allow any bubbles to pump into his tank. The solenoids would open and close before all the water drained, and all the moved was water - no air.

[crescent1]

I realize this marc, i'm just joining in on the fun, and showing my old setup. I'm also hopeing that kingT will post some pics for me to see and share in the fun , i love this stuff.

[rufio173]

Hey guys,

This system can also be accomplished with an actuated ball valve that responds to the floatswitches.

However, it is far more expensive to do it with the motorized ball valve. :)

peace,
John H.

[szwab]

anyone know of a good source for large dia. solenoids?

[KingT420]

Ok, guys, sorry for being gone for so long. I have pics of my setup and was wondering if somebody was willing to resize and host them for me.

Me setup is as described, and has been functional since my original posting. I made a few changes to the wiring because I found that the voltage sent to the solenoids dropped lower that 14v when they were activated. I fixed this problem like 6 months ago, and honestly cant remember what I did. All this affected was the power the solenoids had to pull open the flapper. (realized this when I tried having them surge the whole bucket full of water)

I actually shut them down last month to do some work on my overflow boxes and haven’t gotten around to hooking them up yet. I am going to remove the return from my overflow boxes, and use both bulkheads for overflow. Dumping 10gal of water into my tank in just a few seconds occasionally caused a little spillage (go figure!!!) If anybody has a suggestion on how to lower the static water level in my tank (when all is shut off) and how to increase the gph the overflow wiers can handle, without sucking fish into the chambers, I am open to suggestion.


I cant remember all the questions asked, but they do have a overflow backup, this does take a toll on whatever pump you demand to do this, (I have been thru three) 12’ head!! I have had the best luck so far with a mag24. No way will I throw another sealed shaft pump on it (no mater what they say). I have also been playing around with the idea of replacing my fishing line pull rope, to a ss thrd rod, (just for fun)

SZWAB, finding the solenoids & relays was actually the only hard part of this. I went with 24v cuz I had a big 24v power supply, and thought that that might do for pulling power. I would not use 110 near water in any application like this. Keep looking I am sure you will find something. I got both items from an electrical wholesaler here near me. I don’t know what these things were origionally intended for, but maybe some pics (somebody please help me, I have broadband and can send them to you) can clarify what is going on. The relays were nothing special and I was almost going to make my own solenoids because I thought these might not be big enough. But I just picked the ones out with the largest dia shaft, and they worked for me. The relays actually have a little led on them to let you know when they are doing what they are doing, kind of cool to watch, I guess. Anyways, I wish you all the best of luck with your surges, and all I can say is just keep fiddling around with them, and eventually you will get exactly what you want. \

Tom

[melev]

Tom, I'll do it. Just send me the pictures and I'll host or put them together on a page for you. Simple link that way. Email me at melev@swbell.net

[MarkS]

Originally posted by KingT420
I have also been playing around with the idea of replacing my fishing line pull rope, to a ss thrd rod, (just for fun)

McMaster-Carr has titanium rod. A 12" x 1/4" titanium rod is $15.

[psycho_clown]

real like the look of these will be following this thread close



Kristopher

[Bamm Bamm]

you can use photobucket.com for free to link and add them here it's really simple to use

[Freed]

Originally posted by melev
In our ongoing effort to continually improve Reef Central, the RC Staff would like to encourage everyone not to reply to threads with “Just Tagging Along� or other noncontributory comments. These kinds of replies are discourteous to the others who are subscribed to that thread as this causes them to reopen threads that have no useful additional information. It also makes it difficult for the moderators and Team RC members to find threads with no replies thus not serving the thread originator. If you want to follow a thread of interest, please use the “subscribe to this thread� link below the quick reply box. The effect will be the same. You can easily track the thread of interest in the subscribed threads section of your “My RC� page.

We would like to thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.

Regards,

The RC Staff


This insert needs to be added alot more when people decide to "just tag along". Maybe folks will finally get the hint and stop "tagging". I used to do it just like alot of people and have since found the "Subscribe to this thread" link at the bottom. I know it must take up band width too although not much but it is still annoying when I open up an e-mail hoping for some additional thread info and all I see is "just tagging along". Waste of my time and everyone elses. Just my $.02 Thanks.

[rufio173]

Freed,

You know the funny thing is don't those tags by the moderators also bring you back again...

Just thought that was kind of funny. You know, you look at the thread and it's a tag, and then later you come back and find out it's a tag of a tag saying that you shouldn't tag!

Hahhahahahaa.

Peace,
John H.

[KingT420]

melev
I will send you the pics tomorrow, I am swamped.

You guys and your tags... crack me up!!!

Thanks to all for the intrest & ideas!!

[tsalter]

king will the actuators on mcmaster carrs site work? They had large ones with 1/2 rods but i think they pulled only 120 ounces oof weight. will this be enough to open the flapper?

Great stuff

T

[KingT420]

T, I am not familiar with those, 120oz might do it, I don’t know. Post a link, I king of think not. Some kind of servo could be used in lieu of the solenoid, but I think getting the circuit to control a electronic gate valve will be my next step.

Sorry to all about not getting the pics up yet. I promise soon.

[brackishdude]

Awesome design!

Just a thought: using a vertical-pipe-with-air as a dampener is a great idea. Plumbers use them frequently as quick fixes to quiet groaning pipes when shutting off faucets in old houses.

The problem is that eventually the air is dissolved into the water, and the noise returns. This could be catastrophic in your case.

My recollection is that there is a cheap spring-loaded fixture sold for this use that is not subject ot this problem.

I would recommend you invest in one, or at least make regular air refills in your pipe. If I understand your design, this would just require completely emptying your return pipe periodically.

Good luck!

[Chrismo]

What are you using for the bottom float? I've got the ones from floatswitches.net, but they arent submersable.

I'd think that anything that would power a relay would not be able to be submnerged... Unless it was one of those air pressure level controllers. like the Tsunami AT1 ?? But those are too expensive.

[H20ENG]

You need to thread them into the end of a pipe cap so you can submerge the pipe. The threads are 1/8"MPT. Then your leads come out of the top.

[Chrismo]

Ahh ya that makes sense. And now that I look at the float closer, it looks liek it might be waterproof too. But threading it sounds safer and gives me a way to mount it easier.

Thanks!

[KingT420]

Chrismo, the idea of the relay is do they do not have to cary any load. They are magnetic reed type float switches. On E-bay like $5

[wave_happy]

How do I select the proper units that will work together?

I really like the idea of the solenoid operated surge device. But I have no background that would allow me to just "throw something together".

What I want to be able to do:
Detect a low/high water condition (float switch) and activate a solenoid to close (or open (maybe both)) a toilet flapper.


What I have learned from this thread and a bit of research on the net has been very helpful in understanding the concept. But I still have no idea as to what parts to buy that would work together.

Since the solenoid will be operating near water I assume that a “Laminated Solenoid� should be used. For additional safety I would like to use a low voltage power supply. I also anticipate that the unit will switch on and off very frequently. Therefore, I believe that I should use a relay to operate the solenoid. I am not too sure about this since most of the solenoids seem to operate using a very small amount of power. I am OK with a soldering iron and a multi-meter but have a great fear of having to put anything on a circuit board. :rolleyes:

A nice list of parts and where to get them would really make my day!! :)

TIA

[Chrismo]

Ok, so I've got it hooked up (without relays for now), but It doesn't work right.
If I hook it up in parallel only the top float controls the solenoid/flapper. If I hook them up in series, then only the bottom float controls...
Do the relays fix by being hooked up some weird way? I thought they were just triggers.

Anyone else tried this? Dman?
I'm excited to get my surge working!

Chris

[H20ENG]

You need the top float to trigger the relay, and the bottom float to drop it out.
Its the same principle as this:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=280291&highlight=latch+a+relay
but in reverse. In the topoff thread, you are filling a reservoir, in the surge application, you are emptying it.
HTH,
Chris

[tsalter]

Hey Chris,

Trying to search for how to size a surge for a tank but haven't had any luck and was wondering that due to this design and/or a ball valve surge that salt creep wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks

tom

[H20ENG]

That is the beauty of this type or ball valve type surges!
NO bubbles = NO salt creep.
The flapper or ball valve closes before the surge line can suck air.
AFA sizing the surge tank, It can be the volume of your tank or more IF the overflows and sump can handle it. Realistically, look at what your sump can handle. You can size the surge to that amount.
Take care of any limited overflow capacity by putting in an adjustment valve in the same line as the ballvalve / flapper. Set the valve to what your overflows can handle, then let the surge open and close.
Chris

[tsalter]

Great! thanks!

[SERVO]

KingT420

Today is hopefully easter for this thread; Any pictures?

Just go to photobucket.com and up load the pictures as stated.

I am researching for a good surge system and I am very interested in this design. Unfortunately actuated ball valves are $800 bucks a pop!!! Ouch. I am a total dolt when it comes to all of this electronics stuff.

Could you put together a "shopping list".

Any updates? Antectdotes

Thank you so much for all of your help.

[culdublvd]

He never posted pics because he never got it working. This whole set-up was, and still is a pipe dream of KingT420. He did try to get it to work, but last I knew, he still never had it dialed in.

[SERVO]

So does any one have an internal CSD in use?

[H20ENG]

Servo,
You can get a motorized valve for $300-ish, plus about 50-75 for the controls. I belive the Jandy electric pool valves are only $150-ish. You have to set them upo a bit different, control wise, but they work too.

An internal CSD would be a RCSD, using air to displace the water in the submerged container until it begins a "reverse siphon" and the water floods back in. I've built a few and they really move some water, but at the cost of a LOT of noise and salt spray. The spray can be contained and drained back, the noise is a bit harder to control.

I am currently building a tank with a RCSD built in. I'll post it someday when I finish it.