DIY Refugium

[Algae Blenny]

I am really confused about setting up a refugium under my ten gallon. I have an extra 5 gallon tank and before I setup my new 10 gallon nano reef I want to have this ready to go. Ok...If I take my 5 gallon and put it under the 10 put one of these on the 10 (http://marinedepot.com/a_of.asp?CartId=) (The CL50). Attach a hose to it and put it into the 5. Then attach a pump to a hose and bring it back into the 10. Would that work and if it would what pump would you reccomend. Also how would I get the rate to go the same (You know so that the water wouldnt be pulled into the tank faster then it is pulled out)?

Thanks and Help would be appreciated

[quiksilver]

The overflow box will keep the water flow the same, thats the whole point of having one. As the pump in the fuge pumps water into the tank and the level rises, it falls into the overflow and is put back into the fuge. If the pump stops pumping the water level in the tank stops rising and no falls into the overflow back into the fuge.

This is all theoretical and supposedly neither the tank nor the sump or fuge in your case is supposed to overflow. The only time people run into problems is when the overflow becomes unprimed. When it loses its prime, the pump in the fuge will keep pumping and the water will rises in the tank. You will end up with a very wet floor if this happens.

Heres the deal IMO. Don't buy a CPR overflow if overflow is the way you decide to go. You can't really use an intank overflow since its a 10g nano (not really an option there). What I would do is buy a HOT fuge or make a weir overflow box if you want to utilize the 5 gallon u already have. Directions on the DIY weir that won't lose its prime can be found here: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/overflow.html
and for a good pic of it:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/sump.html

Good luck,
Evan

PM me for further questions

[Algae Blenny]

I am now thinking of doing a 20 gallon. I might have room for the HOT model, if I dont Im gonna use a 10 gallon under the tank.

[quiksilver]

In my short experience thus far with reef tanks I wouldn't use the HOT model fuge. It doesn't look very pleasant when you have all that growing on the back of your tank and don't forget the light will have to be left on longer on top of the fuge. Some people leave their fuge light on 24/7! That can take away from my sleep.

If you want to do it right then use these plans. I just drew them for someone else and it will work well under the tank and is cheap if you just buy a 10 gallon tank at petco for 8.99.

good luck,
Evan

[Algae Blenny]

My plans changed now I am probably doing a 30 Cube. Will you recommend that overflow? And should I still use a Mag 5 Pump?
Thanks

[quiksilver]

don't use a cpr overflow for the love of crap!!! make a weir box as seen here:

http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/overflow.html

You can thank Marc Levenson for that

Good Luck,
Evan

[webpolk]

Originally posted by quiksilver
don't use a cpr overflow for the love of crap!!! make a weir box as seen here:


Out os curiousity, what is the difference between this one and the CPR model? They appear to use the same design. If people dislike the CPR model because it loses prime and the airline gets clogged, why won't this weir do the same?

I ask these questions only because I am about to design my sump/refugium/overflow and would like to make informed decisions before building all this.

Thanks,
Steve

[Vincerama2]

That's a good question. When I read the weir box plans (which is excellent, btw) I really couldn't tell the difference between that and the CPR overflow!

I am planning to build a similar overflow box, but I'm going to use two U syphons (actually, pcv pump with two 90 degree elbows) so that if one loses suction, the other might still function, and I will add airlines with check valves running to some powerhead to keep the air free (or maybe not to the powerhead, I dunno yet).

Vince

[quiksilver]

These are very good questions that I believe I can help out with. The first weir box that Marc (melev) attempted was much like the CPR overflow. However he didn't like the design b/c it often lost its prime.

If you will look further in his site which I will now provide again:
http://www.melevsreef.com./
you will see that on his second attempt he made a perfect weir box that never lost its prime.

Using the same basic design, he added an air line on top of the siphon that hooks into a powerhead to pull out any bubbles that happen to pass through. The second thing he changed which I will go ahead and say is ingenius, he added a wall in the second box on the outside of the tank as he explains. This wall keeps water on the last part of the siphon even when the sump pump stops putting water in the tank. Therefore even though the flow stops, the weir box stays primed. Like Marc says on his site and I'm gonna go ahead and agree: "perfect".

Good Luck,
Evan

[webpolk]

I still do not see the difference.

Melevs design
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/overflow.jpg

CPR design
http://www.cpraquatic.com/product%20images/CS102-2.jpg

What am I missing here?

Thanks,
Steve

[quiksilver]

if you want I can do the search for you and show you all the complaints about how much CPR overflows suck a**.

[quiksilver]

Personally I don't know the exact reasons why they suck b/c I refuse to try them after all the negative feedback I have gotten about them on these forumns. That is why I use these forumns, to learn from others' mistakes so that I can save money and time by not making the same ones they made.

Good Luck,
Evan

[webpolk]

quicksilver, I think you are missing my point. I am not disagreeing with you about CPR's, just curious what the difference is in these that would make them not suck-***. Does anyone know? I mean, they look identical to me.

[quiksilver]

I agree with you... I would like to know the exact difference. Lemme PM melev and send him a link to this thread and see if he can't help out.

[melev]

Hi guys,

When I designed the first weir, it was off a very tiny picture I found in a google search. Not only do I feel that pictures are kept that small to avoid people copying the simple design, but I felt other similar boxes were insanely overpriced.

My LFS was asking $100 for their setup, with U tubes! Anyway, I thought I'd attempt to make my own weir, and materials ran about $16. Plus, I had enough scrap left over for Weir II. :lol:

What makes this one different from the CPR? Well, it works. The CPR is notorious for failure.

Now, why does it fail? The only way a weir can fail is when air is sucked into the inverted channel. The more air the accumulates, the less water can pass over. That slows it but doesn't necessarily denote failure.

The way to avoid failure is if your inner box is deep enough to accumulate water but not air bubbles. If the box is too shallow, it will not suck the surface water into the weir, and you'll end up with the oily skin on the surface of the tank.

One way I got around that was to make a set of teeth that fit into my weir, which are adjustable. As you build your own, you can find the perfect zone to get water and still not air bubbles.

The use of Black acrylic for the inverted chamber avoids nuisance algae growth within, which is really hard to clean out. I made a black cover for mine, that I can remove. In essence, it is a shield, blocking light from illuminating that area and no algae grows. Green Hair Algae is one that can cause severe blockage, even total obstruction.

The outerbox needs to have the baffle, to trap the water in the inverted chamber. If that isn't there, when the water level drains from the outer box into your sump, the siphon will be broken. Once the siphon is broken, the tank no longer drains. The return pump keeps pushing water up until your tank overflows all over the floor.

I decided in the Weir II to add a short nipple at the apex of the inverted channel, to suck out air as it occurs with a powerhead in my tank. Since my tank had many powerheads anyway, it was easy to run a length of <b>black</b> tubing from the top of the weir to the intake of a powerhead. If a small amount of air accumlates in the overflow, it is quickly sucked out and blown into the display.

My tank has never lost siphon, never overfilled, or given me reason to lose sleep. And I didn't have to pay an arm and a leg to accomplish this.

[quiksilver]

ownage

[webpolk]

Thanks for the reply Marc.

I was already going to implement several of your awesome design ideas for my refugium and sump, and really needed that detail you just gave me to do the weir well.

Awesome work on all your stuff. You and about a 1/2 dozen or so of others on this board have helped me see that I can do most of this stuff too.

BTW- I am in the DFW area as well. Do you shop Saltwater Paradise much? I love the new store and he has a huge selection of corals. Prices are fair too.


Thanks again for your awesome DIY articles, I have read them over and over and over...

Steve

[melev]

Steve, I got to talk to Evan on the phone this evening. Without cluttering up the thread, I do want you guys to know that we have an awesome club DFWMAS (http://www.dfwmas.com) here for the metroplex and you guys are invited to check out what it is like.

The May meeting was at Saltwater Paradise, but I was in the hospital after emergency surgery the weekend before so I've yet had the opportunity to visit your store. I'm going to have to drive out there some time.

I'm glad my website is helpful. After all, that was my goal. As ideas pop into my head, I try to add new things that are helpful to others. Hopefully. ;)

[webpolk]

Hey Marc, I hope I did not mis-speak. I merely work in Las Colinas, so I learned of his store. I do not work there, just a happy "new" customer that drove bye one day after getting lost in the area...:eek:

Anyways, I have several friends in the area that are also active reefers and I think it would be fun to meet some other reefers in the area.

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion and for the hijacking of this thread.

Steve

[melev]

Originally posted by webpolk
Hey Marc, I hope I did not mis-speak. I merely work in Las Colinas, so I learned of his store. I do not work there, just a happy "new" customer that drove bye one day after getting lost in the area...:eek:


No, you didn't misspeak, I was just saying that the club had a meeting in that very store that you checked out, and that I missed it unfortunately.

I'm really not fond of driving in Dallas, and avoid it unless necessary. Club meetings are necessary, of course!!!! :p It forced me to check out the Dallas World Aquarium last January, which was fantastic. I took my mother there last month, and we discovered that massive tropic forest full of creatures, including manatees, which blew me away. I had no idea all that stuff was in there!

Was there another topic in this thread? :lol: Sorry, guys!

[andyp]

hey guys, I read your thoughts on the CPR overflow. I gotta say that it works great for me. I have the CPR 100. The only logical arguments here are two fold. 2 Yes the price is a bit steep. 2 Following the plans given above, can a person do the craftmanship?
Just my thoughts
Andrew

[webpolk]

Originally posted by andyp
2 Following the plans given above, can a person do the craftmanship?
Just my thoughts
Andrew

I hope to test this out soon. If it is simple enough as it sounds, I will post results for all you nah-sayers/wonderers.

Steve

[melev]

can a person do the craftmanship?

Well, I did. And it was the first project I ever did working with acrylic. ;)

[Dallas_Joser]

I have the CPR 102 I think, the dual 1" pipes on the outside box. I love it it works great for me. I have it siphoning to my sump from the top barb. I have been home for my power failures and have restarted it when needed.
I had a lifereef overflow but the flow was too little through the U tubes they provide. In contrast the cpr handles my mag 18 with 4 feet of head or 1200 gallons an hour.



I have a flood sensor ($ 5 at fry's) that I hooked up to a relay that powers the pump. In essence when ever the tank water goes too high the pump shuts down and an audible alarm is heard. I also added a timer to keep the pump off time about 3 minutes so that it wouldn't be cycling on and of too fast. This prevents the pump from flooding the house. Of course all this is powered directly from my 12v battery which runs my DIY UPS and is contunuosly being charged.

[melev]

I have the CPR 102 I think, the dual 1" pipes on the outside box. I love it it works great for me. I have it siphoning to my sump from the top barb. I have been home for my power failures and have restarted it when needed.
I had a lifereef overflow but the flow was too little through the U tubes they provide. In contrast the cpr handles my mag 18 with 4 feet of head or 1200 gallons an hour.

The U tubes are a different configuration. I have an overflow like that for my 55g, and even with 2 1" tubes, the 1.25" drain can't keep up with the return pump.


I have a flood sensor ($ 5 at fry's) that I hooked up to a relay that powers the pump. In essence when ever the tank water goes too high the pump shuts down and an audible alarm is heard. I also added a timer to keep the pump off time about 3 minutes so that it wouldn't be cycling on and of too fast. This prevents the pump from flooding the house. Of course all this is powered directly from my 12v battery which runs my DIY UPS and is contunuosly being charged.

You are a wiring guru! I need to invite you over to go nuts some time. :D

[Dallas_Joser]

The cpr has no u tubes, I was talking about the lifereef overflow. I think I may have confused myself or others.

hehe

I'm taking classes for electronics for a reason (wanted to design aquarium controller but damn the classes are hard).

Right now the flood controller and timer are two seperate circuits joined by a spiders nest of wires. I was hoping to etch my own pc board from radio shack/ FRY's and incorporate all the components on one board. Then all people have to do is connect the flood probe, power supply and the pump. I'm still figureing on wheater to power from a dual 6 volt battery configuration for power failure reasons or just use a 12v transformer. enough babbleing see what you made me do, hehe.

doh, I just realized a pump cant run when the popwer is out so a simple transformer will work, but not for ups people though.

[Vincerama2]

If you are building your own then...


1) If you are afraid of losing suction with your U tube...why not put 2 (or three) u-tubes on? It should not affect flowrate,as that is determined by the drain in the outer box. If one fails, the other one will keep working. I don't know how you can detect a failed sipon though, if the tubes are not clear.

2) Rather than have a baffle in the outer box, why can't you make the drain a standpipe such that its opening is higher than the siphon opening. If the pump fails, then the outer box will only drain to it's opening, which is above the siphon output..which will maintain siphon. ??

3) By the way, I think you can get most of the necessary bits and pieces at Home Depot (if one is in your area!). I found hose barbs there for $1.36, rather than the $7 that some online aquarium shops want for it. Oh, and black vinyl tubing, which sells for 1.50/foot at the online stores ... I bought 10 feet for 3 bucks, and it actually says "Use for fish tanks" on the label! (ie, it's safe for aquariums)


V

[melev]

<b>1) If you are afraid of losing suction with your U tube...why not put 2 (or three) u-tubes on? It should not affect flowrate,as that is determined by the drain in the outer box. If one fails, the other one will keep working. I don't know how you can detect a failed sipon though, if the tubes are not clear.</b>

The problem with multiple tubes is when you have too many, you are actually flowing more slowly and air accumulates instead of racing right through and out on the other side. Of course, increase the flow and the bubbles go away, but there you are again trying to get the perfect balance. :D

<b>2) Rather than have a baffle in the outer box, why can't you make the drain a standpipe such that its opening is higher than the siphon opening. If the pump fails, then the outer box will only drain to it's opening, which is above the siphon output..which will maintain siphon. ??</b>

Yes, that will work, <b>IF</b> the standpipe is tightly sealed at the base with teflon tape. If it is just screwed in or standing in loosely, water will continue to trickle out and eventually break the siphon if the power is off for a good duration. Having the baffle is simply the best insurance to avoid that occurance.

<b>3) By the way, I think you can get most of the necessary bits and pieces at Home Depot (if one is in your area!). I found hose barbs there for $1.36, rather than the $7 that some online aquarium shops want for it. Oh, and black vinyl tubing, which sells for 1.50/foot at the online stores ... I bought 10 feet for 3 bucks, and it actually says "Use for fish tanks" on the label! (ie, it's safe for aquariums)</b>

Yep, HD has lots of good stuff, but not always what I need in the right size. Bulkheads are virtually impossible to find, for example. And hose barbs can be the right shape and wrong size, or vice versa. :rolleyes:

[Vincerama2]

Thanks for clearing up the siphon issue! I will design around it and try to use a baffle as well!

You are right about bulkheads! Lots of PVS connectors, some that are ALMOST bulkhead like, but don't quite screw in all the way (I guess to keep a tight seal, the threaded areas diameter increases as you screw things together?)

V

[melev]

Originally posted by Vincerama2
Thanks for clearing up the siphon issue! I will design around it and try to use a baffle as well!

You are right about bulkheads! Lots of PVS connectors, some that are ALMOST bulkhead like, but don't quite screw in all the way (I guess to keep a tight seal, the threaded areas diameter increases as you screw things together?)

V

FWIW, my 55g (bought it used) came with a overflow box with a single 1" U tube. I added a second one hoping (yeah right!) that the two tubes would be able to keep up with a Mag 9.5 return pump. It didn't. I also added a small baffle inside the box to make sure my siphon wasn't broken.

The 1.25" drain extends up almost 2", but it wasn't enough to guarantee the siphon was assured. Plus this box was designed to use a sponge filter(round hollow tube) on the drain to raise the water level. That worked, but it #1) didn't make it silent, and #2) created more nitrates by the hour.

The baffle was an easy fix, and I was <b>very lazy</b> and simply inserted 4 pieces of airline tubing (rigid and flex..what I had handy) to keep it silent. Looks rediculous when you see those four tubes held in place with clothespins, but I keep saying I'm going to build a better one so why mess with it? :D

Yes, plumbing diameter does increase on most fittings, which I find to be extremely aggravating. Teflon tape can help in some situations, but other times you need the fitting to screw all the way down, and can't. As an example, I can't seem to find any parts to make my own bulkheads! Oh well, Marine Depot always has them when I need them. ;)

[quiksilver]

Please post the DIY flood sensor setup or PM it to Melev or me.

Thanks

[Vincerama2]

http://www.ajfittings.com/performance_charts.htm

Some information on pipe fittings!

Oh yeah, I guess if you had access to a die/tap set you could probably make bulkhead fittings with those increasing radius (sealing) pipe threads...

V

[Dallas_Joser]

quicksilver,

The sensor can be found at FRY's in the electronic hobby section.
You can use it as is with a 9 volt battery and screw it into your canopy just above the aquarium. What I do is solder some stainless steel nails to the botton end points. This way just the nails reach inside the lip of the aquarium.

There are some new kind online for $10 though I've never used these.

Half way down the page:
http://www.mpja.com/viewallpict.asp?dept=70&main=61

WATER DETECTOR KIT WD-2
555 Osc. circuit drives speaker (INCLUDED) to sound alarm when water level rises on remote sensor board and changes the conductivity between the 2 contacts. 6-12V DC Operation.
Main Board .8" X .75" Sensor board 1.25" sq.

DIY pump shut off
I attach two wires to the alarm output to power a 12v relay. Connecting the relay is a little more complicated and you'll need a timer too to keep the pump from cycling on and of too fast. But for a simple flood alarm you cant beat these sensors.

[melev]

Jose, that is a very cool site!

I've had a project in mind that needs a guy like you to help me bring it to fruition. We need to get together some time to see if it could be done.

That temperature probe listed on your link would be great to cycle fans on and off as needed. It still needs a power supply, a relay and the electric bar the relay plugs into, and some type of water proof case I'd guess, but it would be a nice option to automate fans.

Hmmm. I guess I see why the IceCap variable fans are so pricey. :rolleyes:

[apophis924]

Has anyone considered Placing the retrn pump on some type of platform or elevate it in the sump. So that if the CPR or any other type of over flow fails, The the return pump would pump water out of the sump unitl it was running dry. In other words the pump intake would be so close to the water of surface of the sump that it would be running dry before it pumped enough water to flood your main tank. Quite a few pumps can run dry for a limited amount of time before they fail. And it is much cheaper and less trouble to replace a return pump than, replace the pump, mop up saltwater, replace dead coral, and listen the the other half bi#tch about all that water on the floor AGAIN.

[melev]

No, this is not a good option.

First of all, the return pump sits in a location of the sump where the water level varies due to evaporation.

Secondly, return pumps can be quite expensive, especially on a larger tank. You don't want to have to replace a Dolphin Ampmaster 3000 yearly, I assure you. ;)

Thirdly, when the pump sucks air and water together, your display tank is filled with tons of bubbles, which some reef inhabitants can't handle.

Finally, with a good overflow box, this isn't even a consideration. Just avoid the CPR and go with a LifeReef, Amiracle, or build one like I did. It takes 30 minutes to make one, and even if it doesn't come out perfectly, it doesn't matter. It just has to work. My first one worked, but wouldn't hold the siphon, so a week later I built the second one displayed in this thread, and it has worked without issue since last August.

The key to running a sump & tank successfully is maintenance and observation. Never just assume all is fine. Take a minute each day to inspect your system and observe your reeflings to make sure all are content. Enjoy your piece of the ocean - enjoy your success.

[Vincerama2]

Looks like what we really want is some kind of failsafe!

What if you make an emergency overflow box, make it smaller by taking out frills like the "anti slurping" 90 degree bend on the intake, and give it an in-tank overflow box that's lip is even (not cut with slots) but slightly higher than the regular skimming overflow. Keep it primed, but not draining.

Then if your main overflow fails, this overflow can take over and you can shunt the overflow either back to the sump or to an emergency bucket/drain. This would just be an "anti-flood" precaution and would still result in pump failure if you can't catch it. Hmm on second thought, that overflow switch sounds mighty good now...

V

[melev]

Vince, if you have a big enough sump, you have nothing to worry about.

My sump under the 55g is 16" tall, so it can hold an additional 10 to 15g of water if need be.

However, if you'd like to setup dual overflows, go for it. I'd love to hear how it works out for you. There is a new article coming out in this month's Reefkeeping Online (hopefully), and it discusses drainlines. Having one drain that works (as in the overflow box) is great, but if it fails, what to do? Having two equal sized drains is better, because if one clogs you have another that can keep up.

Here's one more option to think about. Using a float switch in the main tank. If the water level gets too high, it cuts the power to the return pump to avoid adding any more water. Drawback: When the pump turns off, your tank will drain some water from the top, which lowers the switch and turns the return pump back on. It would turn it on and off every minute or two, but your floor would be dry. :D

One guy just posted this exact setup, except he built in a 10minute delay to avoid wear and tear on the pump. DallasJoser is his name here.

[apophis924]

looks like the best thing to do is. back to basics, watch watch and monitor. Not that it is a chore tokeep an eye on the tank 24/7 LOL, if i didnt have to work to pay for the damn thing I would watch it 24/7.