Cloudy fins on trigger

[mikefish]

I've had my Undulatus for about 3 months now, and for that entire time she has had cloudy patches on her dorsal and/or anal fin. These do not appear to be fuzzy (ie. three dimensional) that I can see, and therefore are unlike the "cotton" that I have seen described here. They are not clearly defined, vary in intensity, and fade very gradually at the edges.

These patches change on a daily basis, waxing and waning and changing location. Sometimes I have thought she was almost free of the them, then they come back.

They do not seem to be causing her much problem however. Sometimes there seems to be a very slight amount of fin degradation where they are most intense, but not to the extent that I would call it "rot".

I try to treat most disease by strengthening the fishes immune system through vitamin enhanced foods, good water quality, stress removal, etc., typically with good results. However as you can see, this situation appears to be chronic.

Any idea of diagnosis or cure?
Mike

[billsreef]

A couple of possibilities come to mind. I'm going to start with a few questions to narrow them down ;)

What are the water test parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and salinity? What are the other tank mates?

[mikefish]

The water parameters are pretty good I think. Zero for all nitrogen compounds, sg about 1.024. Don't typically test for pH so not sure about that. Temp at 79F.

She is basically alone in the tank. I think there may be one small hermit crab left, but I'm not certain that she hasn't done him in. There is a mantis shrimp in the refugium.

She's very tough otherwise - never any signs of other disease.
Mike

[mikefish]

Bump. Someone must have experience with this.
Mike

[billsreef]

Any chance of taking a good picture of these spots? The signs of degradation you mention are of some concern. Leads me to suspect some kind of bacterial or protozoan infection.

[mikefish]

I'll see what I can do over the weekend. I have a digital camera, but it is not very good quality and may not be able to capture the kind of detail we need. Plus it needs batteries (I can fix that part).

I have in fact seen what appears to be the same malady in my 180 FOWLR, although never in my reef. I occurs primarily on my hispidus puffer, and sometimes very slightly on my juvi koran, and I have in the past put it down to amyloodinium, a disease which I am not otherwise familiar with. It is never an issue with the puffer however as the patches appear (sometimes after a stressing event) and go away in a couple of days. So if this is the same thing and is caused by a pathogen then it might be able to survive in a tank for extended periods.

I don't like the idea of bacteria as that would require antibiotics, which would wreak havoc with the beneficial bacteria in the tank. I have no idea what is needed to kill protozoa.
Mike

[mikefish]

Well, I just don't have the equipment to get a useful picture up I'm afraid.

The condition seems stable on the trigger: The anal fin is fairly heavily involved and the the edge is a little ragged, but the dorsal is clear and the situation isn't progressing.

Unfortunately the juvi koran has suddenly lost 1/2 of one of her pec fins to this (I think it's the same condition, not 100% sure). This is at the same time that the puffer, who is typically more susceptible, is completely clear of the stuff.

I've searched Bob Fenner's WWM and found some references to similar maladies on his FAQ's, but he doesn't seem to have a very clear diagnosis, or treatment recommendation.

So I'm feeling kinda helpless here. I've heard of using "medicated food" (how much more of a generalization could you have? Antibiotic? Antifungal?), but can't seem to locate any for sale. Do you make this stuff somehow?
Mike

[mikefish]

I wrote to the great folks at Wet Web Media about this problem. Got a great reply and have made some progress in understanding the problem. I'm pasting the email string below.
Mike

Marina
Sorry, I use "guys" in the inclusive, unisexual sense! But thank you for the detailed response. You have solidified for me what I thought I had been seeing elsewhere - that it is probably bacterial.

The best thing you've done however is the calling into question my testing. When I said excellent parameters, I meant all nitrogen compounds at zero. That's what I thought anyway. I had been using an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals multitest kit that had served well especially for ammonia and nitrite during the cycling of these two tanks. The kit had always registered zero for nitrates. However when I used a much older LaMotte nitrate test last night I got much different numbers. The 180 is at about 45ppm, and the 55 is at about 16ppm. I tested the reef with the LaMotte as well as a control and got zero, as it typically is.

So there are environmental stressors present. Since none of the fish seem to be in mortal danger at the moment, I am going to focus on reducing those nitrate levels, and see if the fish aren't able to resist the infection better. This is how I've dealt with disease in the past and it has been largely successful.

Thank you for your help!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: WWM FAQ Crew [mailto:crew@mail.wetwebmedia.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 4:50 PM
To: Spirawk, Michael
Subject: Re: cloudy/blotchy fins


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---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Spirawk, Michael" <michael.spirawk@gstleather.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:30:48 -0400

>Hey guys
>><sigh> And gals, Michael, Marina here today. ;)
>Been through the Google search of your FAQ’s but haven’t been able to
>find much of help so far…I have 2 FOWLR’s set up: a 55 with just a 4� undulated trigger; and a 180 with an 8� hispidus puffer, juvi Koran angel and Niger trigger, coral beauty, and 2 purple firefish. Both tanks show similar problems with fish with cloudy fins. The cloudiness occurs in patches of varying sizes and is fairly diffuse and irregular, especially at the edges of the patches. The patches can appear and disappear over the course of a day, or they may persist. They can be small, or cover most of the fin. They do not appear to have any “thickness� to them – that is they are not obviously fuzzy or clumpy looking.
>>This would tend to rule out fungus (which is usually NOT wont to "just
>>disappear"), and rule in some sort of low-grade bacterial infection.
>The cloudy patches do not appear to be composed of individual smaller
>spots such as if there were individual parasites. They
occur mostly on the undulated trigger and the puffer, but also sometimes on the Koran. I’ve not seen them on any other fish. The undulated has rarely been without them in the 4 months I have had her.
>>Curious, do you quarantine all fish for 30 days before introduction to
>>display tanks?
>When they are persistent there are usually signs of fin degradation at
>the edges. This has been happening lately on the undulated’s anal fin. Also, the Koran has lost ½ of one of her pec fins this week to what I think is this problem.
>>I would suspect same.
>There have thus far been no other symptoms. No scratching, accelerated
>respiration, or loss of appetite. Water parameters are all great on both tanks. The only environmental issue I know of is some temp swings this summer on the order of 2-3 degrees per day that we are fighting with evaporative cooling (fans). I feed a wide variety of frozen prepared and whole foods including lots of nori for the angel, and all fish are growing nicely.
>>I'm suspect of statements along the lines of "water params
>>normal/great/acceptable". I, personally, really like to know first what test kit is being used (brand really does make a difference in quality), as well as age of said kit. The fish wouldn't be experiencing these difficulties in nature, and while we cannot test for everything, what we can test for is usually associated with such persistent problems. I'm still leaning towards low-grade bacterial infection.
>I’ve not been able to identify this problem anywhere except in general
>vague references to similar symptoms, sometimes with “bacteria� mentioned somewhere along the line.
>>This is because it is usually outside the scope/abilities of the
>>average hobbyist to give more than rough details. Nailing down the pathogen responsible literally requires a small lab, including Petri dishes and microscopes. At this point I STRONGLY recommend you get ALL the fish into suitably sized quarantine facilities. These need not be actual fishtanks, they can be Rubbermaid containers--anything chemically inert, watertight, and suitably strong for the amount of water held within. I would NOT attempt to treat the animals while in the display. In quarantine I would begin a regimen of Spectrogram, Melafix, or one of the two Maracyns, all broad spectrum antibiotics. I prefer Spectrogram myself. I would continue this course with copious, large water changes, and perform aggressive skimming and large water changes on the display tanks. I consider a large w/c to be 50% or better.
>What do you think it is, and what can I do about it? The undulated can
>be freshwater dipped, but not the puffer or angel (the puffer would freak out/blow up, and I can’t catch the angel). I’ve heard references to medicated foods, but never seen them for sale…what are they?
>>The medicated foods are quite difficult to find, to the best of my
>>knowledge, though some have found suppliers with old stocks. I wouldn't bother feeding old food for efficacy reasons and more.
>Would they be helpful? I of course would prefer not to treat the
>entire tanks.
>>You are better off not treating the entire tank. The puffer can be
>>dipped, yes, it will "freak out", but a f/w dip will do nothing in
>>event of bacterial infection. However, in the q/t you can lower the
>>salinity, I would go with 1.015 to 1.010 (this is hyposalinity, and is
>>also very effective with parasitic infections). This helps reduce the
>>osmotic pressure differences between the fishes' bodies and
>>surrounding environment. Steven Pro and Anthony Calfo are FAR better
>>versed in this subject than I, so I'm hoping that if they see
>>other/better/objectionable treatment options they'll speak up. Do
>>know that if you attempt to change salinity in a tank with inverts
>>they will suffer, and may likely die, also, the antibiotics will kill
>>off ALL bacteria, including beneficial species. Best of luck, Marina

[ATJ]

Originally posted by mikefish
The 180 is at about 45ppm, and the 55 is at about 16ppm. I tested the reef with the LaMotte as well as a control and got zero, as it typically is.

So there are environmental stressors present. Since none of the fish seem to be in mortal danger at the moment, I am going to focus on reducing those nitrate levels, and see if the fish aren't able to resist the infection better.
Mike,

Nitrate is essentially non-toxic and should not cause any problems for the fish. Anything detectable is undesirable in a reef tank but your levels should cause no alarm in a FO or FOWLR. There is nothing wrong with take steps to lower the nitrate, but I doubt it will do much.

If they have a bacterial infection that is not clearing up, treating in a treatment tank will be the best option.