My Carbon-Fiber 230 gal Tank

[salt lick]

I'm getting close to wetness!
Just finished testing my DIY earthquake resistant glass tank (hydro test, no shaking).

Specs:
l x w x h = 48 x 34 x 33.5 approx 230 gals
sides are 3/4" thick, low iron plate glass, ground and polished edges. Glass is inset into a Carbon/Kevlar 3-D picture frame (see attached). bottom is fiberglass/PVC structural foam sandwich panel. No center brace, open top, built into wall.

corner overflow weir is 8 x 10"
I like the scratch resistance of glass and the flex of the composite frame. Std glass tanks have silicone joints that are structural (joints are loaded in tension and peel). peel is very weak. My tank has the glass mechanically retained by the " 3-D picture frame"; the silicone is only a gasket in compression (no corner peel).

[salt lick]

the kevlar is dyed blue, carbon is the black fibers.

[salt lick]

view from kitchen

[Seth]

Holy ... That's sweet!

[turtlespd]

salt,

Nice work...i was also thinking of making a carbon fiber tank but heck no, i rather use it on my car. Did you make a mold just to make the frame? It looks really smooth. I guess aerospace skills come in there. Or did you use Vacuum? Lookkkkksweetttt

[goofball310]

Originally posted by turtlespd
salt,

Nice work...i was also thinking of making a carbon fiber tank but heck no, i rather use it on my car. Did you make a mold just to make the frame? It looks really smooth. I guess aerospace skills come in there. Or did you use Vacuum? Lookkkkksweetttt

For some reason I new you'd rather put it on your car. Don't worry though, you're not the only one.:D

[salt lick]

its kind of out there

been lurking here for some time, decided to share my progress.

here is a pic of the back side of the installation. shows the two 13" dia Sun Pipes I just installed.

Tank can be viewed on all 4 sides, one is inside the "equipment room" (adjacent closet)

[salt lick]

Thanks again,
I made a female tool, and did a contact layup without vacuum bagging. it was a lot of work filling the pin holes.

the outsde is one ply of the carbon/kevlar (vanity ply), the rest is scraps from the shop. The bottom and corners have 80#/cu ft Divinycell core.

[skylsdale]

Can we get some more description/pics of the 3D picture frame idea...I'm not getting it.

[salt lick]

the tank frame is outside the glass, just like a picture frame.
the glass, shown in green, is inside the frame and pushes out against the carbon fiber frame shown in tan. the blue is a structural foam core.

[Merkur]

wow....

um, lemme just say that again.

WOW!


thats the sweetest tank ever!!

what silicone did you use to attach the glass??

dow corning 795??? 999???

note: dc795 is a structural grade sealant which i have personally sizemic tested to 6" + - lateral floor movement with unitized curtain wall framing. 795 is capable of -50%+100% movement.

i cannot atest to its reef safeness, but i can assure that it would be the IDEAL choice given your earthquake design criteria.

[Merkur]

i think i now understand your design a bit better.

in order to properly allow the frame to flex independently from the glass during a siesmic event you would need to allow for a moveable sealant joint.

the dc products mentioned would hold up to this movement and would not be weak in adhesion (as you say "peel"). the sealants can achieve 100% elongation without adhesive or cohesive failure as long as the installation is done correctly. proper joint design includes: at least 1/4" wide sealant joint, at least 1/8" thick at the thinnest portion, two sided adhesion, and at least 1/4" sealant contract surface between the glass and the substrate.

you would probobly have to test the sealant adhesion at the carbon fiber frame. 100% elongation must be achieved without failure. if the sealant doe not bond DC P5200 adhesion promoter would work.

[salt lick]

I used GE 1200 Construction (one part acetic cure) silicone
FDA approved
very good shear strength

[quiksilver]

and with the kevlar you wont have to worry about stray bullets either.... haha jk, that is the sweetest tank i have ever seen... glad i dont live in earthquake central b/c this hobby is expensive enough without earthquake safe setups... good luck man let us know about ur progress

Evan

[MauiReefer]

WOW thats beautiful..can you mass produce these? I would be interested in one, and if its earthquake proof, im sure it can handle shipping to FL. Anyways great job. PM me if you are interested in a side job...

Jared

[Piero]

absolutely magnifico! Truly pro design and production. I love it!

[newschool]

wow that is really really nice. and sun tubes to boot! great job!

[Gusto]

Okay, i'll be the first to ask, how much is that kevlar doggie in the window??

[salt lick]

OK some one had to ask $
Hmmm tools, labor...material...
better leave labor out, too scary

got the glass wholesale for about $800 (includes ground and polished edges)

epoxy $50-100
"vanity ply" (carbon/kevlar) $50
fiberglass and carbon cloth free shop scraps (I work at a company that builds composite prototype aircraft)

[keigle]

"WOW" my sentiments exactly. That’s the nicest DIY tank I have ever seen. Great job!

[Gusto]

I bet you could start a nice side business for your fellow CA reefers. I know I would want one like if lived in an earthquake prone enviroment. Last thing I would want to do is invest a couple thousand in animals and equip just to watch it crash on the floor. Maybe something to think about.. Looks top grade...

[mr294]

Very, very nice setup. Extremely innovative! :thumbsup:

[H20ENG]

Wiping drool from keyboard...
Salt lick,
I've been thinking of building a carbon tank for awhile, but havent taken the time. Yours is incredible. I can totally appreciate your effort. 'Taint easy.
Is there another frame inside against the glass, or does the glass just get sealed to the outer frame from the inside?

Merkur,
Dow 795 is used extensively for public aquariums. Everyone swears by it. Funny, though, their specs say not for submerged applications.
I am also very interested to hear about the "2 surface adhesion". I have read up quite a bit, and have never heard of it brought up in building tanks, yet. I have read that 3 surface adhesion is bad. Can you elaborate?
Many large tank builders (fiberglass / acrylic) set the acrylic in a groove, with a ton of 795 all around - 3 surface adhesion.
Seems to me it would hold better, not worse. Something to do with expansion and contraction?
Thanks, thanks, thanks!!!
Chris

PS, @#$% thats a nice tank!!!

[karsco]

Very nice setup! So do you plan to supplement those solatubes (or sunpipes) with MH or VHO's? How long are the solatube pipes leading from your roof to the diffusers? I am glad to see somoene finally post that is using these, please keep us updated on your results...

[kmk2307]

Very nice setup! So do you plan to supplement those solatubes (or sunpipes) with MH or VHO's? How long are the solatube pipes leading from your roof to the diffusers? I am glad to see somoene finally post that is using these, please keep us updated on your results...

I am also very interested. By any chance do you have a PAR meter available you could test the solatubes / sunpipes with?

Kevin

[djfrankie]

Beautiful combination of art and technology!

Very impressed, good luck!

Would you post some more pics of the solatubes setup and maybe like the post above do some PAR readings to actually see how much light does get into the tank?

[Putawaywet]

Most excellent !!!!!

I can totally relate to the amount of work put into something like this as I not only have a car with a lot of CF but I also fabricated my car's rear seat delete out of fiberglass. Even though I was quite happy with the results, it was the longest, most tedious construction process I ever went through. I couldn't even imagine doing it again.

Personally, I think the overflow is the sweetest looking part of the tank.

And yes... please keep us updated on how those Solar Tubes work out. Should be most interesting.

Brett

[wedfr]

Holy CRAP thats INSANE!!!!!

Awesome Job

Holy CRAP How do you guys know so much about silicone??? LOL

Keep us updated on your progress and on the Suntubes

[Runic]

the application of CF to your fish tank is amazing. those corners and seams must have been pretty tricky to mold. now, can we contact you about a few weekend projects of car fenders, hoods, and scoops? :D

[salt lick]

Ok, RC web site just lost my reply, S**t
this time I'll paste from MS notepad.

The Sunpipes are 4 ft long, about 2 ft above water line.
I went with two 13" dia pipes instead of one 21", so that they can straddle the 400 watt MH centered below them.

I researched the silicone at the GE website (tough navigating) but good tech info on each product. once I found the right database I searched aquarium and FDA approved. All the silicones listed for aquariums say in the spec sheet"not for submerged applications" goo figure ...Lawyers I guess (not that theres anything wrong with that, LOL). 3 sides on glass hmmmm, I thought about adding acouple of chicken plys inside around the top.

I used a Fork lift to install the glass! see attached pic

I dont have a PAR meter but they are bright ( I live in very dry climate, 5000 ft elevation).
PAR may suffer because the Acrylic dome on top blocks UV!

other lighting:
2 pairs of VHO Actinics (~400 watts) along the front and back perimeter, with a 400 watt Iwasaki MH (PFO ballast) suspended below and between the SunPipes. The MH bulb and reflector will rotate about 270 degrees over the center of my near cubeish tank. this and the VHOs are controlled by a DIY scratch microcontroller based on a PIC 16F877 MCU.

Thanks again for the support, I have learned so much from the RC gang (acrylic,DSB,lighting,diy...)

[Piero]

thanks for the info....you have a great eye for precision and you're plans are really well thought-out.! Jeez I can't stop thinkin about your tank.:) More pics!

[salt lick]

previous forklift pic is my buddy Bob who helped with the glass (heavy) and had a fork lift he could borrow (he lives on an airport.

here is the sump refugium box thing.
LOA fixture above, plan on harvesting some neutered macro algae

notice I didnt do the over under over baffling (I dont think it makes sence to me). when the water spills over, it entranes bubbles. My baffles are more like the water return from a big skimmer air rises water exits at bottom. you cant tell from pic but the baffles are each drilled with ~ 2" holes near bottom and at opposite ends (front to back) so water serpentines right to left and front to back.

[djfrankie]

Originally posted by salt lick
the VHOs are controlled by a DIY scratch microcontroller based on a PIC 16F877 MCU.


What does the microcontroller do for the lights?

Thanks for the info!!

Can't wait to see that baby finished!

[Ray1214]

That is about the only thing I can say....WOW....If I could only talk my wife into it, I would ask how much to build another one...however I know that she who must be obeyed would kick my heiny.

Salt, A dang nice tank. I am about to ask a silly question though, what are the Sun tubes?

Ray

[boogs]

Awesome tank and very nice display area!

Would love to see more pics!

Scott

[Spikehs]

i didn't know either, did a search and came up with this thread:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56125&highlight=Sun+tubes
http://www.solatube.com.au/

[Scuba Dan]

If you dont mind me asking, what did the sun lamps set you back? Never seen one in use. Please post pics when the tank is done.:D

[salt lick]

for those of you interested in car fenders, motorcycle parts...
I am still trying to get the tank done this summer.
But several of the guys I work with in the shop love side jobs and are very good.

[Gusto]

Salt Lick,
You may want to get your design patent before one of the tank companies views it and tries to capitalize on your idea..

[Merkur]

Originally posted by H20ENG
Merkur,
Dow 795 is used extensively for public aquariums. Everyone swears by it. Funny, though, their specs say not for submerged applications.
I am also very interested to hear about the "2 surface adhesion". I have read up quite a bit, and have never heard of it brought up in building tanks, yet. I have read that 3 surface adhesion is bad. Can you elaborate?
Many large tank builders (fiberglass / acrylic) set the acrylic in a groove, with a ton of 795 all around - 3 surface adhesion.
Seems to me it would hold better, not worse. Something to do with expansion and contraction?
Thanks, thanks, thanks!!!
Chris

PS, @#$% thats a nice tank!!!

in a non moving joint you can disreguard allot of the joint design criteria i mentioned above. three sided adhesion and other such no-no's are present all the time when fabricating unit frames ect. BUT when its a moving joint this stuff becomes paramount, ESPECIALLY the 3 sided adhesion rule. if you have two sided adhesion the joint can stretch like a rubber band. if its a three sided adhesion ONE of the three must fail to allow for movement. if you think about it its pretty obvious and thats why i mention it here. if the concept is to have a tank survive an earthquake then the thing to do is to make it flexable and design in movement between rigid materials (we design unit curtainwalls for use in cali that can flop around like a jacobs ladder), your sealant joints are not only your most likely point of failure but your easiest point to allow for movement.

Dow has some VERY good warranty policy's, the best in the industry, but they also engineer in a good bit of CYA. the submersement issue would be an obviouse one. though in building design its used that way all the time, for things like sill can gutters, skylight gutters ect.

i have a very good relationship with DC and recomend the products almost exclusvely, becouse they are, empathicly, the best. escpecially 795, it has all the properties you would want in a sealant. the only downside is that it attracts dirt. obviously not a concern in your tank.

[MrSandman]

Damn! I used to work for an aerospace company and i was partially responsible for producing their carbon cloth. They ended up getting pre-preged going to rocket nozzles and other aircraft structures. We had to literally toss rolls and rolls of this stuff since they couldn't pass visual inspection (supplier issues). Were the "scraps" that you used on this tank similar? Did you fire the carbon cloth at your company? Did you have access to an autoclave for curing? Man, had i known there was another market for lower grade carbon cloth, i would have sold it instead of scrapping it!!

[Merkur]

you didn't know there was a market for that stuff??!!??

go visit rcuniverse.com and see some of the wacky stuff those guys do in the r/c jet forums or the pylon racing forums. those guys are nuts. some of them make reefers look like seriously well adjusted induhviduals.

think its hard explaining $300 pumps to your wife? try explaining $1,000 landing gear or a $6,000 jet engine for your "hobby" just to crash it into the ground at 200mph....

[H20ENG]

Thanks Merkur,
This is how many tanks are constructed (fiberglass with thick acrylic panes):
Black is tank frame
Light blue is glass
dark blue is caulk

[H20ENG]

So is this better?

[H20ENG]

Or this?
Thanks!

[Merkur]

If i wanted a tank to survive a quake, this is how i would glaze it. the only thing i would debate about this design is the spaces between the frame and glass. i show 1/4" at the joints and 3/8" at the head and sill. i might want to make those 1/2" and 3/4" really.

of course, i would have salt lick build me a wicked cool carbon kevlar frame :)

[H20ENG]

I cant see the wording. Is that backer rod down in below the caulk? Waht is the glass sitting on? High density foam blocks?
Thanks!

[Merkur]

this should be more legable. the .jpg compresion really trashes these autocad exports!!

[salt lick]

Merkur,
I cant read your pic, try saving as giff or tif or bmp. jpg trashes text. white backround too.

double sided is good way to go.

[Todd G.]

Very nice and "state of the art"
I have never seen anything like it.
Alot of TLC and craftsmanship went into it.
My hats off to ya'!!.
Todd G.

[Ken Sellick]

You mentioned in your first post that you used a fiberglass/pvc structural sandwich panel. Where can i find out more about these panels? I am planning a 120"Lx48"Wx36"H glass tank and am interested in using other materials for the bottom.
i like the carbonfiber frame design.

[salt lick]

Originally posted by Ken Sellick
You mentioned in your first post that you used a fiberglass/pvc structural sandwich panel. Where can i find out more about these panels? I am planning a 120"Lx48"Wx36"H glass tank and am interested in using other materials for the bottom.
i like the carbonfiber frame design.

the PVC foam inside the sandwich is called Divinacell, its expensive and used in boats and aircraft. Check out the "aircraft spruce and specialty" catalog or their web site. the core increases the strength of a panel with little weight addition. for a tank, particle board or plywood would work also, weight is not a factor. the aircraft spruce and specialty has a lot of the same materials I used and good laymans info.

[salt lick]

Originally posted by Todd G.
Very nice and "state of the art"
I have never seen anything like it.
Alot of TLC and craftsmanship went into it.
My hats off to ya'!!.
Todd G.

thanks again

[Merkur]

lets try it as a .gif!

[H20ENG]

The gif is much clearer, Thanks!
Many people just silicone the one side of the glass up against the front frame of a plywood tank. Would you recommend this, or build the channels into the framing so as to use the backer rod and caulk both sides?
The public aquarium I worked at (S.F., CA) had 320' of acrylic tunnel. It was set in a pocket of elastomeric sealant into the concrete walls. It was surrounded on 3 sides. This was per the drawings, I did not see actual construction. The tube was solvent bonded in 20' sections, and every 40' had an elastomeric expansion joint. Still dont think I'd want to be down there in a quake! I was there for several minor quakes and it all held tight.
Chris

[salt lick]

Originally posted by Merkur
lets try it as a .gif!

Looks good now

[Merkur]

Originally posted by H20ENG
The gif is much clearer, Thanks!
Many people just silicone the one side of the glass up against the front frame of a plywood tank. Would you recommend this, or build the channels into the framing so as to use the backer rod and caulk both sides?
The public aquarium I worked at (S.F., CA) had 320' of acrylic tunnel. It was set in a pocket of elastomeric sealant into the concrete walls. It was surrounded on 3 sides. This was per the drawings, I did not see actual construction. The tube was solvent bonded in 20' sections, and every 40' had an elastomeric expansion joint. Still dont think I'd want to be down there in a quake! I was there for several minor quakes and it all held tight.
Chris

a detail like that could work if a bond-breaker (something sealant won't adhere to) is placed at the edge of the glass.

jeez... why did they use elastomeric sealants? man, nobody i mean NOBODY usess that stuff anymore...

[H20ENG]

Not entirely sure what exactly it was, but everyone said it was " a type of elastomeric sealant":rolleyes:
It was built in 94-95'.

[jman785]

salt lick:

A little late to be finding this post, but holy shiat....nice tank...good design...its easy to see your an engineer :D

- Jared

[salt lick]

thanks for the support
I will keep U posted as I progress

[yessongs]

very nice SL all my r/c cars have carbon chassis lots of $$$, beautiful work

[salt lick]

'

[BonsaiNut]

I missing something major here. Why is it necessary to make the tank joints flexible?

I can understand flexibility with large structures like buildings, etc, but with a small (under 6') aquarium isn't it better just to overengineer the thing and make it super rigid?

Also, my biggest concern with my tank in an earthquake is water loss and rock shifting. So many reef tanks have the water come up within 2" of the rim -- you should have seen my pool after our last major quake in Southern Cal and you would know that isn't sufficient. Also, I would think the greatest risk for glass panel breakage would come from the reef rock inside the tank crashing into the glass panels...

Just my thoughts.

[salt lick]

Originally posted by BonsaiNut
I missing something major here. Why is it necessary to make the tank joints flexible?
Just my thoughts.

Standard glass tanks have 'structural' silicone joints. The silicone in the joint reacts all the loads that the glass (sloshing water) generates. When the tank rocks, the load is not uniformly distributed on the bottom, when the glass bows and pulls, it tends to peel the silicone bond line at the glass. My tank is a frame with the glass retained by the laminate flanges, the silicone is only a sealant. In a conventional tank, once the joint starts to peel, the water acts like a wedge and pow the joint fails. In my design, even if the glass peels from the silicone, when shaking, it will re-seat and probably reseal (an o-ring is not bonded typically, but it seals under load). the glass is extra thick (3/4") for impact of rocks or kids.

[salt lick]

'

[jman785]

3/4" THICK! DAMN!!!!!!!!!! Lets see some updates and pics Salt lick!


- Jared

[Piero]

how's it comin along?

[salt lick]

Just finished re-plumbing second sump to hold Aerofoamer 836 skimmer. Completed bubble free surge tank! pump is constantly filling tank, motorized 1.5" ball valve opens when full, and closes before it empties. Because the ball valve closes gradually (compared to a toilet flapper) there is no water hammer. virtually silent too! also built a Nielson reactor with Hanna magnetic stirrer.
I'll post some pics soon, when the water is back in for the final circulation trials.

[jman785]

Any updates on this beast of a tank? I am interested in your surge setup...

[reefrubble]

Super job. Beautiful tank. I tip my hat to you sir. Ted