calcium reator without Co2?

[mantisshrimp]

Is it possible to make a calcium reactor that doesn't use CO2 to dissolve the media?Like using vinegar instead of the C02 added in small quantities.

[Danables]

vinegar sure if you want to kill everything.. why do you want to use something else?

[Lunchbucket]

i am guessing too much $$ for you mantis right??

sorry i don't think there is another option

Lunchbucket

[Lunchbucket]

i am guessing too much $$ for you mantis right??

sorry i don't think there is another option

Lunchbucket

[Roadtoad]

without the CO2 they are basically undergravel filters

[ADHybrid]

Vinegar wont kill everything. I use vinegar to spike my kalk. I understand the need for an alternate source of acid for aid in dissolving calcium media. I too am a poor reefer!:( If anyone gets a breakthrough on this subject, I wanna be one of the first to know :D

[Lunchbucket]

ADHybrid - i am ONLY guessing but i think Danables was saying in the quantities needed to be functionable it would kill everything

Lunchbucket

[ADHybrid]

Would it really matter about the ammount? The concentration will be the same no matter HOW much you use, so technically you could only use a little bit, let the aragonite sit in it a while, then add it to the tank. Oh wait, This is exactly what I do with my kalk. Damn it, were back to square one!:D

[Lunchbucket]

we are talking about RUNNING a reactor not sitting some ARM in it. the reactor would be ciculating to the tank and the flow would ahve to be SOOO slow and you would ahve to add SOOO much vinegar to get your effluent high enough you would be messing w/ the pH and other stuff w/ vinegar.

hmm, you ever dump in some 1.000 water to a 1.027 tank? it is a concentration of 1.000 but what happens if you add a lot? messes up the tank doesn't it?? not the same type of reaction but an example of how a LITTLE of one thing cannot always be applied to a lot...safely

Lunchbucket

[ADHybrid]

Carbonated water = carbonic acid = co2+H2O

dang it, now you guys got me thinking. IT HURTS!!!:p

[ADHybrid]

Oh, I thought we were talking about a 2 gallon nano, never mind ;)

[Lunchbucket]

still i think for the quantity of vinegar you would need i think you would mess w/ the pH too much

Lunchbucket

[ADHybrid]

cmon peeps, lets throw out some ideas. There has to be some sort of way to run a reactor - the co2!!!!


vinegar
carbonated water
compressed co2, oh wait, thats what we DONT want
:(

[anathema]

I also read a plant thread abotu manufacturing your own C02 using yeast.

Lots of work...

[inLOVEwitHEATHER]

ive seen a reactor wit 2 chambers.... one filled wit crushed coral and the other filled wit sulfar... the water passes through the sulfar first to lower th ph so it could dissolve the coral... but yeh i forgot where i saw this.. you might wanna search for it... sulfar was used to lower the ph..... look it up then post anything if you get anywhere...:strooper: :wavehand:

[jdieck]

The reason thet CO2 is adequate is that besides lowering the PH to disolve the Aragonite, it ocurs naturaly in water, the excess can be blown off the tank and the rest that stays disolved as Carbonic Acid in the tank water in turn reacts to become into bicarbonate and carbonate creating a synergistic effect to build up alkalinity.

This I think will be difficult to find in a replacement chemical.

[Sid]

inLOVEwitHEATHER, what you are thinking of is a Sulphur de-nitrator, same principals as a normal one but you dont have to feed it because it uses a different type of bacteria that uses the Sulphur as a food source, i cant find the one i was loking for but here is a link to a american site that has a de-nitrate/Calcium Reactor in one.




Nitrafix (http://www.nitrafix.com/)

[AnnArborBuck]

You could always just exhale into a large garbage bag everyday. Seal the bag up with an air pump inside and then use that CO2 for your tank. Assuming how much CO2 you need it might just last for a couple of days. Good luck.

[Tim Birthisel]

When I retire I will grow grapes to make wine.
The offgassing CO2 from the fermentation process will no longer be a waste product, I will channel it into a Ca reactor.
Cheers

[Brad A.]

Seriously, I think this is an important topic to think about. I wonder if some of our resident chemists might have ideas for dissolving aragonite. Maybe we could post this thread over in Randy's forum in addition to this forum?

Brad

[Larry Grenier]

So I guess you folks think the Nitrafix product is a farce?

[anathema]

several threads exist, run a forum search fro "vinegar reactor"

I had one up recently.

[jdieck]

As Nitrification / Denitrification lowers PH, I think it could very well work but.... Did I see a bronze valve in the device??

[mantisshrimp]

Ah man,look what I started.How about the carbonated water idea?I know about the yeast,how about when you mix baking soda and vinegar,isn't that CO2?

[Sid]

jdieck yes you did see a bronze, i think brass tap on it, that particular company worries me with quotes like 'no more need for live rock' or 'add more livestock'.
and have a count on the tangs on the opening page and the size of tank they were in.
that was an example of a denitrator/calcium reactor, the one i was looking for i couldnt find.
the idea works by using the output of a Sulphur reactor run over some type of media to add calcium, the one advertised in england specifies a particular type of media thats why i was looking for it.

[Brad A.]

expensive co2!

[Sid]

you could allways go out and buy bottles of fizzy drinks, tap the tops and give then a shake every so offen :D

at the end of the day isnt a bottle of co2 eaiser and more reliable?

[Brad A.]

yes it is!

[jdieck]

I think the idea of a denitrator as a source of low PH could work although I think there might be a bunch lot of new concerns that had to be tested.

Taking our DSB as an example: How much Hydrogen Sulphide and Nitrous and Nitric Oxides will be generated as by products? What will be the actual disolution rate? Can you increase/reduce the rate? and as usual can the claims be scientifically proven? It takes about 300 pounds of sand with anareobic bacteria to reduce nitrates to manageable levels, what is so special about this device that it can do it with such small amount of bacteria? If I assume the bacteria is anaerobic, how do they create this condition on recirculating water? How do they strip the Oxygen out of it? and so on.....

Is anybody willing to spend $500.00 to find out? If it does not work, Is the vendor to be around so as to get our your money back?

[H20ENG]

I dont think I'd get the thing, but FWIW, those globe valves are all plastic, but its molded in a gold color. I've seen plenty of them.
At the end of the day, the CO2 tank is the way to go. You dont want to take a chance with using vinegar or acid, and you dont want to mess with a yeast reactor everyday.
Chris

[MDP]

What you are looking for is the D and D Sulphur Denitraator. Have one on my system as a backup. The idea promoted by STM (for you guys in the US this is a very well respected Marine co in the UK, captive farming frags etc) is that the returned water has a low ph so should be run back into the tank over calcium reactor media to balance the ph. Can confirm that this is true as I replace media, however I am not sure that this cando enough to maintain ph. Would not like to dispense with my Kalkwasser.

STM are selling a new one by Korallin which apparently does the whole lot.

Perhaps check out the STM site (recently reworked) for info on this.
www.s-t-m.co.uk

Matt

[agiacosa]

The freshwater aquatic plants world has been trying to find alternatives to pressurized CO2 for many years. Nothing that consistantly works has been developed.

There are electronic gadgets said to release CO2 from the water and mixtures of powders that when wet release CO2. Unfortunately, the CO2 released is very inconsistant.

In a calcium reactor setting, it is important to be able to adjust the amount of CO2 being released and that it remain steady. This would not be possible with the alternatives above mentioned.

[MDP]

What Agiacosa says here is of course true. The point with the Sulphur denitrators is that with an effluent ph of around 6.5, (and NO3 of 0), running the effluent back into the tank over calcium reactor media has a similar effect (in terms of dissolution of media) to a calcium reactor. IMO the whole denitrator reactor is great, however buffering will take a little more than the media can achieve. But then again I suppose it all depends on system size, stocking, water changes and a whole host of variables.

Personally speaking have been very happy with the STM supplied denitrator (and their after sales service). The kit does what it is supposed to do.

Matt

[grim]

Seltzer Reactor anyone? :)

What about using seltzer in the reactor, it could also double for an auto-topoff... Hell, get a nice sparkling mineral water and it'll work to keep the trace minerals up as well.. :)

jb

[MDP]

Sorry missed the relevance here.

Apologies if sarcasm was being eployed (being British I am naturally an expert in the lowest form of wit!!). But not really sure of your point.

SD works for me and a lot of others in the UK as a source of adding Calcium without using CO2, just because you can't readily access it and therefore possibly do not understand it, no need to knock it. If however you do have an SD and it doesn't work then please feel free to let me help you.

Matt

[Jabrams]

it costs me 13 dollars to fill my 5lb CO2 bottle, and that lasts 6 months.

at this point in the thread im a little more intereste in hooking solar panels up to my MH

cheers,Joe

[MDP]

Sorry Grim. If you were (doh!) posting ideas for CO2 production. Then i get your thinking. very funny.

Thought you were replying to my last post. (It's getting a little late here in Tokyo). Apologies if I misread you.

Matt

[MDP]

Jabrams.

I'll second that!

Having just blown the electricity in the ground floor of the house twice today (thanks to 2 MH, Coolers, fans air con) on a very hot Tokyo day, seems like not a bad idea at all.

Matt

[grim]

Originally posted by MDP
Sorry Grim. If you were (doh!) posting ideas for CO2 production. Then i get your thinking. very funny.

Thought you were replying to my last post. (It's getting a little late here in Tokyo). Apologies if I misread you.

Matt

Was just joking around, not directed at your post at all, no offense taken!

This thread has given me some great new ideas for a 'Gin and Tonic' reactor... :)

jb

[MDP]

Now there's something that no home should be without. If you come up with schematics don't forget to post in the DIY section!!!
:D :D :D

[Los]

Easy solution for CO2 ingection, DIY.

Go to a freshwater planted webgroup or visit thekrib.com for more details, but here's the basics - which I'm wondering about too for use in a calc reactor.

You take a 2 litre coke bottle. Drink it. Wash it. Fill it with 2 cups of sugar and a pinch of wine, champagne or some other alcohol tollerant yiest. Use a rubber plug with a hole drilled in it to seal the top with a piece of plastic tube in the middle. Attach airline hose to the plastic tube and inject into... (I used to use it for my planted tank). This simple setup requires changing the water and sugar one every 2-4 weeks, but it cranks out multiple bubbles of CO2 every second. The hotter it is, the faster it runs.

I, too, want to know if this could be used easily to create my own DIY reactor. For example, could I have this gas enter a mostly sealed container contaning a powerhead for movement and argonite to be dissolved and then drip it into my sump? Please respond to this specific DIY CO2 thread in the one I recently listed in the DIY section.

I hope I didn't drag this too far off on a tangent, just trying to see if my old planted tank experience could pay off here.

Thanks,

LOS

[CMSACD]

The only problem with the sugar/yeast production of CO2 is that there are a multitude of other gasses produced.

Hydrogen Sulfide being one of them. Also some fusil and ester alcohol vapors.

Not a very "clean" source of CO2 IMO.

If the startup price of a CO2 setup is the issue then check out your local breweries, soda shops, and home brew stores. For those of you with out a local place such as these sheck out some of the "restauraunt supply" joints. You can usually get killer deals on a used CO2 setup.

Expect to pay about 20 for the tank and another 30 for the regulators. Plus misc parts and connectors.

HTH

[Los]

I don't recall any hydrogen sulfide smelling stuff in my yeast CO2 systems, but I bet you are right that a small amount of alcohol does evaporate. The alcohol level never gets higher than 13 or 14% max, so there shouldn't be too much evaporation. That being said, it still may be too much for reef creatures. I just don't know and I hadn't even thought of those issues, so thank you.

LOS