VHO's or Power Compacts

[gstebler]

I am setting up a 125 reef. I am looking at either 6 foot VHO, 3 bulb retrofit, or two three foot 4 bulb power compacts. Question is which is better in the long haul. I've heard the VHO's have a 1 year life expectancy, But I also heard the power compacts' life is longer but they lose their efficiency. I posted a thread when I was beginning to look and I stated I was going to use compacts, but since then I found to many negs for both. Metal Haliades would br nice but not in the budget. Comments ARE welcome.

[asmujica]

How about T5's?

[hogpark7430]

I have a 125g with pc lights 6X96watts from:

http://www.petsupplyliquidator.com/htm/aparts_pwrcompactballast.htm#b3

[gstebler]

I don't want to sound stupid, I 'm new to SW, but what are T-5's?

[gstebler]

The problem wtih a 6 - 96W is air circulation. These lights are goin to be suspended about 4" above the tops in the canopy. With a 6 bulb system is I won't be able to feed. With a 3 bulb sys I won't have a problem. I have considered a 4 bulb sys.

[asmujica]

I'm lazy :)

T5 (http://www.s-t-m.co.uk/pages/T5.htm)

[gstebler]

T5's look interresting. I'ld like a little more info on them though. They are fairly new lights and they are priced right, but they are untested. Antone using these, input would be appreciated.

[asmujica]

There are some guys here on the board using them. I couldn't find a way to search for it though. Maybe if you start a new thread.

[lllosingit]

Just a thought, but I only spent about $400 on a 3x175w Mh system with 2x95 watt VHO 03 Actinics.
I bought the advance ballast for $25 apiece on e-bay and new 10K AB bulbs were $54 apiece, reflector/socket combo's were $29 apiece from http://www.hellolights.com/methalparref.html
I also bought the VHO ballast off e-bay for $45
and the actinic bulbs were $20 apiece from http://www.hellolights.com/36acfluorlam.html.
I spent an additional $70 for the wood to build a canaopy.
I know $500 sounds expensive compared to just VHO but when you add it all up it not going to be.

[moonpod]

Am using T5's currently--VERY impressed so far--but it's only been a few months. The litmus test really is if the bulbs last for a couple of years--granted given my previous bad experiences w/PC, if they last a year I'll be happy--I've never really had a PC bulb go more than 6-9 mos w/o color shifting or obviously markedly decreasing in brightness. The theoretical advantages of T5 is the improved light producing effeciencies from the smaller tube diameter (ala PC) and the durability benefits of linear sources (ala VHO). Also easier to reflect the light secondary to being linear--no worries about bends in the tubes eating up light produced. In Europe these tubes have been in use for about 3 years. The Germans have successfully substituted a 6x54w T5 array for a 400w HQI bulb + supplemental lighting--and in fact sometimes reported better growth instead of equivocal growth of SPS--in tanks 16 inches deep and LESS (to the sandbed). There's actually scientific data demonstrating that 5x80w gives 30-35000 lux on the whole surface at the same height as a 2x 250w MH that only gets you 35000 right under the bulbs. In Europe they use fixtures that normal drive the lights and they use individual reflectors (for each tube) shaped like an upside down "W" to maximize the light obtained from the tube. Now in THEORY a T5 normal driven tube should last like 4 years. In practice in a reef setting I doubt it, but no ones had them that long for sure. In the US, people can't believe in such low wattages giving those types of results, so most are overdriving the bulbs--pushing 85w through a 54w bulb--this will increase light production, but will decrease bulb life--Icecaps initial testing of the GE 6500k bulb indicates that it will last AT LEAST 18 mos w/o light/color degredation. Now the catch is that the color spectrums we like: actinic, blue, 11000k are only available in the US from a manufacturer called ATI (distributed by sunlight supply), and these bulbs have not been abused in the overdrive setting by IC as of yet--or rather the testing isn't finished. In Europe there are actually mulitple T5 bulb manufacturers--Osram (Sylvania), Arcadia and Deltec. Granted, the reality is that probably all of these companies are having the bulbs made in China or some other cheap labor locale and then stamping their logo on it. (Do you guys REALLY think URI makes their own bulbs in Ohio....maybe, but I doubt it....)

Now price wise--this isn't really cheap on the front end if you want to do it right--individual reflectors, waterproof endcaps add up real fast. Ballasts as well b/c the most popular and cheap workhorse per se isn't exactly the right ballast for firing up a T5--you should use a programmed rapid start (GE, phillips, Triad/universal, advance make 'em) or you might be eating into bulb life. IC's have a funny start up to that is probably ok. The workhorse absolutely will start 'em and run 'em though. It can be done on the cheap--single reflector for all of your bulbs (unknown loss of light, but it obviously occurs), dry use endcaps (user beware of splash and creep), and a workhorse ballast (affect on bulb life unknown)--retros like this would be VERY cheap. Especially if you use the GE bulbs (SUPER yellow....). On the other hand, using an appropriate ballast, waterproof endcaps, and individual reflectors AND nice color bulbs (like 11000k's and actinics) adds up FAST--BUT you have a lighting system that compares favorably to MH at shallower depths AND may last a really, really long time between bulb changes.

[ez1ez]

???T5's where can I purchase them??? I am building a canopy for a 7' 150g. I would love to make them my main lighting.

[moonpod]

The closest vendor to you in CT is ocean encounter or island aquatics--both are "etailers". Others that do a lot of T5 business are reefgeek.com (my local guy he's got EVERYTHING) and happyreefing.com (in Michigan)-one of the very first T5 vendors in the US.

[ez1ez]

Thanks.... I guess it's time to pull out the card and buy... do they have a t5 true actinic? or would I stay with my VHO's

[moonpod]

The actinic is NOT the same as an URI. It DOES make things fluoresce pretty well, but it's not the same. Somwhere between the best PC's and the URI.

[gstebler]

Moonpod, I went with the IceCap retrofit w/ 660 ballasts and URI Actinic Blue - 2 and AquaSun Daylight - 2. 110 watts each. The math works to 5.86 watts per gallon. Should be plenty for SPS corals and clams. (Maybe a little to much). I figured I could always install a lower watt bulb in one position or disconnect one bulb and still be lit well. I switched to a 75 gal tank, not enough room for bigger one at this time. I will move up to the big boys in the future. I do need to know if I'm overlit with the 5.86 watts though.

[moonpod]

good luck dude...you could get another couple bulbs in there no?

[gstebler]

I could fit 2 or 3 more lights, plan to later on. I was more concerned about burning my corals.

[moonpod]

True....

[Xmodius]

Great discussion.

I just got my 8 bulb T5 setup this week from reefgeek.com. (2 Icecap 660 ballasts, 4 actinic, 2 11k, 2 6700k 54 watt T5 bulbs from ATI, waterproof endcaps, individual reflectors....)

I'm putting this on my 120 gallon 48x24x24 inch tank which I'm just setting up from scratch now.

I'm curious to see just what I can keep successfully with this amount and quality of light.

[moonpod]

Xmodius:
Just remember it's still a fluorescent system, so don't expect to keep anything light hungry lower than 13-16 inches. If you look at the German T5 tanks, the SPS are higher up in the tank, NOT on the bottom. The bottom is reserved for stuff that'll do under lower lighting. I think your bulb combo will be nice personally. It's along the lines of what I'm gonna use to light the 180 that I'm setting up currently.

[ez1ez]

:eek2: I just ordered 2 t5 setups through my LFS. Bob the owner of Pet Paradise setup his store to sell them. they will be in next week. he has 2 on display. I placed it next to the PC and it seemed brighter. I cant wait. 8 t5's to start. 2 actinic, 2 6500k, 2 10,000k. Is that a good spectrum? or is there a better setup? when it comes to lighting I'm a novice. I just know pc and mh's work. Thanks for all you info. It really helps....Sam

[moonpod]

Originally posted by ez1ez
:eek2: I just ordered 2 t5 setups through my LFS. Bob the owner of Pet Paradise setup his store to sell them. they will be in next week. he has 2 on display. I placed it next to the PC and it seemed brighter. I cant wait. 8 t5's to start. 2 actinic, 2 6500k, 2 10,000k. Is that a good spectrum? or is there a better setup? when it comes to lighting I'm a novice. I just know pc and mh's work. Thanks for all you info. It really helps....Sam
you listed 6 bulbs, not 8....just FYI, It's sort of pricier, but try to get a "programmed start" ballast for your T5's if you're gonna normal drive--instant start ballasts according to the industrial literature are really rough on the bulbs unless you keep 'em on greater than 12 hrs a day. As for the color balance, if you use the 6 bulb combo above it'll be good. The really nice color comes from the "aquablue" or 10/11000k bulb. The 6500k's are super bright, but also SUPER YELLOW. The actinic will fluoresce things, but it's still not a URI super actinic type deal. What type of reflector are you gonna get?

[ez1ez]

Maybe I should us my VHO actinic? Sorry I will have 8 lights. 2 sets of 4. Maybe 2-20k, 2-10k,2-6500k,and 2-whatever then the VHO actinic. I will make my own reflector. I will use stainless steel. I made one for my brother and it rocked. Im debating if I should make a tall canopy or a small one since the light are cooler.

[gstebler]

I would make the canopy taller and suspend the lights. This would allow room for a fan for cooling and water evaporation, and an addition of a shelf in the future for storing you supplies (if desired do a half depth shelf) and facilitate an ease in changing bulbs. Slot or leave the top open for water evap and ease of access. A base of 32 - 36 inches high and a conopy Of 16 - 18 inches high gives an illusion of belonging. Ie. kitchen cabinets or built in cabinetry. (I used to build cabinets and furniture as a carpenter, I suppose this may make more sense if I had Pics but I don't as of yet. My base and canopy is under construction.) Take a look at your kitchen cabinets and counter space. Base cabinets are generally 32" -36" high and upper cabinets usually are 16" - 18" above the counter. Your tank will act as the space between the counter and upper cabinet. I hope this analogy helps.
Greg

[ez1ez]

It makes alot of sense because the proper placement of Furniture-tanks helps the mind accept it. (So my wife just told me) She has total authority as to where things are placed. 18" canopy with suspended lights. I will also have the front open up for access. I made one of maple but this one I might use teak, I think that's the way it's spelled. I know they use it in saunas and hi moisture areas.

[Questlove]

D**N these are expensive

would they require a cooling fan as well in an enclosed canopy?

[gstebler]

Teak is nice and offers a natural resistance to water, that is why it's used in constructing saunas, but it's also very expensive and hard to find. There are two other, more common, naturally occurring water resistant woods available. They are cedar and redwood. Redwood has better character over the two other wood species listed. No matter which wood is chosen it'll require som type of finish. (I would recommend a poly eurathane). The finish (other than paint, I hate to see good quality wood painted, if you want a painted finish then use 1/2" or 3/4" exterior grade plywood) should be applied in three to four coats with light sanding(use 000 steel wool and wipe off the "dust" in between each coat. I use an old rag with a "very little bit" varnish remover). The insides of the cabinet should also be finished in the same manner. However, here (on the inside) you could use a coat of primer and two to three coats of paint. Both should be oil based (primer and paint). I intend on painting the insides of my canopy and base white because white reflects light well, and I am going to install a refugium at a later date. Keep in mind you could use any wood of your choice if the above steps are followed. I hope this helps ou in you choice of wood. The finish procedure I included so your hard work will last a long time.

[Alberio]

IMHO the gold standard for lighting is MH supplemented with VHO super actinic.

The only real reason to get anything else is lack of space for the MH lighting.

Corals survive under VHO, MH or T5 only.

They thrive multiply and grow under MH.

I've seen T5. They are almost the same as PC's without the curved glass ends. They are way to expensive right now.

[gstebler]

I am not sure if a fan would be required. I would guess that it would be though. The fan would be used in controlling evaporation. Moonpod states the bulbs run cooler, but the heat is not only generated by the bulbs, but also by the balast. If the balast is kept cool the life of the balast and even the bulbs should be extended. I intend on using a fan in my canopy, but I will be using VHO's. I have an IceCap 660 balast. This balast is supposed to be able to run T5 lights as well. The only changes would be the end caps. This conversion will be made if the info keeps showing high pos results. Hope this helps.
Greg

[moonpod]

NO, the bulbs are hotter, BUT have a small surface area so comparatively release little heat--the operating temp for a T5 is MUCH higher than most fluorescents--also makes them more suitable for enclosed use--you don't degrade the bulb as easily since it runs at a higher temp anyway. (as temps exceed a fluorescent bulbs optimal running temp light output decreases over time...) That being said a fan is ALWAYS a good idea w/ANY lighting system

The IC 660 can pretty much run ANY fluorescent bulb, VHO, NO, T5, PC whatever. I've used mine on VHO, PC, AND T5 currently

Cost as an issue for T5 is interesting. There's actually a German site that figured out the costs for a 2x250wMH system vs their comparative T5 setup--it was MUCH cheaper over the long term and actually gets you more light (down to 13-16 inches or so) or rather the same light across the entire aquarium.

[moonpod]

Hey Alberio:
http://www.thelightedge.com/introtot5.pdf
it's food for thought. Though I certainly don't disagree that the "gold" standard for a SPS/Clam reef tank is MH w/supplemental lighting.

Pricing--well actually the pricing is all over the place cause it really depends on how you do it. If you do it the German method, individual reflectors, normal driven T5HO programmed start ballasts, startup cost difference between T5 and VHO is the difference in reflector cost (ie 1 vs 4 reflectors). Endcaps, ballasts, bulbs are comparable. Yes, I'm talking about going head to head w/a 110w VHO using a 54w T5. Whether or not it really works in practice vs theory--well, that's what we the end users will decide right? Is it more than PC, yeah, cause w/PC you can get away w/cheapy ballasts like workhorses, which WILL work w/T5, but will shorten bulb life--one of your theoretical advantages.

[gstebler]

Moonpod thanks for clearing this up. The T5 v. VHO v. compact saga continues. I have come to the conclusion lighting is a personal kinda thing, and the one thing everyone seems to agree on is, no matter what lights you choose they are all expensive, but very necessary for your tank. I'll look intothe T5's for future use but the VHO's are in the pipe. The IceCap retrofits should do the job for me. 1 question though. I was told the VHO's will not require a reflector because light loss will be minimal in a canopy. I find this hard to believe. I intend on using a reflector in conjunction with my lighting. Do you have any suggestions where to find a good reflector?

[moonpod]

URI bulbs have internal reflectors. There IS a benefit of having a reflector, but it's like a 10-20%, unlike the T5 where you like triple your light with the right reflector. Check out the CSL parabolic PC reflectors, will work fine for this purpose.

[gstebler]

The bulbs that are in my retrofit kit are URI, but I'll use a reflector just the same for future upgrades and bulb replacement issues.

[moonpod]

Originally posted by ez1ez
Maybe I should us my VHO actinic? Sorry I will have 8 lights. 2 sets of 4. Maybe 2-20k, 2-10k,2-6500k,and 2-whatever then the VHO actinic. I will make my own reflector. I will use stainless steel. I made one for my brother and it rocked. Im debating if I should make a tall canopy or a small one since the light are cooler.
You might be happier, w/VHO super actinic, but realistically, it's aesthetics and the T5 should be more effecient. Check out sunlight supplies forum for ideas on bending that reflector. Think "W"

[ez1ez]

Thank you again, the info really helps....I sure beats trial and error. My reflector will be thin mirror like stainless steel. I will bend it to reflect the light straight down. like a mag light. thats why will be using many lights. It also will break down easily for cleaning. I've been reading about ballasts, once I get that down then I will probably buy a few ballasts and start making my own Frankenstien system. My end result will be growing a beautiful purple or grean tip acro. that I can actually see the colors. Thanks again.

[moonpod]

One note on ballasts--according to the industrial lighting guys who are using T5 to replace MH in Hibays, you really benefit from the "programmed start" ballasts--instant starts really cut into bulb life unless your burn cycles are greater than 12 hrs--personally I don't light my tanks more than 12 hrs, but maybe some guys do.....There are a multitude of dedicated T5HO ballasts on the market now, though they all look supiciously the same w/different companies names on 'em.....

[Xmodius]

Just for what it's worth...

The complete 8 bulb T5 setup I just received was just a bit over $800 I believe.

That's 2 Icecap 660 ballasts, 8 bulbs (4-actinic, 2-11k, 2-6500k), 16 water resistant endcaps/standoffs, 8 individual 'w' reflectors .

I don't know how cost compares to MH. I didn't even consider MH. I chose T5 to get the most light into my aquarium while accepting the space constraints of my existing canopy. The 8 bubs fit perfectly into the canopy and will sit a couple inches above the water. Tank is 48"x24"x24".

Man it sure is 'fun' drilling all those holes, routing all those wires and trying to make everything look neat.

TIP: 'Split Flex Tubing' will go over all the wires and make it look much neater. If you're not familiar with it look under the hood of a car at the wire bundles bound in the black corrugated plastic tubing. I found the split flex tubing near all the other electrical supplies at Lowe's.:bum:

[moonpod]

Holy $#!@ you put 8 bulbs over a 120! That's a serious amount of light.....cost wise, that's about what I figure I'll spend to light my 180--I'm going w/Sunlight Supplies T5 hood, and then I already have a couple IC 660's, but add in that cost and the bulbs and it'll run about that.....

But seriously, if you wired for say VHO instead, the only cost differential is the reflectors--yes that's 160-180 bucks, but in the total scheme of a well designed 120....not that much.

MH wouldn't be that cheap either for a top of the line electronic ballast setup.