T5 or VHO???

[vegeta]

I was wondering if you were buying new lighting which one would you go with?

[mathman]

I am no expert, but I still like VHO. A LFS was geeked to show me his new T5 setup so he plugged them in for me and they were bright but not like VHO. I am not sure about the possible electrical savings though. Just my opinion.

[Aquatect76]

Electronic VHO is the WAY TO GO!

[moonpod]

I'm on the T5 bandwagon personally, as I believe that it will supplant VHO and PC in the near term, BUT it is certainly not a proven light system in the US. It is the fluorescent system of choice in Europe, BUT you gotta remember they never got VHO or PC there.

[vegeta]

what are the differences between the two, any advantages in the T5s?

[Mako]

as I believe that it will supplant VHO and PC in the near term That's what they said when PC's came to the market years back. :D

I still like VHO and unless they can bring the cost down a couple of notches that's where I will stay. Just can't beat an Icecap URI combo.

fwiw

[vegeta]

which one is cheaper?

which one is better for growing corals?

how many bulbs of each, would i need to grow SPS under a 55 gallon, 12-13 inches deep after the DSB?

[vegeta]

also how long does each last?

[moonpod]

Here's where the "theory" of T5 vs the unknown reality comes in. T5 is essentially a thinner fluorescent tube--the designation just describes the diameter 5/8's of an inch vs T12 (standard VHO)which is 12/8's or 1.5 inches. Because of the thinner diameter, there are theoretical improvements in effeciency, light production and they are easier to cool (fluorescents like to be cool--as they heat up/get too hot light production falls off. There are reports of people switching from HQI MH bulbs in Europe to T5 systems w/good results. One hobbyist, Doug Chambers has switched from VHO to T5 here in the states that I know of. He's had early mixed results--some of his inverts are loving it, some aren't. Also he's had trouble getting the color mix to his taste. THEORETICALLY you will get 2 yrs life before T5 bulbs will color shift if overdriven (using icecap ballasts for example). If normal driven they should last more like 4 years. Taking the VHO example vegeta, and a 55 gallon tank, it'll be tight, but you'll get 4 bulbs under the canopy (accounting for hinges and what not so that you can actually open the thing). That's 440w of light give or take (they hardly ever really run at the max rating). Normal driven, 46.5" T5 bulbs are rated at 54w. You can hang 8-10 of 'em under your canopy IF you use the dryuse endcaps and a parabolic reflector. That's comparable wattage. If you overdrive the bulbs, you'll get about 80-85 watts through each tube--that's some serious light. What I was hanging over my tank (60 gallon--same thing as a 55 really), was a parabolic reflector, and 6 T5's, overdriven. It was REALLY, REALLY bright. I changed to the individual reflectors (ie one for each tube) to optimize the output from each bulb, and cut back to 4 tubes overdriven. Still, VERY bright, but now my wattage is like 320-340 instead of like 500. We'll see how my critters react to the change. Price wise, the bulbs are comparable, BUT the initial setup for a T5 system can be quite a bit more, ESPECIALLY if you go the individual reflector and waterproof endcaps route.

[chem-e]

Since the wattage isn't comparable, how about the lumens that the T5s put out? Watts is just a unit of power, but lumens is a unit of light given out, so wouldn't lumens be more important for our tanks?

[moonpod]

Well, really lumens and watts don't matter, PAR is more important. I haven't seen good numbers for these things honestly. What I'm going by is the good results reported and demonstrated by German reefers who have been using T5 for >2yrs. go to:

http://www.korallenriff.de/enter.html

Then click on the aqua-bilderbook button

MANY of the tanks linked to this site are T5 driven.

[Aquatect76]

http://www.icecapinc.com/famaarticle.htm[/URL]
http://www.icecapinc.com/famaarticle2.htm [URL]

Ok, here you go! Cheap bulbs can be overdriven as well!(Just read the first article). You can use $6 bulbs from Lowe's and they are called Daylight Ultras. They are 6500k, like 84 CRI, and put out around 3000 lumens each. For actinic you can use Phillips actinics. This is even cheaper than T5's because these T12's last for years as well, although I replace mine once a year, and I growout SPS, LPS, and softies under them with no problems. If you wanted to get the Daylight Ultras for even cheaper you could search the Internet, as I did, and find them for $2.60 a piece. However, to get this price I had to order a case of 15 (total cost w/shipping~$60). Now, isn't that about what you would pay, or more, for just 4 T5's?

[vegeta]

which one will allow me to grow SPS coral?

which one should i get?

is it true i can use the $6 t5 bulbs?

[moonpod]

those $6 are normal output T12 bulbs that are being overdriven. You will not get the same results as w/true VHO or T5 or at least that's what most will say. Certainly you CAN overdrive 'em, just be careful to watch for color shifts as the bulbs are NOT designed for the higher wattages. $6T5 bulbs are around, if not even cheaper, but they are the wrong color temp. They are for regular lighting purposes ie they will be like 3000 or 4500k bulbs. Again, what do you want to keep vegeta? You gotta make that decision first. Then you gotta decide how much of a DIY'er are you and whether or not you can cope w/the potential pitfalls of DIYing--yes you can save money, but it can also be a total pain....

[vegeta]

well i mean whats the difference in the brightness between the 2 bulbs?

i want to be able to keep pretty much anything i want, without loosing color in the corals.

what if i dont overdrive T5s?
what if i normal drive, them?
do they have to have an individual reflector?

[vegeta]

BTW im a total DIYer!!

i love building things!!

[moonpod]

Look if you want flexibility for ALL organisms and all tank situations, then you wanna go MH. Then if for some reason you want a deep, tall tank, you'll still be ok.

In a shallow tank I think that T5 has the following advantages: more effecient light production and reflectivity than T12 bulbs inherent to thinner bulb design; easier to cool than T12 due to smaller design; you can place more under your hood; they may last longer.

Downside--in the US no one has yet reported duplicating those German tanks--I'm not saying they won't, it just hasn't happened yet. Another downside, the equipment is a little pricier than VHO stuff currently. Most of that cost difference is IF you go w/the individual reflectors and of course if you go w/more bulbs you will need more ballasts, tubes and endcaps. I'm happy so far, w/my T5 setup, but that's not to say I know for sure it's better than VHO. I do know it kicks buttock on my previous PC setup.

[Aquatect76]

I guess the saying "You can lead a horse to water..." applies here. Um... Yes you can use T5's, yes you CAN use regular T12's, T5's and T8's with an electronic VHO ballast, yes you can use compacts, and yes you can use metal halides. If you're really sweat'n this, then go with the tried and true method that experts have been using for decades, metal halide w/actinics. Good luck...

[vegeta]

does a 54w T5 put out more light than a 110w VHO?

[Aquatect76]

I seriously doubt it, but to know for sure you would need a Lux meter to measure the amount of lumens each puts out. Or, better yet, a PAR meter to measure the Photosynthetic Active Radiation which appears to be a more accurate measurement of a bulbs output. You can get Lux meters that measure up to 100,000 lumens, most only measure to 50,000, from Aquatic Ecosystem. They actually sell both the 50,000 and the 100,000 models. Or Apogee makes a relatively inexpensive PAR meter (around $200). This is the only TRUE way of knowing how much light is being put out by a bulb. You simply cannot look at it to tell. Unless you have one of this meters wired to your Optic nerve! Ha Ha

[vegeta]

aquatect do you use VHOs??

what size is your tank, and what do you grow in it?

[XxAngelzDustxX]

vegeta, I just started this thread and I listed the costs of my T-5 set up, you might want to check it out :)

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174066

[vegeta]

has anyone compared the PAR, PUR, PPFD of T5s and VHOs?

[moonpod]

vegeta, not to my knowledge. Most of the T5 experience in the US is in it's infancy. I'm certainly not gonna get both setups and a par meter and measure the stuff. Ask icecap if they'll do it. Or sunlight supply. A 54w T5 overdriven gives you 80-85w. That's PROBABLY (no promises) in the ballpark as a single 110w VHO.

[moonpod]

vegeta, aquatects point previously is that everything can work, it's just that everything has it's plusses and minuses. Tried and true, no doubt, is MH w/actinic supplementation. Downside is heat production. VHO works, the Germans have demonstrated that T5 works. VHO is also a tried and true in the US, but there are tank depth limitations. T5 downside is that the equipment is a bit pricey currently. PC downside is that the bulbs are fragile, wear out quickly and are ineffecient, BUT there are people out there using them successfully.

Inexpensive T5 setup for a 75 gallon tank:
4 WH7 ballasts ~$35/piece
8 pairs dry use endcaps--$16
Parabolic reflector--~$30
8 bulbs--~$30 each

This will provide A LOT of light--but you won't have the individual reflectors to maximize the light AND you've got dry use endcaps that you'll have to protect somehow from salt spray and creep.

[traip93]

i've been reading a ton of stuff on the T5s too. I was going to go with VHOs, but when I was ready to order my lights, I found out that happyreefing no longer carries VHOs and they carry T5s now. THis is when I began my research. There are a ton of great threads in this forum and happyreefing has been a great resource too. In the end I'm going to give the T5s a shot, i'll let peeps knwo how they work out.....There is no right or wrong way, my method is take a look at tanks similar to mine and copy their set-ups. Like stated above, in europe many reefers have had success with T5s..............

[vegeta]

i talked with the guy at reefgeek and he said i could go with 4 normal driven T5s and be able to grow almost anything, is this true?

[vegeta]

also can i make my own individual reflectors?

[dante71985]

yes i too would also like to know some answers to these wuestions.

[moonpod]

Originally posted by vegeta
i talked with the guy at reefgeek and he said i could go with 4 normal driven T5s and be able to grow almost anything, is this true?
Well if you're German it apparently is true. If you're american who knows. I don't mean to be a smart ***, but as I stated previously the American T5 experience is in it's infancy. YES, the Germans have had a very good experience with T5 for the past few years, BUT they never got VHO over there. Maybe they would have gotten even better results w/VHO, maybe not, we'll never know b/c at the bare minimum bulb life is much better w/T5 so it's unlikely German companies will bother trying to bring in VHO. Now being a skeptic, I overdrive the bulbs and accept that bulb life will decrease from 3-4 years to 1.5-2 yrs.

Individual reflectors maximize the amount of light you get from each bulb, BUT they are 2 inches wide, so the number of bulbs you can hang decrease. I would wonder if you could use a simple parabolic reflector, and maybe coat the canopy w/mylar as well and get close to the same results AND increase the number of bulbs you can use. Who knows.

None of this is what's right and what's wrong. Skepticism is healthy. But noone will know until people try. Certainly there is support for all forms of fluorescent lighting, but obviously none of it is perfect b/c well...noone can place the sun under their canopy.

[vegeta]

well do the GERMANS use different bulbs than ATI??
are ATI bulbs made for aquariums?

[vegeta]

anyone?

[moonpod]

The germans also have appropriate spectrum osram bulbs (sylvania in the US I think) and arcadia bulbs (made in the UK). It doesn't matter who the company is, it matters what the spectrum of the bulbs are.

[vegeta]

the bulns that are out now arent the correct spectrum

BTW....i really appericate all your help.

[moonpod]

What's not correct about actinics, 6500k, 11000k and "blue" bulbs? What else is there? Or rather what else would you need?

[vegeta]

so what would you do if you were me?
can i not overdrive them? and still be able to grow SPS?

if so how many would i need, GREG at reefgeek told me 4 would be enough.

[moonpod]

what do you want to keep, how big is your tank, do you already have a canopy?

[vegeta]

my tank is either 50-55 gallon, yes i built a canopy.

i would like to keep anything i wanted except clams.
i wont guarentee i will want the most light demanding corals, i would like and acropora or 2.

[vegeta]

you there??

[moonpod]

Originally posted by vegeta
you there??

I wasn't, but I am now:D

Anyway, if you've already built a canopy how tall is it? If it isn't like at least a foot tall, I wouldn't go w/MH, you'll have horrible heat problems unless you put tons of fans in the canopy--and then you'll have color shift problems cause MH bulbs need to be hot to run at the right temp.

The tried and true solution is 4x110w VHO. An alternative is a T5 setup--you can go w/4 bulbs, but I'd definitely use the individual reflectors ($20/apiece--like I said it gets $$$ quick), and I'd overdrive personally, though granted, the Germans don't and it seems to work fine. My personal experience is that I've been using T5 for a few months now. I started w/a single parabolic reflector (nothing fancy) and 6 overdriven tubes. LOTS of light, I'm keeping an alveopora, a monti frag, a BTA and an assortment of shrooms, xenia and leathers that all seem reasonably happy. The alveopora is growing for sure as are the leathers. The montipora frag keeps getting moved around etc...but it seems to be growing a bit--calcium is probably a problem in my system for it as my kalk dosing thing has been offline for awhile now and I'm still waiting for my nilsen reactor. The BTA was my benchmark for how much better T5 was than PC. With my previous PC lighting, the BTA literally hung out at the top of the tank. Now w/the switch to T5 it is partially shaded in the bottom. This occured as I was gradually switching to the T5 system--ie before I had all 6 bulbs up and running. The sunlight supply individual tube reflectors are now available, so I switched down to 4 tubes (size constraint w/these reflectors), and subjectively the amount of light is the same. My inverts aren't acting like anything changed. But it's only be a few days since I changed the setup.

[fahz]

Moonpod:

Do you have any pictures of your setup and your canopy lighting. I'm in the process of seting up a 58 Oceanic RR and you have my interest on T5's. I was going to go with 4x96 pc but I might give T5's a shot.

Fahz

[XxAngelzDustxX]

Sorry if this is stupid but is 11K = 60/40 bulb?

[moonpod]

Originally posted by fahz
Moonpod:

Do you have any pictures of your setup and your canopy lighting. I'm in the process of seting up a 58 Oceanic RR and you have my interest on T5's. I was going to go with 4x96 pc but I might give T5's a shot.

Fahz
The PC is the one lighting solution I wouldn't use. You'll regret it if you want to keep any inverts. If you're just gonna keep fish, then it's fine.

As for pix of my tank, well, it's really a FOWLR....I've got a trigger in it so you can imagine what my inverts look like....a better tank to look at is Doug Chambers tank. Search for him and link up to that. Also the German tanks that I posted about previously.

Here's a pix of the lid of the canopy

[moonpod]

Originally posted by XxAngelzDustxX
Sorry if this is stupid but is 11K = 60/40 bulb?

Yes also known as the aquablue

This is a close up of the 2 piece endcaps and individual reflectors

[moonpod]

Here's the 4th light that you can't really see. Before, w/the dryuse endcaps, 6 bulbs and a parabolic reflector were on the lid w/room to spare.

[fahz]

Moonpod:

What is the overall length of the 36" bulbs with endcaps.

Fahz

[moonpod]

It's a guess, but probably like 36". the "3 foot" bulb is more like 35.5". the endcaps only stick like a 1/4" past the end of the bulb. Maybe 36.5" max I'd guess. The lengths are funny cause it's metric. The bulb is actually like 90cm which is less than 36", though not by much (35.5"). The "4 foot" bulb I know is 46.5" long.

My major grip about the setup is that the endcaps are essentially modified T12 endcaps. Really, it probably wouldn't have been too hard to make one that was much smaller, more commensurate to the size of the bulbs, BUT this route was the cheaper one so....guess which way the companies went. The downside of these caps is that really you can't place any more bulbs than w/a standard VHO setup. with dry use endcaps though.....

[rhiggsbear]

My major grip about the setup is that the endcaps are essentially modified T12 endcaps.

I thought they looked like they were the same size as T12 endcaps.

So, the question I have is how can you claim you can fit more T5 bulbs in a given space if the endcaps are the same size? The endcaps have a larger diameter than the bulbs and if they are the same size, you will be limited to the same number of bulbs, T5 or T12.:confused:

[moonpod]

The dryuse endcaps are sized to the bulb. I was using those originally--Didn't have a problem, they just make me nervous. As I stated previously, w/the dryuse endcaps I had 6 bulbs on just the opening lid part of my canopy w/room to spare. I could place three where I've got only one on the part of the canopy that doesn't open. I just switched to the two piece endcaps and "special" reflectors cause this T5 stuff is really in it's experimental phase here in the US. For the 180 gall that I'm setting up, I'm gonna get a formal hood from sunlight supply that holds 8 tubes and is only 18inches deep.

[rhiggsbear]

So, there will be a glass or Plexiglas shield between the water and the bulbs or is the end caps moisture proof in this "formal hood from sunlight supply"?

It seems at this point in time, it would be better for DIY canopy builders to stay with VHO if you do not want glass or Plexiglas between the bulbs and the water because you will get the same amount of bulbs either way. Considering the environment these lights will be used in, I would think you would want moister-proof end caps.

[grafxguy]

moonpod, I am in the process of building a canopy for my T5 system. What I want to know is did you fasten the reflectors to the canopy or did you just clip them to the bulbs? If you have other pics of your canopy could you email then to me? Thanks. eric

liebe@greysun.com

[moonpod]

Originally posted by grafxguy
moonpod, I am in the process of building a canopy for my T5 system. What I want to know is did you fasten the reflectors to the canopy or did you just clip them to the bulbs? If you have other pics of your canopy could you email then to me? Thanks. eric

liebe@greysun.com
The particular reflectors that are in those pictures clip onto the bulbs. What you could do is mount the reflector to the hood, and independently mount the bulbs, but those particular reflectors just clip onto the bulbs. Those are the sunlight supply suntek reflectors (or something like that0

[moonpod]

Originally posted by rhiggsbear
So, there will be a glass or Plexiglas shield between the water and the bulbs or is the end caps moisture proof in this "formal hood from sunlight supply"?

Some sort of shield

It seems at this point in time, it would be better for DIY canopy builders to stay with VHO if you do not want glass or Plexiglas between the bulbs and the water because you will get the same amount of bulbs either way. Considering the environment these lights will be used in, I would think you would want moister-proof end caps.

There are some push-on endcaps in the UK...which of course are smaller. Really, the dry use endcaps could probably be sealed off w/tape or silicone or encased w/a protective shield fairly easily. I switched to one have waterproof endcaps, but two to also try out these fancy dancy reflectors.

[grafxguy]

Cool, those are the ones I am getting. Looking at Perry's photos in his thread it looks like there are screws to actually fasten the reflectors to the canopy. Am I correct on this? eric

[moonpod]

yes

[rhiggsbear]

There are some push-on end caps in the UK...which of course are smaller.

Similar to the rubber push-on end caps for NO T-12 bulbs (not rated for overdriving or VHO bulbs)?



Some sort of shield

I was my understanding it is not best to have a shield between your lights and the water. Color shift, salt creep/spray, etc.

Sorry to be a stick in the mud but I have read a lot of inconsistencies in these posts about T-5 being better than VHO. All of a sudden, VHO don't last as long as they did last year (debate between VHO and PC's), more bulbs but it is disclosed the end caps moisture resistant and you need a shield, etc. It kind of makes you wonder. :rolleyes:

[moonpod]

T5 is a technology in evolution n the us. What I will say is this. The germans do not overdrive the bulbs, typically use enclosed hoods, and report good results. In the US, since we can't believe that they are getting these results w/such low wattages, we can't resist the urge to overdrive, which necessitates changes in the equipment--the German stuff, which you can order and ship over if you want--looks very nice, but isn't really very high in the wattage department. Granted those tanks look really nice, and hey if it works for them.....
Salt spray is an issue for your lights whether or not you shield them. You either gotta wipe down the shield or the bulbs. Your choice.
Dunno about the "ratings" on the pushon endcaps. Probably not for overdriving, as like I stated previously, they don't overdrive in Europe.

[moonpod]

Originally posted by rhiggsbear


Sorry to be a stick in the mud but I have read a lot of inconsistencies in these posts about T-5 being better than VHO. All of a sudden, VHO don't last as long as they did last year (debate between VHO and PC's), more bulbs but it is disclosed the end caps moisture resistant and you need a shield, etc. It kind of makes you wonder. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't call yourself a stick in the mud at all. Skepticism is healthy. The thing what's really intriguing, and hardest of all to believe are the reefers in europe using these things sucessfully w/comparatively very low wattage. they DON'T overdrive the bulbs in europe, and they use the individual reflectors generally, so they aren't "cramming" a ton of bulbs in the canopies. You can do a search and see the retrofit and ready made hoods. These are normal driven units w/the bulbs individually reflected.