The gift that keeps on giving

[theearthling]

Randy -

Guess what - I have a Ca/Alk problem! To give you a little background, I've discussed the issue with you before, read dozens of posts about it on RC, and read your Advanced Aquarist and Reefkeeping articles about it. I must be missing something, because the rules of chemistry don't seem to apply in my tank.

In your article titled "Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems" there is a graph with different zones showing the relationship between Ca and Alk. I used to be in zone 3, and was able to move into zone 2 with ease. However, I can't seem to get out of zone 2 at all no matter how much I dose.

Right now, I am dosing Kalk in my topoff water and 40 mL of each component of B Ionic per day (sometimes more when I'm frustrated). I have a 90 gallon tank and a 17 gallon sump with 100 lbs of live rock. I want to give you my params over a time range in case you'll see something important that I have been missing.

My Ca and Alk don't seem to go up no matter how much I dose, and I have a very light coral population since I just upgraded my lighting a couple of weeks ago. Sometimes I'm tempted to dump the entire 2 gallons of B Ionic into the sump just to see if something will happen. There was a brief time in Februrary when my params were nearly normal (when I first started dosing with B Ionic in addition to Kalk), but it quickly went away. I'll start with those dates below. I thought fixing this problem would be easy. :(

theearthling's data (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html)

In case you're wondering - I have used three different Ca test kits, purchased from 3 different vendors.

Thanks so much for looking at this.:)

Simon

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you arer in zone 2 (low calcium and low alalinity) and truly cannot raise the values with adequate calcium and alkalinity (taking intoa ccount what organsims might consume too) then the following are possibilities:

1. The rise of calcium and alkalinity is limited by low magnesium, permitting abiotic precipitation of CaCO3 to kick in at lower total combined calcium and alkalinity.

2. The rise of calcium and alkalinity is limited by high pH, permitting abiotic precipitation of CaCO3 to kick in at lower total combined calcium and alkalinity.

If you pH measurement is correct, the high pH is obviously not the issue. Is that a morning low or an afternoon high, or something in between?

You're obviously also on the magnesium track given those additions. Do you have a value for it now?

[theearthling]

The pH measurements are definitely an afternoon high (makes me worried about what it is at night).

Last Thursday (the 27th), my Mg was at 1110. I guess that's a little low, but is it low enough to cause problems? It was up to 1200 yesterday, and my Ca/Alk were 320/2.29.

Maybe I have a giant invisible coral in my tank.:rolleyes:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure exactly where magnesium becomes a problem, but I wouldn't have guessed that 1100 ppm would be a big problem. Still, let's see as the magnesium gets closer to 1300 ppm (especially since I don't have any other good ideas:D ).

[theearthling]

Well, I've updated the link above with the latest data. My magnesium is has been just shy of 1300 (1290) for the past couple of days. I ran out of additive. I'm wondering if I can add more B Ionic each day, or if it would be pointless (or dangerous). Should I expect my Ca and Alk levels to slowly creep up, or should they rise more rapidly? Do you have any other ideas since your last post?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, given the current values, a little more B-ionic daily would be good, and you need to raise the calcium with a calcium only supplement, like Kent's turbo calcium (calcium chloride) or just the calcium part of the B-ionic. This raising will take a lot of material.

This article descirbes what to do:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

[theearthling]

Yes, I have dosed large amounts of Turbo Ca before, and I've read that article a couple of times. I will do what you suggest, but I'm a little worried about a couple of things.

1. At one point in the past I think I did have some Ca precipitate out. It wasn't soon after I dosed, I just noticed a few weeks later that my heater and inside of my (hot titanium) return pump were coated with Ca (the pump's thermal protection actually kicked in).

2. What's going to happen to my Alk when I dump all that Ca in? Will I risk killing something since it's already so low?

[theearthling]

Well, I added about 100g anhydrous CaCl to my tank. I overshot it a little, landing my Ca at 485. I think that's the highest it's ever been. I got some more magnesium additive, and overshot that one, too.:rolleyes: Maybe that has something to do with the higher-than-expected calcium results. Either that or I overestimated my water volume (I don't think I had the DSB last time I calculated it). But I digress.

The alk looks okay right now, but I dosed a little of the B Ionic alk component in anticipation of the drop over the next 24 hours. Well, I hope my levels hold this time. I'll continue to update my graph in the post above...

Simon

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

485 ppm calcium isn't really a problem. So don't overcorrect in the other direction!

[theearthling]

My alk is down to 2.06 today. Should I just leave it alone?

Also, my Mg is at 1440, up from 1395 last night without adding anything to the tank. I didn't believe it, so I tested it twice with the same result. Why did it rise overnight? Does it take time for the magnesium additive to dissolve?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd boost the alkalinity and then get onto a balanced additive. Don't worry about the magneisum.

[theearthling]

Well, I've tried boosting the alk by dosing more of the alk component of B-Ionic than of the Ca component, and now I'm dosing in equal proportions. My Ca is slipping, and my alk isn't going up. I'm also dosing Kalk at the same time. It just doesn't make sense to me to have to do this much dosing. The Ca demand of my tank is really low. I don't see any precipitation. My Mg is fine, where is it all going? I'm dosing 40 mL per day of each B-Ionic component and dosing Kalk at the same time. The amount I'm dosing seems appropriate for a fully stocked tank, but not for mine which only has a few corals so far.

my data (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html)

:confused:

[Habib]

IMO there is no need to measure calcium on a daily basis. I would only measure it once a week unless you add that much buffer which could decrease the calcium far below what is required to be.


I would allow to let your system come to rest and not worry about calcium, pH and magnesium.
The only thing I would worry about and measure daily for the time being is alkalinity.

I would add for the 90 gallons about 6 or 7 teaspoons of washing soda (bicarbonate) to increase the alkalinity.

I also would stop adding any thing else, including B-Ionic and kalkwasser, for the coming week.


If the alk gets below 8 dKH or 2.8 meq/L then I would add some more bicarbonate to raise it just to 8.

One teaspoon washing soda will raise the alk in your system by approx. 0.2 meq/L or 0.6 dKH.

HTH

[theearthling]

IMO there is no need to measure calcium on a daily basis. But isn't that good for business? (Is Salifert publicly traded? I think I should buy stock at this point.) :p

But seriously, Habib, thank you, and now I'm really confused. There's nothing like a little conflicting advice to send one on a chemical roller coaster. :D I've been struggling with low Ca values values for months. Now that I've brought it up I'm hesitant to go the other way. (Isn't that what will happen if I dump a bunch of washing soda in the tank?) Do you really think my Ca will level out at an acceptable value if I focus on the alk? If you guys agree, I'll do what you say. Otherwise, I'll let the debate ensue.

(By the way, isn't "bicarbonate" baking soda and not washing soda?)

One thing I like (and want to believe) is that you suggest my system will come to rest if I sort of leave it alone.

I still wonder where all the dosing is all going...

thank you both again.:)

[Habib]

(By the way, isn't "bicarbonate" baking soda and not washing soda)

Yes, bicarbonate is baking soda. My mistake.

I had a much longer post but lost it when the Forum was doing backup while posting it. :(

The above was in a bit of hurry. Sorry for the mistake.

Will get back to your post a little later. :)

[Habib]

There's nothing like a little conflicting advice

I have not followed the thread and am basing on the last data set of yours.

What will fluctuate more (procentually) is the alkalinity.

A change in alkalinity by using a properly balanced additive or by calcifiaction will result in a change of 40 ppm calcium for every 5.6 dKH or 2 meq/L.
Since alk is low right now I would focus on this and it is also very easy to measure and has also less measurement noise.


Changes in calcium by say 15 ppm could be a measurement noise.
Changes in magnesium by say 30 ppm could also be a measurement noise.

So no reason to measure Ca and Mg daily.


If you let it rest for a week besides the alkalinty then all the calcium carbonate seeds will probably no longer be "active" and you might get a good impression of what the equilibrium values are. This in particular because you don't have much calcium consuming organisms.

IMO it would be a waste of money adding and testing much more than what would be required.


But isn't that good for business?

Business is IMO not only making of money unless printing money is your job. :D

[theearthling]

I think I'm ready to do this, unless I hear a protest from Randy (he warned me not to overcorrect my alk a couple of posts ago).

I really like to know how things work, so I have a few questions for you:

"A change in alkalinity by using a properly balanced additive or by calcifiaction will result in a change of 40 ppm calcium for every 5.6 dKH or 2 meq/L."Ok, so this means if I raise my Alk from 2 meq/L to 3 meq/L my Ca will only drop by 20ppm? But using Sodium Bicarbonate is not balanced, so does that mean my Ca will drop more? I don't understand your use of the word calcification here. I thought calcification only referred to organisms/tissue pulling the Ca out of the water by absorbing it.

But here is the key:
"...all the calcium carbonate seeds will probably no longer be "active" and you might get a good impression of what the equilibrium values are. "
I think there is something here that is the Holy Grail to my understanding of this: I suspected there was some kind of "equilibrium value," but wasn't sure (maybe that was obvious, but I'm still a newbie). That must be the point I want to raise.

So how come I can't raise that point just by using a balanced additive?

Also, what do you mean by "seeds?" Is that a figure of speech, or a technical term?


"Business is IMO not only making of money unless printing money is your job. :D" I know. That's why it's a pleasure doing business with you.;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, so this means if I raise my Alk from 2 meq/L to 3 meq/L my Ca will only drop by 20ppm?

Drop how? It may not drop at all, until something uses both. Those values are not so high as to ensure significant abiotic precipitation.

[Jimbo327]

Dude, just do a large water change, and let all the components balance out first. Why waste so much money on dosing when all you need is salt mix and water. Then just add equal parts B-Ionic to keep up with the demand.

Jim

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Drop how? It may not drop at all, until something uses both. Those values are not so high as to ensure significant abiotic precipitation.

I don't know! That's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. Habib says:
A change in alkalinity by using a properly balanced additive or by calcifiaction will result in a change of 40 ppm calcium for every 5.6 dKH or 2 meq/L.Plus, from experience I notice that increasing alk lowers my Ca.

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Jimbo327
Dude, just do a large water change, and let all the components balance out first. Why waste so much money on dosing when all you need is salt mix and water. Then just add equal parts B-Ionic to keep up with the demand.

Jim

If you look at my data, you can see the dates and quantities of my water changes. They only seem to make a slight difference.

[Habib]

"A change in alkalinity by using a properly balanced additive or by calcifiaction will result in a change of 40 ppm calcium for every 5.6 dKH or 2 meq/L."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so this means if I raise my Alk from 2 meq/L to 3 meq/L my Ca will only drop by 20ppm? But using Sodium Bicarbonate is not balanced, so does that mean my Ca will drop more? I don't understand your use of the word calcification here. I thought calcification only referred to organisms/tissue pulling the Ca out of the water by absorbing it.



It can drop by 20 ppm but does not mean that it will.

It was mostly intended to show to you that you really don't need to measure calcium daily.


Calcification is consumption in a balanced way : 20 ppm Ca and 1 meq/L alk.

Kalkwasser an B-Ionic are additions in a balanced way.


Bicarbonate is only an alkalinity increasing agent.


NO matter what you do a 20 ppm drop in calcium means an approx. drop in alk by 1 meq/L.



I think there is something here that is the Holy Grail to my understanding of this: I suspected there was some kind of "equilibrium value," but wasn't sure (maybe that was obvious, but I'm still a newbie). That must be the point I want to raise.



The equilibrium value would be a value remaining as such for a few days without any additions and without any ca and alk consuming organisms.

If you want to change in a direction which the sytem will resist then you can do what you want but it will return back.

Sure it can be manipulated somewhat by salinity, magnesium and some other parameters.

When the sytem starts to resist changes, calcium carbonate seeds (no precipitate yet) will form, they can seed precipitation and make the values lower again.


In a week you will therefore learn to know the equilibrium values at an alk of approx. 8 and the current salinity and magnesium values. You dont have corals , some LR so it should IMO be possible.

IMO the additions what you have been doing are far too much if my view of your system is correct.

Leaving your aquarium at rest (except alk) might also give you some rest :)


HTH

[theearthling]

I guess I could do a larger water change, but even if I change 50% of the water, it would only get me halfway there.

[theearthling]

OK. I'm going to dose some bicarbonate tonight, do a 25% water change this weekend, and WAIT, testing only alk for a week.

Originally posted by Habib
IMO the additions what you have been doing are far too much if my view of your system is correct.That's what I thought!


Leaving your aquarium at rest (except alk) might also give you some rest :)
Yes. And maybe my fiance will stop taking pictures of me and my chemistry set!:D

Thank you Randy, Habib, and Jim for your help. :beer:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It can drop by 20 ppm but does not mean that it will.

It was mostly intended to show to you that you really don't need to measure calcium daily.

I agree.:)

[theearthling]

http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/image%20047.jpg

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sure that is a sight that warms Habib's heart (and wallet).:D

[Habib]

:D


BTW Earthling, are you never worried that you would interchange syringes and such? :)

[theearthling]

I never interchange syringes or tips. The blue one goes to my Alk kit, the black one with the smooth tip goes to my Ca kit, and the black one with the ribbed tip goes to the Mg kit. If I get more, I guess I'll have to label them. :D

My main concern is that sometimes I grab the pH test vial instead of my beer!

[theearthling]

Well, I'm still trying to reach that elusive point of equilibrium. Nearly every day I add sodium bicarbonate, and every day my alk has dropped down again. I guess I'll stick with this routine until it stabilizes.:( Honestly, I'm about to do a 100% water change. This is getting frustrating. My tank is a friggin' yo-yo.:mad2:

oh yeah, give me the data (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html)

[Habib]

As a rough double check on your measurements:

1 x 7 + 3 x 5 teaspoons of sodium bicarbonate added.

22 x approx 5 g = 110 g = 110/84 eq = 1.3 eq

Tank is 90 gallons assume 90% is water: 342 L x 0.9 = 310 L

alk increase 1.3 eq *1000 / 310 = 4.2 meq/L

starting point approx 2 meq/L end point 3.6 meq/L

Difference = 3.6 - 2 = 1.6 meq/L (is gain in alk)

Alk lost = Added - gain in alk = 4.2 - 1.6 = 2.6 meq/L

Ca lost should be (Alk lost) / 2 x 40 = 2.6 / 2 x 40 = 52 ppm

Observed lost = 420 - 370 = 50 ppm


Your measurements seem to be in agreement with what you have added (if I have not made any errors) and measurement or kit errors can then be excluded.


It is strange that you cannot maintain normal values. :(

[Habib]

A thought that occurred to me right now is the initial low Mg level in your tank.

Have you measured the salinity? If so what value do you get and how did you measure it?

TIA

[theearthling]

My SG is 1.025, measured with one of those swing-arm hydrometers. My Mg was a little low because I had never dosed it since setting up the tank.

[djrab52]

theearthling,

How did you go from region 3 to region 2 in Randy's article? thanks.

[theearthling]

djrab -

I dumped a buttload of Turbo Ca into my tank. Here's a calculator to figure out how much you will need:

http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/cacalc.htm

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Habib
A thought that occurred to me right now is the initial low Mg level in your tank.

Have you measured the salinity? If so what value do you get and how did you measure it?

TIA

What is that thought, Habib? As I stated above, My SG is 1.025 using a swing-arm hydrometer. Are you going to tell me to get a refractometer?

[Habib]

What is that thought, Habib? As I stated above, My SG is 1.025 using a swing-arm hydrometer. Are you going to tell me to get a refractometer?

No, I am not going to tell this. :)

I am just thinking that something is wrong but don't know what.
The reason I am thinking is because of the difficulty in keeping the alk at say 3 meq/L especially since you have a FOWLR.

First I thought perhaps an error by using e.g. 3 ml of test sample instead of 4 ml with the alk test or perhaps even something wrong with the test.

For that purpose I made the calculations in the above post.

Next thought was a rather low salinity since NaCl has a highly significant effect on calcium carbonate solubility.

Which salt are you using?
How much do you dissolve (weight per volume)?

TIA

[theearthling]

I almost always use NSW. Occasionally, I have used Instant Ocean, a little more than 1/2 cup per gallon to reach an SG of 1.025. I'm not sure of the weight.

One point of confusion might be that my tank is not completely fish-only. I am turning it into a reef, though I would like to solve these problems before I continue. I have a small clam (2.5 inches), a bubble coral, a rock with some green star polyps, a couple of SPS frags a frag of zoos, and a small chunk of Galaxia. However, my coral population is so small that it appears to be fish-only from a few feet away.

I always test alk with 4 mL of water.:p

It's hard to tell yet, but from my data, it looks as if my alk is gradually getting easier to maintain at 3 meq/L. A few more days should tell.

[theearthling]

I was re-reading "Calcium and Alkalinity" by Randy, and I'm wondering if I can increase my pH to raise my saturation point. According to that article, it seems as if my supersaturation parameter (omega) is 1, or lower. If I were to raise my pH, say with this "pH Up" stuff that I have, would it increase the ability of my tank to maintain calcium and carbonate?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My recommendations for raising pH are in this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

I'm not sure what pH up is, but there is a very good chance it is something I don't like.:D

Omega = 1 is not a good place to be. What is you pH now (it's missing from your recent data)???

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
My recommendations for raising pH are in this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

I'm not sure what pH up is, but there is a very good chance it is something I don't like.:D

Omega = 1 is not a good place to be. What is you pH now (it's missing from your recent data)???

Yeah. I've read that article, which is why I was dosing Kalk and B-Ionic at the same time. As you can see, it wasn't working in my tank. I'll read that one again, too to see what I missed.

pH up is a product made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. As far as I can tell, it contains Sodium Hydroxide and Deionized water.
pH up data sheet (http://www.aquariumpharm.com/msds/PCmsds/171_PCpHUp.pdf) I had a feeling you wouldn't like it.:rolleyes:

I've updated my data with today's info. My pH is at 8.0.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually, I like sodium hydroxide! Not as much as limewater, and you do need to be aware that it will also raise alkalinity, but at least you get good pH bang for your alkalinity buck.

I thought it might be like some of the freshwater products that I think are phosphate salts and/or buffers.

[theearthling]

Great! So did I interpret your article correctly? Can I raise my omega parameter by boosting the pH with this stuff and using a balanced additive?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes. It will bost both the pH and the alkalinity. Both of those effects will increase the supersaturation, Omega.

[theearthling]

Well, I learned that they don't recommend the use of that stuff in marine tanks, but they have something else (Proper pH 8.2) I might use. If I can find its ingredients, I'll post them here. Here's the quote about pH Up from their site:

Can I use pH Up in a saltwater aquarium?
No. pH Up will precipitate calcium and magnesium, resulting in a white haze in the aquarium. Marine salts are formulated with a large amount of carbonate buffer to stabilize the pH. Each brand has its own unique formula and pH range. Use Proper pH 8.2 to adjust a stabilize pH in saltwater aquariums.

Sounds like exactly what I don't need to have happen...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't believe them for a second. It will only precipitate things if you add too much. It's effect is no different than limewater (in similar doses). That's a disappointing, but not too surprising response, IMO.

Now I believe it is the proper pH that may be phosphates and or mixtures of buffers. Don't fall for that stuff.:D

[theearthling]

Excellent, that's good to hear. I've added some pH Up to my tank, but I don't want to change it quickly, so it will probably take a couple of days before it registers with my test kit. My Ca is low enough that I think my next step will be to dose some more Turbo Ca when I get my Alk to stabilize and my pH is up around 8.3. Then, I'm hoping to get onto a balanced additive. Does that sound sensible?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that sounds like a good plan.:)

[theearthling]

This is getting ridiculous. I've been dosing pH Up for 4 nights in a row, now. My pH goes up after I add the stuff, but it doesn't hold overnight. Yesterday, my pH measured 8.3 about an hour after dosing. 24 hours later, it's back to 8.1. These values are evening highs. Oh, by the way - pH Up does next to nothing to raise alk. A 60 mL addition to my tank raised it from 2.80 to 2.86, raising the pH by 0.1. Well, what do I do? A complete water change? Am I giving up too soon? Should I turn my tank into a snake cage? Would a complete water change even help? Could there be something in my live rock that pulls my water's supersaturation down? This is really getting old.:(

[theearthling]

uh... here's my data again (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html)

[Habib]

I did not notice before that you are measuring the pH with a test kit. There has been an issue with the Salifert pH kit in which one of the indicators went bad rapidly resulting in a slightly lower reading by 0.1 - 0.2 lower.

Also there will often be a small error when using pH test kits in general because you have to add a reagent which can influence the initial pH. Normally such an influence will be larger with lower alkalinity.

It could quite well be that the 8.1 which you are measuring is actually 8.1 or is perhaps even 8.3.

If you really want a very accurate pH measurement then you have to use a pH probe which is properly calibrated with good quality buffers.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've been dosing pH Up for 4 nights in a row, now. My pH goes up after I add the stuff, but it doesn't hold overnight.

FWIW, that's what I would expect. Just as limewater only drives up the pH until CO2 enters the system, and brings it back down. Adding hydroxide or carbonate is mostly a temporary fix unless you add it every day (as limewater folks do).

If pH raising is your goal, you might address the issues of indoor and in tank CO2:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/short.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Habib
I did not notice before that you are measuring the pH with a test kit. There has been an issue with the Salifert pH kit in which one of the indicators went bad rapidly resulting in a slightly lower reading by 0.1 - 0.2 lower.


Interesting. I recently got a new test kit, and tested the water with the old & new side by side. The old kit was 0.2-0.3 lower.

I may look into getting a probe, but I was under the impression it's not necessary to be obsessive about measuring pH. I know it's a good way to get a mental snapshot for the health of your system once you know your tank, but if you're constantly testing everything else do you need to be that accurate with pH?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but if you're constantly testing everything else do you need to be that accurate with pH?

Only when it is not right.:D

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
[BFWIW, that's what I would expect. Just as limewater only drives up the pH until CO2 enters the system, and brings it back down. Adding hydroxide or carbonate is mostly a temporary fix unless you add it every day (as limewater folks do).

If pH raising is your goal, you might address the issues of indoor and in tank CO2:
[/B]

Yeah, I've been through that. I have open windows all the time in my house (don't even have AC). Plus I have done an experiment several times aerating a bucket of tank water outdoors for a few hours, and the pH measured the same as in my tank.

I don't want to have to add this stuff every day. I want to get to the point where Kalk or a Ca Reactor will do the job.

Why is it that if I let my tank sit for a week, dosing max Kalk concentration with topoff (with very few inhabitants), my Ca will drop from 425 to 300, my Alk from 3.5 to 1.5, and my pH from 8.1 to 7.7??

[theearthling]

Sorry if I'm sounding frustrated, and I really appreciate your help, but I've been dealing with this problem since last October!!:( Here is my first thread asking for help:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122675

[theearthling]

Well, much to my surprise, the tests this evening were looking a little more positive.:) My pH has finally hit 8.3, and my alk is at 3.03. As much as I want to get my Ca up, I'm afraid to screw everything up. I took the conservative route of dosing B-Ionic in a 2:1 ratio of Ca to alk to hopefully keep the alk where it is and raise the Ca level a little.

Should I try to keep the levels here for a few days before more aggressively trying to bring the Ca up?

Will my alk be less likely to drop so far if I add calcium chloride now that my pH is higher?

[theearthling]

tank data (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With calciuum down to 275 ppm, I'd correct it now. The B-ionic is an OK way to go. Maybe keep the alk the same addition level, and do 10x calcium and see what happens in a few days.

Alternatively, calcium chloride would be the way to go.

In either case, you will need a lot of calcium supplement.:)

[theearthling]

Ok, I'll try to get the Ca back up. I only have 100g of Turbo Ca left, so I'll start with that. It's a little more than half of what I need.

When I do this again, how do I know the same thing that happened before won't happen again?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When I do this again, how do I know the same thing that happened before won't happen again?

Many things happened in this thread. Which, in particular, are you trying to avoid? The roller coaster of calcium and alkalinity? To solve that, get onto a balanced additive only as soon as possible.

[theearthling]

Sorry, should have been more specific. Last time I dosed a large amount of CaCl on 4/3, I was also using balanced additives. I had Kalk in my topoff, and I used B-Ionic daily. It didn't seem to matter. My alk plummeted to a low of 1.76, and didn't return until I added enough sodium bicarbonate to deplete my Ca. How can I keep this from happening? Or can I? It seems the equilibrium point of my tank is so low that this will be impossible, and I don't know how to raise that point. I think if I left my tank alone it would settle at alk 2.5, Ca 200, pH 7.8. Maybe I should use Viagra.

[Habib]

Maybe I should use Viagra.

Yes YOU should. Don't forget to post the data again. :D

Have you ever measured water change water?

If you want then you may send us some water and we can do some tests.

Regardless if you want to send us some water I would like to suggest that when you add more calcium chloride so that the values are very significantly, above what now appears to be a sort of equilibrium value, you take out after the addition and sufficient mixing about 10 fl. oz. or so water in a clean jar and keep it aside.

I then would measure that water as well after one or two days. Take water samples from testing about an inch below the water surface and without mixing the water in the jar.

It could provide some information if it has to do with your tank or with your water.

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Habib
Yes YOU should.
Hey...:rolleyes:
Don't forget to post the data again. :D
My data (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html) is always in the same place. I just keep posting it so you don't have to scroll to the beginning of the thread.

Have you ever measured water change water?Actually, I was just planning to do this today. I'll let you know my results.

If you want then you may send us some water and we can do some tests.This sounds like an offer I can't refuse!:) Thank you! Just tell me how much you need, where to send it, and how to cover the cost.

Regardless if you want to send us some water I would like to suggest that when you add more calcium chloride so that the values are very significantly, above what now appears to be a sort of equilibrium value, you take out after the addition and sufficient mixing about 10 fl. oz. or so water in a clean jar and keep it aside.

I then would measure that water as well after one or two days. Take water samples from testing about an inch below the water surface and without mixing the water in the jar.

It could provide some information if it has to do with your tank or with your water. That is a very good idea. I wish I had done that after I dumped the CaCl in last night, but I will do it now. FYI, after I dosed CaCl, Mg, Sodium Hydroxide, and Sodium Bicarbonate last night my params looked like this:

pH 8.1
alk 4.16
Ca 420

If only they would stay!!:(

[K. Lee]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but do you have an aragonite sand bed in the tank? If so is it clumping?

I had problems for awhile maintaining Ca levels, even with a calcium reactor. It could be that much of the calcium you are adding is precipitating to the sand, if you have it.

How long has the tank your having difficulty maintaining Ca been set up?

[theearthling]

K. Lee -

Yes, I have a 5" Southdown DSB. And as a matter of fact, there is a little clumping here and there.

My tank has been set up for almost 2 years, but I have only had the DSB for 6 months (since 10/27/02). I didn't discover RC until about 7 months ago, so for the first 1.5 years my tank situation was a mess.

What would cause it to precipitate into the sandbed? How did you solve your problem?

[K. Lee]

Low pH in and on the sand bed would cause the calcium to precipitate out of the water.

What I did beats me. Besides adding tons of Ca and dKH buffers, I did nothing out of the ordinary. Of note, I did have a low Mg level of around 1050 at one point.

I think maybe once the sandbed can except no more Ca, or is saturated by it, your Ca levels will maintain themselves without exert measures.

Your not using "Nature's Own" live sand per chance, are you? I really like the stuff, but I'm looking for any connections at all.

Oops re-read, see you are using different sand, so it, if it is a "phenomena" has nothing to do with "Nature's Own".

How about your salt, Tropic Marin?

[theearthling]

I use NSW almost exclusively. On occasion, I have used Instant Ocean, and I used it when I first set up my tank.

Never have used Nature's Own. I had CC before I put in the DSB.

I had a low Mg level (1100) at one point as well. If the sandbed becomes completey saturated with Ca, won't it be a solid rock? How is your sandbed now?

[K. Lee]

No, I don't think it will based on my experience (limited). My sandbed, however, is about +/- 2 inches over a 2 inch mean depth, approximately.

I don't go digging around, but, I know some of the sand is "petrified" below the surface, and some is attached to rock, but most of it is granular.

So, it is not the salt either. :D

I was going to suggest that you may see a change in abillity to maintain calcium soon, because my Ca began staying where I wanted it about two months ago, IIRC, and my tank (200) was christened last August. However, your sandbed is much deeper than mine. But, (:D) if it is an aragonite issue (seems possible), I think the upper layers of the sand would prevent water from reaching into the depths to precipitate calcium. If this is so, you may see a crust form, but, I imagine there is something else at work besides just lowered pH in the sandbed, maybe phosphorous.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

pH 8.1
alk 4.16
Ca 420

Take a few deep breaths, and walk away from the tank.:D

Don't use anything except balanced additives going forward.

We'll beat this.:)

[Habib]

This sounds like an offer I can't refuse! Thank you! Just tell me how much you need, where to send it, and how to cover the cost

It would not cost you anything besides the shipping from your end.

If you would not manage to bring and keep the values as one might expect then we would check for salinity, Mg, Ca and Alk.

We would increase the values and see what happens. If it would decrease then we might proceed further with testing and try to find the cause.

[theearthling]

Here are the results of my water change test (NSW from my LFS):

pH - 8.0
alk - 2.68
Ca - 350

I thought the pH might be low since it has probably been sitting in a giant plastic container for awhile, but it looks okay. I'm puzzled by the other 2 measurements, especially the Ca. I wish I had tested this water before I did the 30 gallon water change yesterday.:( In the future, I guess I'll have to dose heavily after water changes??

On a side note, I have a couple of sponge filters in my sump (I know, I know - but I clean them often), and when I took them out to clean them today, I noticed that they were rigid, as if filled with Ca precipitate...

Randy, I have gotten onto a balanced additive (B-Ionic), though after my water change, I had to dose more heavily the Ca component.

Habib, Would a quart of water be enough, and what's the address? Do you have any recommendations for the type of contanier I should put it in? I was thinking a jar would probably be okay, even if a little heavy.

tank data (http://www.mindspring.com/~theearthling/aquarium/CaAlkData.html)

Thanks so much, all...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The alkalinity is about what I'd expect for NSW, maybe even a tad high. The calcium is a tad low, but that might just be kit error (or maybe they get it from a place with less than 35 ppt salinity).

[theearthling]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
We'll beat this.:)

Wow... I'm starting to think you're right. My params aren't fabulous, but for once, they're actually responding positively to the use of a balanced additive.:D

Plus, I'm inclined to believe that either due to my Ca kit or my idiosyncrasies in using it, my levels are actually slightly higher than I get in testing.

[Habib]

Earthling:

If you want to send out a water sample :

Salifert Europe b.v.
Attn: Habib
Nieuwgraaf 112-C
6921 RL Duiven
Holland


The calcium on NSW is low and could be the salinity, detection of end-point ot the test kit or a combination of them. Jerel and someone else have reported a similar value recently.

I can have the batch rechecked for you. Can you give the Ca-3's batch number?


EDIT: You asked for the costs. If the problem persists then we will test it for free. The only cost you make is shipping.

ALSO: JUst before shipping please measure the alk and preferably also the calcium. We will need that. :)

[theearthling]

Thanks, Habib.

My Ca test kit batch number is AD-1541. The one I had before that was AD-4351. The test kits seemed to agree when I made the transition, so I figured they were both in good shape.

I may have been too optimistic yesterday as my numbers are creeping down again. My params are like the stock market right now. I know you told me not to test Ca every day, but I... just... can't... help it... I guess it's just my OCD showing.:)

So... I'll be sending you a sample for fun. I'll be sure to test Ca, Alk, and (what the heck) pH and Mg, too.

One thing that's nice is that my pH has been holding stable at an acceptable level for record time...