Sebae and Ritteri

[creilly]

Are anemones aggressive to one another even if they cannot touch one another?
I have a sebae that is doing very well and has even cloned itself. I purchased a ritteri from lfs. It attached to the glass at the sand and my two false perculas took to it within 24 hrs. It looked really well for about a week, and has suddenly taken a drastic turn for the worse. The sebae is doing very well. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
Thanks
Tank: 120 AGA
PH: 8.05
NO3: <5ppm
SG: 1.024

[BonsaiNut]

Ritteriis are some of the most difficult anemones to keep. They will die in some situations where BTA's and other "hardy" species will thrive. Just because one species of anemone is doing fine doesn't mean that ALL anemones will do fine, sad to say :(

I can probably say one thing - if you have a tank where you are keeping S. gigantea alive and healthy, you can probably keep any/all anemones.

[BlAcK_PeRcUlA]

creily,

i dont think you have a sebae if it cloned itself. The anemone that does this more often is a bta.

Yes, anemones can release chemicals to hurt one another even when they are touching

i would raise your salinity to 1.025 and ph to 8.3 if you can to better match NSW.

[jacobdol]

NSW ranges from 1.021-1.025(S.G)

[delphinus]

Originally posted by creilly
Are anemones aggressive to one another even if they cannot touch one another?


Absolutely, positively, emphatically ... yes.

Do a search on "diffuse competition" on this board and you should be able to find some more detailed info.

(I myself will never mix host anemones into the same closed system. It is neither natural nor desireable for two hosting species to be in the same area of a few square feet such as our aquariums .. unless they are clones of one another).

Some anemones are OK together ... some not. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess it's impossible to predict which two will get along and which won't.

[john f]

Maybe,

But I have both a ritteri and a sebea in the same tank with no problems.

They are about 3' apart.



John

[delphinus]

I had E. quad with H. magnifica for almost two years before I ever started having a problem. It wasn't a problem until I let the BTA clones stay in the tank as it divided off. One BTA, one ritteri -- no problem. Two BTA's one ritteri -- no problems. Three BTA's one ritteri -- within a week of the last BTA dividing the ritteri was not expanding as much as it used to. The decline was actually pretty fast and in a panic I started checking all manner of things what could be wrong in the tank. But in the end, I decided, "what if it's the BTA's"? So I pulled them all out, put one in another tank, sold off two -- and it was like an epiphany. Within a day the ritteri started inflating again, within a week it was accepting food again.

It's only anecdotal evidence for sure -- but there's no doubt in my mind that there was some kind of chemical aggression going on.

I think sebae's are less aggessive this way -- there seem to be plenty of examples of tanks out there with a sebae and another anemone. But that doesn't mean the sebae may possess some kind of immunity to chemical aggression against it. I used to have a sebae, had it for two years but it succumbed rather suddenly under mysterious circumstances. Literally, one day it was fine, the next day it was dead. At the time, I again had had three BTA clones in the tank (due mostly to laziness, I wouldn't retreive them off the rocks when there'd be a division). This was several years ago and at the time I had no concept of diffuse competition so I never gave it any thought back then, but looking back at it now, it sure seems to support the theory.

So I do think it's likely that different species have different levels of aggression -- some are more so than others, others are less so than others. Perhaps even there might be variation among different individuals of the same species, but I can only speculate.

I don't recommend everyone go out and buy new tanks so that they can separate out all their anemones, as I did (I keep three species of anemone, and I have three separate tanks to prevent the risk of chemical aggression) .... but I do suggest that if a person is having difficulties with an anemone not doing well, it's one thing to consider: perhaps if it is a multiple anemone environment then perhaps look at chemical aggression as a potential cause.

[john f]

Let me just emphasize Bonsainuts' point.

Ritteri anemones are one of the most difficult anemones to keep. They require very bright light, lots of current, a perch for placement which will keep them from touching the tank walls (tough to do since they get 36" across) frequent feeding, and very good water conditions.

Unless one sets up a tank with H. magnifica in mind it is very unlikely this animal will survive.

Yours probably died for reasons other than the sebae.


John

[delphinus]

Who are you directing your comments to? If you're talking to me then you haven't read my posts very well, as I still have that anemone, several years later. I never said it died, I said it almost died. But the cause was very clearly diffuse competitions.

Yes, H. magnifica is a demanding animal to keep, and most people shouldn't attempt to keep it as they cannot maintain the requirements necessary for long-term survival.

BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT DIFFUSE COMPETITION IS VERY REAL. But hey, don't listen to me; go ahead and take your own risks, and we'll cry for you when you come here posting that your anemones are dead. Go ahead and put all the anemones you want into your tank and watch what happens.

[BonsaiNut]

I have a great picture from one of my tanks with a male A. melanopus tending his nest right between an E. quadricolor and S. haddoni :) I didn't plan it that way, the anemones just cuddled up to one another. I didn't see any direct competition, though they were the only anemones in a 125L.

I have to get the photo changed over from a slide. I took it in 1990, before the advent of digital cameras :)

[delphinus]

More comments .. If the ritteri is not doing well and it is a recent purchase, it likely isn't diffuse competition as it will take some time for the condition to occur (if it occurs), i.e., years of being good neighbours and all of a sudden a decline of one or the other and no other attributable cause. Rather, more likely what's happening here is that the specimen was weakened to the point of no return far before it ever came home. These animals are stressed by the collection/distribution/retail process and many don't recover at all. That's probably why these are better left to the ocean in the first place.

H. magnifica should never be attempted by anyone other than the most experienced aquarists and even then it should be a dedicated setup rather than a haphazard/ecclectic collection of various reef inhabitants.

[john f]

Settle down dude!!!

I did not say diffuse competion was not real.

I did misread the original post to think his ritteri had died, when he said it had only taken a turn for the worse.

It's just IN THIS CASE I would guess it is not from diffuse competition, but rather an improper environment and possibly an animal in poor health to begin with.


"Rather, more likely what's happening here is that the specimen was weakened to the point of no return far before it ever came home"

Agreed.
That and again a probably improper environment leading to failure to acclimate to captive conditions.



John

[delphinus]

Sorry John -- I guess it's a point that hits home for me, everytime I suggest it's not a good idea to put too many anemones together into the same system, inevitably it seems someone replies with "well that's obviously incorrect because I [or so-and-so] has blah-blah-blah together and doesn't have a problem." I guess the point I want to emphasize is that it's not a "guaranteed" problem, but neither is it guaranteed that it "won't eventually become" a problem down the road.

I've seen ritteris at LFS's all over the place and more often than not they're in pretty terrible condition. The handling of them must be very rough and I doubt they're being fed in a distributors tanks. One thing I've noticed with this species in particular (maybe I should say, at least it is with mine in particular, I don't know about others), a completely insatiable appetite. It needs to eat a LOT, mine sure does. It eats and eats and eats, and keeps on eating. It wouldn't surprise me that it wouldn't take very much of a dry spell of no feeding, for it to begin to starve and begin disgesting its own tissue (a sure point of no return). :(

I don't know what to suggest to the original poster of this thread. First of all, you're going to need a lot of light, and a lot of water current (ideally even a surging current such as a dump bucket, or perhaps a surge device like a Borneman flapper-style or perhaps a Carlson style surger ... or perhaps even something like a seaswirl maybe?). The choice of substrate is also significant; H. mag is going to want to sit atop a coral bommie (aka "a pile of rocks." The reason for this is because this is usually the spot that is exposed to the most current and the most light happens to be such a place. If the anemone can sense that it can move upwards, it may want to. Very often what happens with this anemone is it notices the front pane of glass in the aquarium -- and guess where the most current is, and the most light? And so it decides that that's where it wants to be, and the aquarist ends up with a frustrating view of the underside of the pedal disk). And it should be fed, perhaps a high proteinous food such as mysis, failing that, perhaps anything that it will eat will be a good start. Silversides, shrimp, krill, ... ? If the food floats off the tentacles without a feeding (ie. nematocyst) response, ... big trouble. That means the anemone IS badly weakened, and it may already be too late. Maybe in that case, turn off your current for 5-10 minutes and try to place some food around it's mouth and maybe it can ingest the food that way (be sure not to overdo it though since any undigested food may start to rot faster than it can be digested, which would probably be bad news by itself). I don't know what else to suggest ... good luck.

Definitely you may want to consider only keeping one or the other in this tank long term. Both anemones can get quite large and easily overcrowd a 4' tank. Ritteri's, when healthy, can get up to 30" or more in diameter. (That's a BI-I-I-I-G anemone....). Sebae's probably top the scales at around 20" or so, but if you think about it, that's still almost half of 48" ... :eek:

Good luck!

[creilly]

I have been enlightened, sort of. The ritteri did not make it.:( The comments made here have been helpful in at least knowing what I might have done wrong. I am going to go with the competition theory, and a weakened animal from shipping. I have 5" deep sand Bed, 400 watt 10K Halide Lights w/ Actinics, and 2 1" Sea Swirl Returns mounted at the front of the Tank. I placed the animal in the front corner on the sand bed. And like I said It appeared to be doing very well; the clowns took to it immediately, I was feeding it chunks of Formula One which it gladly took, and it was opening up to about an 8" disc when the lights were on. Thanks for all the comments and info.

[john f]

"I placed the animal in the front corner on the sand bed"

As far away from the lights and current as possible!!!!




It MAY have been the competition; if that makes you feel better.

I am sorry to hear about the loss however.....

John

[creilly]

To John F

Should I have placed it up on the rocks?

If that is the case I need 1000w MH, just kidding.

Thanks for the info.

[john f]

Maybe you know about my setup?


I actually have my H. magnifica directly under a 1000 watt Radium, although under about 2 feet of water.

It is also atop a coral bombie that is blasted by current.




John

[delphinus]

A 1000W Radium. Sch-weet... :inlove:

Do you have a website John, or any pictures you can share? I'd love to see it. You must have a fantastic setup.

Here is a picture of mine:

http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/temp/72g/ritt2.jpg

This picture was taken about two months ago after the anemone was moved out of one tank that it had outgrown, into this one. So there's not a lot of coraline coverage showing in this picture although there's plenty now and I should really get off my butt and take a newer picture (I'm terrible at taking pictures of my tanks). This tank is only lit by two 175W 10000K's, so a far cry compared to your setup. There's no doubt in my mind the anemone could adapt to much more lighting, but unfortunately with three reef tanks on the go all lit by halides, I can't afford much more draw on my monthly hydro bill. :(

One thing I've noticed is that this anemone digs it when the sunshine hits the tank. One day I'd like to maybe setup a tank that takes more advantage of natural sunlight, who knows where that could go.

CReilly: sorry to steal your thread, and sorry for your loss. It's very frustrating when we lose our animals. Good luck with your sebae though, hopefully that will continue to do well for you.