Getting a mate for my maroon Gold Stripe

[rscdragon]

Hello All,

I am interested in getting a mate for my maroon gold stripe clown. I have had him/her for about a year and 5 months. I was told to find one bigger than what I have. my gold stripe is about 2-3" long. Is this what I should do? How should I aclimate him so that they won't beat up on each other? Any advise would help. Also, is it true when a clown is by them self for a long period of time they become female.

Thanks,

Rob

[JHardman]

Hi Rob

Well... how should I put it, oh well the heck with it. You got very bad advice that would likely lead to the death of one or both clowns!!!

Your clownfish is a female by now. A clownfish kept by it's self will become female in as little as a month. 17 months, it's a female for sure.

Maroons are the most aggressive of the clownfishes. Female Maroons are the bad ####'es of the clownfish world. If you were to add a larger or similar sized Maroon, you would have a fight to the death. It takes a lot for a Maroon to back down from a fight.

Your best chance of a successful pairing would be to get a sexually immature Maroon and slowly introduce the new clownfish to your female's tank. You can do this with a specimen container (make sure your water can flow thru it) or some egg crate that will keep them separate or at least allow the little clown to escape to safety.

The smaller (<= 1") you can get the new Maroon the better. It would also help if you can get the smallest Maroon from a community tank of many juvenile Maroons. This is for two reasons.

1) You increase the likelihood that the new fish will be sexually immature. The last thing you want is another female. The new fish will become a male if there is a successful pairing.

2) Female clownfish are dominate, and the new fish will have to submit to the female fast to keep the violence to a minimum. So if the new fish is so small it can not possibly survive a fight it will most likely submit right away saving it's self.

The little clown should exhibit submissive behavior, e.g. spasms/shaking and turn broad side to the female.

Bottom line clowns will do what they want; they do not read the Internet or books. Be ready to rescue the new clown if the fighting gets too bad.

Let us know how it goes.

[Heavydc2]

I second that. your worst mistake would be to get a bigger one. Gte it as small as you possibly can. Then you might be ok.

[manderx]

i've read several places that a solitary clown does not turn into a female. i think one of those places was joyce wilkerson's book.

i recently added a large GS maroon to my existing small one that i have had for at least 6 months. the big one spent the night in a breeder-box. i was expecting some gestures through the plastic, but there was nothing so i let it out the next day. it's been 2 weeks and there hasn't been a hint of aggression between the two. if anything, they act completely oblivious of each other. this is in a 20Hex with 2 bubble tips.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by manderx
i've read several places that a solitary clown does not turn into a female. i think one of those places was joyce wilkerson's book.

The reference for the single clownfish becoming a female can be found in the Joyce's book.

Pages 132 and 134 talk about the signals that clownfish use in their environment to determine what sexes of fishes are needed in the environment. The signal that a female is needed is the lack of a female in the environment. So a single clownfish kept by it’s self will have the signal to become a female, and will do so in as little as a month, this amount of time for a female sex change is also documented on page 134.

Further, on page 135 the first paragraph talks about Joyce's experience when she wanted a break from breeding and separated her pair and ended up with two females.

I would be interested is reading the references that you mention, could you provide me with the information (website, book and author, etc.)?

TIA

[Eduardo]

Get the smaller you can, this work for me. Look at http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110926

Eduardo

[manderx]

Originally posted by JHardman
The reference for the single clownfish becoming a female can be found in the Joyce's book.

I would be interested is reading the references that you mention, could you provide me with the information (website, book and author, etc.)?

TIA

ok, i finally got my copy of her book back from a friend. page 27 clearly states (i'm parapharsing here to keep it short since you already have the book and can get the exact quote):

when a juvenile finds an empty anemone (similar to getting an immature juvenile from the store and putting it in your tank without another clown) it 'grows rapidly from adolescent to male'. it stops here, and doesn't continue to female until another non-female clownfish of the same species arrives.

her example on page 132-135 is when the female was removed and the sexually mature male 'ascended to the throne'. a quite different situation from a juvenile going to male and then female on it's own.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by manderx
ok, i finally got my copy of her book back from a friend. page 27 clearly states (i'm parapharsing here to keep it short since you already have the book and can get the exact quote):

when a juvenile finds an empty anemone (similar to getting an immature juvenile from the store and putting it in your tank without another clown) it 'grows rapidly from adolescent to male'. it stops here, and doesn't continue to female until another non-female clownfish of the same species arrives.

her example on page 132-135 is when the female was removed and the sexually mature male 'ascended to the throne'. a quite different situation from a juvenile going to male and then female on it's own.

I think you are reading too much into her statement on page 27. She does not state that it stops at "male", in fact it is implied that it may have developed into a female. To quote...

A new social unit begins when the anemone attracts a second settling juvenile of the same species. The senior fish, if it is still a male, then promptly transforms into a female, while the younger fish matures into a male and does not develop further.

Her examples on pages 132-135 do not specifically talk just about the loss of a female and it's replacement. This section talks specifically about the sex change process in clownfish and mentions in the last paragraph how a lost female or male would be replaced by the process that she lays out in the proceeding five paragraphs.

First and second paragraphs, page 134

If it’s social surroundings lacks a male, the sensory nerves of an adolescent clownfish stimulate its hypothalamus to start pumping out hormones that cause the fish to grow, become more aggressive, and develop into a functioning male. Once a clownfish becomes a male, it cannot return to being an adolescent again.

Further, if the clownfishe's social surroundings lacks a female, the hormonal balance then changes in the male. {snip about the hormones etc.} This hormonal shift causes the male fish to grow more and become more aggressive, and he soon develops ovaries and becomes a functioning female.

So to sum it all up...

Joyce specifically states that clownfish determine their sex based on the lack of male and female fish in the environment. If a clownfish is kept by it's self, it has both of the signals to transform into a male then a female. Joyce specially states in the first paragraph on page 135 that when she separated her breeding pair that the male turned into a female. I did not at the time, have the forethought to predict what I now know all to well: in the absence of the female, Claude (read male) had become Claudia (read female).

[manderx]

Originally posted by JHardman

I think you are reading too much into her statement on page 27. She does not state that it stops at "male", in fact it is implied that it may have developed into a female. To quote...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A new social unit begins when the anemone attracts a second settling juvenile of the same species. The senior fish, if it is still a male, then promptly transforms into a female, while the younger fish matures into a male and does not develop further.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




so why wasn't the senior fish (or both actually) already a female? if it has the ability to 'promptly transform into a female' why did it take the introduction of a younger fish? she worded it like that to cover situations when a female is left alone and another unsexed juvenile arrives, or when a female arrives when there's only an unsexed juvenile.





quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First and second paragraphs, page 134

If it’s social surroundings lacks a male, the sensory nerves of an adolescent clownfish stimulate its hypothalamus to start pumping out hormones that cause the fish to grow, become more aggressive, and develop into a functioning male. Once a clownfish becomes a male, it cannot return to being an adolescent again.

Further, if the clownfishe's social surroundings lacks a female, the hormonal balance then changes in the male. {snip about the hormones etc.} This hormonal shift causes the male fish to grow more and become more aggressive, and he soon develops ovaries and becomes a functioning female.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So to sum it all up...

Joyce specifically states that clownfish determine their sex based on the lack of male and female fish in the environment. If a clownfish is kept by it's self, it has both of the signals to transform into a male then a female. Joyce specially states in the first paragraph on page 135 that when she separated her breeding pair that the male turned into a female.




you're overlooking the key words 'social surroundings'. being a lone juvenile fish is hardly 'social'.

thanks for typing in all the quotes so i didn't have to :)

[JHardman]

Well I guess we are going to have to disagree then. Too bad Joyce doesn't post to RC. I am sure she would explain it better for you.

[manderx]

well, at least you didn't point out my speeling/grammer mistakes:D

[traveller7]

If you choose one small enough you will definitely have a "juvenile" and the debate on the sex of the existing specimen will likely be moot. I would try to find a one inch specimen.

If you are looking for another GSM, at 1" size they will likely still have the white stripes. Might need to go captive raised to be sure, not a bad choice regardless.

Good luck.