prop tank-donations needed

[bookfish]

Hi all, here's some stuff we still need:
heater-250 or 300 watt
lighting-Matt and I feel that pc's or vhos w/no ( normal output) actinic supplementation should work for this system and in an efort to get things moving we would like to proceed along this path. Matt has offered up a pair of waterproof endcaps for the actinics and he's looking for a ballast at his place. Before we order new lighting from Eddie I thought I would throw this up on the board. Basically unless someone wants to donate some vhos w/reflector or pc's w/ ref. I'm planning on asking Eddie to order us 2 55w retros w/ 50/50 bulbs. These can easily go into the canopy we're using. One other thing before you offer up lighting is that I understand the tank is not quite 4 feet in length so a 48" bulb is too long for the system. Matt mentioned there are some slightly shorter bulbs-46"? and I'll be looking into this.
Also a shallow sand bed has been added-2"? and I will be starting on the rockwork soon.
This is the club tank so let's hear any other ideas people might have .-Jim

[crystalball]

you can have a piece of live rock out of my tank, no its wild, bought them directly from fiji. let me know.. might be able to give up 1 100w heater, best to run mutiple low wattage heaters... no lighting parts, but have some extra pvc fittings, just let me know a list of what is needed....

[johnvlahos]

I have two Advance Ballasts for NO fluorescents (ran 2x48" bulbs each) as well as several used bulbs. Are these useful?

jv

[RustySnail]

Not really sure what the amount of lighting that you plan is; you mentioned ordering 2 55W pc lamps. Could you describe this setup? Are you saying 2 55W lampls plus NO actinics? Somehow this seems like very little lighting for a 55g.

IME; for a 55g tank you should have a minimum of 300 watts. That equates to approximately 6 55W PC lamps or 3 110W VHO's.

I had offered a 4x HO ballast for a supplemental lighting; but I'm not sure if it will fire VHO's at a lower wattage (a test would be in order here). I think the HO lamps are 60watts each. If you want it it's yours, so long as it gets used. If you don't want to use it; I would just put it on my new setup as suplemental lighting; instead of getting an IceCap for that pupose. This 4X fixture with a pair of PC lamps would be just enough (IMHO)

Based on your prior post; it sounds like you could use some more sand. 2" it pretty thin for a DSB; remember that it takes 3-4 inches to attain the proper depth to create anaerobic conditions. If the sandbed layer is too shallow, it will just reduce organics to nitrate. Given the non-reef LR; (IE more dense rock); and shallow sandbed, I would predict nitrate problems. I'll offer a bag of the dolowhite sand to help this; or if the club would rather stick with the aragonite sand I would suggest buying another bag or two.

When would you need the rock? Let me know what you want of the stuff I've offered and if I should just bring it to TP or who to hand it off to.

Russ

[bookfish]

Hi Russ, I think I must have missed your lighting offer earlier, sorry for that. I don't know that much about the electrical side of this hobby, ballasts, wiring etc. I would love to take you up on this but you'd prob. have to help me with the wiring/ testing. Also I need to make sure there is no hazard in the setup re: overdriven ballasts etc. As far as the amt. of lighting, I agree this is on the low side but it's what I run on my 55 at home with good results-although I obviously steer clear of sps's. We have a limited budget for the project ($200.00) and I'd like to put new bulbs in for whatever lighting we use. As far as sand goes, I agree we need more but I thought I might set some of the rocks in first.
If the rock you're offering is out of your tank-but not originally from the ocean, I think once we get the base rock and sand bed in, water, heater and sump and lighting, then we should look for "live rock"
Can you hold this rock for a few weeks
-Jim

[RustySnail]

You mentioned budget; where do we stand there? How much money have we spent; and what is the remaining money allocated for? How much is the 2x 55W set going to cost?

If we get a good deal on the VHO's; you're looking at about $125 for a set of them. Because the canopy is not a full 48" long, we are looking at having to buy lamps from the aquarium store only; I don't believe HD stocks the 46" full spectrum lamps.

As far as this subject goes; I think that we might be better off with just a single IceCap 660. The lamps will run longer because of the electronic ballast and require less in terms of replacement and replacement cost.

In fact; it might be time to think about asking for Mfr sponsorship to help with the cost. We could approach IceCap and URI; asking them if they could donate a ballast/lamps for our "totally propagated system".

Don't get me wrong; I would be happy to give the club magnetic ballast that I have; but in terms of long-term cost it might be less expensive to buy the IceCap or even better; acquire it via a donation.

The rock that I am offering is base rock that is dry. It was quarried from hawaii; and looks to be calcium based; but it is dense rock. I have not seen the non-reef rock that Eddie has; but I would not expect much better than this rock. If we want to add something with life aboard, we could either take some and put it into our own tanks to get stuff going on it, or maybe put some into eddie's LR holding tanks (if he would allow it). Otherwise; a small purchase of LR from a company that aquacultures it (Tampa-Bay or Gulf-View) might be in order. The biggest hurdle here is getting the right life going on the rock and in enough abundance to support the system. Hopefully the sandbed will kick in and carry the load at first.

Russ

[gketell]

I've been talking a lot with Andy H at IceCap recently so I just sent him an email asking whether IceCap can/will sponsor our tank. I'll let everyone know what the results are.

Cross your fingers.
GK

[crystalball]

depending on how long it takes to culture the rock, I can take a few pieces, if the are small i can probably take all of it, and place it under direct lighting, (this tank does not have aptasia) but i think it would be great if everyone took a piece and placed it in their tanks, including the base rock, this would trully give a diverse population to the rock, IMO placing the rock in a live rock holding tank is not as good, most of the rock in there is in a die off stage, with not enough lighing for coraline algea to form, my base rock is developing zoos I dont think that they would do this in a holding tank.

[RustySnail]

That's great Greg!!

Always best to use an established contact in these situations.

CB- Let's hear some more input on the rock issue first. I'd be happy to let everyone take a few pieces to try and tank seed it; but ideally I'm sure we would want to get some rockwork started in the display tank as soon as possible. Maybe we could check with Eddie and see if he would be willing to donate some rubble/grunge to help seed the system (if that's not out of the question in terms of the project).

-Russ

[bookfish]

Hi all, went to TP this morning, added another bag of sand (bed depth now 4")and washed 35# of base rock and put it in the tank. I believe I spent either 55.00 or 60.00 of the remaining $200.00.
I belive that we can get 2, 55 watt pc retro kits for around $100.00-$110.00 from Eddie but I'll ask him about mfg. donations.
Obviously if Icecap wants to donate a lighting system that would be great and we could just save the money for sno-cones! As far as I know we have bought 3 bags of sand-can't remember if they're $20.00 or $25.00 and 35# of base rock at a buck/lb. Total-$75.00-$85.00. If I heard Matt right we had $200.00 left before todays purchases.

WE STILL NEED A SUMP!
if anyone has a 20g high (acrylic preferred, cracked but repairable ok, scratches don't matter) Please drop it at TP and post here also.
thx-Jim

[gketell]

Icecap is willing to help. They want to strongly encourage captive propagations systems.

They will be providing a pair of Model 430's, Pair of 6.5K T-5 HO lamps (46" long) with waterproof endcaps and standoffs.

So we can use those on one 430 and then whatever else on the other 430. Andy doesn't recommend the PCs very highly "unless you don't have the room for linear lamps". Maybe some 46.5" T-8 NO/HO 50/50 bulbs on the other ballast to balance out the color some?

GK

[Reefer Dude]

This is what I can donate if it is need. Please contact me if you are interested. I can dontae:

All the sand you need or want
All the rock you need or want
VHO Bassast
Several misc. VHO bulbs.
20 acrylic tank.

I have a lot os stuff so e-mail me if you are looking for something. I would like to donate it to the club before I try to sell it.

[gketell]

Justin,

The 20 Acrylic is a definite! I or one of the others (whoever has more time sooner) can modify it to fit under the stand.

The VHOs: if you have the 46.5" bulbs, definitely.

Sand and Rock: I leave up to the others.

I can come get it if you like or, if you are going to Eddie's for anything, you can drop it there.

GK

[Tenner]

Hey All,

Justin , good to hear from you.

Can you believe my luck, had my galbladder removed yesterday, cool think is my tv in my room has internet access...

Thanks to everyone for jumping in here. Only one item to remind everyone of, the goal is to have nothing directly from the coean. So, old live rock is a no, aquacultured rock is a no also.

Justin, do you remember where the sand came from . I also bought some of it online at ebay. It sure didn't seem to be "live", but it might hvve been brought from the ocean. I think you had talked with them.

Greag, great job on contacting Icecap, we of course will reciprocate by putting their logo on our site, could you please ask them for it.

Robin is our sponsohip seeker, so I will fill her in.

Sorry about my spelling and grmmer, I'm on some really good medinein, and this keyboard stinks.

Thanks all,
Matthew

PS, Russ thanks for offering up the rock, when do you expect to get it?

[gketell]

Originally posted by Tenner
Greag, great job on contacting Icecap, we of course will reciprocate by putting their logo on our site, could you please ask them for it.
Already done. I also asked if they had any formal "text" they wanted us to use.

GK

[Reefer Dude]

The sand I still have is 90% southdown. The rock I have is from Hawaii and it was dug up during a construction project. Yes at one time it did come from the sea, but it has been dead for a long time.

Matt,
I hope you are feeling okay after your surgery. I am going to drop you a line in the next week with a list of stuff I have to see if the club is interested in any of it. Figure I will try to donate it to a good cause befre I sell it.

[RustySnail]

Get well soon Matthew! Pesky galbladders... who needs em eh?
Hope your recovery is speedy and complete :rollface:

To answer your question about the rock Matthew... I have two 50# boxes of it sitting on the front porch. I just need to pick some out for my setup and the rest I'm willing to donate. Justin mentioned that he has HI quarried rock; sounds like the same as I bought. How much additional do we need to finish the setup?

I was just thinking that it might be a good idea to do a LR trade. If several club members brought a piece of their LR it would seed the rock in the tank much faster; with the benefit of having a setup that is more ready to accept coral frags. Of course the seed rocks would be returned to their owners after a few months. Meanwhile if each person that brings a piece takes a piece of dry rock and puts in their tank, that rock will also become seeded; and when traded back it will further seed the project tank.

Great to hear that we have IceCap's sponsorship.... Many thanks to Greg for working with his contact @ IC to get the donation(s).

Thanks for the offer of Sand/Rock Justin! As well as the other equipment that you may have to offer. Looks like we have the sand pretty much covered; unless we want to add more into the sump/refugium. I had wanted to get some from you for my 150; I could pick some up for both the club and myself this weekend if you are available.

OK... We got a donated light set... Who should we target for the skimmer?!! :D

Russ

[gketell]

Euro-Reef, if Eddie can get them to help. Their skimmer is much less persnickety.

[bookfish]

Great news from all fronts. Sounds like our lighting issues are solved thanks to Greg and Icecap-good work.
Russ, We currently have 35# of Eddies base rock in the tank. I picked pcs. that I thought could be used in different configurations and put it in the tank in a sample arrangement that I assume we will redo somewhat as we add to it. For that reason I basically put it in to look ok alone but better as more is added. I'd be interested in hearing peoples opinion re: what aquascaping they would prefer. For example, I think a full back wall is really boring and doesn't use the space effectively.
Some examples I've used and like:
Mountain, valley, mountain- just like it sounds, valley in middle of tank , 2 "mountains" with bright tops- mostly I do this when there is a divider in the tank that would make a dimmer middle stripe anyway.
Standing wave-a series of flattened rocks placed upright , one behind the other to imply movement. This is my current favorite and makes for a really pretty tank.
Mountain and trees-single mountain in tank-not centered! capnella etc. trees, gsp and tubipora grass etc... better for a cube type tank I think.
Since I didn't want to buy too much of the Utah rock-expecting donations- we can easily go with any aquascape we would like since the 35# is basically just loose pcs. sitting on the sand.
I also think that a more "open" look is most appealing so I'd prefer (if the club agrees) not to just make shelves and supports.
The final placement of rock will be a group event and any club members should feel free to help or just stop by and suggest placement options.
I like the standing wave design myself and I'd ask that donations of flat, sheetlike, large rocks be dropped at TP. If we go with a more shelf-like decor then these would be used for shelves.
How would Sunday morning be to meet and place the rocks, let's say 11 am to about noon. -Jim

[gketell]

If Eddie has no luck getting us a Euro-Reef skimmer I have a brand new RedSea skimmer that the tank can have.

GK

[bookfish]

Greg, would one skimmer or the other be better in the small space under the stand or would either one fit ok?-Jim

[gketell]

The Euro-Reefs are shorter but are designed to be in-sump. So I'm not 100% sure if we can get one to fit inside our non-standard sump that we will have to be making. They do come with their own pump though.

The Red Sea skimmer I have is designed to be either in or out of the sump but will require a pump.

Which is better? Eddie says the Euro-reef.

GK

[Tenner]

Hey all,

Eddie has given me the contact information for Euro-Reef. I will try them on Monday. keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks
Matthew

[Tenner]

Jim,

I was just at TP, Russ was there also. Russ brought some of the quarried rock from Hawaii. Just wanted to let you know so it wasn't a surprise.

We really need a sump to get water rolling in the system.

Thanks all,
Matthew

[RustySnail]

Uh... Has no-one noticed the small sump that is sitting inside of the cabinet? Looks to be about a 10-15 gallon wet-dry. Look inside of the left cabinet door. Who donated it??

I had not seen the 'club-tank' until today. It is in a great spot and a really nice cabinet/stand/tank that Eddie has given for the club set-up.

We just rinesed off the rock I bought and placed it inside of the tank. If you want to re-arrange it; feel free. It was not specially placed or anything.


Russ

[bookfish]

just got back from TP, saw the new rock, nice looking stuff. Thanks Russ! I stacked it. The filter in the stand is the wet/dry Eddie was using on the tank before. If we could go with something bigger (taller) it would be preferable. Also, Eddie didn't offer this up to us. -Jim
ps. Matt, can I get a green Nepthea frag sometime?

[RustySnail]

Jim-

I did not take a really close look; does the tank have a drilled bottom? If it is not drilled, we could go ahead and fill it and just use powerheads to circulate water until we get a sump fabricated. There is no big rush to have a running sump yet (IMHO), unless you think it will be a-lot easier to route plumbing. We will need to innoculate the system with critters (sand and maybe a couple of live rocks) once it is filled with water.

Remember that it will take a bit more time to have this tank ready to support corals; I'm thinking 2-3 months from when we innoculate it and add startrer fish. At least that is what I recall it taking to fully cycle a FO tank. Dr. Ron has said that a tank will colonize with bacteria in a matter of days; but I have a feeling he is referring to a tank started with LR and LS. Are we going to start the system with fish or with an ammonia source or ??


Russ

[bookfish]

Hi Russ, nope, not drilled but Eddie has offered the overflow he used for the tank before. I assume we will be seeding the sand bed with live critters from someone's sump/DSB.
I haven't done a DSB before but I'd like to think we could put some hardier corals in almost immediately (the unstoppable anthelia comes to mind-thx Gusty!) I agree that we could start with just water circulating in the tank and I'll get it going as soon as poss.-Jim

[RustySnail]

Hmmm.... Somehow we are going to have to get a bio-cycle established in the tank befeore we add corals. Some people just put raw fish or shrimp in and it's decomposition generates ammonia. Being that the system is essentially sterile; I think we should at least be sure it has had a healthy cycle (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike) prior to putting in corals. Another way to do this would be to put in some uncured LR; and let the tank cycle. Once cycled; remove the LR. I know we are trying to avoid use of 'direct from ocean' stuff; but we also need to assure that the animals we introduce are going into a stable, healthy environment.

Let's put it this way... We could put corals and fish in immediately and then in 3 months it could decide to cycle and kill everything (or at least cause a good deal of die-off). You would not believe how intense a cycle event can be with a FO system; it's pretty harsh on the inhabitants (if any). Most people nowadays don't see it because of the use of LR; which is cured. Or if they put uncured LR in it cycles quickly and before adding corals/fish.

Maybe just taking 10-20 gallons of the water from Eddie's LR holding tank (after he gets a new shipment) would be enough to generate a bio-cycle...

In terms of innoculation; I will bring in a cup of sand from my tank to the next meeting; if anyone else wants they can too (the more the better); unless your system has the dreaded flatworms present...

Russ

[gketell]

How about some of that bacteria in a bottle? I still have a 1/2 gallon of it that we could use.

GK

[RustySnail]

Greg-

If you are willing to donate it, great. It is still MHO that we need to establish the tank by making sure that it cycles well. That means a good ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike(s) followed by an algae bloom. Placing in some uncured rock (temproarily) if Eddie will allow it would really go a long way to getting it running smoothly. Otherwise; I think we should go to putting in seed rocks from members tanks if we want something capable of supporting life (sooner).

Getting a tank established is the hardest part of system setup. If it is done properly; you'll have little trouble and if not you'll have big headaches. I really think that establishment is going to take a bit longer with this tank because of the non-live rock and low porosity of the rocks we are using. Hopefully the LS will pick up the slack; but it takes a fair bit of time for it to fully colonize.

JMHO...

Russ

[bookfish]

True, better to have patience and wait for the tank to cycle properly.
-Justin- thanks for the offer of the acrylic sump. Can you arrange to drop it at TP or should I come pick it up?
thx_JIM