Saltwater In My Bubble Counter *In Desperate Need of Help!*

[Canadian]

Alright, I posted this under a different title before and I only got one response, so I'll try it again.

For some reason my PM-like DIY Ca Reactor is causing my bubble counter to fill up with water from the reactor chamber.

I've temporarily remedied the situation by putting a check valve between the output side of the bubble counter and the reactor lid (in addition to the one on the input side of the bubble counter; between the bubble counter and the CO2 tank).

Unfortunately the additional check valve is just treating some symptoms and not getting to the root of the problem. I'd really appreciate it if someone could provide some insight into this. At first I thought that the problem was that my effluent flow rate was too slow and was therefore causing some additional pressurization, but I increased the flow to no avail.
Then I thought that maybe the additional pressure was the result of the feed pump I'm using to feed the reactor (miniJet 404). This pump is throttled right back but I think that maybe it's adding water too fast (I used to gravity feed the reactor but found that air was collecting in the chamber).
My final hypothesis is that the flow through the reactor is being impeded by compaction or the fact that the sponge in the bottom of the reactor is also impeding flow.

Of course there's the possibility that all of the above play a role and that what is happening is that they are collectively increasing the pressure inside the chamber to the point that the path of least resistance is towards the CO2 guage set at 18 PSI.

What do you think?

I REALLY need help with this!

[eddie]

id have to see the reactor or a diagram to try say why its filling with water but on a side note have you ever seen the 5-50ccm flow meters that you can replace the bubble counter all together with?

[Ewan]

maybe try the check valve on the feed side of the bubble counter.

I don't think the minijet would be the source, I used a mag250, and this wasn't a problem.

E.

[Snailman]

If you think about the line from the bubble counter to the reactor. it has Co2 on one end of it and water on the other end of it. They are each pushing on their end. :) The one with more pressure will overcome the other one. Put the check valve on the CO2 tank end of the bubble counter and adjust the CO2 regulater to push the water back into the reactor where it belongs and also let the CO2 bubble into the reactor. I had this problem until I replumed my reactor. The original design had a cross wher CO2 came in one leg across from the pump intake and the supply water came in across from the main chamber output. I have a gate valve on the water supply line and I had trouble even letting any water in before it backed up the CO2 line. This also caused the CO not to bubble. I replumed the system and I put a tee in the recirculation pump input line very near the pump input for the CO2 and another tee father away from the pump but still on the input side for the supply water. This arangment works great. The supply water gate valve is wide open and the CO2 bubbles very nice and regular and I have no backups at all. :)

[Northern Reef]

Is saltwater in the bubble counter necessarily a problem?

[reefmanic]

If your co2 output from your bubble counter goes right to the suction end of your recirc pump then you shouldn't have a problem,and you should install the check valve there to prevent backflow should you shut the reactor down.

[Snailman]

Originally posted by Northern Reef
Is saltwater in the bubble counter necessarily a problem?

No Problem at all. The problem is calcium laden saltwater overpowering the CO2 and backing back up the CO2 line into the bubble counter. Being ther is not the problem. It is how it got there that is the problem. :)

[Canadian]

Here's the operative part of my dilemma: my PM-like DIY Ca Reactor. The CO2 is not injected on the intake side of the recirculation pump. It's injected into the top of the chamber and down into the media.

Here's a pic for reference:

http://www.precisionmarine.com/Calcium_Reactors/cr622lg.GIF

[OrionN]

Is salt water in the bubble counter a problem?
I built my own counter. I essencally a chamber with CO2 input on the bottom, tank water input on the top and CO2 + water out put draw out from the middle of the chamber(top with extension to middle of the chamber)
With this counter, the water is in the lower half of the counter, CO2 in top half. I can visually see the flow of input tank water and estimate it. I can also count the number of bubbles and estimate the amount of CO2 enter the reactor.

[OrionN]

>>The CO2 is not injected on the intake side of the recirculation pump
I think you need to redo this part of the reactor. CO2 need to get blenderize and disolve by the pump. It is much more effective if the CO2 in-put is at the pump intake.
I am having problem with your picture. Somehow, I am not able to see the picture you posted.

[Northern Reef]

FWIW, I started with my bubble counter two-thirds full of RO water, and it is now completely full, so I'm guessing there is saltwater in there. Doesn't affect operation at all. I'm sure when I shut the system down, some backs up in the counter even though there are check valves in-line.....we all know how reliable check valves are. ;)

I still don't see that it's a problem.

[Canadian]

Larry,

I don't think that the saltwater in the bubble counter is in itself a problem, it's what this is indicative of that concerns me.

If water from the reactor is making its way into the bubble counter then that means that the pressure from the CO2 tank isn't enough to be forcing CO2 into the chamber at maximum efficiency. It also means that potentially a great deal of CO2 isn't actually making it into the chamber at all, and as a result what my bubble counter reads becomes useless. To me, this means that I'm using more CO2 to lower the pH than I should ideally have to. The cost of wasting CO2 isn't a concern, it's that there is no way for me to assess any functional characteristics of the reactor accurately. If the path of least resistance leads to my CO2 tank instead of through the chamber and out the effluent output, then my bubble counter could indicate that I'm flowing 60 bpm while only 15 bpm are actually making it into the reactor to lower the pH.

[Northern Reef]

Andrew--What makes you think the bubble counter is not accurate? Personally, I think you are making too much of the fact that there is some saltwater getting into the bubble counter. If you have the psi set at 18, that should far exceed what the pressure on the other side of the system (feed pump, return pump, etc) should be. Do you ever shut your system down? That's probably when it backs up.

The bottom line, though, is what problems are you having? Is the reactor not outputting the proper effulent? I don't see a reference to that in this thread, maybe I missed it from another one?

[OrionN]

Canadian,
When you first start the Ca reactor, the pressure in the chamber will increase and pushes water into the CO2 line and reflux into your counter. This also will happen when your CO2 running out. I put in a fairly large reservoir just right after the CO2 tank. The air go into this chamber on top and out on the bottom. In the event of CO2 pressure decreases due to CO2 running out, I hope the reservoir will hold enough water so that I have time to detect this and refill the CO2 tank. This keep salt water from backing into my needle valve and CO2 regulator. Of course the larger the chamber, the safer it is for your regulator.
My first Ca reactor was a K2R which have a check valve This never work because the check valve just fail after one time due to salt buildup.
I though about this also when I set-up my Ca reactor. Put a chamber and use long,long airline is my solution. I hope this will work. I have a 20 lbs CO2 tank and it have not run out yet so I don't know if what I setup is enough to save my regulator or not.

[Frisco]

I'd assume it's changing just because you're using a solenoid that's turning on and off all the time. If that's the case, the pressure in the line is going to change and the remaining gas is either going to expand or contract. If so, just try leaving the solenoid open and see if it still fluctuates... (Am I missing something?)

I'd definitely modify the reactor to mix the inlet water with the CO2 and then inject this mixture into the pump. The way it's setup now (as long as I really understand what you mean) you've got a big bubble of CO2 at the top of the reactor; some of it gets dissolved into the water to react and some of it (probably) bleeds out of the effluent line. That's not good in my book - forcing it through the pump is a much better approach. HTH

[Canadian]

The CO2 doesn't just bleed into the top of the reactor. There is a line that "injects" it into the middle of the media. I don't use a solenoid either.

Larry, the reason this is bothering me is because I am getting to the point where I have to push in excess of 45bpm and a slow drip of effluent, and I'm still only getting my pH down to about 7.2 at the lowest. There aren't any CO2 leaks either. This leads me to believe that all of the CO2 isn't actually being injected into the chamber.

I've unhooked the reactor now and I'm going to clean it out and make sure that I'm getting good flow from the recirculation pump through the media.

[OrionN]

Andrew,
I don't owned a PM reactor. However, I do know how a usual reactor works. The CO2 in tank must go through the pump first to force it to dissolved in the water in order for the reactor to be efficient at disolving the media.
Looking at the picture you posted. I would put the CO2 in-put at the blue line near the intake of the pump while use the current CO2 in-take point to add tank water. The other way to do this is to place a T and use one point to injected both water and CO2 at the blue line(best) and just caped the current current CO2 injection point.
I agree with FRISCO that CO2 in your reactor as is do not mix well with water and just escaped via the out-put line. This is why you cannot get the pH of your Ca reactor down to below 7.2. This should be easy to fix with minor modification of where the water and the CO2 in-take are.
Good luck.

[Northern Reef]

Larry, the reason this is bothering me is because I am getting to the point where I have to push in excess of 45bpm and a slow drip of effluent, and I'm still only getting my pH down to about 7.2 at the lowest. There aren't any CO2 leaks either.

Ah yes, well then that is reason for concern. I defer to the others who seem to have good suggestions for the input of CO2. :) BTW, what kind of media are you using?

[Canadian]

Problem solved. Thanks for all of your input guys.

Turns out there was a pin-hole sized leak in my bubble counter. When I took the reactor apart I leak tested everything and found the air leak. I used some Weld-on and sealed it back up. I hadn't detected the leak in the past because it was on the back side of the bubble counter and I couldn't really reach it to paint it with some soap.

So the problem seems to be solved.

Larry, I'm using CaribSea ARM. When I was using it in the past, I found that it actually dissolves at around pH 6.9. But I guess that's a moot point now anyway :)

Once again, thanks for the help. In the end, it was my own stupidity that was causing the problem.