Building a 200 gallon Angelfish tank

[216@aqua]

Hello,

I am looking at buying a 200 plus size tank. This tank will be a FO that will house mainly angelfish. I am positing the thread because I want to use top of the line equipment, and I want to do it right the first time. I have been in this hobby for years, and believe I am now ready to buy a bigger tank. I am looking at mimicing a tank designed by a guy named Wayne Shang. He has a FO angelfish tank which from the slides I think is gorgeous. His website is www.underseadiscovery.com if you want to see what I am trying to do.

I am in the planning phase now and was wondering if anyone can offer me any top brand names for the equipment I will be using. In addition, should I mimic the set up that Wayne Shang has? Or go a different route?

Thanks

[Leopardshark]

In order to handle all the waste I would go with the biggest aerofoamer you could fit into the stand, lots of live rock and probably VHO´s with icecap ballast. A wavemaster pro in order to create nice currents in the tank.
A big iwaki to handle the aerofoamer and also a ozonizer.
A big refugium with tons of caulerpa to remove nutrients.
JMHO
Marco

[FragGuy]

216@aqua,

I concur with LeopardShark. You need to address the waste potential in a large fish system and good skimming and a large algae tub is a good way to go about it. I also do water changes to keep things in order. I recycle a large amount of algae on a daily basis back into food and the fish love fresh cut coulerpa. My goal has been to try and approach a natural systems(as best as we can in a small glass box.)
I have mixed things up a bit with regards to organisms. I have been able to mix angels and certain corals for over 7 years and have had great success doing so. With some of the centropyge (Pygmy, Flames) I have been able to mix both hard(including fleshy LPS) and soft corals. With large angels I have restricted it to SPS corals with very few exceptions ( I had a large frogspawn for many years before I sold it without any problems, also had a bubble coral that I kept for over 9 years without problems and for some reason my Rhodactis mushrooms have been spared although no other mushrooms can coexist with my angels.) Don’t get me wrong I am not guaranteeing that you may not witness a nip here and there what I am saying is that these incidents have been very limited and caused no harm to the corals. Due to the growth rate of my corals the occasional tip nipping that I have witnessed goes away in about a day or two and I can certainly live with that when I look at the overall effect of a reef tank mixed with angels. I have also had some of my angels spawn in this system (Flame, Bicolors and pair of Regals.) Look in my web site for short movies of these. I do stress that you be responsible when attempting to mix organisms that are not typically suggested together. Have a backup plan to safely house the animal if need be. Sorry for the lengthy response. I hope it helps.

You can visit my site for more info and pics:
http://minireef.esmartweb.com

Good luck.

[anthem]

Wayne has a very unique tank. Wayne also has raised many of these together from small sizes. If you're going to even think of trying to do what he's done, you'd best be ready to remove at any sign of aggression and start with very small juvenile specimens. The last time I saw his setup, I remember he had most of his angels for 5+ years. I have five angels in my tank which is much larger than that and since they've gotten larger, there is still some aggression there.

In other words, be very careful as things can and do change. It's also not advisable to do, especially in a tank as small as a 200.

[216@aqua]

Thanks to Anthem, FragGuy, and Leopard Shark. I almost purchased a 200 gallon tank, but pulled out because I do not want to rush anything! I will look into your recommendations for my FO angelfish tank. I know what a ozonizer is, but have never done any research into them. What I remember about them is that they are not necessary. Maybe you disagree. But as I said I will look into them.

Anthem since you have seen the FO system that I am trying to mimic I was wondering if you could explain his unique set up and design a little bit more. I have been trying to find someone to ask because having his angels for 5+ years and being able to keep all of those in the same tank is impressive. I want to do this right the first time which I know is not always possible, but everybody is helping. Thanks again

David

[anthem]

Honestly, if you're asking the particular question, you really shouldn't be trying to do this. You really need to know the charactertistics of the angel species that you're trying to do, what their interactions are, and have experience with angels in general. And every single specimen of angelfish are all different (even within species). Whatever insight we give you isn't going to mean squat. You can chalk up his scenario to knowledge, setup, trying multiple angels, trying multiple specimens within angels, and a lot of luck.

Let me put it this way, if you were to retain Wayne to consult/build/setup a tank exactly as his with the same stocking specimens in your house, he wouldn't be able to do it. Not without a lot of different specimens to try and going 5+ years of raising them to figure out if they work/don't work. It's the process with which he went, and there isn't a roadmap - every road is different with each individual species.

His particular setup is nothing new or different that most others. I don't remember him skimping on anything, but its not exactly oversized for his tank. His tank is not much different than most other high-end systems. But once the tank is setup, it isn't the equipment here, its the expertise, time, care and luck that has kept these angels alive for the amount of time.

BTW, he doesn't have the rarest angels in there, but I do believe he has some rarer angels. I would guess that you're looking at about $2500-$3000 to acquire the specimens as juveniles with a value of $5-7kK as specimens as adults(which you wouldn't be able to do as they definitely won't work together). Don't forget he's probably tried numerous other combinations that hasn't worked with same or other species.

All in all, I suggest you start slowly and get lots of expertise with these particular species. Not from reading, but from doing - as each species/individual is different. All it takes is one single misbehaving angel to wreak havoc on the tank (and every single one of those listed is capable of that). Like I said before, if you don't have an idea/clue/$$$$$ about this, you probably shouldn't try it. (and yes, that is 5 digits on the dollar signs)

[Jan]

anthem,

Wow! You saw his tank!!!
It seems that not many peoples have the opportunity to see this fish tank in person.
Tell us more.

:eek1:

[anthem]

No, I've never seen his tank, but have met him in his travels.

[216@aqua]

Anthem,

Thanks for the reply I have a bit of experience with these fish, but nothing like what he has done. So what you are saying is that he has actually acquired a species, and if it has not worked out well he removed the specimen and bought another of the same kind. So having almost 16 different species in the tank, technically he could have removed almost every one of them. Also I am well aware of the cost of these fish, but you had said earlier that it will be required that all of these fish are young when stocking the tank. Now does this mean that I stock the tank within the first year or sooner?

Thanks you have given me a good perspective,

David

[anthem]

Like I said, if you're asking about the captive care of keeping multiple angels in a small tank, your chance of success is bordering on close to zero. . . ..

I highly suggest that you get the largest tank you can afford, and slowly acquire a few species and raise them to adults first (several years). From there, if you want to look at adding other potential tankmates, to then pursue adding and seeing what the tank reactions are. It's a hit and miss proposition with nothing being set in anything resembling stone.

Honestly, from what you're asking and what stage you're in, you shouldn't even be thinking about pursuing this type of tank.

[Frisco]

I actually agree with Anthem, and IMO a 200 is not nearly large enough to house a bunch of large fish like you are describing. Perhaps you should also consider just contacting Wayne directly and trying to get his feedback; he's going to have alot better perspective on the challenges he ran into with that tank than any of us are. JMO

[216@aqua]

Frisco and Anthem,

I would contact him but I keep running into dead ends.

Thanks,
David

[FragGuy]

Dave,

The angels that I have introduced have all been adult fish usually over five inches for the large species angels. Though not large adults if you compare this size with their potential adult size I consider them large angels if they are over 4 or 5 inches and they have achieved full adult color. I did not replace or loose any fish during these introductions. My system is 350 gallons, that’s 150 more gallons than what you are attempting, which I believe may be very significant. I also have lots of caves (over 400 pounds of live rock Pacific and Caribbean) for hiding.

Based on the temperament that I have observed in my individual fish I would probably not do this in the same order if I where to start over. I introduced my angels in the following order Blue face, pair of Flames, Majestic, Bicolor male, Bicolor Female, Emperator, Regal Female, Blue Speckled(Similar to Gray Puma), Regal Male, Scribbled.

I did not have to intervene to separate the fish and abandon any of the attempts. I did have to intervene with the bicolors but ultimately succeeded, but this was an attempt to pair up same species fish and the aggression came from the male already in the tank. I had two goals that I was attempting; one was to mix various large and small species of angels and two; was to mix same species of angels and pair them off. I have succeed in both cases. As stated previously I did have to intervene to separate the female bicolor a few times before the male decided to accept her.

The way that I have gone about introducing these fish has been to place them in a large plastic bag suspended in the same tank with the other fish, hopefully this helps them to begin to get used to the new comer. Please provide adequate water flow in and out of the bag by slicing holes. Typically I do this for about a week or two. Can’t give you a rule of thumb I just kind of go by instinct and behavior of the fish in the tank before attempting to release the new fish. There will be initial aggression which may last up to a couple of day (Tail slapping and chasing). This will even come from unrelated species such as tangs. The chasing should not be to the point where it is relentless and the new fish has no place to hide. If this happens then you will have to get him out soon.

I really want to stress that you be responsible and plan ahead for this possibility. Either have another system that you can house the fish safely or make a deal with your LFS or buddy to take the fish if it comes to this. Make sure you introduce the fish early on the weekend so that you can watch the fish for a couple of days if you can be around.

Maybe I have been lucky, maybe the size of my tank, the rock work, the individual fishes personalities, the sex of the fish, the other fish in the system, my method of placing them in a bag for a time period, heavy feedings. Maybe one or all of these factors have been responsible for my results, can’t really say for sure. I am merely giving you the facts of how I managed to do this. One thing is for certain these fish have been in my system for over seven years and they feed side by side with each other with at most a grunt towards one another (feeding time is the peak of their aggression).

You may want to start small(Centropyge group). Hope this helps with your decision. I am including a picture on the bag and hang method.

[216@aqua]

FragGuy,

Thanks for your input it really helps me out a lot on my quest for research. I already have a few of the dwarf species in my tank, but I would like to house some of the similar fish as yours. I have two questions:

Is the plastic crate in the bag there to hold it open?

If you are willing would you please post some more pictures of your tank that show the rock structures? I looked at your website
and want to see more :)


Dave

[crystalball]

I have a 250 that resembles more of a 300 with the other light tank on top of it to stabilize my ph...first off it is noisy...be prepared! I went from 100gal quiet to 300gal with a sump that holds an aditional 500 gal, this sounds like a manufaturing plant!...I did place the sump in tha garage, running 6 pool hoses inthe walls, through the floors....ect... it was expencive and my electicity bill alone for the tank is 350.00 a month. when someone said "larger" it usally means they have a room in the garage that they do not enjoy their tank, or have never set a tank up of this size....ohh and dont mistake a LFS tank, the noise level is unnoticable due to all the other noise in the store! and pricing is at wholesale! if you do do this get a resale licence, and buy direct....but it will never be cheap!

[FragGuy]

Dave,

The egg crate is exactly for that purpose, to hold the bag open so that it does not collapse.

I do have more pictures I don't know if I have any where you can see the inside of caves. I will try to send you some more.

What you want to do is, create as much hollow space(caves) under the reef structure. They should be as far apart from each other as practical so that the fish can stay away from each other as much as possible. The more choices the fish have the better.