If your tank is UNDER 6 months old please read this.

[SeanT]

Now I know I am not one to preach when the subject is about rushing into stocking your tank.

When I started I was given some horrible advice and followed it blindly as if it were gospel. I lost a lot of fish.

Over the past month or so I am reading a lot of posts in forums about Anemones and Clams and other hard to keep animals.

And these posts are coming from reefers whose tanks are UNDER 2 months in age let alone 6.

Many animals such as Clams and Anemones and others are VERY DIFFICULT to keep in extremley established, mature and stable tanks let alone the constantly changing chemical soup of a new tank.

I appeal to you to NOT try to keep these animals until you have researched, searched and asked a TON of questions about their diet, lighting requirement, flow requirements, water requirements.

And then and only then...wait.

Wait until you have met all of these requirements with hardware.
Then test your water and make sure your water's parameters are where they need to be.

Then...wait.

Keep testing. If your waters parameters DO NOT fluctuate in regards to ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate for several CONTINUOUS months, then and ONLY then is your tank POSSIBLY ready.

A 6 week old tank is not stable.

And as much as I feel the pain in your wallet for losing what you paid for, I feel it more for the needless death of an animal due to poor preparation.

I know we are Americans and we all have the fast food mentality of "I want it NOW!!!"
That's too bad. You CAN'T have it NOW and expect it to live.

Trust me, the Anemones and Clams will always be there to buy. Everytime you buy one and kill it that is one more Ripped from the Reef.[b]" (My new COPYRIGHTED TERM-*Eyeing Larry suspiciously*)

So please just don't do it. Come here and start a thread if you are unsure.
Something like "Is my tank ready for a..."
And start this thread [b]BEFORE you have clicked that SUBMIT ORDER button. Please.

There will ALWAYS be someone here to answer your questions openly and honestly.

[c_lou]

Amen, Brother!

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

:fish1: :fish1: :fish1:


Also if I could add to that. The same goes for animals that should not be put into a tank ever.

IMO a Goinopora is one of these.

I know some have gotten them to live but those that do most likely have years and years of experience and a very well established tank.

Just dropping 2 pennies

C_Lou

[minfinger]

I agree with Sean. It takes time for any tank to develop into a calm environment and even then it's still not calm, every little thing makes the whole tank react badly. Everyone should research as much as possible. Unfortunatly I lost a few things in the beginning, but it's a live and learn thing. I wish it had not have happened, but it did.

To this date, my tank is 5 months old. I often wish I could put in a nice looking clam, but I don't think I'll ever put one in this tank. I'll never have an anemone either. My tank is too stocked with corals for me to risk that thing moving around the tank until it gets happy. My giant emerald crabs do a fine job of knocking over my corals LOL

Good luck to all.

[minh_han]

The more I've read on RC, the more I've been impressed upon to take time for everything. I have heard of too many stories of good fish and other livestock suffering b/c people haven't taken time to stabilize their tanks. I've just gotten my tank today!!! At this point, I'm putting in LS and LR and that's it. Maybe some macroalgae and some coralline scrapings if I can get some. I saw my LFS selling this anemone in their tank, and it looked pretty pitiful. It's foot was not attached to anything, it was barely waving around, and it seemed to me to be very unhappy. Their other tanks had red algae blooms everywhere. One person in the store told me that one of their SW fish had just kicked the bucket. I was pretty doubtful of the survival statistics of the rest of their stock! Well, we'll see what happens with my tank. Thanks to everyone who posts their mistakes to keep us newbies from making the same ones.

[baseman]

Sean - Good advice. Thankfully that's just about what my LFS told me. My tank (4 months old) SEEMS stable. Ammonia and nitrites 0. Nitrates have never been above 1. No serious algae problems( just the normal new tank stuff).

I will eventually get an anemone for my clowns, but not for at least two more months. I don't have enough light yet and I want to make SURE it's stable. I have added things very slowly to make sure the filtration system can handle the bio-load. It has worked well for me.

When I first added the cleanup crew (snails and hermits) they started stiring up the sand and I had particles of stuff floating everywhere. The manager of the LFS said. "That's normal. For the first couple of months it's going to look like a sewer, but all that stuff floating around is feeding your filter feeders."

[theshad]

I agree with it all.

I am new to the hobby and after almost 2 years of reading books, posts and any and all information I could find.

1 full year after joing the local Marine club and learing what people have done right and what they have done wrong am I at the stage where I "think" I have enough information to actually start filling a tank with saltwater.

I Know that it will be at least another year of looking a sand and Live rock with a very very very few tank inhabitants before I will even concider looking at stocking the tank with anything that even resembles a hard to keep animal.

Clams look great as well as many other of the hard to keep animals but just because you have the money to burn whats the point of putting something in your tank that will only have to be removed shortly there after because it is dead.

One of the biggest things I have learned about this hobby is that the people in this hobby realy care about the health and well being of what they have in their tanks. I have yet to hear and expect I never will hear anyone say that they just flushed a fish like I have heard too often in the freshwater side of things.

Read, Wait, build, Wait, read, Wait and then wait some more. Like with all good things in life it comes to those who wait and do it right.

[grim]

It's often difficult to hear the voice of reason when desire is shouting so loudly. :)

jb

[MalHavoc]

The big problems with new tanks is that a lot of the things that inevitably happen with them don't occur for months. Most tanks go through a few periods of "wow, look how clean it is", then "yuck look at all the algae", and then "I can't keep my alkalinity/calcium/insert parameter here stable" before things become stable. So, even if your tank is a few months old and everything looks fine, be prepared for more problems. There are quite a few reefers on the boards who say that they have never had problems with filling their tank up with difficult livestock, even though it's only been a few months. That's exactly the point - it's only been a few months, and you haven't had the tank set up long enough for the problems to develop.

This is compounded by the fact that for the most part, corals are hardy. Even if the tank is unstable, a coral will look fine for a long time, and you will think that everything is just dandy. Only when you start comparing photos of the coral over a period of many months do you actually see that the specimen is in a gradual decline.

[minfinger]

MalHavoc,

I agree very much with your statements and everyone elses. I just wanted to add something.

When I first started the tank, I added Water and salt. I waited 5 days and added sand. 5 Days later, my LR was in at the LFS. So, I had to drain the tank, backed it out of my bar and put the rock in, pushed it back into the bar and pumped the water back in it. Oh what fun that was! At any rate, I waited and waited and took my water into the LFS and had it tested. For reasons I have yet to understand, my tank cycled in 2 weeks. I have no idea why it went so fast. I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, but it just cycled in 2 weeks. For the longest time I kept hearing 1 month to 2 months. Even then I still waited another week to make sure. Well, I thank God nothing has happened since then, but I still draw a blank face when ever I think about it.

I just wanted to share that because I thought it was odd. 5 months later and everything is still going good. The only exception was my stupid Copper Accident, but that's all taken care off. Now my corals are growing at an amazing rate and I love it!!

Mike

[Bluetangclan]

My tank cycled within two weeks as well. My LFS didnt have a clue why and just said, some cycle faster than others. I jumped into this hobby on an urge. My roomate wanted to go find a rabbit and I wanted a ferrit, we came back with a saltwater tank. That aside we made all the classic mistakes, added fish and stuff way faster than we should have and amazingly enough have only lost 2 fish, a cardinal which I think was already sick and a green chromis from the initial cycle. The rest of my fish are fine. However we have lost massive numbers of inverts, the only shrimp I have had survive(a coral banded) I brought back because he wasnt nice to my sally lightfoot. I recently have gotten something in the water which has incapacitated my crustations except for a couple hermits, but this is another thread and I think it is copper. The biggest most important thing is plan ahead and do research. Once I got into this hobby I started realizing things I did wrong, things I could have done much cheaper and so forth. My new tank which I pick up today (awhile from water, due to the stand only being partially complete) is several months in dedicated research from over a month on lighting alone, still figuring out how to put a sump/refugium together. I know the first fish which will go in, what kind of corals I am getting(for the most part). Research is the key to a successful tank and fuller wallet.

[Janet]

Obviously, you are right, but I am sitting on my hands trying not to add anything to a now-reef tank, even though the FO had aged for years.
Did i miss something? who is Larry, and why are you ogling him suspiciously??
Just curious, as always.:bum: janet

[RIVERROBSKI]

You give good advice and yes clams and enenome are hard to keep. Hopefully mine wont die.My tank is going on 9 mnths.I have a 5" clam and 2 enenomes for about 7 months. I got them when my tank was 2 months old.I guess I am one of the lucky ones.

[Leviathan]

Reminds me of what I say to most friends or people I meet just starting out.


---NOTHING GOOD happens FAST in a reef tank.

[xeon]

The Mandarin Goby (Dragonette) is a fish that catches a lot of peoples eye at first, I know it caught my eye. Fish stores will tell you they will eat prepared foods, when the actual truth is they require a seasoned tank with a good pod population. With that said the requirements to keep one of these is an established tank (30 gal. +?) with a good pod population, little or no competition for pods from potential tank mates and a refugium is a big plus. Othewise they starve to death and have shortened lives as a result.

[yachtboy14]

I have been keeping fish for years and I think that if you have keep a saltwater fish alive for more then one year then you can get by with a 4 month wait but save your self the hard times that may come if you dont wait for 6 months but like I said if you know what you are doing you can get my with 4 months.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by SeanT
Trust me, the Anemones and Clams will always be there to buy. Everytime you buy one and kill it that is one more Ripped from the Reef. " (My new COPYRIGHTED TERM-*Eyeing Larry suspiciously*)




:eek2: :eek1: :eek2:

[figuerres]

Now if we coud find some way to make this information appear in every LFS in front of that person thinking of buying some critter .....

Nice LFS in my area for the most part but they had 2 sea apples ! :mad: and I was talking to a couple who have a 90 aga
who did not know of the toxic gut-goo an apple can discharge...
I saved them some dead fish and stuff later I am sure :eek1:

I told them: sure it's a *VERY* attractive animal... and If I could have a *seperate tank* just for a sea apple I *MIGHT* think about it.... but NO way in a tank where some dumb fish could bother it or a rock could fall on it or some other problem ....


as was said: the problem is you have cash in hand and are looking at some thing you like.... you are so sure you can take care of it..... you just know that you are ready..... you just know they can't be *that hard to keep* .... :(

[RIVERROBSKI]

Just another one trying to rag on a LFS. You know there are good LFS out there.Trying to lead new reefers awya from them will only confuse them.You are saying all info on RC is correct.

[DgenR8]

Not all info here is correct, this is a very diverse community, with members from all around the globe.
Some info offered is wrong, offered innocently, but wrong. Some is just a different way of doing things, some people seem to go out of their way to mislead newbies.
For this reason, I always recommend that people don't act on the first advice they get here, unless it's coming from someone they trust.
When you read threads, and notice people jumping in to correct a certain member time and time again, you realize that is not a person to take advice from.
For the most part, the members of this board are here to learn and share knowledge, noone here benefits financially from the advice they give, you can't say that about your LFS.
Just as MOST people here offer solid advice, I think MOST LFS's are offering advice that will lead you to buy something they have to sell.
That's it for philosophy 101 tonight. :D

[SeanT]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
You are saying all info on RC is correct.
Who wrote that?

[figuerres]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
Just another one trying to rag on a LFS. You know there are good LFS out there.Trying to lead new reefers awya from them will only confuse them.You are saying all info on RC is correct.


:confused:

? if this refers to what I posted you are taking it wrong....

my point was that IMHO all of us are tempted to buy on impulse.
and many new reefers are not helped by LFS staff who are too eager to make a sale and or do not know what they are selling in terms of the long haul.

sure stuff here is not perfect.... but FWIW the info here is about 10 x better than most books I have found in any "Pet shop" book.

[Gizba]

SeanT, Thanks for the advice :)

[imgrtful]

but the lfs says if you use live sand you can start adding tennants in 24 hrs.that is the part that really irrates me.i just got two friends into the hobby and they were listening to the lfs'.i quickly turned them onto rc.now they are reading post after post to gather thier info.i told them any question they should ask,they also may find a question they didnt know they needed to know.we need our lfs,just dont need thier misinformation

[SeanT]

Hey peeps,
I don't mean to be a punk.
But I really didn't intend for this thread to evolve to here.
I was just trying to hopefully help others from making the mistakes I, and many of us, made.
I saw a trrend on the board recently of many reefers buying animals, that normally are recommended for established tanks with more experienced reefers, who are new to the hobby and have young tanks.

[OscarBeast]

Trust me, the Anemones and Clams will always be there to buy. Everytime you buy one and kill it that is one more Ripped from the Reef.

Of course if you are a really mindful and responsible hobbyist, you will be buying captive raised animals when your tank is ready, not wild.

[RuTHlezz1]

I have never had any trouble keeping Anemones in my tank after it reached 3 months old, I have only had one 0f three die and that was because I moved and my friend dropped it on the floor.

[AlienAnchovies]

ok, but what if you transfered all the stuff you had into a new tank of similar size?

[RIVERROBSKI]

I have never had problems either.I have had them since my tank was 2 months old.Fancy that

[NorthCoast]

There are many people that claim to have very successful new tanks. I am lucky to be in that group. In regard to my current 120 gallon tank I have never found any ammonia or nitrite - and it was tested from day 1. My Honduras Live Rock was cured at a LFS for weeks under the same 400w MH I am using at home. The rock was out of the water 60min. at the most. I have been able to keep a wide variety of corals.

But, I really don't think the tank was mature until about 2 years of age. I think that if you have knoweledge, practice good husbandry habits, are consistant and patient, and are following sound stocking plan then go ahead and begin to add your inhabitants. I think that the sound stocking plan wouldn't call for certain corals in the first 6 months or even a year.

The problems often occurs when the plan goes out the door because patients and consistancy goes out the door. The leaves knowledge without anything to govern it - that can be dangerous. Remember all the research, all those text books, the on-line articles and that popular web forum? Yes. All the information was there before the tank was purchased. So when you see those clams or anemones in the LFS you know what they need. You might even know more than the person selling it to you. Confident? Yes, I'll take one of each.

If you are lucky everything live for a long time. If you are not so lucky then every thing dies slowly. And if you are very luckly everything dies quickly and you learn from your mistakes and will not do it again.

Why place your hard earned money against the odds that something will live or die? Create a plan and implement it. Odds are that you will be more successful and happy in the long run.

Later,
NC

[Johnnyfishkiller]

It does depend on the species of anenome you're talking about. I bought a condy at petco before I knew better. My tank was 2 months old. It got so big that it was interfering with corals in the tank. I also got an anenome with some LR that I bought. I've seen them sold as flower anenomes but I don't know the real name. It too got so big that it was stinging my pagoda coral. I moved them both to my daughters FOWLR tank that is 2 months old where they are doing fine. The reduction of light will eventually take it's toll, but both are fine for now.

My point is that if you really want an anenome early in your tank's life, pick a hardy variety. Apstasia lives through anything but a Kalk bath, there are others that are almost as hardy. Just don't expect your clowns to like these hardy ones. They only seem to like the ones that die.

[Mikey Kliff]

a kalk bath eh? that takes care of them things...... hmm interesting...... ive heard certain shrimp eat them...... and you cant kill them with a seringe with calcium.....

[Johnnyfishkiller]

If you mix up Kalkwasser powder into a fairly thick slurry and use a syringe to inject them, it's a sure kill. You can also shoot a little right at the mouth, and they will actually eat it and die most of the time.

[traip93]

Hey!!! what area all you "experts" doing in the "new to the hobby" forum????!!! Get your a$$es back to the "Reef" Forum....Let us newbie coral killers live in happiness over here, you guys are clogging up our message boards......:D :D :D , I'm just kidding of course.....

Good thread SeanT, I'm a newbie myself....my tank is 6-7 months old and I have yet to add a BTA or coral (other than the hitchhickers I have on my TB LR)....I've avoided the urge to get these due to the help here on RC. It is frustrating though because I too see people asking questions about keeping stuff I eventually want, then I look at there tank specs and they are 2-3 4 monthes old....or better yet, I'll see pics of fully stocked beautiful reef tanks that are only 2 mothes old. The subject of the threads usually read "PICS OF MY 2month old reef"....:confused: , i don't get it, but thanks for the thread SeanT......

[Glenn UK]

Hi ya all from across the pond.

Just to reinforce your comments I have had my tank set up for aropund 6 months or so, with water circulating and being heated etc.

I added my first critters the weekend before last and then again some more this weekend.

Most of my readings have stayed withina cceptalbe limits or better and now Im gonna sit and wait for a few months before adding anything else.

Better to be safe than sorry

Glenn

[RIVERROBSKI]

You have to remeber,each tank is different.I started adding corals after about 2 months.I was one of the lucky ones who got some good LR.It was about 8 years old.It speeded up my cycle about 10 times.If you look at my LR you will see all the coraline on it.It is so Preeeeety.That I feel is a big part of cycling a tank.I am at a poiunt were I am real picking and finding real exotic things.I will even take some thingsout if I find them.So if you have a good cycle you dont have to wait 6 months.Check it out


www.robreneasreef.com

[Nagel]

Originally posted by DgenR8
Just as MOST people here offer solid advice, I think MOST LFS's are offering advice that will lead you to buy something they have to sell.

hey now, don't group all LFS's in that bracket! Sure, the one I work at, the managers would love the employees to share in that philosophy, but alas, most of us are hobbiests. While we are powerless to stop him from ordering dendronepthea and gonipora, I certainly let the customers know the difficulty in keeping these critters. I also dissuade purchases that are not in the interest of the animal (I ask about their setup to ascertain whether or not they are "ready" for the animal). It also helps that we make no commission, so there's no enticement for us to suggestive sell, or to sell something they don't need / can't keep alive.

I gotta say, I can't even BEGIN to tell you how many times I've said this to a customer:

"Ok, now listen to me. I know this is wierd coming from an employee, most stores are just out to make a profit, and give advice sometimes swayed towards making a sale. If you don't believe me, check out ReefCentral (I usually give em a store business card with the site address on the back). The people there don't stand to make any money on giving you advice, they are telling you what worked for them, and they do it out of the kindness of their hearts. Research before you buy it, and you will be happier in the long run"

Now, you would think that this kind of mentality would make the store lose money, and do poorly in the long run. Hmmm. The reverse seems to be happening. People are bringing friends in with them when they return, lots of people ask for me by name, and I sell a TON of corals to people who have the setups to maintain them. It'd be nice to make a commission, but hey, its all good. I support my hobby, support and educate my fellow hobbiests and have a clear conscience that I am not raping the reefs. Granted, I usually can't outright deny to sell something, I try to dissuade them, but if they REALLY want it, they will buy it. I think the LFS's that sell via deception make less then us because the repeat business that we get from customers who trust our judgment, experience and advice. It works out both ways....

As for the first post, definately true. Some can be lucky, some DO get cycled rock, but just cause your aquarium cycled in 2 weeks doesn't mean that YOU know how to properly maintain it. Salinity can and DOES shift, and certain critters are extremely sensitive to salinity shifts, and could DIE from them. Calcium and Alkalinity can be tricky to get stable at first, sometimes taking months to stabilize. Clams and SPS corals should not be kept in a young reef just for this reason. You must remember, the lucky ones usually got GOOD rock from an older systemm and minimized their cycle. MOST new setups use rock from the LFS, and will NEED to cycle...

Patience is a must, and those who have it, will experience success with their reefs. Those who do not, run the gauntlet of possibly being "one of the lucky ones" or having a disaster in their living room and an empty wallet. Wouldn't you rather have a better chance? If waiting an extra 6 months practically guaranteed that you would have a more stable system, isn't that worth it? I think it is.........

just my .o2

[DgenR8]

You are right Nagel, Too often I get caught up and forget to mention that there are good LFS's out there, you just gotta look for them.
Just for the record, I believe in supporting a good LFS if you find one. They are a necessary part of this game we play, as sometimes you need something NOW, and M/O is not an option. Not to mention that I do not like to mail order livestock.

[websiteworld.com]

Are you telling us that you did not honestly know you were not supposed to overload the tank, or were you just impatient and thought it was a myth like most people?

[websiteworld.com]

One last note, a fish tank can be easily started in 4 weeks using FRITZ Zyme live nitryfying bacteria. Fritz chemical company is awesome and has some excellent products.

http://www.coralseaaquariums.com/fritz_supplements.htm

[figuerres]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
One last note, a fish tank can be easily started in 4 weeks using FRITZ Zyme live nitryfying bacteria. Fritz chemical company is awesome and has some excellent products.

http://www.coralseaaquariums.com/fritz_supplements.htm

do you know how many kinds of "super water to speed up your tank" there are out there?

do you think they work that well?

:rolleyes:

what realy works is the "4 weeks" of running the tank my friend. that and having the right water params (temp, sg, ph etc...)

and adding any level of organic mater on day one.

thats why you see the "shrimp method" a lot here, toss one dead small "cocktail" shrimp into the tank for a few days.... then take it out ...

or add sand and or rocks form a working reef....


at 4 weeks if you add one small fish and nothing else 90% of the time it will be ok.... leave it for a week and the tank will have picked up more bacteria and algea and other "stuff" from the fish waste.

it's the 4 weeks that does most of the work... not the bottle of water you paid like a buck per oz for....
;)

[websiteworld.com]

Fritz Zyme will cycle a tank in 7 days. My parents owned a very large LFS when I was growing up and we used it to cycle many tanks. (Actually a total of 6 retail locations)

Fritz Zyme is liquid, not freeze dried, it has also been up in the space shuttle as have other Fritz Chemical Products.

[RIVERROBSKI]

I agree with figuerres.Why would you want to take a chance and cycle a tank in 7 days.First of all I DONT THINK SO.Why use something taht is not natural.When you are starting a reef you invest alot of money,why take that chance in not doing it rioght.Oh yeh,maybe thats why the shuttle came down

[DgenR8]

There are many "sanke oils" on the market that promise to beat Mother Nature at her own game. I do not believe in any of them.
Good things come to those who wait, and NOTHING GOOD happens fast in a Reef Tank!
Accept the fact that this is a waiting game, trying to rush it will almost always end bad.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
Oh yeh,maybe thats why the shuttle came down

A biological experiment has nothing to do with an aerospace disaster.

Sounds like you are a sceptic but we used Fritz Zyme liquid to start hundreds of tanks in the stores not to mention all the home users. It works period , proof was in the water testing. Now the freeze dried stuff is crap. The fritz stuff has the nitrifying bacteria and a liquid animated state which gives you a much higher percentage of living bacteria.


7 days, your tank is cycled.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by DgenR8
Good things come to those who wait, and NOTHING GOOD happens fast in a Reef Tank!


With all due respect, your are not speaking scientifically, or from experience. You are skeptical and your assumptions are incorrect. I'm sure that at one time they believed that steel could not be heated any faster until a now very rich family discovered by blowing air into the process, it heated much faster!

There are many ways to speed up biological processes in all different realms of science and biology, one is by adding the live nitrifying bacteria in an appropriately preserved form. FREEZE dried is not a good way to preserve.

[RIVERROBSKI]

DgenR8,hey for once we agree on something

[DgenR8]

I just find it very hard to accept that a plastic bottle full of liquid bacteria that sits on numerous warehouse and distributor shelves before sitting in your LFS could possibly have anything alive in it by the time you get it into your tank. Think about it, how many months does it sit, and how many temperature extremes does it go through before you get it?
You're right, Website world, I am not talking from personal experience with Fritz zyme, I tried "cycle" once, which I believe to be the same thing, water in a plastic bottle, nothing more.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
DgenR8,hey for once we agree on something

Wow you folks must be very unlucky if you tried Fritz Zyme and your tank did not cycle in a week!

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by DgenR8
How many months does it sit, and how many temperature extremes does it go through before you get it?


You are correct, it's only good for 6 months and the bottles are dated, and Fritz products are not distributed the same as other products.

The key as I said before is the method the bacteria is preserved. It is sort of a suspended animation method, and I said before NASA has taken it up on a shuttle mission to study.

It works, and if your tank is out of wack, you can use it too.

By the Way, the Epcot Center in Orlando used the Fritz Zyme too. :-)

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
DgenR8,hey for once we agree on something

LOL, it doesn't seem to happen that often, Rob, but this isn't the first time. :D

[websiteworld.com]

I've not been in the mainstream for quite sometime, so I'm not up to date on some of the new stuff, but growing up in the pet business until 1990, and as well as wholesale distributor allowed me to learn quite a bit. I was born in Florida, and my Dad judge international fish competition in Miami, and did stuff with Jack Whatley in the 70's.

Don't discount everything I say, I know a little and have spoken to many of the big kahunas in the pet industries.

Other than this product, I don't really feel that strongly about many others.

I hope to offer some good opinions on things I am certain about and I am anxious to "catch up" on recent stuff I've missed out on. As with many hobbies interest sometimes comes and goes. After getting fish wholesale for my entire life, it is sometime hard to stomache paying 1/2 of retail. I sometime will still get together with some other local folks and pick up my fish at the airport just like in the old days except now we have 1-2 boxes instead of 20-30!

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com

Don't discount everything I say, I know a little and have spoken to many of the big kahunas in the pet industries.

Other than this product, I don't really feel that strongly about many others.


There are only a very few people here that I disagree with, just because it was them that posted. Things change fast in this hobby, and your opinions are more than welcome here, that's what makes this board as great as it is, differing opinions, and exchange of knowledge.
Chances are that you'll never convince me that there is any product that does what "Cycle" of "Fritz Zyme" claim to do, but that doesn't make me right, it just makes me a skeptic.
I honestly believe that good things don't happen fast in a reef tank, and only bad things happen fast in a Reef Tank.
You very well might be on to something, but I won't recommend something I'm unsure of to a newbie here. The purpose of this forum is not to experiment with new stuff, but to pass along tried and true methods that work for many people, to get the newbie started off on the right foot.
Don't hesitate to voice your opinion, the worst thing that can happen is we don't agree. That doesn't make either of us wrong, I certainly don't know it all! :D

[websiteworld.com]

Thanks! Btw Fritz Zyme has been around for years, as I said Epcot used it when they built the Aquarium. It's not a new discovery. hehe. Fritz is not always available in all parts of the country because of it's distribution requirements.

[figuerres]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
You are correct, it's only good for 6 months and the bottles are dated, and Fritz products are not distributed the same as other products.

The key as I said before is the method the bacteria is preserved. It is sort of a suspended animation method, and I said before NASA has taken it up on a shuttle mission to study.

It works, and if your tank is out of wack, you can use it too.

By the Way, the Epcot Center in Orlando used the Fritz Zyme too. :-)



well I am not sure what you mean about :
Originally posted by websiteworld.com
and I said before NASA has taken it up on a shuttle mission to study. [/i]

so please tell us all more:
which mission?
what was the experiment?
who sponsered / paid for it?
what are the results?
what "Well Known" journal has published the results?


as you are actively promoting this then I would expect you to have this basic data.

also can you prove that you are not beeing compensated by the "Fritz" manufaturing company?

Sorry Dude but you sound like a "con man" if you're for real then write up an article for feefkeeping.com and have Dr. Ron review your facts.... then we will know.
:D

[websiteworld.com]

Just the fact that you folks have never heard of Fritz Chemical Company or liquid nitrifying bacteria is alarming.

I'm not a con man, I own a web site design company and grew up in the pet industry.

Usually con people are trying to make money aren't they? DER!

[websiteworld.com]

By the way for those willing to try something new, rather than just say it doesn't work here is the URL for the manufacturer http://www.fritzpet.com/


I guess your ancestors thought the world was flat too and that a man would never go to the moon. ;-)

[websiteworld.com]

By the way for the record, I know more about the pet industry than anyone here including the Doc. I've met people that you've only read about, or read books they wrote. ;-)

Take a look at the list of places that use Fritz Zyme http://www.fritzpet.com/whos_usingts.htm and eat crow.

And yes, NASA did experiments on it which I think is much cooler than your doc doing. hehe

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or your doc to cycle tanks in 5 days. My only experiments were starting brand new retail operations in a week with a moderate load of fish and no problems.

[RIVERROBSKI]

getting tired of the 5 day cycle.First it was 7 now its 5.Good luck to all who get a 5 day cycle.

[figuerres]

Ok some last words and then no more from me here:

1) just did a google and found many (30-50) links to places selling this stuff for about $5.00 per oz.

2) no results of the google led me to any test results.

3) Mr. "Websiteworld" take the chalenge: if you belive then publish facts. we can go round and round for ever .... facts please.

4) do you have any idea how many odd claims folks who have been on this board have heard? how many kinds of "Bottled bacteria" brands we have seen / read about? I personaly have seen 2 others not counting the one you refer to.


and just for the heck of it.... this is no relation to your honesty... but may show some folks how crazy it can be:

a while back I saw some messages about a "Wonder water" that came from monkey guts :eek1:

and if you read the posts the author claimed that it was safe but you should not put your hands in the tank cause his words "the goodness of it will be drawn to the baddness of your skin and may create a rash" WHAT! :eek:

needless to say if it realy was from a live moneky's digestive track and you were "culturing" it in a warm salt bath (you tank) then you might well be infecting yourself ala e. colli :eek1: :eek2: :eek:

I did see many claims of them beeing in business for over 20 years.... so if the stuff they use is so great then why do we not all use it already?

do you have a DSB?

do you know any basic marine biology?

do you have any backgound aside from working in a pet store?

Nuff. Said.

[RIVERROBSKI]

for someone who is talking smacl I see no proof

[websiteworld.com]

Obviously you can't read.

Take a look at the list of places that use Fritz Zyme http://www.fritzpet.com/whos_usingts.htm and eat crow.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by figuerres
Ok some last words and then no more from me here:

do you have any backgound aside from working in a pet store?

Nuff. Said.
My parents owed a chain of stores as well as distributorships. As I said before, it does not take a rocket scientist to pour nitrifying bacteria into a fish tank and determine the tank is cycled after a week or am I mistaken?

Wouldn't it be safe to assume that if the water tests are okay, and your fish are not floating that the tank was cycled, or do I need to waste 80,000 in schooling to figure that out?

I think the marine biologists are working at all the places about and actually USING their college degree unlike many.

[RIVERROBSKI]

LFS have to fake cycling in 5 days this is how they make there money.So tellus know is mommy and daddy still in the fissh buisness

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
LFS have to fake cycling in 5 days this is how they make there money.So tellus know is mommy and daddy still in the fissh buisness

I guess all those major aquariums are faking it too. You only show your ingorance just like the people that thought the world was flat. You have never tried the product, you don't have a clue. Go educate yourself.

No my parents retired after 25 years and moved into bigger and better things like myself. ;-)

[RIVERROBSKI]

hey I have 5 acres near area 51 for 10.00 an acre,you want to buy it.The point you cant believe everything you read.Were is your profile,tank experience.No proof.Your like my x wife.Always thinking you know everything.No more said.I need not to waste anymore time.Oh yeh T birds suck

[websiteworld.com]

You are obviously not interested in learning.

[DgenR8]

This has nothing to do with an interst or disinterest in learning. You have to be able to understand that the claims you're making are difficult to accept with nothing to go on other than YOU say it's so.
I'll keep an open mind, I'd like to see you accept figuerres' challenge,
"
Sorry Dude but you sound like a "con man" if you're for real then write up an article for feefkeeping.com"
I'm not looking for something worthy of publishing, but if you've got it in you to produce something of that calibur, more power to 'ya.
The fact is, we all cycled our tanks for at least WEEKS, and have read stories about such miracle products before, it's not easy to accept something that seems so obviously wrong, based on personal experience, and articles written by those we trust.
Give me some compelling reason to accept your rather off the wall claims instead of being smug and telling us to "eat crow"
That attitude will get you nowhere.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by DgenR8
You have to be able to understand that the claims you're making are difficult to accept with nothing to go on other than YOU say it's so.


As I said before, it was difficult for people to accept the world was round, people could not believe every household would have a TV when it first came out, but that do.

Imagine seting up 4 brand new retail LFS using Fritz Zyme and knowing it works and listing to some sceptic who doesn't have a clue saying he don't believe it. LOL Why don't you call one of the Aquariums in the United States, including The Living Seas at Epcot and ask them if they thing adding live nitrifying bacteria to the tank will speed up the cycle?

The fact that you don't believe adding an properly stored live nitrifying batericia to a biological setting speeds up the nitrogen cycle is alarming. Sometimes I wonder how anyone keeps any fish alive when they believe you have to have to be a marine biologist to understand the nitrogen cycle and how ammonia is broken down. What do you thing the aquariums do if the levels get out of hand? Do they drain 5-10 percent of the tank and refill it?

You only need to be a marine biologist or have a Doctorite degree if you want to DEVELOP a product that speeds up the process. Basic class in biology should give you enough intelligence to understand the process. I understood it when I was 10 years old.

Lasty, some of the most ignorant people I have ever met are proud owners of PHd's. In case you don't know, our eductational system is ranked one of the lowest in the world, so I don't think I would be completely dependent on that as a means of credibility.

[ginntonic74]

I just read "some of the people who us this" . One question, It says that this product has to be refridgerated, Does the company ship this stuff on a cooler truck . If not then i would suspect that this stuff comes to the shelf at your lfs dead from the heat of the shipping truck, right.

[websiteworld.com]

Doesn't the frozen food you buy have to be frozen?

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by DgenR8

The fact is, we all cycled our tanks for at least WEEKS, and have read stories

Well, I've cycled more tanks including huge systems with 200 gallon sumps than you'll even do in 10 lifetimes. Do you blame be for having attitude? You are basically calling me a liar, and you all look really ignorant in my eyes because I know it works, it has worked for years, and has even been improved in recent years.

The fact that you don't believe that by adding properly stored live nitrifying bacteria to the nitrogen cycle you speed up the process tells me that you have not even a basic understanding of the biological process going on in your aquarium, OR you just plain refuse to believe "BECAUSE".

After having people calling me a con man, and saying it won't work I have a right to cop an attitude.

How many of you had your own saltwater tank at home when you were 10?

How many of you have overseen 6 retail locations of freshwater and saltwater fish?

How many of you have bought 3,000.00 worth of fish wholesale and aclimated them all?

How many of you have a dad that knew Jack W. and help develop new colors of freshwater guppies and judged international fish compititions? My dad has an attic full of trophies.

That's a heck of a lot better than a piece of paper that says you are a doctor. I will take experience over a person educated in a public school system in the U.S any day.

Putting all the above aside, how to do explain that nearly ALL of the aquariums have used Fritz Chemical Company products? How many of your beloved products you speak about here have been studied by NASA?

Bottom line, its a pity someone that is more involved in the pet industry than any of you has come along and educated you about a product you never even knew about, and you are negative.

Your loss, when you move or buy a new tank waste a month, I could care less. I was just trying to give you some REAL knowledge that isn't taught in college.

[ginntonic74]

I was just asking you a question about how they ship the stuff. I never said anyhting about you being a con man. And i was just wondering if they ship the stuff in a cooler truck because if they dont then all is dead right. Please answer my question then you can rant. Our frozen food comes in a foam box packed with dry ice. Are you saying that they ship this stuff in dry ice. And does the store you buy this stuff at store it in freezers or on the shelf where it can die before you buy it.

[websiteworld.com]

No it's store improperly, and they leave it in the back of a hot truck in the summer along with the fish and frozen foods.


Can anyone here read? http://www.fritzpet.com/turbostartmain.html
Fritz TurboStart is a live concentrated bacteria so it must be kept refrigerated. This means that you will not see it on your local pet or aquarium store's shelves, it is more than likely in a rerigerator staying fresh in the back.

[ginntonic74]

yes i can read can you spell. It is STORED not store. And dont get smart with me i was just asking you a question about this stuff. It sounds as if it supposed to do the same thing as stress zyme and special blend but it says it does it faster right.

[websiteworld.com]

Ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer is what I always heard.

[RIVERROBSKI]

Hey I am back.This guy is like my X wife,I could never get 2 cents in.Just let lie and it will go away.I think most people on RC know who and what to listen too.Every one has there own opinion even though it may not be right,even me sometimes(LOL).There is no use in going back and forth.Last words said.

[ginntonic74]

Sounds good to me. Bye Bye Thread.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by RIVERROBSKI
This guy is like my X wife,


Does it make you feel better about your failed marriage to constantly talk about it it relate it to people you don't even know? So far you've mentioned it at least twice just in this thread.
Personally I think it is pretty tacky.

The bad mouthing was not started by me read the thread from page 1.

[Nagel]

Ok, this thread is getting WAY out of hand. If I see any more name calling, its getting closed. Websiteworld, you made your point, now stop PUSHING the product, jeez, you would think you have some sort of stake in the sale of it all... CONSTRUCTIVE discussions and question / answer are fine, but if you guys start deviating towards the "stupid question, stupid answer" or name calling mentality, this threads gonna get closed.

Thank you for your understanding....

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by Nagel
Ok, this thread is getting WAY out of hand. If I see any more name calling, its getting closed.


Yeah, you are right, telling people they sound like your ex wife (twice) is completely off base and has nothing to do with fish tanks.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by Nagel
CONSTRUCTIVE discussions and question / answer are fine,

There was nothing constructive about this discussion. Only ignorant (look up the word before you panic) comments including the first one from moderators of this board like " I do not believe in any of them." "Snake oil" etc.

That is pure unadulterated ignorance from a skeptic who hasn't a clue what he or she is talking about.

It is quite pitiful that you all claim to know so much about reefs but don't understand the impact adding live bacteria has on the cycle.

I don't have a stake in anything, ignorant people just really get on my nerves.

Once again we have learned that the internet is a breeding ground for igorant people who think they know what they are talking about but really don't. Seems to me like someone should look into this product since it is so cheap and see for themselves that IT DOES WORK. Just think how much time it saves you.

[mogurnda]

I feel like I should just let this thread die, but can't resist. The issue I have with Fritz Zyme, or any other source of nitrifying bacteria, is that it's not just having the bacteria, but where they are. Live rock already has them, but they need a chance to get growing in the nooks and crannies for the system to work properly.
This is a belief system, and had not been empirically tested, but so far I have seen nothing in terms of real data (yes, I have a PhD, although it's only a lowly American PhD) to make me believe otherwise.
Frankly, it's not clear to me why one needs to hurry the process along. No matter what you do, your tank will have a limited capacity for livestock, so why not go slowly and carefully with your additions?

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by SPC
Posted by websiteworld.com:
-I was wondering if you have a link we could look at that discusses this?
Thanks,
Steve

I spoke with someone at Fritz about two years ago and he told me about it, which is much better than a "link" on the internet.

Call them and ask them.

[SPC]

Posted by websiteworld.com:
How many of your beloved products you speak about here have been studied by NASA?


-I was wondering if you have a link we could look at that discusses this?
Thanks,
Steve

[websiteworld.com]

From Fritz web site:

Aquarium owners (aka reefcentral folks) are often confused as to which product is really best for their application. Often described as “biological additives�, “beneficial bacteria� or “assisting in ammonia and nitrite control," many competitive products contain Bacillus sp. bacteria and not true nitrifiers. Users expecting rapid ammonia reduction are disappointed with little change in "cycling" time when using other products.



FACT: Nitrifying Bacteria count (Minimum) 37,500,000 per ounce

http://www.fritzpet.com/turbo900_main.html

[websiteworld.com]

By popular demand... I wanted a few people to go ahead and get in deep on the World is Flat theory.

Here is ur proof.


http://www.fritzpet.com/nitrifying_bacteria_lab.html

[DgenR8]

HELLO, McFLY........

You gave links to Fritz' site, Am I supposed to be surprised that the manufacturer has good things to say about this product? I wouldn't believe Coralife was the best salt on the market just because Coralife put that on the Internet somewhere. :rolleye1:

You keep going back to this term "live bacteria" I don't think there's anyone participating in or reading this thread that's having a hard time believing that live bacteria cycles a tank, what is in question here is weather or not this bacteria can be sustained in a bottle, on a shelf, somewhere.
Now, can you show me an impartial scientific review of this product?
This community is above your snide attitude and snotty comments, if you wish to continue this discussion, do it with respect and civility.

[mogurnda]

Enough. I am skeptical because I have been burned by a lot of "too good to be true" products.

The point of this thread is that there is a lot that has to happen in a reef tank, long after nitrifying bacteria have become established, to acheive stability. Maybe you can speed up the initial steps with FZ. THERE IS STILL A LOT THAT HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE YOUR NITRATES DROP AND YOUR TANK IS READY FOR DELICATE LIVESTOCK.

I would not recommend it to a newbie, because I haven't tried it. It might be a gift from the gods. Last time I set up a tank with freshly shipped live rock, I got a tiny NH3 peak and trace nitrates with just a little good husbandry. That is how I would suggest a newbie deal with their tank: fewer products, more husbandry. If others have different opinions, fine. I am so done with this:mad:

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by DgenR8
HELLO, McFLY........

You gave links to Fritz' site, Am I supposed to be surprised that the manufacturer has good things to say about this product?


I think your reading comprehension skills are deficient, probably from watching the Back to the Future Trilogy DVD's too much.

Biological Science Department at California State University is an independent study, Bubba.

Try reading instead of thread crapping.

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by mogurnda

I would not recommend it to a newbie, because I haven't tried it.

Newbies need it more than anyone, patience is still a rule, you don't want to flood the tank with livestock.

[websiteworld.com]

By the way mods, what is going on here is thread crapping which is the number one reason why other forums spring up and dominate.

People get sick of posting stuff and then everyone on the board thread crapping. I am suprised you have mod's thread crapping, especially since I am 100 percent certain you are wrong about this subject matter. Everyone was too busy thinking of something negative to take the time to read about it. I guarantee you none of the thread crappers even read the study from California.

[mogurnda]

I feel like such a sap. This is just flame bait, and I took it seriously. Can this be closed now?

[DgenR8]

Websiteworld,
I'm getting the feeling you'd be more comfortable at one of those other "dominating" boards.
You and I are not going to see this the same way, as sure as you seem to be that this product is real, I am equally sure that you are mistaken.
You have allowed a good discussion to go to pot, congratulations,
Thread closed