T. Maxima Clams purchased between June 2002 to November 2002, Dead or Alive?

[Project Reef]

Strictly T. Maxima clams purchased anywhere in between the dates of June of 2002 and November of 2002.

Are they dead, or still alive and well (knock on wood) ?

Please take this Poll.

*Optional but not necessary, please state where and when you purchased the T. Maxima clam.


*Moderators, please do me the favor of not moving this thread to the clam forum, during the first week or so of it's existence in the Reef Discussion Forum. (Thanks). After a week, no problem.

[o2manyfish]

I have 3 small Gold/Orange Maxima's and 1 Blue Ultra Maxima. They were puchased at the end of Nov.

All 4 are doing well, and I just sent a Gold Maxima to a friend last week.

They were purchased directly from a wholesaler at LAX (Sea Dwelling) . I think they were from Walt Smith's farms.

Dave

[Mad Scientist]

3 doing fine bought from a Boston LFS (Skiptons) during that time period. At least one was an ORA clam.

[sea-horsea]

O2manyfish-are they like jeffs where they can have walk-ins and sell to hobbyist too? or you have connections :)

[o2manyfish]

Sea-Horse

I have the connections !!!! I hit the LAX wholesalers about once a month.

Dave

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by o2manyfish
Sea-Horse

I have the connections !!!! I hit the LAX wholesalers about once a month.

Dave

Dave, next time you're taking me with you. Otherwise, I won't be your friend.

[pathos]

dead.

In fact, I think clams should be put on the list along with goniporas, elegance, nudibrachs, and any other corals/critters that we cannot keep alive and happy for a sustained period of time. I have had several clams (Maxima, Derasa and Squamosa) and IMHO they are all too finicky for the home aquarium.

this is not to say that they cannot be successfully kept. I am just saying that they require daily attention and an absolutely constant pristine environment to survive and thrive. forget about going on vacation or letting your tank run on autopilot for a few days with clams. they are a daily commitment. i'll go sorfar aws to say that a calcium reactor would be standard equipment to successfully keep clams. I've been wanting to bring this topic up. Curious what others have to say.

*For the record I successfully kept a beautiful 7" blue maxima,as well as a squamosa and derasa alive for over a year. but every time I went on vacation one died. And now I have none. I recently bought a very nice Maxima and it died within 2 weeks.

I don't buy clams anymore because I am not capable of keeping them alive :( let this be a warning to other reefers. check my website for more info.

pathos

[Anemia]

purchased a beautiful blue/green maxima at approx 2" in early november from an LFS in lewiston, ID. they had the clam in their tank for about 2 months prior to my purchase. it seems to be doing wonderfully. mantle extension is great, i think it may have even grown a bit, although it may be wishful thinking.

[yakmon]

i bought a 3 inch maxima at marks tropical in november. hes a happy little guy

http://home.pacbell.net/yakmon/clam.JPG

[golfish]

Ali, I can't vote for some stupid arse reason but you know I had one die. Just lucky it didn't infect my other clam or I'd be petty ticked off

[Turtlesteve]

3" blue maxima from LFS bought during the summer is still alive and well, has grown 2 new scutes.

pathos, i completely disagree on the issue of clam keeping. If disease free they are incredibly hardy. My 2 clams have survived a FW dip for "pinched mantle disease" as well as lot's of screwups on my part such as temp swings from 77-86 degrees and accidental overdosings of kalk, etc.

[Mad Scientist]

pathos,

I have to diagree, I think clams are one of the easiest of all the reef inverts we keep. I don't really follows what you are saying about going on vacation, do you leave your tanks unattended for weeks at time? Also, the comment made by you that one needs a Ca reactor to keep clams is really off the wall.

Bottom line, if you get a healthy aquacultured clam (and there are tons of them out there) and put in a tank with the right light and easily attainable water parameters, clams are very hardy. If one purchases a decent sized clam you don't even need to worry feeding phyto.

Your comparison of clams to those other animals is one of the most off the wall pieces of miss-information I have read on this board (or any board) in quite some time. The husbandry of clams is very well know, they are available captive bred, and many people keep clams alive for long periods of time.

Your comment that clams need "pristine" conditions shows that you don't know very much about these animals, so please refrain from making sweeping generalizations because you are really far off the mark on this one......

[hcs3]

4 max's from HA in november. all doing well (so far).

FWIW, i think you have to make an effort to kill clams if it is not infected. i have a derasa with me for over 4 years now. it was the only coral to survive my crash of 2001 when my tank was 110 degrees for 5 days. it also survived the crash of 2002 when my tank was without electricity for 4 days. i was on vacation for both of these incidents.

HTH

henry

[stereomandan]

Project Reef,

Why are you asking this question?

Curious,
Dan

[SteveMH]

I know my clam days are all over with. Had an entire collection wiped out before to the "mysterious virus." And now my collection of 10 is getting wiped out all over again to "some kind of infection." As of now seven clams are left, and two of those are on their way out. And guess which clams died first ... all of the aquacultured ones. People can say how hardy these animals are all they want, fact is there hasn't been enough scientific research done yet to determine some these mysterious illnesses that hundreds of people have been experiencing.

Who is carrying captive bred clams?

[justletmein]

Late November 3.5" maxima from coralcity.com died @ about 4 weeks in my tank.

[pathos]

I can only speak from my own experience. The fact is, all of my clams are gone now but everything else in my reef is thriving, including acros, montis, LPS and softies. I apologize for making such extreme generalizations. If I may retract my earlier statements and re-define my position as this:

clams should not be kept by beginner reefers. they require intense lighting, constant and high calcium levels, and must be in perfect health upon purchase.

people have been experiencing some mysterious clam disease lately where any new clams introduced into a tank with older, established clams will die and infect all the older clams in the process. I think this may be why project reef brought this topic up. apologies if my comments earlier seem "off the wall". If all truths be told I did write that after coming home from a party :eek1: but that doesn't change my past experiences with clams. Speaking for myself and my personal experineces only, I do not think clams are anywhere near as easy as the general consensus will tell you.

[Mad Scientist]

The west coast clam illness affected a specific group of clams AND clams that came in contact with infected clams. Sure if you have an infected clam and you through it in with captive breed clams, the CBs will become sick too.

pathos sorry to jump you earlier, IMO, though, if you follow the clam "rules", which are pretty simple, these guys are pretty darn easy to keep. Of course, condition number 1 is to get a healthy clam.

Check out the clam forum some time and see what people are doing with clams, it's amazing.

This disease is very scary, I don't know anyone here in MA who has a had a confirmed case, but, I don't think it's a result of deficiency in what we know about clam husbandry.

Again, if you set up your first reef with a 1.5" clam and put it in a 10gal tank with PC lights, and you don't test your Ca levels, yup, clams are going to be "impossible" to keep, but, with the right system AND a disease free clam to start with, they really are not very difficult to keep. For me, for example, a difficult animal is one in which no one is sure of what the captive conditions are to keep it, this is not the case with clams.

Also, my understanding of the great clams disease was that it has been linked to wild-caught clams only (and other clams that came in contact with them). Tons of clams are aquacultured here in the US (by companies like ORA) and in the Indo-pacfic by local farms.

Buy decent sized captive clams that have not come in contact with infected ones, put them under bright MH light, and keep your CA/ALK up and you'll be all set. Also, clams can be kepts without Ca reactors, it's just a little expensive (in the long run). I have a 40B w/out a reactor (although I'm in the market for one) and with the addition of a 6" gigas (one of about 200 which came into the US a couple months ago) this tank drinks Ca. I cna see where a person not knowledgable with manitaining Ca would be in a trouble pretty fast.

[SteveMH]

Aquacultured clams are still raised in the ocean, why should they be any different from a wild collected clam? The clams that died first in this most recent wipe out actually were ORA clams, all of them. They were the very first to show the symptoms and the first to die.

[Mad Scientist]

Steve how come in your previous post you ask "who aquacultures clams" and now in this post you are bring up ORA, what gives?

Captive propagated clams tend, in general, (putting this disease aside) to do better in captivity so people should always buy CB. Many captive bredding keep their clams separted from wild populations.

When you say the most recent "wipeout" are you just refering to your tank or are saying that a large scale die off took place where the all the infected calms where ORA clams. In that case, you should get your facts before you make such an accusation on a public board.

[SteveMH]

Captive bred and farm raised are two different things. I asked, "Who is carrying captive bred clams?" ORA is not a captive bred clam, they are farm raised. That's why I asked the question, I wondered if there was someone or a company doing this.

The "most recent wipe out" I mentioned is the second wipe out I am experiencing in my tank, like I already mentioned in my very first post. In this particular case, yes all of the clams that appear to be infected are ORA ultra maximas.

And don't be such an .

[edited]

[Philip]

I bought about a 3" gold max last july and he's been fine. I do not dose phyto, I really don't do a darn thing and he's happy as a clam, I posted a pic yesterday in the clam forum.

[Flame*Angel]

All 4 of my aquacultured maximas were purchased during this period from SeaCare in BC, Canada. Quite healthy to date.

The vote scares me, I had no idea this problem was so widespread!

[Project Reef]

Steve, sorry to hear about your clams. I have discovered, that as long as you have clams in an infected system, the 'disease' will be ongoing. In order to cure the tank of the disease, the tank must be free of any species of clams for a few months.

Corals, Fish, Sand, Rock. No clams.

After say 3 months go buy, you should try a 'test' clam. I know you like the fancy stuff, but it's too risky to spend 60-120 on an ultra maxima, just toss in a 3" gold maxima, which should cost you no more than 30-40 dollars. The recent ORA clams you purchased, might have been infected in the holding tank at the LFS or one of the previous clams in your tank that may have 'held' onto an infection. Manytimes Derasa clams, will show no signs, but *might* be infected because of a previous tank infection.

This is why it is imperative that all clams be removed from your system, and the tank must go w/o clams for a few months. It is also imperative to add the 'test' clam from a source which you know only holds the Farm Raised clams in seperate tanks than any other clams. This is why I'm always plugging Harbor Aquatics, because this is indeed what they do. Same goes w/ Patrick M. at spsfrags.com, who only houses ORA clams directly from ORA.

Try this before you completely give up on clams, I know you are passionate about clams and it would be a shame for you to never enjoy them again.


Pathos, I totally see where you are coming from. It must truely be frustrating to see all your clams die right before your eyes. I believe I read a post about your clams being infected back in late summer or so. If infection holds true for your tank as well, than the above advice would hopefully help your situation as well.

IMO, if clams are disease free, given good lighting and good water quality, then they are some of the most tolerant animals we keep.


Flame, you have some of the nicest clams I've seen. You better not kill them or I'll come after you.

[SteveMH]

I apologize for the profanity in my last post, what I said was uncalled for. Watching my clams die for a second time around has been frustrating, to say the least, and I lost it for a minute there.

I appreciate everything you say Project Reef, I know you are trying to help and you mean well. But everything you said, I have already done and been through in the past. Before getting back into clams I went without any clams at all for four months. After that things were great. I built my collection back up, paying very close attention and asking lots of questions about where the clam came from and where it was held before I added it to my tank, and even moved into a completely new tank. And now here I am back at square one with an infected tank all over again.

I am not so sure this is something that is coming in with the clams, which seems to be the popular belief. At least not in all cases. Because I sell ORA squamosa and ultra maxima clams, and derasa and crocea clams shipped in from the Marshall Islands through a LFS and have not lost a single clam at the store yet, knock on wood. But after moving a few of those same ORA clams to my home tank, they were the first to die when my problems started again this time. I maintain my home tank and the holding tanks at the store in the exact same way, only difference being that my home tank is a full reef and the store tanks are bare holding tanks with clams only.

Basically, the way I'm looking at it is if I don't understand what's going on when things go bad, then it doesn't make good sense to keep trying to keep them in my tank. If things end up going bad at the store I'll shut those tanks down too.

[Carribean Reef Man]

I purchased mine from Sea Dwelling as well we have an account with them. This was back in July and both of them are extremely happy just wish the blue one would open a little bit more..

[Corpus Callosum]

I purchased a 3" maxima from Allen at CoralCity about 2 months ago, been doing great in my tank and has put on some noticable new growth. 175 watt 10k MH and feed DT's every other day.

[Zoom]

I got this 3" maxima on the left side at the LFS at Oct 2002 is a ok

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=988042

[melev]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned buying any at MACNA last September. To be honest, I love clams, but after reading about the 'infection' last summer, I was very worried about buying one at all. I watched the ones at the LFS near my home, and they looked fine, but ...:rolleyes:

When I attended Macna, Joy from Harbor Aquatics had a gorgeous tank setup with probably 100 clams, mostly Maximas. Being that I only had my little 29 gal with 2x55w PCs, I asked many people there what type of clam they'd suggest for my setup.

Being stubborn, I wasn't ready to upgrade my lights (and build an entirely new canopy) to MH, but I sure did want a clam. :D Finally, I decided I needed to find out if for myself what might occur.

The only Derasa clams they had were HUGE, maybe 6-7" long, and 5" wide. Way too big for my tank. I decided to buy a beautiful blue Maxima, and put it at the very top of my tank, about 4" from the lights. Again, this was last September. For about 6 weeks, it hung out up on that rock, but it turned one way an then the other way, but finally did a nose-dive off the LR to my CC substrate, about 13-14" from the lights.

I have been watching it closely, but it really seems to like it down there. It is 4" long, extends its mantle fully, retracts whenever fish gather over it at feeding time, and just tonight I was remarking to myself how beautiful and vivid it still is. It might be my imagination, but I think it has grown a little as well.

I have added a third 55w PC over the tank, and I dose with B-Ionic daily. I feed 1.5 tbsp of DTs every other day.

And I have to say this, my tank is not pristine. I'm fighting a battle (and winning) with GHA currently. I use a CPR Bakpak with an extra airstone, and a sump/refugium. Phosphates .2, Nitrates 2ppm, Temp 76-78F, Calcium 350 (bought a Salifert Calcium Test Kit a couple of days ago, so I look forward to seeing if it ends up being higher than my Seachem Calcium Test!), dKH 11.

[golfish]

Originally posted by Mad Scientist

Buy decent sized captive clams that have not come in contact with infected ones,

This is the problem, how are we supposed to tell if the clams have come in contact with infected ones. I have seen this "west coast clam illness" in action, the healthy clams in the tank seem to be the first to go and it can take weeks to a couple months to see any effect of the illness.

BTW Ali, this problem has been around since way before June last year. I noticed it about three years ago when I bought some taked raised squas and Maximas, those little sob's wiped out 5 other clams I had.

[cromax]

Project Reef, we have had our differences in the past, but I am willing to talk them over with a few beers and a few women present. :D

A few of my observations concerning this alleged "disease". Take what you will from it. What we perceive as disease is actually the mysterious death of a clam. And, since clams can and do exhibit little to no signs of discomfort before suddenly melting to a gelatinous ooze, it is easy to speculate cause of death.

There are a few background factors which need to be taken into account:

1) Bacterial

If indeed the cause of death to clams was due to an aggressive bacterial species, in juvenile clams death can be as sudden as 2 days, perhaps longer for adult specimens. A species like Vibrio can do damage to a clam, but when you get down to it, Vibrio resides in everybody's tank on every marine surface, more so if your tank's water quality is neglected.

Dead clams are an excellent breeding ground for such gram-negative bacteria that prey on tridacnids. But, most importantly, the bacteria will always be present in your tank. A quarantine period of a few months will not render you safe from harmful bacteria, since bacteria can lay dormant in their capsular form for years until a suitable host arrives.

Knop mentions in his book that antibiotics are ineffective against such gram-negative bacteria since the clams succumb to death before an antibiotic can take effect. My limited experience with Erythromycin and Tetracycline in clams seems to support Knop's observation. And, contrary to previous posts on Reef Central, dosage is important. As with any animal, there is a maximum effective concentration, above which you get toxicity.

2) Nutrient / Element Deficiencies

You can have 6 arms and 2 pairs of legs, count all of your toes and fingers, and still be short counting the number of nutrients you can potentially deprive your clam of.

We know that clams need nitrates. They need phospates. Ca is a given, easily measured and seldom forgotten. Iodine is also a big element. But how about the unmeasurable or virtually undetectable elements, the truly trace elements we know next to nothing about when it comes to their usefulness in clam biology?

Is it really a coincidence that the most devastating clam losses occur in tanks with relatively high clam populations? We attribute this to a contagious disease, but it is possible what we are actually observing is a rapid depletion of an element or elements which clams need to survive, to function. And certainly when you delve more into the biological aspect of things, ion channels and such, a deficiency of a single ion over a long period of time can have catastrophic consequences on metabolic activity. Especially since the tridacnids we keep pull the majority of the elements they need from the water they live in.

3) Collection and Stress

Yes, wild collected clams experience more stress than aquacultured ones. Aside from having their byssal threads torn and suffering a longer than normal transit time, these clams are the least likely to succeed in your system.

But, stress can also be experienced by clams even if they are not collected wild, and the wild clams, well, this additional stress is another reason you won't see wild clams for sale at your LFS. Each plane trip, changes in pressure, water temperature, light, physical stress, can weaken a clam's immune system. Significantly? Absolutely. This is to say nothing of how many different holding vessels and tanks with questionable water quality they must endure before arriving at your door or LFS.

But, let's say for some reason, on top of all the stress factors already mentioned, a wholesaler decides to throw clams in a holding tank with metal halides after they've been sitting in near total darkness for almost 24 hours, or sporadic illumination over the course of 2 to 3 days. No acclimation. Congratulations. These clams will self-destruct in a few weeks, since we have reached and far exceeded the limits of the organisms' adaptability.

Bringing it all together:

Given the abuse tridacnids endure to arrive at our homes, it should come as little surprise to those who have had poor success with clams. Any organism with a depressed immune system is going to be less resistant to disease, and perhaps combined with yet another lighting and environment change, is just enough to degrade a clam's health beyond return.

I have had the best success with clams that take only 2 trips. 1 trip from the farm to a knowledgable dealer, 1 trip from that dealer to my tank.

The "mysterious clam disease" is probably a combination of factors listed here, because the degradation of a reasonable number of clams in an otherwise healthy tank is not normal. Or, maybe it is exactly what people say it is. It is a mysterious clam disease.

[Project Reef]

Cromax, those are all fantastic examples of how Healthy clams can meet their demise in the home aquaria.

The infected clams, however, are indeed 'infected'. Some of these other factors that you mention may have happened to them in the wild that 'caused' them to be infected in the first place, but once the wholesalers aquire them, it's already said and done.

In our reef tanks we are not dealing with healthy clams that 'become' infected in our tanks, we are dealing with infected clams that have been aquired as infected clams.

Unless some big bucks are spent and a lot of time is put into the proper research, we aren't going to find out the real deal. I've said many times we need scientists/biologist to go out into the islands where these 'infected' clams are coming in from and conduct tests and comparisons between those clams and say clams coming from other locations. But all this will cost mucho dinero, and I honestly do not think there are any people out their with the funds who care about doing this.

Why should they care? They bring in clams that appear healthy, people buy them, they make money. Until this disease/infection is brought to the attention of the entire industry, published in the many Magazines, books, etc., then forget it. There is not enough exposure.

[cromax]

Hahaha. I am a graduate biologist/researcher. But clams are not my field. They are my addiction. And yes, unfortunately there will be no research done on clams because it is not "financially feasible". The losses we experience are insignificant compared to the number of successfully reared clams in the Pacific utilized for food and repopulation of natural reefs.

The only people concerned with our predicament is other hobbyists, like you and me, so, I would seek help from a marine biologist who SPECIALIZES in tridacnids who is also a hobbyist with an intense interest in clams. If you find one let me know.

[SteveMH]

That was some good reading. The poll results are amazing too.

What would be a good guideline for the stocking levels of clams? Just curious to see what you all think about this, since it is something I have not considered before.

[Mad Scientist]

If is this a "real" disease isn't it bound to show up in some of those huge Pacific clam farms?

Since it seems most people who have lost clams to this disease are reporting losses within the first 30-60days can't this problem be dealt with by LFS holding clams for a period of time and by the consumer monitoring the health of a LFSs clam stock?


What the feeling among the major US importers? I had heard last summer when I first heard of this problem that it was prevlant in clams collected from a certain area is that no longer the case?

If aquacultured clams (such as ORAs) are infected how come they are not having massive die offs at their farms?

So, for those who feel this disease is real and that all clams, even aquacultred clams, are possible carriers, do you think people should stop buying all clams? Like so many people I have hundreds of dollars worth of healthy clams, why should I risk all their health by adding one more clam if this disease is really out there.

Also, I know most reefers don't think favorably of UV, but, the more I read, the happier I am that I'm running one.

In terms of stocking, that's a good question, I always though as many as you can fit and I guess I hoped frequent water changes and minimal skimming would take care of trace mineral problems and I dump in tons of homegrown phyto.

This thread has been a eye opener for me and put the fear of god in me in terms of my beloved clams.

[Turtlesteve]

It only makes since to me that ORA clams are the first to succomb when an infection is introduced into an established clam tank...........

They have been grown in captivity for years and have lost whatever natural immunities they have and therefore succomb quicker to the "disease." They don't carry the disease themselves, but still die quickly when exposed to it.

[cromax]

Steve, with regards to stocking levels, unfortunately I don't think anybody could advise you in good faith. But I can tell you that for me, it comes down to biodiversity. The more biodiverse an ecosystem, the more stable it becomes. The same can be said for our reef systems. If you want to have long term success with clams, get 2 or 3, and place them in a tank full of hard corals, soft corals, and all the little slimy critters you can find with a nice refugium full of nutrient exporters.

The primary goal here is to ensure that no particular set of critical elements are depleted faster than they can be replenished by your water changes, additives, etc. Giving our animals the very basics they need to survive is the greatest challenge. Use your best judgement.

As a general reef hobbyist, this would be your best ticket for long-term (>5years) success with clams. Keeping higher densities of clams requires special care beyond the scope of this thread.

[cromax]

Mad, I do not know the answers to all your proposed questions but I do have some thoughts.

Some vendors do quarantine their clams - Barry at Clamsdirect does, and FFexpress does - that I know of. The maximum quarantine period I have heard of is 14 days. Anyone know about Harbor?

I am of the opinion that the stress induced by moving clams from their grow-out locations leaves them open to infection and susceptible to unknown causes of death.

I have experimented quite extensively with UV and clams and will tell you that even with UV, I had unexplained clam deaths.

Obviously, growing out large numbers of clams in closed systems for extended periods of time is possible. Look at ORA. But they won't tell you anything. They spent $$$ in research figuring it out and won't relenquish their competitive advantage.

[JFish]

I lost both of my maximas about 4-5 months after I got them...They were doing great...then all of a sudden one week the smaller one was dead in a day and the larger one which looked fine one day had a receding mantle and just died a week after the first... I have also noticed that all of the small sandbed clams I got from IPSF are dead as well...and just recently because I would dig around for them occasionally to see if they're still there and then one time I pulled up an empty shell and I started seeing more empty shells days later. The only thing I introduced to my tank during this time was a red finger gorgonian...I am not going to be getting any clams again...atleast not for a long while.

[Palmetto]

Originally posted by cromax

Obviously, growing out large numbers of clams in closed systems for extended periods of time is possible. Look at ORA. But they won't tell you anything. They spent $$$ in research figuring it out and won't relenquish their competitive advantage. [/B]

Actually, ORA gets their clams in from the Marshall Islands just like Seadwelling does. They do not culture and breed the clams themselves at ORA, although they do propagate many types of fish.

They do, however, deal with one source for their clams. They do not mix wild-caught and Marshall farmed clams.

There is no reason ORA's clams would be any less resistant to disease either, as they come from Marshall Islands lagoon farms in the ocean.

:)

[SteveMH]

Originally posted by Palmetto


Actually, ORA gets their clams in from the Marshall Islands just like Seadwelling does. They do not culture and breed the clams themselves at ORA, although they do propagate many types of fish.

They do, however, deal with one source for their clams. They do not mix wild-caught and Marshall farmed clams.

There is no reason ORA's clams would be any less resistant to disease either, as they come from Marshall Islands lagoon farms in the ocean.

:)

Right, that is exactly how it was explained to me before. I thought that maybe we were experiencing some things similar to what can happen when mixing WC and CB seahorses. But after understanding the above, it doesn't make sense that an ORA clam would have an immune system any different than a wild collected clam. A Marshall farmed clam is farmed in the same waters as a collected clam, it seems like to me.

[cromax]

Palmetto, I know they don't breed clams, but I thought ORA purchased smaller clams and grew them out in their greenhouses here in Ft. Pierce.

Is ORA just an intermediary supplier? They just hold clams?

[Palmetto]

That is correct, cromax. ORA will, of course hold, nurture, and grow them all they can while in their care-

but they order them in and ship them out as adult clams.

They take excellent care of their clams, and the weather down there is perfect for handling them for the most part.

It is also very nice for me to get them from Florida to S.C. vs. coast-to-coast.

:)

[cromax]

Thanks for the clarification, Darren. Their statement on the website mislead me:

ORA News 2002 – “Many retailers now can rely on ORA to supply high quality tank-raised corals, clams and fish, which are impossible to get from any other single source.�

Tank raised corals, clams, and fish lead me to believe they raised them and grew them out like they do everything else!

[Mad Scientist]

But, ORA clams are still breed in captivity right? My understanding was that while Pacific farms resturn clams they are growing to adult sized to the ocean (where they farm them) that clams like they the ones thye sell to ORA are captive bred, rasied in holding vats andthen shipped to FL, is this incorrect? If not, Does anyone actually sell true captive bred clams?

[anathema]

that I purchased from a local aquarium store that also sells flowers. This store still has clams that are visibly infected. Hint to the locals.

The first two clams thrived for many months, and even showed significant. Clam 1 was a crocea, 2 & 3 Maximas.

Upon the introduction of a third clam(which I quarantined for 3 weeks) from the same store all 3 were dead inside of a month.

The first clam was purchased December 01.

The last clam was purchased November 02.

My tank is without clams. :(

Pathos you lost that lavender clam!? That sucks!

[Palmetto]

The clams are captive-bred, because they were fertilized and harvested in captive systems, then usually placed in cages in lagoons during certain growing stages. There are all sorts of runway systems on land that sort and hold them also.

Most of their life, however, is spent in the "real" ocean. Just in cages. :)

Here is some interesting reading on clam nurseries:

http://library.kcc.hawaii.edu/external/ctsa/publications/GCManual.html

[zt allstar]

I purchased a gold Maxima on 7-5-02 and it is quite healty to date. I also have a Squamosa prior to the Maxima. Both from the LFS.

[Mad Scientist]

Thanks Palmetto, fascinating stuff.

So, do you think these overseas distrubuters are losing tons of clams? How come they die so fast on arrival? Are they coming in sick or is just that a very few infected clams have contaminated holding systems in the US?

I'm starting to realize why this disease is being called mysterious.

I'm sure lots of people reading this thread are going to think twice about getting their next clam (or perhaps their first clam) which is shame because they are such beautful animals. It would be great to find a cure, but, if it is a gram-neg bacteria that's going to be tough.
:(

[SteveMH]

Had another one that was looking fine yesterday, retracting this morning, and it's gone tonight. This one was a 5" crocea from Clams Direct, a Marshall Island I'm pretty sure. Whatever this is, it looks like it's going to go on down the line until no clams are left. Bad part is I still got six to go! Kinda wish it would just end all at once and be over with.

[melev]

Originally posted by Mad Scientist
I'm sure lots of people reading this thread are going to think twice about getting their next clam (or perhaps their first clam) which is shame because they are such beautful animals.
:(

Of course, by reading along so much can be learned in the process. I've been reading very carefully, and learned that clams need nitrates. Now what am I gonna do?! My tank is at 2ppm today, at the most. And I'm already barely doing water changes as it is. Do I need to overfeed the tank to get some nice pollution going? (I can't believe I typed that!):rolleyes:

:confused: Marc

[cromax]

Steve, I have witnessed this process a few times now, it is devastating to say the least. They look fine, then they don't expand their mantles fully, and in the course of one day, poof! It's like playing the tables at Vegas or what I like to describe as setting 20 dollar bills from your wallet on fire and watching them burn in your hands. It's no fun. You're not alone. Look at how many hits this thread has.

Try to make this a learning process. If they start dropping like flies and you feel you've got nothing to lose, try anything you might think would help. You could stumble on some data and add to the pool of knowledge we have that might point us in a more definitive direction.

Sadly, keeping clams in aquaria is relatively new for reefkeepers. Keeping large numbers of clams successfully for years in closed aquaria is unheard of. Croceas and Maximas should outlive their owners. Knop said he would not be surprised if croceas lived to be 50 years or more. Shimek said tridacnids show no old age or senescence.

Maybe 10 years from now we will have more answers. Maybe sooner. This forum moves too fast for me. I am going back to my "shell". The clam forum.

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by cromax
This forum moves too fast for me. I am going back to my "shell". The clam forum.

You are not going anywhere my fellow pharmacy school going comrade. Stay put, we are going to sit here together, tap into our medulas and drink 'pop' until we figure this thing out.

[cromax]

Ok, one more post. :D

Melev, nitrates should only be a "problem" for you if you have a lot of clams.

With one clam or two, 2ppm is perfectly acceptable. As with any changes, should you decide to make them, they should be done slowly. And if you have SPS, increasing nitrates might not be the best thing to do! Softies are more tolerant, though I would not recommend changing anything unless you absolutely have to.

If you must have more nitrates, slowly add more fish. :bigeyes:

[SteveMH]

Well, what I have learned is that there are too many things about these animals that we don't know enough about. There wouldn't be threads like this one if that were not true. And with that in mind, they don't have a place in the home aquarium. I know a LOT of people have been very successful keeping clams and a LOT of people are going to strongly disagree with me. But after my experiences, that is the opinion I have come to. I won't buy any more clams after this, and I'm selling off my clam stock at the LFS at cost and getting out of it all. So far I have heard no complaints, but I would feel horrible if I knew I put a customer through this.

Just my opinion.

[cromax]

Eh, it is because of pharmacy school that I seek peaceful, quiet, more relaxing, less turbid movement. :D

[cromax]

Hey Steve, I hope I didn't disuade you from keeping clams. Bleak as the clam thread may look - we really only have problems keeping more than one or two clams in a large system for extended periods of time. If it is any consolation, I have noticed that a single clam in a large, diverse reef tank does exceptionally well for years.

You will notice this if a LFS has a large reef tank with a single display clam in it. In my experience, they do very well. I have seen 3 LFS in GA and Fl like this. And every time, every year I visit I wave at my favorite clam.

Just an observation.

[anathema]

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sci/sealane/aquac/pages/perkincc.htm

Has anyone noticed cysts on any infected clams?

I thought I did on the sick one when I brought it home, but wasn't sure if it was the disease or normal.

Another idea I had for a good place to start investigating is commercial clam/oyster/other shellfish. I used to live near an oyster farm, and these are the guys that would spend money to find out what was happening if their livelihood got sick. Anyone know a shellfish farmer?

There is lots of info on clam diseases that is buried in technical papers on the web. I don't pretend to understand it, but it's quite possible that this is a known pathogen that the hobby isn't informed of. Remember, these clams are farmed for food, and therein could lie the answer to funding. It's even possible the FDA of some country has discovered exactly what is wrong and decided it isn't harmful to ingest and then filed it and forgetten.

Just ideas.

[melev]

Originally posted by cromax
Ok, one more post. :D

Melev, nitrates should only be a "problem" for you if you have a lot of clams.

With one clam or two, 2ppm is perfectly acceptable. As with any changes, should you decide to make them, they should be done slowly. And if you have SPS, increasing nitrates might not be the best thing to do! Softies are more tolerant, though I would not recommend changing anything unless you absolutely have to.

If you must have more nitrates, slowly add more fish. :bigeyes:

Thank you for giving me some piece of mind, Cromax. I was so proud of my low nitrates, as I used to have them at 80ppm or more for years! After I added my sump/refugium to my 29 gal, the nitrates have dropped and dropped and have at times tested at zero to my amazement.

I have SPS, one LPS, softies, a BTA and the Maxima, plus 6 fish. <g> I know, I know, too heavily populated. I dose B-Ionic daily, and top off with RO/DI and that is it. Everything is doing well, including GHA (grrrr!) unfortunately.

I'd love to add a nice Yellow Tang to eat that off the rocks, but there is no way I'd do that to a tang.

Marc

[31-2c]

As a side note:

I remember a news aricle a few months back where scientists got a Multi-Million dollar government grant to figure out why a Ghecko's feet were sticky. :crazy1: :crazy1: :crazy1:


If the government is willing to put money up for that, then I am sure they will give a grant to study this problem.

Just a thought

David

PS. The scientists did uncover the mystery of sticky ghecko feet, as if anyone actually cared

[Squidman]

Two ultra maxima's and a squamosa from www.clamsdirect.com . All still doing well and growing nicely. :D

[jackel55]

One thing I'd like to add. I strongly discourage people from buying very small clams (especially mailorder). I'm talking about anything < 2". They just do not fare well from shipping. Many folks have documented problems with very small clams and I can attest (not just maximas either).

[cromax]

Anathema, I have noticed small white nodules or "cysts" on clams. It is described rather nicely in Knop's book. And although he describes it as rare, I have noticed a few specimens with these cysts. I certainly don't think it is rare. I have owned a few specimens with these cysts - and seen a few in LFS.

What is interesting is that these white cysts are only readily observable by looking at the mantle through the glass at an angle and not directly down on the mantle. They are easy to overlook as well. Interestingly, the cysts are not uniform in size, but are the size of a pinhead at their largest and can be even smaller, resembling minute circular raised dots.

These appear to be embedded in the mantle. They look identical to WSD that Knop describes in his book. He has many good pictures of it there. But the clams I kept only had 4 or 5 of these randomly scattered on the mantle, and the clams were opened fully as well. They attribute this condition to an infective protozoan, and Knop said that there was a report of curing clams with WSD using chloramphenicol. Knop really doesn't give any details.

Sadly, as with practically all known clam pathogens, there is no listed cure. If you have any clams with this, quarantine it from healthy clams.

[Squidman]

jackel55 - FWIW, if my memory is correct, I have lost approximately 4 clams in shipping out of 20 or so that I have ordered. 3 of those were my very first shipment and looking back on it I think I screwed up acclimating them. Anyway, 3 of the 4 were larger clams, 2"-4", while most of the clams I order are 1.5"-2". My experience has led me to believe that the smaller ones actually ship better. This may not be typical but it has been my experience. I have 3 clams currently that were 1" when I got them. The biggest of them is almost 3" now. The only clam that survivved the first shipment was a 1". Also, I have never had a clam die once acclimated to my tank, regardless of size.

[OrionN]

I got 8 Maxima in November 2002. I keep 5 and two friends got the other 3. All 8 are alive and well.
Minh Nguyen

[golfish]

Originally posted by SteveMH
Had another one that was looking fine yesterday, retracting this morning, and it's gone tonight. This one was a 5" crocea from Clams Direct, a Marshall Island I'm pretty sure. Whatever this is, it looks like it's going to go on down the line until no clams are left. Bad part is I still got six to go! Kinda wish it would just end all at once and be over with.

Steve, How long ago did you get the clam from CD? could that be the one that infected your other clams?

[SteveMH]

Actually, I should correct that. The one that died last night was a 3" ultra maxima from Clams Direct. I got so many clams dying over here I can't even keep track of them. The 5" crocea from Clams Direct began retracting yesterday, and I imagine it won't be long now until it too is gone. The maxima was bought last spring, and the corcea was bought about a month and a half ago.

As for where the virus came from, I think anything is possible. I suppose it could have even come from my own holding tanks at the store, I mean how can we know for sure without any scientific evidence. I think it came from a 3" crocea I bought from a new LFS that recently opened near me. A few reasons why I think this ... the store owner refused to tell me where the clam came from before I purchased it. Right there I should have left it and walked away, but the clam was too cool and I didn't use my best judgement. This clam was the last addition to my tank, and soon after that is when my other clams began showing the symptoms. I went back to the LFS again after the problems started in my tank and they still refused to tell me where the clam came from. I mentioned the virus to them and they had no idea what I was talking about, which tells me they're probably not being careful about where they purchase their clam stock from. And, it has been doing great while my other clams are dying, which suggests to me that since it is the carrier it is probably immune to it.

All of these things are just my own thoughts. I really don't know, I'm just trying to come to some kind of logical conclusion as to how my tank got infected again. Only assuming of course that it is indeed a virus. I'm not ruling anything out at this point.

[glipper69]

squamosa 1 year , crocea 6 months, doing great with absolutely no special attention. purchased a LFS.

must be lucky I guess

Frank

[RonN]

I have received 4 shipments from Clams Direct since July, a total of 10 clams and I lost one the day it arrived. Barry said it was most likely shipping stress. The other 9 are doing well and growing. He told me that his clams come from the same farm that ORA gets theirs from.

I know that he keeps his clams a while before shipping because the last time I ordered I wanted them shipped that next day and he said that they would not be ready to ship till that next week.

Ron