French Angelfish disease??

[JazzZero]

I recentally got a french angelfish, it was fine for the first few days. Then all the sudden the french angel started to grow white bubbles in the back of the tail and fin. Also this didn't spread to other fish. So i decided to put it in to a hospital tank with some med (Maracyn). Still the bubbling only started to spread even more.

My questions are:

What is this disease or infection?

How can i cure it?

[LisaD]

do a google image search on lymphocystis, see if it looks like that. if this is it, no cure, but it is often not fatal, and will go away with good water quality and nutrition. lympho is viral, so antibiotics won't help. I have seen it on many juvenile angels, and it will often go away on its own.

do you really have 6 angels in an 80 gallon tank? that could be trouble. many fish are more susceptible to disease when stressed by aggressive interactions.

[JazzZero]

ye, i get that alot about the 6 angelfish in a 80Gs but somehow they keep peace in the tank, they never actually fight. But, boy wow you have a lot of tanks thats pretty sick.:D :D :D

O by the way i think your right it is lymphocystis. But this leads me to another question

Can lymphocystis spread to other fishes??

[ccampbell57]

Jazz - please return some of the angels if not all. An 80g tank is too small for one let alone SIX!!!! This is really hard to see that you have all those beautiful angels in a small tank like that.

You will need at least 300g to house that many.

[LisaD]

really, ccampbell is right. your set-up can't work long term in that sized tank.

As to lympho being transmitted to other fish, IME I haven't seen that happen, but I'm not sure. It is a virus, and I'm sure it is catching, somehow. I have had it show up occasionally in fish I've kept, especially angels. If the fish has been healthy, it usually has gotten over it in time, and I don't remember other fish catching it. I would not worry about it too much, just keep water quality high and feed the best diet you can.

will you upgrade your tank? if those angels get anywhere near adult size, you won't be able to keep any of them in the 80. there are tanks with large angels, I think they are called "locker" tanks, popular in Japan, where lots of angels kept together tend not to fight. kind of like someone mentioned how when you keep a lot of African cichlids, none can really keep a territory, so they don't show a lot of aggression.

here's a link to an article you may or may not have seen. I don't agree with the long term practicality of the concept, but it sounds a bit like what you have set up:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I3/angelfish/Angelfish.htm

I do have a lot of tanks, and it's pretty nuts. There are so many fish I like... that's why I'm always broke. I don't buy shoes or clothes or jewelry, just fish and tank supplies. :)

Here is a link to an article on lymphocystis:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Lymphocystis.html

Basic take home messages:
1) No cure, it has to run its course
2) If you reduce stress, feed well, most fish survive
3) It can be catching, you may want to isolate the infected fish for a few weeks.

[JazzZero]

haha thx, i already knew that w-site (angelfish tank), lol it was what inspirated me to do this hehe and thx from the other website too LisaD.

Campbell take it easy my angels seen to do well in my tank, they are given alot of room, food and good water quality. If they happen to get to adult size i probably would have upgraded by then.

P.S im probably going to upgrade next year.:p :p :p

[coryjac0b]

"Alot" of room in an 80g tank.:confused: that makes zero sense.

for that many large angles in an 80g tank.

just a matter of time before your tank crashes. why spend all that money on fish, and not just do it right in the first place and buy a bigger tank.

i have a 210, and i don't think i would even put more than 2 large angels in it.


p.s. planning to upgrade doesn't make anything better for them right now.

[Ranzan]

that is just not enough room 1 year from now the angels will grow at least an each inch giving them less room then they already have and obviously your water isnt as good as you say if it was you wouldnt be having infections in your tank which could also be caused by the amount of stress on the fish that have on average about 1ft of swimming room

[ccampbell57]

Jazz - I am sorry, but I am a huge angel lover and to see what you are doing with them is very disturbing to me. I currently have 3 angels in my 180 and they are quickly outgrowing that.

I have the plans in place for a 350-500g tank in the next 12 months and will need all of it when these guys grow to maturity.

You say "lots of room"? I have a refugium that is around 80g and it is not enough room even without rocks.

I can't sit back and watch these beautiful fish get treated this way and say "wow that is a great tank and a sweet stock list". To me it is like taking 6 tigers from the jungle and sticking them in a 10x10 cage and saying that they are doing well cause they have great food.

You also say, if they happen to make adult size...what do you mean by that? You buy an expensive fish like an angel and do trial and error on it? If you have such great parameters and surroundings then your fish will have no problems reaching matuity in 2 years.

Your 7 months of experience would tell you that everything is going well. TRUST me, your tank is a ticking time bomb and is setup for a dooms day soon.

[Ranzan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11517880#post11517880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ccampbell57
Jazz - I am sorry, but I am a huge angel lover and to see what you are doing with them is very disturbing to me. I currently have 3 angels in my 180 and they are quickly outgrowing that.

I have the plans in place for a 350-500g tank in the next 12 months and will need all of it when these guys grow to maturity.

You say "lots of room"? I have a refugium that is around 80g and it is not enough room even without rocks.

I can't sit back and watch these beautiful fish get treated this way and say "wow that is a great tank and a sweet stock list". To me it is like taking 6 tigers from the jungle and sticking them in a 10x10 cage and saying that they are doing well cause they have great food.

You also say, if they happen to make adult size...what do you mean by that? You buy an expensive fish like an angel and do trial and error on it? If you have such great parameters and surroundings then your fish will have no problems reaching matuity in 2 years.

Your 7 months of experience would tell you that everything is going well. TRUST me, your tank is a ticking time bomb and is setup for a dooms day soon.

Well put, Thank you

[JazzZero]

Guys take it easy, you guys look like your going to sue me for having to many angels. If you feel that i have too many angels plz do me a favor and look away from my post. Also my question was not wherther i had too many angels in my tank.
So plz stop creditizing me on my angelfishes.

And also my water condition is fine, the french angel i got was a from a new shipment from brazil. When my LFS got the shipment half the stuff were already dead to not enough water. So that may be why my french started to get lymphocystis.

[LisaD]

Jazz, really, no one is trying to flame you. I understand you don't want to get pounded on about the fish. But we do have the experience to know this isn't going to work out - everyone is just trying to help. There is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope some with the hobby - that's the only way it can advance. But you are a beginner, and you are pushing the envelope way far. Even six dwarf angels would be unlikely to make it in your tank.

I do understand growing out juvenile fish in smaller tanks. I have a juvenile koran angel in a 44 and a juvenile niger trigger and blue spotted rabbitfish in a 55. But I also have a 210 in my house, with space dedicated to those fish. Your angels are fairly small now, but within a year, even if not all survive, they will be too crowded in the tank. If you find yourself facing disease issues down the line, it will most likely trace back to stress from having too many angels in too small a tank.

I started in the hobby when I was 15 too, back in the late 70s. I wish I'd had resources like RC and some of the really good beginner books that came out in the last couple years. It would have saved me from losing a lot of fish and money. We have all made mistakes we regret with our tanks. The people that posted are trying to help you avoid making a mistake that from experience, we are sure will happen.

You certainly have the right to do what you want with your tank, but you have a great resource here on RC with people that are happy to help you succeed in the hobby.

Let us know how the angel with lympho does. It's not at all uncommon to see it in stressed (newly imported or shipped) fish. Some books tell you to cut it off with a razor blade. You are better off not messing with it, just leave it alone and give the fish the least stress and best water/diet that you can.

If you want to read an excellent reference on angelfish, check out Scott Michael's book on angelfish and butterfly fish. It's around $30 from Amazon, and well worth the money:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890087696/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Another good reference is New Marine Aquarium, by Mike Paletta. Even with 30 years in the hobby, I find it useful. It has beautiful pictures and is well written, and under $20:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idproduct~BKNMA.html

Besides experience, there is no substitute for doing thorough research in this hobby - these books are a good source of information from experienced authors. I hope you don't get soured by people expressing their well intentioned concerns and opinions, and continue to participate in RC.

[ccampbell57]

Lymphocystis is a chronic viral infection effecting susceptible fish resulting in the cauliflower or ward-like appearance of lesions on the afflicted fish’s fins and even the body. Lymphocystis does not have to be a death sentence, however, and, in fact, it usually is not. Many fish with this condition may remain symptom-free; others will suffer significant disfigurement if the condition is not adequately addressed. Most typically, the effected fish will have minor spot symptoms that may come and go depending on adequacy of environment and food.

Lymphocystis growths seen on fish are not the virus itself, but the results of the virus. As the virus affects the connective tissues of the fish, cells are malformed, resulting in the production of skin cells that are grossly enlarged. This is the visible nodules seen on afflicted fish.

How is lymphocystis transmitted?
Lymphocystis is transmitted through direct contact of the fish with the virus in the water or by fish picking at the nodules on diseased fish. Water becomes a transmission medium when infected fish are introduced into the aquarium and the virus is released from the growths. The good news, however, is that the virus, while common, is not necessarily highly contagious. While one fish may be severely diseased, others in the aquaria never suffer ill-effects. The reason for this is because the virus affecting one fish may only be able to infect other same-species or closely related species of fish due to the DNA coding of any specific virus.

Treatment
Quarantine in a well-established hospital tank while the growths are present is the safest way to avoid contamination of the aquaria. However, if the quarantine is not well-established and minimally appropriate for the fish, then the diseased fish will not do well in quarantine, and may worsen. Infected fish can also be addressed within the display, with [low] risk of infecting other fish and with higher risk of the originally afflicted fish being re-infected. Since the disease, like any virus, is opportunistic with a weakened host, fish that are mishandled, not receiving adequate nutrition or reside in poor living environments are much more susceptible then well-established, highly cared for fish.

While the virus needs to run its course (approx. 1 month), effective treatment is fairly simple and involves basic husbandry practices that should be in place even without the presence or need to address lymphocystis. Treatment and care entails providing your aquarium and fish with excellent water conditions, a good environment, a tranquil community setting, and quality nutrition that addresses the specific needs of the afflicted fish. The addition of quality supplements such as Zoecon and fresh garlic is likely to enhance the fish’s chances for full-recovery. There is no medicinal treatment and attempting to treat with a product could well worsen the situation, especially if medications are dumped into the display aquaria.

As with any primary disease, secondary infections by bacteria, fungus or even parasites can result in weakened, sick fish. The hobbyist needs to be mindful of the development of secondary infections, which could be significantly more perilous to the fish than the lymphocystis and will require the removal of the fish to a quarantine for isolation and treatment.