Ph problems with instant ocean

[a1amap]

Every time I make up water and use IO or IO Reef Crystals My Ph is low. The Ph of the RO/DI is 7. After I make the new water my PH is 8.09 and I have to add buffer to get it to 8.2. Does anyone else have this issue with IO? I hate adding all the extra buffer to just raise the PH only to find the tanks PH is at 8.

If your using another salt, do you have this problem? I am ready to switch.

I tested with a digital meter and a seachem test kit.

[a2fire2i]

I wouldnt worry to much of the waters PH being 8.09, nor of your tanks PH being 8. I have never tested the PH of new saltwater, but I am using Red Sea an my tank is around 8-8.2..

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

[tat2tillidie]

man my ph stays @ 8 i bring it up then it goes down. it never stays @ 8.2 and my substrate is new and i use instant ocean so i dont know if its the salt

[a1amap]

Just figured it should start out closer to 8.2 vs having to add a lot of buffer to get it to 8.2. I understand that there are swings and around a ph of 8 I should be fine, but the night swing brings it down to 7.6. I keep a reverse light on my macro to try and offset the swing. I would rather start around 8.2 - 8.3 and not have to add any buffer. Even then if I ended up with the tank at 8 at least I didn't add any buffer.

Hey ken, whats the name of that box of salt you rave about? Do you know the starting PH when first mixed?

I plan on mixing the remaining IO salt with another brand to try and start with a higher PH.

If you use another brand of salt and test the PH could you post the brand and the starting PH? Also if you know the PH of your RO/DI could you post that as well?

[ronert]

just throw some baking soda in it

[a1amap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11324053#post11324053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ronert
just throw some baking soda in it


Not quite.

"Recipe #1, Part 2: The Alkalinity Part

Spread baking soda (594 grams or about 2 ¼ cups) on a baking tray and heat in an ordinary oven at 300°F for one hour to drive off water and carbon dioxide. Overheating is not a problem, either with higher temperatures or longer times. Dissolve the residual solid in enough water to make 1 gallon total. This dissolution may require a fair amount of mixing. Warming it speeds dissolution. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). I prefer to use baked baking soda rather than washing soda in this recipe as baking soda from a grocery store is always food grade, while washing soda may not have the same purity requirements. Arm & Hammer brand is a fine choice. Be sure to NOT use baking powder. Baking powder is a different material that often has phosphate as a main ingredient."

Taken from (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php)

This would help the alkalinity not PH

[kaptken]

Well, Al, I cant remember having tested my new salt water mix in many years. but since you mentioned it, mine, that has been mixed for a week in a barrel with a constant air stone and power head on, tests out at SG 1.025, 8.0PH. but then i tested the alk and it is low at 7 DKH. the air stone will bring down the alk over time. so before water changes i add a bit more baking soda, and extra calcium and MgCl.

I have used the same Marine Enterpise Inc, CRYSTAL SEA MARINEMIX for the past 7 years.

http://www.meisalt.com/products/prod_csmm.html

no problems. like most salts its low on the magnesium, some on the calcium, and a little extra buffer never hurt. Randy Holmes uses IO, and routinely bumps the Ca, Mg and alk in a new mix too to bring it up to par.

and then i just tested the tank. SG 1.026, PH 8.1 and DKH 12. so everything is happy. just keep your DKH between 8 and 12 and PH wont be a problem.

if you want a stronger PH effect, you bake the baking soda to convert it to sodium carbonate, per the recipe:

"The baking drives some of the carbon dioxide out of the baking soda, and raises its pH as well as its alkalinity."

it makes it a more potent base and more soluable for the mix. plain baking soda, like i use still keeps the tank above 8. I'll have to test it in the morning before the lights come on to see if it had dropped below 8.

[a1amap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11324053#post11324053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ronert
just throw some baking soda in it


So your saying just throw some Baking soda in it!:mixed:


Still I would think brand new salt water mix would test at PH 8.2 and besides cal or mag should test proper my mistake. Ken what are you using to test alk

[a1amap]

Added some straight to the new water. (Not baked) will test the Alk and PH tomorrow after it is aerated.

[mbbuna]

the PH of sea water is controlled by the amount of CO2 in the water and the surrounding air. yes, if you add an acid like vinegar or something it will drop the PH but as soon as the acid is neutralized you will be right back where you started from. the same go's with buffer. most buffers that you buy (to raise PH)are just sodium carbonate (baked baking soda or washing soda). you add them and your PH will go up but immediately the water and surrounding air will try to get back into equalibreum in regards to CO2 content. regular baking soda will actually drive down PH because it sodium bicarbonate. when you bake baking soda what you are doing is driving off excess CO2. so when you add it to your tank you displace some of the CO2 and the PH go's up.

chasing an ideal PH # is futile, especially using buffers. what you will end up doing is driving your ALK through the roof. if you want your tank PH higher try dripping a little kalk or run a tube so your skimmer get fresh outside air.

[a1amap]

This is pretty cool. I am going to get a mag test kit and a new calcium test kit. I have an alk and ph test kits that are good. Going to get the tank balanced. Link (http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html)

Ken if you call me a 3 in the morning, your lucky I remember anything.

[ronert]

Al;

If you're going to 'balance the tank', concentrate on alk first. As Ken said, just keep your DKH between 8 and 12 and PH wont be a problem.

I've found if you try to chase Ca and ALK at the same time, you'll end up with high Ca. I read somewhere WHY that is, and all the talk of free ions, calcificaton, and whatnot made my head hurt. The bottom line was to concentrate on ALK first, then pull the Ca into line afterwards.

Also, as Chris said, the PH of sea water is controlled by the amount of CO2 in the water and the surrounding air.
Chris' post and the link provided by a2fire2i are good reads.

(BEGIN SHAMELESS PLUG FOR ONE OF MY FAVORITE BEERS)
Keep in mind your tank is in the basement. I think you could expect CO2 levels to be higher (on a relative scale) in your basement than in the rest of you house. Why? CO2 is a 'heavy' molecule, and will tend to settle out to the basement.

Enough to matter? I'm not sure. Do I have evidence of this? Not really - just anecdotal evidence: I just moved a tank from one floor down to another, and it seems to tend to have a lower pH. But there are other things that might be at work other than the elevation within my house (and likely are).

Actually, now that I think about it, if you're chasing a CO2 issue, my money is on the gas you charge the kegs with ... :D ... you might need to switch to Guinness and use nitrogen before we invade next week.
(END SHAMELESS PLUG FOR ONE OF MY FAVORITE BEERS)

- ted

[kaptken]

This is dangerous.

Yous guys comments are making me think. I have been getting lazy and lackadaisical with my DIY buffer the past year. I have not been baking my soda, or pre-mixing a buffer solution. instead, i have been just sprinkling plain baking soda into the sump for daily buffer. true it has worked fine to keep the tank at about PH 8 and not less. But the small drop in PH from happy sea water of PH 8.3 is probably enough to retard calcification in my acro corals and such.

I have posted articles about the trend of ocean acidification due to rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere from all of us burning fossil fuels. lower PH means less coral growth. below 8 and they run into a road block. current oceans are about 8.16 i believe, down from 8.3 100 years ago. So i spose the same would hold true in our tanks.

like Chris says, CO2 has a bad influence on PH. it disolves in water and becomes carbolic acid, which nutralizes alkalinity in the sea water. or our tanks. thus lowering the PH, and DKH.

so , as an experiment, i got 4 pounds of baking soda in the oven right now, baking out the moisture and CO2 , for my buffer again. i will just have to put up with its slower disolving than straight baking soda. the extra PH boost might just be the thing to get my coral growth back to its previous fast rate. I used to use Sea Chem Reef Builder and Advantage Calcium, which had the proper mix of buffer and PH booster and soluable calcium. and coral growth was really good. I have been wondering why i havent acheived that level since i switched to DIY 2-part. PH control at 8.3 rather than 8.0 may be the ticket for stoney corals.

my DKH with plain baking soda sticks around 8.0. but corals do grow and deposit calcium better at 8.3-8.4.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[a1amap]

Wow! When I talked to you last night at 3 in the morning (did I mention 3 in the morning), when you gave me a chemistry lesson, I never dreamed the teacher would be slipping.

I baked a pound of soda today and added some to my make up water. Going to raise the Alk to 4meq/L or if you prefer, about 11dkh. I don't want to raise it in on big shot because it will also raise the PH. Slow but steady.

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11332202#post11332202 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaptken
i will just have to put up with its slower disolving than straight baking soda.

just heat the water up some and it will dissolve right in;)

[Gordonious]

Al, have you read a little bit more on the chemistry in your tank since your first post. Before it seemed as if you were just ignoring alkalinity and concentrating on pH.

As Ted was saying I think you have things backwards especially if your worried about pH swinging.

Sometimes it's easy to think of our water parameters as just a color on a chart or a number on a meter, but if you really want to understand what's going on or fix something that's wrong it's best you try to figure out what is really going on chemistry wise.

I forget do you have a pin point pH probe? I hate little pH test kits. I have about 4-5 pH test kits of different types, from different companies and they all sit in a drawer in my closet.(Also not a single one of them agrees with the others) Currently I own two pin point meters and three probes. A digital probe is the way to go to figure out what is really going on, pin point is just the brand I have experience with.

[a1amap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11332404#post11332404 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gordonious
Al, have you read a little bit more on the chemistry in your tank since your first post. Before it seemed as if you were just ignoring alkalinity and concentrating on pH.

As Ted was saying I think you have things backwards especially if your worried about pH swinging.

Sometimes it's easy to think of our water parameters as just a color on a chart or a number on a meter, but if you really want to understand what's going on or fix something that's wrong it's best you try to figure out what is really going on chemistry wise.

I forget do you have a pin point pH probe? I hate little pH test kits. I have about 4-5 pH test kits of different types, from different companies and they all sit in a drawer in my closet.(Also not a single one of them agrees with the others) Currently I own two pin point meters and three probes. A digital probe is the way to go to figure out what is really going on, pin point is just the brand I have experience with.

Non stop for the last couple of days. Never in my reading did anything mention a constant dose of Soda to keep alk steady. I figured I did a once a week or bi-monthly water change which would keep the alk in line. I re-read some articles I saved years ago. Wish they made a meter for alk, but I have a milwaukie ph meter.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t81/a1amap/75%20Gallon%20In%20Wall/SM101.jpg

Professor Ken gave me a cram session at 3 in the morning. Between that and after reading all I could find, I think I could could pass chemistry 101 again.

[kaptken]

Not yet, it gets worse.

Remember, the state of the salt water is a complex balance of salinity, temperature, alkalinity, and calcium, and magnesium and PH and DKH. All in balance at any particular point of time and conditions. one effects the others . it's kinda like trying to sit on a water bed without sinking in at any one point. BALANCE!!

Reef tanks ar all about the big , overall picture of conditions. everything has to work together.

Meanwhile i just added my first dose of really baked(at 400 degrees for 90 minutes), baking soda for tonight. i will check to see if the PH rises over the next few days. and if so, if there is a noticable change in coral growth.

I did notice that when i sprinkled the baked powder carbonate into the sump, it made precipitate flakes in the water until stirred. no doubt from the higher PH, locally

[a1amap]

As of today I am at 3meq/L or about 8.4dkh. As Alkalinty has been raising the PH has also, I am sitting at 8.1. Last week the tank was at 7.76PH.

[Gordonious]

Sounds good Al. Most things will live in 8.1. Natural reefs are a bit higher, but your headed in the right direction and not moving too fast.

Have you took the Reef Chem quiz that Randy Holmes Farley created? I was pretty proud of myself the first time I took it, but it has been a while. I was going to try to post the URL for ya, but I couldn't find it quickly and I am supposed to be writing a term paper that was due last week. :-/

[a1amap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11325438#post11325438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
the PH of sea water is controlled by the amount of CO2 in the water and the surrounding air...chasing an ideal PH # is futile, especially using buffers. what you will end up doing is driving your ALK through the roof. if you want your tank PH higher try dripping a little kalk or run a tube so your skimmer get fresh outside air.

After adding a lot of soda my alk is 4 meq/l or about 11.2dkh so I am set there. But my PH is about 8.02 on average. After reading this and a litte more research I ran a line from the skimmer input to the outside door where I put a small hole to feed fresh air. My tank backs up to the water heater and the house gas heater. I wonder where it gets co2 from!! Will test again tomorrow.