Why are fish dieing

[will_w]

Okay, here is the problem. I recently set my son's 30 cube back up after a major meltdown due to a prolonged power outage a few months back. I used new Arag-alive sand, got a big man made rock (the one's from Atlantis) and some live rock out of my 120. I used water out of my 120 to speed up the cycling process. Waited a good amount of time and slowly added fish. I added a perc. clown, a dragon wrasse and a flame angel. I have also added a frogspawn, some zoos and a few shrooms. Everything was going swimmingly.

Then I added a condi anemonae (sp). The condi was doing fine for a few days then he started heading south. He started to melt away part of his body while some of his arms looked fine. A few days later I pulled him out as his condition was degrading. I did about a 20% water change (as I often do), to make sure that his decaying wouldn't impact the tank to badly. Then the wrasse starts acting wierd. Just laying around. A few days later, he kicks the bucket. All water tests look great. No amonia, nitrites or nitrates. Temperature is good (I monitor it with a computer hooked to a controller), no big fluctuations. Ph is good (about 8.3).

A few more days pass and the perc kicks the bucket. Now, a couple of days later the flame is starting to lose color and is looking very lathargic. I have no clue what else to check. This is very frustrating, and what is worse, I can't even get the flame out to put him in my 120's fuge because he is hiding in the rock.

I should also mention that the frogspawn, zoos, and shrooms look fine.

Does anyone have any ideas on what can be causing this sudden death spree? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[twon8]

how long has it been set up?

[surfnvb7]

how long did you wait before adding fish?

what kind of time period are we talking about, when you started adding fish and corals? (everything over a couple of days? weeks? months?)

are you sure your son isn't adding anything "extra" to the tank? i've heard stories of kids adding their lunches to the tank b/c "nemo looked hungry", or something to that extent (maybe even another chemical other than human food).

but it really does sound like you triggered some sort of mini cycle after the anemone died. what kind of test kits are you using?

other than that....i dunno, i'm not really familiar with any anemones if they release toxins when they die.....

[J. Montgomery]

Yep, a timeline will help to sort out some of the possibilities. From what you've told us, I think the man made rock is the most suspicious sounding ingredient. Maybe it's leaching an unexpected toxin into the water (totally grasping at straws here, but . . . ).

Or maybe the fish are passing around a disease/parasite and the anemone was unrelated. How is the cleanup crew doing? I was under the impression that corals and invertebrates were more sensitive to water problems than fish (in general).

[curekar]

Are you runnning carbon? I read a lot about anemones when I had one, they are nasty things when they die, read many accounts of them taking the entire tank with them. When mine died it took my mandarin - and I also removed it before it was completely gone.

The reccomendation from Bob Fenner of WWM is to do a 50% water change and run carbon to get rid of the toxins as soon as your anemone dies and don't let it go to the point of dissintegrating - get it out as soon as you are sure it is not going to recover.

The timeframe seems a little long to me, but if you are not running carbon then the fish are still swimming with those toxins.

Craig

[Charlie Davidson]

Will. sorry to hear about fish problems.. We only test for a very few things in the water, even though sometimes it seems like alot.. :eek:
I agree with Craig.. huge water change and carbon
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BTW, I have never used the new rock, but the stuff looks great :)
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:lol: For some of the oldies here, the only aneome I ever kept alive for a long time was "Mildred the majohno". She got so big, she over ran the corner of my 125g and was moved to local store for fun,,,,

If you want, I can send a Fluval 105 filter to Richmond Sunday, with Connie.. Its good for running carbon and other stuff, very quiet...

[bradlyallen1]

I have had the same thing happen with the catalyst being a BTA that seemed to dissolve into pieces overnight. 3 fish died in short order following the BTA despite big water changes. I have also had a BTA completely disappear...vanish! I pulled all the rocks apart but he was nowhere to be found. I am now on my third and final anenome (because my wife think it is "neat").

[will_w]

okay here is the timeline that was requested. The tank has been set up for about 2 months. I waited about 2 weeks before adding the first fish. Note that I used established live rock in addition to the man made stuff and used water out of an established tank. Each of the other fist were added in about 1-2 week increments.

I am using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits for amonia, nitrites and nitrates. I started to doubt there reliability so I took a sample in to the LFS with the same results all 0. PH is measured with a reefkeeper 2 controller that was recently calibrated and verified using a testing kit. The temperature is measured using the RK2 and two additonal digital thermometers. I tracked fluctuations in temperature by attaching my laptop to the controller and logging all of the stats. No big fluctuations.

I started running carbon in a HOT Magnum filter after the anemonae croaked.

All of my clean up crew looks fine. About 6 snails, 6 hermits. I did have a cleaner shrimp die early on, but I do not associate the two events as this happened a couple of weeks prior to the anemonae dieing.

I also checked for phosphates (0 reading). I have done a few water changes thoughout the events. In fact I changed out another 5 gallons this morning and will change 5 more this afternoon.

The one thing that I though of was that maybe I am having a little electrical leak in the tank. The tank is on a GFCI and the only electrical that is in the tank is a Tunze powerhead and the heater. Everything else is external. I do not feel any voltage when I put my hand in the tank and I feel like the corals and clean up crew would also be impacted by that. I guess I will put a grounding probe in if I can figure out where to ground it at.

I think that is the info everyone asked for. Now please put your thinking caps on. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[JJAPHIPPS22]

I had a similar problem early on with a bio-cube 29, I then added a grounding probe seem to straighten things out (I could not feel stray voltage with my hand either) I now run grounding probes in all of my tanks.

[will_w]

What did you attach to your grounding probe to?

[Hopeful Reefer]

Most of the grounding probes I've seen plug in to a wall outlet...current then exits the tank via the ground on the wall outlet...

[JJAPHIPPS22]

you just put the grounding probe into the tank, sump etc. and when you plug it into your receptacle it has two plastic prongs and the one grouding prong is stainless steel (i think) that is all their is to it.

[will_w]

The one I currently have just has a connection to go to a screw. I guess I will pick up a couple of new ones for my tanks. Maybe that will help.

[rick s]

Hi Will,

Sorry to hear about your problems.
Have you measured salinity lately? With a refractometer?

[will_w]

Yes, I am running about 26-28 on salinity using a refractometer. I know that is a little high, but I have always run it a little high with no adverse affects.

[Neptune777]

Will,
I am sorry to hear about your losses...it can be very frustrating when fish start dropping off.

Since it was mentioned (and I am the guy making the Rock for Atlantis) I can assure you that there is nothing in the rock that can leach out to kill the fish. It is made with completely inert ingredients and has been thoroughly tested to not harm livestock (they use the same stuff to rehabilitate real Reefs around the world (Reef Balls)). If it was a toxin I would think the corals and other inverts would be affected as well. If anyone wants further clarification or has questions feel free to ask me.....(don't want to break RC rules so please talk with me at info@deepwaterrock.com )

Will, what was the last fish added and which one was the first to die? Since it is only fish dying I would bet it is a type of pathogen making its way through your tank. The reason I think this is toxins would most likely affect more than the fish, and your water parameters look good.

[J. Montgomery]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11278493#post11278493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I am the guy making the Rock for Atlantis
Cool! Has anyone local been using these rock yet? After I posted the comment about the rocks, the pathogen idea popped into my head. I think that one is more likely . . . though it sounds like other have had problems with anemones taking out fish when they die.

[will_w]

Neptune, I was not implying that the rock is the cause. I really like the rock and appreciate the great look it gives the tank. I was just giving the full contents of the tank with anything that might be considered "different".

The fish are dieing off in opposite order of them being introduced. The wrasse was introduced most recently and died first. He had been in the tank a couple of weeks. The Percula died next and he had been added prior to the wrasse. The flame is now on the decline and was added first.

I have a small uv sterilizer on order, this may help to get rid of any live organisms that could be causing the problem.

Are there any other chemical tests that could likely indicate any problems with the water?

[Neptune777]

No problem Will ( :) ) I was just chiming in because of the question Josh brought up about the rock in his earlier post. I just wanted to clarify for folks so that my product doesn't get a bad rap due to this issue you are having. Perhaps it would be better that I didn't say anything but I stand by the product and guarantee that it will not kill fish or any other livestock. (Most of Atlantis tanks have the rock in them including the huts in their fish rack, and the Atlantis Logo rock running with fish and inverts for several months now).

As far as the order of death that makes sense to me. The wrasse (as the possible original carrier) would have had the pathogen longer than any fish in the tank and would most likely be the first to die. All the others would be exposed and die off according to their ability to fight it off. Of course this is purely speculative and the only guess I have at the moment.

[will_w]

I understand what your saying on the pathogen but the wrasse looked great for a while before any problems started. I think the most likely source of any pathogen would have been the condi anemonae since he was introduced just a few days before the fish deaths and he was the first to go. I just had not heard of any pathogens that would spread from a condi to a fish.

[tmz]

Take a look at this thread,it mioght be relevant.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11276835#post11276835

A few thoughts.
I would not move any of those fish to my main display or connected refugium untill I was certain that I had erradicated the disease or ruled out disease. Second, I would check for cryptocaryon irritans "ich" and amyloodinium"marrine" velvelt. Third I would consider flukes.
If you can't decide wether it is flukes or ich or velvet. You could remove the inverts and treat with hypo salinity for the ich and velvet and add medication such as prazi-pro or formalin for the flukes.

[Neptune777]

Wow tmz,
I never knew how common Flukes were and how much they can pose a real health problem on our fish. Thanks for sharing that link! I wonder if a Hypo treatment work on them as well or instead of the Prazipro?

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11279170#post11279170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Wow tmz,
I never knew how common Flukes were and how much they can pose a real health problem on our fish. Thanks for sharing that link! I wonder if a Hypo treatment work on them as well or instead of the Prazipro? Well, as I noted on the link I just lost a nice filamented flasher wrasse(reading the signs and symptoms posted was erie since they were exactly what I had seen. Now the butterfly that's in the same qt tank has it(I think) but now I know and started formalin last night. He looks cleaner today. I don't have prazi pro yet but if it is as safe as advertised I will start using it along with hyposalinity for all new specimens in qt.

[will_w]

Well, the angel fish is now swimming in the big ocean in the sky... :( He turned very white prior to dieing. I am now treating the tank for any parasites and have a ground probe that I will be putting in. A little late I guess. I sure would have liked to have know what the culprit was. I think to avoid any further problems, I am going to do the following.

Continue treating with para guard for 3-4 days.
Do a massive water change 50-70%
then run carbon and a uv steriler for a while (maybe a week)
Try it all over again.

If anyone has any other suggestions please share.

[tmz]

Turning white could be bacteria, velvet or flukes,in my opinion. What is paraguard? Incidentally, I run my uv sterilizer's 24/7 and have been doing so for over a year.

[J. Montgomery]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11282178#post11282178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by will_w
Try it all over again.

If anyone has any other suggestions please share.
Wait for as long as you can before adding any new fish.

[will_w]

Tom, Para Guard is a Sea Chem Product. Here is a link to the info on it.
Seachem Para Guard Info (http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/ParaGuard.html)

I run a UV sterlizer 24/7 on my 120, but have never run one on my 30s. I will for now on.

How long do you think is a reasonable time period prior to adding more fish? (after I complete the steps I outlined above). I figure two weeks should be okay...

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11284620#post11284620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by will_w
Tom, Para Guard is a Sea Chem Product. Here is a link to the info on it.
Seachem Para Guard Info (http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/ParaGuard.html)

I run a UV sterlizer 24/7 on my 120, but have never run one on my 30s. I will for now on.

How long do you think is a reasonable time period prior to adding more fish? (after I complete the steps I outlined above). I figure two weeks should be okay...

With a large water change I think 2 weeks would be good...if you can wait longer it would be better. Did the other fish show any other visible signs (discoloration, heavy breathing, Ich, bloating, spots etc?) before they passed?

Make sure you slowly move water through the sterilizer to increase the dwell time...the longer the dwell the better the sterilization. Run the highest wattage UV you can.

[tmz]

If you are treating the tank,Iwould wait 4 weeks if I could muster the patience. If cryptocaryon was in the tank and it is not effectively treated, most would say leave the tank fishless for 6 weeks.Some cryptocaron cysts have remained viable for up to 72 days.

[will_w]

Nice, a tank full of water...... ;) I guess I will not need to feed as much :0

[tmz]

:rollface: Sorry about that. Happy reefing.