Setting up a frag tank, Lighting advice.

[westcoastreef]

Well I am starting a frag tank and wanted to get some lighting advice. The tank is gong to be 16x16x12 inches high. I was thinking about one of the viper clamp on Metal halides, but wanted to see if anyone had other advice. Wattage advice would help too. 70 vs. 150watts. Hopefully keeping both zoa's and SPS's

[westcoastreef]

Also what do you guys think about that size, I am trying to plumb it to a table in my bedroom for entertainment?

[surfnvb7]

I'm not sure about those viper clip on MH's......isn't that kinda similar to those coralife models? i heard allot of problems with build quality on those.

in your decision on what wattage and what type of bulb to get (DE or SE), I'd strongly consider what your bulb choices are in each of those categories.

good 70w bulbs are hard to find......if any. which leaves 150w......which has a few good bulbs out there (do they make pheonix 14k in 150w?).

you should also consider 175w SE. maybe an iwasaki 14k bulb which is a perfect frag tank bulb IMO due to its white color and huge amount of PAR. you might be able to save some money by getting a mogul retro kit and building a canopy out of a couple slats of wood instead of an expensive 150w DE pendent.

but if this tank isn't going to be plumbed to anything else, and not have a sump.....a DE pendant hanging a foot or two over an open top the tank may be your best bet to make sure the tank doesn't over heat.

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11256888#post11256888 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
Also what do you guys think about that size, I am trying to plumb it to a table in my bedroom for entertainment?

oops, didn't see this part. IMO 10g is pretty small.....also its tricky to drill if you want to plumb it due to the thin glass.

if i were going to do a stand alone frag tank w/ a MH above it.......I'd go with an AGA 20g-long.......with that 175w SE mogul and a iwasaki 14k bulb on electronic ballast......JMO though, I've had my eye on doing this set up for quite a while.

[westcoastreef]

Oh its going to be plumbed out of my 90 gallon system, I really just wanted to keep the light system contained and compact.

[westcoastreef]

Also, I am a little worried a 175 is to bright for a tank thats only 12 inches deep, although the bulb options are extremely better

[J. Montgomery]

I've been contemplating the same thing. I have a 10 gallon tank that I'd like to put MH over, but between heat and cost . . . I'm still running 15W fluorescent over it.

Personally, I don't think that the 70 and 150W units are worth the money. You may be able to find a better deal in the used equipment forum, but they're definitely not worth $300. Its wack that you could probably get one or two 250W MH for that much.

I also think that 20L would make a better frag tank. I'd replace my 10 with a 20L if I could get it past the g/f.

[westcoastreef]

What about t-5's on a 20 long, would that be enough light for sps's? Or could I just split (2) 2 foot t-5's from my icecap 660 which has room for 2 more bulbs?

[westcoastreef]

Does anyone know the specs on a 20 long?

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11257039#post11257039 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
Also, I am a little worried a 175 is to bright for a tank thats only 12 inches deep, although the bulb options are extremely better

i had a 175w over a 20g-long last year (used XM 15k and then a XM 20k)......and IMO it wasn't enough light....although i could keep zoas and sps in there happy.....things just wouldnt grow as well as they did in my main tank (prob due to the crappy bulbs I used).

the year before, my g/f ran the same 175w MH w/ XM 20k over a regular 15g tank (exact same footprint as a 20g-high except not as tall). and she had no heat problems by having a 10g sump, and all the corals loved it.

the Iwasaki 14k is definitely BRIGHT....the sps would love it.....but probably not the zoas in a shallow tank unless you can get them shaded on the sides. with the XM 20k, zoas would love it.....sps color will look great......but VERY slow growth IMO.

if you are trying to save money....going the 175w retro route is the best option IMO like what Josh is saying.....pendents are waaaaaay over priced for what you get. you can save money by getting just a regular spider reflector and building a cheap canopy with some wood from lowes for under $20.

if money is no big deal, i think DE and SE pendent will both run you about $300 with everything included. of course, if you want a better bulb that what it comes with you'll have to buy it too.

i would go with something like this SE pendant w/ Icecap 175w ballast.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ICE-175PEN&Category_Code=Icecapr

then get this bulb.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=14K-175IW&Category_Code=mh-175w

retro's are cheaper though, and come with a bigger reflector

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ICE175RK&Category_Code=Icecapr

here is a DE pendant w/ everything included and wired (crappy bulb IMO)

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PFO-HQI150ESYS&Category_Code=PFOp

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11257152#post11257152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
Does anyone know the specs on a 20 long?

all-glass 20g long is 30x12x12

[Charlie Davidson]

Does hood have to sit on top? Can you hang - a fixture from wall- or ceiling? ( solves heat issues) ( humidity problems are still there)
BTW :D 400w unless you go 250 HQI (you will wish you had- I promise)

[Charlie Davidson]

Sorry,..... To all..... I had too!! Devil made me do it! :lol: bedroom entertainment?

[J. Montgomery]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11258087#post11258087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Charlie Davidson
bedroom entertainment?
I was wondering the same thing. I think of bedroom entertainment as something else . . . :thumbsup:

[Charlie Davidson]

If it hangs from ceiling, all the more fun doing whatever ( $#@%!&^^%$)
OK, back to regular scheulded program..

[Charlie Davidson]

:eek: some- one save me! my last post- I can not edit-- :)
And I am sure "we" would like to get back on topic..

[westcoastreef]

Um yeah, If you didn't know apparently fish tanks are a natural Afrodisiac. But yeah i have stucko walls and ceilings, so hanging isn't an option. So maybe a 175 Metal halide on a 20 long would be a good setup? I can make a custom hood and it will be running on my teco 20 so no heat issues here.

[Charlie Davidson]

:)
If I was to install a 16x16x12" I would be thinking about a Lunumarc (or something like that)
IMHO, if you want sps... it would be 250-400..
175 offers so opertunites, for softes-- no pun intended!

[surfnvb7]

weston, i think you'll do fine with that. even with a spider reflector or pendent reflector like i showed in the links i posted above.

i wouldn't put a lumenarc on a 30" long tank.....as there will be huge dark spots on the ends of the tank. but a PFO parallel reflector may work nicely on a 30" tank.

if you go with the 175w Iwasaki 14k bulb, you should be able to handle ANY sps. if anything, you may need to shade some things away from the intensity directly under the bulb. esspecially zoas and lps.

XM20k on 175w (magnetic ballast).....will keep most things alive and growing slowly.....and would be fine as a temporary holding area harder acros......but i wouldn't want to keep them in there long term (i.e. try to grow them over a couple of months). things like digi's, caps, milli's, birdsnests, other monti's should be fine growing in there.

but more light is always better than not enough....you can always add a screen over the top of the tank if the iwasaki is too bright.

[J. Montgomery]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11259005#post11259005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Charlie Davidson
175 offers so opertunites, for softes-- no pun intended!
Yeah, you're not going to be picking up any ladies by asking them if they're interested in going to the bedroom and seeing your softies . . . or crabs.

[Charlie Davidson]

my Tank, 12" deep has 1- 175w, 20k (14?} ---- 20" over my tank (center) but it is very, very dim. ---------------- it is meant for dawn and dusk.------ it may "hold Acrcos"-- But-IMHO (NO way, for long)
I have 2 -400w 20k xm for main lighing.. (20" oFF)
But--- I am going to try 400w 14k ushios ASAP. (10k xm's were just too white)

[J. Montgomery]

20" over the tank? No wonder its dim. With my two 175W over a 55 gallon, SPS grow on the bottom of the tank.

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11260851#post11260851 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by J. Montgomery
Yeah, you're not going to be picking up any ladies by asking them if they're interested in going to the bedroom and seeing your softies . . . or crabs.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/hokieatrain7/lol_hitting.gif

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/hokieatrain7/notworthy.gif http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/hokieatrain7/notworthy.gif http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/hokieatrain7/notworthy.gif

[Charlie Davidson]

"clam tank" Viewed from above.. REAL P.I.A.

[cybrsufr]

I am running a 400W 20K BLV over my 20 Gallon Frag Tank but thats just because I had it around. A 175 or even a 250 would be a better choice in both functionality and cost. Bulbs are plentiful, great lighting for all corals, and not a lot of heat if you hang it in a pendant.


<b><font size="3"><font color="sienna">WreckDiver</font> </b>
<i><font size="1"><font color="teal">aka: CyBrSuFr</font> </font> </i> <br>
<i><font size="1"><font color="red">Click the little red house for the latest tank picts</font> </font> </i> <br>

[westcoastreef]

So here is were I have decided to do so far. I am either going to do a 15 or 20 long, with a mini pendant reflector, double ended 250 watt Metal halide. I am leaning toward a Phoenix 14K due to the fact that they are essentially an Aquaconnect light bulb, and putting it on an ARO ballast. What are some of your thought's on this set up. I think it will me nice and compact, allowing direct wattage for the sps's and some indirect lighting for the zoa's.

[westcoastreef]

So here is were I have decided to do so far. I am either going to do a 15 or 20 long, with a mini pendant reflector, double ended 250 watt Metal halide. I am leaning toward a Phoenix 14K due to the fact that they are essentially an Aquaconnect light bulb, and putting it on an ARO ballast. What are some of your thought's on this set up? I think it will me nice and compact, allowing direct wattage for the sps's and some indirect lighting for the zoa's.

[surfnvb7]

phoenix 14k is the only DE bulb i'd ever consider running.....if you run it on an ARO it will be pretty blue...but not as blue as the XM20k. if you run it on an HQI it will be mostly white with a hint of blue.

although, i seriously doubt you can compare it to an aquaconnect bulb. the SE aquaconnect 14k's are in a different league basically b/c the PAR is so high.

[westcoastreef]

I know, I just ordered my Aquaconnects for my main tank, they should be here on thursday.....can't wait, I made the mistake of buying XM 15K's, the only bad advice I have gotten. So would you think that I would get better growth out of a HQI? Also any return pump thoughts for the tank?

[westcoastreef]

I am really not concerned with the color coming out of the bulb in my frag tank as mush as trying to get a good growth rate.

[J. Montgomery]

250W over a 20 gallon tank, you're going to get a lot of growth regardless of specific bulbs and ballasts.

[westcoastreef]

ya know, I went from asking about a 70 watt or 150, now I am convinced that the mini 250 is the way to go, really as cheap as the rest too.

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11271503#post11271503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
I know, I just ordered my Aquaconnects for my main tank, they should be here on thursday.....can't wait, I made the mistake of buying XM 15K's, the only bad advice I have gotten. So would you think that I would get better growth out of a HQI? Also any return pump thoughts for the tank?

are you going to run the aquaconnects on electronic ballasts? (thats what is recommended)

HQI drives the bulbs harder than electronics. but as josh said.......250w is allot of light over a 20g tank.......so you got plenty IMO.

[westcoastreef]

Yeah the Aquaconnect's are going to be on electronic ballasts..I think I might go with the ARO for the price, and with 250 watts it is alot of light no matter what so a little blue might look nice.

[westcoastreef]

Any Ideas on how much flow on a return pump for this small of a tank?

[surfnvb7]

twon8 would have a better idea than me. i've only used Magdrive pumps before, as i don't have that much head to deal with in the plumbing.

but the best way IMO......is to get 1 return pump for both tanks....and then use a "T" and a ball valve to plumb it to both tanks....then you can adjust the flow to the frag tank via the ball valve.

doing it this way just saves energy.....and cuts down on heat the pumps generate.

[Charlie Davidson]

May not be alot of help--- (for so many years now) I have only owned 100g plus tanks with slumps -- up to 6 mths ago..
IMHO, on my 50g- 30g slump... a mag 3 is too much and mag 2 was OK.. I am still testing the mag 3 - plan to pipe it to my fuge, so I can remove the mj that is feeding it.. then,,,,,, it may be "just about right"
You may want to look into a small ehiem... ???

[Charlie Davidson]

Woops :) you were asking size (GPH) right?
IMHO -- @ 2x total volume of water

[westcoastreef]

So 30 gph on a 15 gallon doesnt seem right,I don't even think they make 30gph pumps?

[mr294]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11271487#post11271487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7

although, i seriously doubt you can compare it to an aquaconnect bulb. the SE aquaconnect 14k's are in a different league basically b/c the PAR is so high.

The phoenix is the same as the DE aquaconnect 14k, and has pretty much driven that bulb out of the US market due to the pricepoint. I can't remember the last time I saw a DE aquaconnect for sale :D

[mr294]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11272849#post11272849 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
So 30 gph on a 15 gallon doesnt seem right,I don't even think they make 30gph pumps?

I think you would be fine with around 100-150gph through there. I would probably just go the route Al suggested and "T" off your main return if you have a large enough pump. Otherwise look into one of the smaller eheims.

[westcoastreef]

Thanks a 100 gallons an hour seems more like it. The enheim's are know for being pretty quiet right? Comparatively.

[mr294]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11273215#post11273215 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
Thanks a 100 gallons an hour seems more like it. The enheim's are know for being pretty quiet right? Comparatively.

Yep, especially the smaller models like the 1048.

[westcoastreef]

What about advice if I wanted to get a larger pump for the whole system, something quiet, and powerful enough for my 90 display, sump, ca reactor t-valve, and the frag tank on a ball valve?

[westcoastreef]

BTY, the tank looks awesome Brandon!

[twon8]

i've got an ocean runner 2500 as the return on my 90, but it also feeds the 10 gallon frag tank and a gac loaded tlf phosphate reactor.

[twon8]

if there isn't too much head to deal with, i've used a mj 1200 as the return on the 10 gallon frag tank, it did fine till i simplified things.

[westcoastreef]

So I was just checking, my return pump does 1100 gph, is that enough for both? Seems like it might be because that ocean runner 2500 is less gph

[mr294]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11273427#post11273427 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
So I was just checking, my return pump does 1100 gph, is that enough for both? Seems like it might be because that ocean runner 2500 is less gph

Yeah thats way more than enough to do everything you want to do. Might have missed it earlier in the thread, but what model pump is it?

[mr294]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11273365#post11273365 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by westcoastreef
BTY, the tank looks awesome Brandon!

Thanks! :D

[Charlie Davidson]

Sorry, somehow, missed the fact you have system running already... (That kinda makes the differance)
Still, @ 1.5 to 2x total water , is best.. ( good skimmer)

[westcoastreef]

Can't remember the brand off hand, im not at home.......it's really loud though, any suggestions for one thats really quiet off hand, how is the noise on your ocean runner

[mr294]

You looking for internal or external?

[westcoastreef]

Internal I guess, I have never really thought about an external pump, but it's in an apartment, so probably internal.

[twon8]

the ocean runner is very quiet, i can't hear it over the sound of the water coming out of the skimmer. it's pretty good price as well, you could get one for 49.99 at customaquatic, but they are backordered.

i use the eheim tubing meant for the 1260, it fits perfectly on the metric fittings.

[mr294]

I would either look at the eheims or oceanrunners as Anthony suggested. I've had good experiences with both brands.

[westcoastreef]

Thanks guys! Xmas present to myself, frag tank and new pump!

[westcoastreef]

I think I am going to go for the ocean runner, due to the 100 price difference.

[Charlie Davidson]

Of all the fish, I have found most beautiful, yet hard to keep,( for me) How is your copperband doing?
BTW, I ran a OR for 1 yr, never touching it... never needing too!

[westcoastreef]

Oh my Copperband is doing great!! Thanks for asking. The day's I was catching the peppermint shrimp, he would go into the trap and eat a whole cube of mysis by himself. He must have eaten 4 cubes by the time I was done. The frag tank I decided to go with a 20 gallon high, which is being delivered next week, and will be drilled for pickup next Monday hopefully. With the height it will diffuse some of the light for low light corals near the bottom.