lighting for a 150 gal reef

[golfish]

As most of you know, I'll be setting up a new tank this year. I'm planning a 150 gal tank 48" long x 24" tall x 30" wide.
I don't know if you all have heard about our electricity problems here in California so here's the scoop. They plan to raise the price up 70% over the next few years. Even though I live in a city that will NOT be effected by this increase, It doen't mean I wont feel a small pinch in a few years. So here's the idea I have now, for this month
I have talked to lots of ppl who tell me I will be able to run 2x400watt MH's without a chiller, but the cost of electricity will be lots more than the 250's. I had planned to run 400watt 10k's along with 4x55watt 03 bulbs. I don't think the PC's will remove the yellow\green from 400watt 65k bulbs. I know the 250 65K's put out close to the same par as the 400watt 10k's. Soooooooooooooooooooooo what's your thoughts on lighting this new tank with 2x250watt 65k's and 4x55watt 03 PC's...I want to be able to keep any and all corals and clams.
Another thought would be to run 3x250 watt MH's. I could even throw a 20K into the mix. Do you think 3x250's puts out heat close too 2x400's. I have read that the 400 get REAL hot.

Mark

[DgenR8]

Mark,
I've been looking very closely at P.C.'s and have been convinced that they will support pretty much anything you want to put in your reef. I've seen clams flourish under P.C.'s and was nearly sold on them. But... from looking at set ups in many LFS's I just can't put my money in P.C.'s exclusively. Yes, it is the elusive m/h "shimmer" that I can't live without. So, I've pretty much decided that I need to combine P.C.'s with m/h or possibly P.C.'s with m/v??? I have heard of an "IWASAKI mercury vapor" bulb which is supposed to be very close to the same lighting effect as m/h. I don't know as I've only read about them and never saw one first hand. Maybe someone "in the know" could "shed a little light on this subject"
:smokin:-----LARRY

[eddie]

ive beat the whole lighting issue to death in my head the best high light no chiller problem solver in my opion is to use a hydrofarm reflector like you can get from a hydroponics store for about $100 bucks they have a tempered glass lens and have a ventalation system that pulls air through the hood you hook up a cage fan to vent the hot air into a differnt room works for hydroponic set ups why not aquariums i think they even keep the temp on there hydroponic water gardens around the same temp as our reefs 78-79degrees of course you need a tank thats abought 3x3 demension which is the spread of the reflector.you could use a 400or 1000watt iwasaki run it on 240 which will draw less amps and the bulb heat never comes in contact with the reefs water surface.i have lots more thoughts but im not great at typing so ill leave it at that good luck with watever you decide.

[eddie]

you could even use a light rail on your tank deminsion and 1 400watt of any k temp would be more than adiquit lighting

[eddie]

every thing ive heard about the compacts is good except when it comes to sps and the amount of uv they do need the compacts cant provide but i dont realy know i just love to talk its the gemini in me

[eddie]

last comment sorry just think youed only have to replace one 400 or 1000watt bulb at practicaly the same price as a 70 150 or 250 which the money spent on a second bulb could go to electrical consumpsion you can get a light mover cheap at aquatic ecosystems and it would make the corals think clouds are moving above

[Agu]

Golfish,

It really depends on what you want to keep. I have two400's on a 180 with two vho actinics. I wouldn't do it again.
I've had to move almost all the single polyp lps to another tank. They shrank up and started loosing color under the 400's. (this is also happening to a friend who upgraded from 250's to 400's) So did most of the shrooms. sps that came out of a tank with 250's don't have the original colors as when I got them. Most have turned tan/brown. Clams, capnella, xenia, leathers,and some sps are thriving, but they'd probably do just as well under less light.I've put a glass top on the tank and it seems to be helping but I don't know if it's due to reducing light or shielding UV rays.

Because yours will be a 4' tank I'd recommend two 250's and four vho's (with an icecap 660) You can mix and match the vho's to get the color you want, but still get the light intensity and get the shimmering effect of the mh.

Regarding heat, I built a light box similar to the one on Larrys page but hung it as a pendant. So far no heat problems even with a covered tank and only one 3" fan to cool the lights.

Agu

[eddie]

i only recomend super high lighting for sps and clams of course you dont want softies and shrums under and with the single 400 it will do just as well if not better on a light rail than 2 250s coral farmers are already utilizeing these setups.that is if your really trying to get the best bang for your buck in set up and operating costs long term.plus its 100watts less power.just use vhos with internal refectors or a single 20k on a hqi ballest.or a 12k remeber thats 100watts 10or 12 hrs per day less power consumption all year long.a light mover barly uses any power.of course this is just my 2 cents agin.and to the guy with the dual 400 upgrade on a 180 how bought raiseing your lights then slowly lower them until your animals are acclimated.put your sensitive ones somewhere in the shade and be glad youve got the 400watters.you might not now but if your in the hobby 5years from now ill bet you will.oh well i may be wrong but im sure more people will agree than disagree if theyve been in the hoby 5+ years ive personaly been in it 12 and will be until the day i die it just became part of my life that i truly enjoy.its just a descusion anyway right

[DgenR8]

OKAY---
Can anyone throw personal experience with the "IWASAKI" mercury vapor lights into the mix? Do they come in wattage other than 250? Do they give that same "shimmer" that M/H give?? How many bulbs can run on each ballast??

[eddie]

they come in 400 1000 and i think 1500 watt but in my opinion 20k and 12k look the best the 10k AB 12k sunburst 65k iwasaki and 20k coralife come in wattage up to 1000 to my knowledge

[Agu]

you made my point exactly eddie "I only recommend super high lighting for sps and clams." It's back to what does Golfish want in his tank before any specific recommendations can be made.

I've raised the lights, lowered the lights, altered photo period, etc. The fact is, although the lps and shrooms survived they did not thrive. Most people will want more diversity than just sps and clams,at least based on the tanks I've seen.

Agu (the guy with the dual 400w upgrade on a 180)

[eddie]

so do you want to sell the 400watters cheap then

[Agu]

eddie,

I'd love to sell them, but only for enough $$ to be able to replace it with the setup recommended to Golfish (ie; not cheap). That would involve building a whole new hood/pendant to accomodate four 6' vho's and two 250 mh.

Guess I'm stuck for now.

Agu

[eddie]

oh well i tryed i like to buy things cheap ive bought enough at over and full priced to last a life time.have you ever seen the post i saw the light with the gray bar $25 250mv ballast.i just want to eventualy get away from all the extra wires.thats why i want a good single 1000watt 20k bulb run on 240 to light a 8long 12in high x 3 foot wide homade plywood tank curtosy of a light rail just a one wire light set up thats my true goal

[DgenR8]

EDDIE
Could you elaborate on the "light rail"? I've seen those words in your posts, but don't know what it is...
THANX-----LARRY

[golfish]

I already have the 4x55 watt PC's, so VHO ligting is out. Besides PC's are better than VHO anyway:) I plan to keep some Clams and move most of the LPS and softies from my 55. The 55 will be torn down. I may even want to keep an SPS or two.........

[David Grigor]

If your wanting to use PC as your supplemental lighting ( ie: actinics ) I would challenge your VHO to PC comment.

After using PC for 8 months, I trashed it.

[golfish]

David, I'm sure lots of ppl will...One reason PC's are better is because I already have them. I have seen the 03 actinic PC lights that Lampsnow has. They seem like true actinics. I may also switch to german bulbs...will see.



[Edited by golfish on 01-08-2001 at 09:52 AM]

[DgenR8]

David,
I'm shopping lights and am seriously considering P.C.'s what made you unhappy with them?? Maybe you can save me and some others from making a mistake.
Thanx, ---LARRY

[DgenR8]

OR, maybe you still have those P.C.'s and would like to sell them:
Desdrivelimo@aol.com

[David Grigor]

I definately agree that if you own them then try to use'em. Mine got downgraded to the 75g Freshwater planted tank using daylights......

I have seen pictures of Truce PC Actinics and may be better than blue previously but from what I have read there is still a lot a quality issues in the manufacturing and you never know how actinic vs. the blue your bulbs are going to be. VHO URI Actinic bulbs on the other hand are proven/consistant performers.

Had I been smart ( Hindsight 20/20 ) I would have opted for the ICECAP ballast vs. CSL retro. That way have more options if you don't like the results or bulb combinations.

Having had various types of lighting VHO, PC, 175W MH, 400W MH ( 10K Ushio, 10K+ Blueline, 12k Sunburst ), my corals reacted ( looked ) the worst with the PC setup than any of the others. I know lighting good/bad results have different answers based on reefkeepers individual taste. FWIW: Here is a thread with my results: http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10384 . Granted light may not have been the only factor but when I used 400W 12k on same tank, I kept parameters in line ( no changes in my routine ).

It's okay if you don't agree with me, mine is an honest evaluation based on my experience with the PC setup.

Moral of the story for anyone who does not already own a PC only ballast. I highly recommend using ICECAP ballast so you have better lighting options/combinations down the road.

[David Grigor]

One more thing: If you are considering PC and one of your Pros is bulb lifetime ( said 1 - 1.5 year ) , my experience with that is I had a daylight bulb that was a touch over 1 year old, I replaced the blue bulb with another daylight to use on a freshwater tank. The intensity difference ( to the naked eye ) was vastly different between the two ( my estimitation is at minimum twice as bright ). No clue if there was any real spectrum change though. After seeing the difference I would change the bulbs earlier than 1 year.

[DgenR8]

David,
I have to guess that you love your M/H and suppliment with vho actinics. Am I correct?? Do you have any personal experience with IWASAKI M/V that you could share??

[David Grigor]

Reef125,

I have seen Agu's tank ( 180g 2X400W MH 65k with 2 140W VHO actinics. For my tastes I do not like the look ( not blue enough for me ). I think the bulb $$ of the 65K is very atractive but just don't like it. If I were to go with 65K bulbs I would need at least double the actinics ( 4 6' bulbs ). Exactly what Agu's comment was.

Now if you were using 250W 65K bulbs it may not take quite as much VHO actinics to balance it out for my taste.

I am using 3X400W MH Blueline E-Ballast with 10K Ushio bulbs ( about 3 mo. old ) and by themselves look pretty good for me. However, I put 3 48" VHO actinics on it ( I already had from 90g setup ) and worked out prefect for my taste.

I also agree with Agu on the types of corals you want to keep. With the 400W LPS ( even on the very bottom ) don't look near as healthy as they did with 175W MH. SPS on the other hand responded fantastically to the 400W, purples,pinks,yellows are much more vivid compared to 175MH.

If you plan to keep a wide range of corals I really think Agu hit the nail on the head 250W MH. Also, may be able to get away with less Actinic if you choose 65K.

[eddie]

reef 125 a light rail uses a small motor to move a fixture slowly back and forth on a track.im not the only one who thinks its a good idea i also read a post by geo the guy who makes the reactors about them and saw a pic in fama useing one i think it was the issue with the revolving aquarium on the cover i also made a post about useing one with a 20k 1000watt coralife on a light rail because the bulb only costs $150 at lamp snow i also emailed coralife. and bob mankin of coral farms who someone on a post said was useing the light movers already to see what they thought.i figure 1000watts will give me the par i need even if it is a coralife 20k and i can aford to replace the bulb every 6 or 8 months if i feel the need to.it would also work great with supplemented sunlight ill soon find out if i have my way though.bob mankin said probably less light would work on a 180 that was what i planned the set up for but now ive totaly made up my mind on a 8 foot by 12 or 16in high x 30 or 36in wide plywood and epoxy tank with eggcrate and pvc shelfs and home made surgers i plan to collect and propagate every sps i can get my hands on till the day i die

[DgenR8]

Eddie,
So, a light rail with one M/h bulb traveling back and forth across the tank would take the place of say 2 or 3 m/h's that I would need for my 6' long reef?? sounds like something for me to investigate further. Do you know of anyone that sells them on-line??----LARRY

[eddie]

aquatic ecosystems sells them and lots of other neat stuff from fish farming to oyster farming to hydroponics etc i just recieve there 2001 catalog its bigger than a phone book and in color

[David Grigor]

Eddie,

More power to ya if you think it will work.

So if the MH is moving across this light rail would there be enough coverage that the other end of the tank won't be in total darkness until it moves back across.

If so, could it be good for the corals with a on/off kinda of light pattern constantly ?

I would understand this concept more if the tank was more square and the light was several feet off the water to get more coverage like you would need in a green house......

[David Grigor]

I got the 2001 catalog a week or so too.

It gives great ideas for DIY stuff........

[eddie]

for the tank im planning the coverage is ideal i could go deeper but i want to be able to reach the bottom with a breeze and instead of placeing the sand directly on the bottom i plan to use tupperware containers like tropacorium to rotate dead and live sand beds to future identical set ups this is not just a hobby to me i truly love it

[eddie]

oh and dont you think they get on and off intensity all day will all the clouds moveing in the sky and like someone else said you could use a digital timer to set differnt patterns for the light mover

[eddie]

i think a spider light reflector will work better on a 180 though and they also make a 4 ft hydrofarm chain driven light mover but the light rail also has somthing called a smart drive built into it specificly to even out the light distrabution and can be set to stop wherever you want it to im just thinking best bang per buck long term mabey not now but 10 years from now it will pay off but if not ill still be doing it

[David Grigor]

Well sure there is some fluctuation from cloud cover etc. but I wouldn't think it is as frequent and consistant as the light rail.

What kind of height above the tank are you thinking the light would be ? How much of tank at any point in time will have light coverage ?


Let us know if you end up trying it and documenting pros/cons for this kind of setup after several months in operation.......

PS: It's good that your thinking "outside the box". Just not quite sure how well it will work.

[eddie]

tust me i plan to get a $150 dollar digital camera from walmart and document every step im going to borrow a scaner or camera and try to get pics posted of the reef i have for sale in the classifieds if i dont sell the whole set up i plan to part it out like a car i want to diy the skimmer reactor tank surgers and anything else that sounds fun thats why im in this hobby fun i also plan to learn more about these damn computers im totaly new to them and the net

[FLASH]

I think eddies light bar is a great idea. Probably better for the corals, also. It replicates the motion of the sun across the sky..first lighting one side of a coral formation, then passing over the top of it, for max. illumination, similar to noontime, and then illuminating the opposite side, again, at a slightly lower light, dusk. Great idea!

[eddie]

when i wanted to set up the 180 i thought of 2 spiderlights 1 400 20k 1 250 65k and have the 65k come on for a few hours at noon and then go off both reflectors on a light rail but now have to me the perfect tank in my mind bang per buck and that is also important to me and im so sure a 1000watt light will spread a nice coverage over the 8foot tank i plan to build that i will scratch what i have now to do it and i do believe anyone can do anything they truly put there mind to including me i could probably even learn to type and spell properly if i actualy had to

[eddie]

oh ive been keeping live rock and salt water since i was 10 or 12 i spent my child years in naples fl and went on regular trips to the keys with my parents lobster collecting i had a slurp gun and caught a juvinile queen angel and was hooked i dont think it was illegal to collect the rock then but i put it back in the ocean anyway im now 25 and my first salt water tank had fl live rock and a cannister filter and sat where it got sunlight and i was keeping macros and anenomes when i was 11 or 12 sea urchins snails and such that i was able to catch now i want to make my own lace rock from crushed oyster shell like on garf for fun

[Evets]

Golfish,
I agree with Agu and David Grigor in that 250W MHs are the best choice if your planning to blend softs, LPS, SPS, and clams. Most of the LPS and softs that were in my original PC lit tank had a hard time adjusting to life under 400W MH, but have done well under 250W MH, with a couple of exceptions. The false Ricordia mushrooms and the Platygyra maze coral seem to miss the lower light levels in the PC only tank. 250W MH's - the compromise of champions :)
-Steve

[DgenR8]

Back to this "light rail" thing,
If you have a tank say 6' long (coincidently, that's exactly what I have) that would mean a 6' track for the light to travel on right?? Next question is how fast (or slow) does the light move across the tank?? is it one 10 HR. cycle or does the light move back and forth meaning multiple cycles?? When I first read EDDIE'S post I thought the latter now, I'm wondering if maybe one long cycle through the day might be better also might be what the "light rail" does. If that's the case, I wonder if that would be the closest to natural sun light movement I've ever heard about. I think this could be a FANTASTIC idea. Could you tell me more about it?
-------------LARRY-----:smokin:

[golfish]

I think I'll jump in here, if that's ok? ;) Thanks Steve, That was the answer I was looking for.
I lost all my files on my PC about a month ago. You live by me don't you ?? I would like to get out to see your tanks, If I remember you have a tank running Iwasaki's....

[dragon0121]

Hi golfish,
I'm a latecomer to your thread. I've set up two tanks that use the Iwasaki bulbs. If you want punch for your money, this is the way to go. If you want the best light for your animals, then I feel the Iwasaki will be more than satisfactory! If you are a BLUE TANK lover, then the Iwasakis will be disappointing without a ton of Actinics. My 180g tank has 400W Iwasakis on it, and these lights are tough on low light animals but SPS and clams will love you. I've also set up a 75g with 250W Iwasakis and 4 110W VHO actinics and everything, including mushrooms, loves this light. You might sacrifice some extreme coloration in SPS but everything will be healthy! :D I personally won't spend the money for other MH bulbs that only last 6-12 months, the Iwasakis should go 18-24 months!

[golfish]

Thanks dragon, I don't want blue but I defiantly don't want yellow or green. I plan to use the 4x55 watt PC actinics and 2x40 watt NO actinics along with the 2x250 watt 65k's........If its close to what I have now,I'll be happy. see tank below

[Agu]

Golfish,

Sounds like a good plan to me. On another tank I've also supplemented pc's with no actinics. Really like the color of that tank.

I bought into the "you can't have too much light" bs when designing my ultimate lighting setup. Now I'm looking into a way to downgrade the mh and add more vho (or pc's in your case) without trashing the whole thing. It's not just the color as Dave pointed out either. I could fix that by going to a higher color temp bulb, which I'll be doing, and hope the reduced par will allow me to return the LPS to the 180.

There just aren't many "lower light areas" in an aquarium when using 400w mh, which really restricts what you can have in your tank.

Agu

[David Grigor]

Reef125,

I looked in the Aquatic Ecosystems 2001 catalog ( pg 316 ) to try and get clarrification on the movement.

It mentions being able to control the distance traveled on the rail but no mention of being able to slow down the speed. It says it moves down and back in 7 minutes with a 30 second delay at each end.

Total cost $167.00.

[Evets]

Golfish,
You're welcome to visit my tank, and yes, I do have Iwasakis and PCs. In fact, I can show you the difference between Iwasaki powered by IceCap and Iwasaki powered by PFO. I can also show you the Iwasakis with 2x96W PC 7100K blue supplementation, and with an additional 400W 20K Osram. I can also show you KW's kalk reactor :). My tank is a mess right now, but I'll share in good times and in bad. Anyway, let me know if and when you would like to check out the tank. I live in Upland, a coupl emiles northwest of the old Piece of the Reef location.
-Steve

[golfish]

Steve, So far I have this weekend off(never know at joka-cola) If that's good with you then lets say Saturday afternoon or Sunday late morning...I'll give you an e-mail later in the week. Thanks

Mark

[Evets]

Golfish,
I'll look for the email. Either time will probably be ok with me.
-Steve

[eddie]

if you use a digital timer you could have the mover stop over areas that need it the most for longer periods and then come back on i thought this post was abought elc cost in CA and figured if you can save on elc and extra bulb costs it might help .if the light rail works for photosenthetic plants im convencied it will work on photosenthetic corals plus ive seen a pic of it being done on corals and Bob mankin does it at coral farms though ive not seen Bobs yet i wish i could right now