40 Breeder project(s) Thread

[suppressivefire]

The tank info: 2 brand new 40 breeders with (2) 3/4" returns each and each has a custom over flow with (2) 1" drains. Tanks drilled and worked on by kmagyar aka Keith.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/695/40breeder001sv7.jpg
Overflow shot
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5906/40breeder009aw8.jpg
Getting ready for paint.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7159/40breeder015ij1.jpg
More pics to come and I will need your critique as it will be my first large setup:rollface:
These tanks will be my winter porject along with this, And being only 17 its going to be a chore :lol:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1016/442mon8th001cq3.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2563/442mon8th014tq6.jpg

[suppressivefire]

Some progress made,
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/80/40brder001ge7.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/373/40brder003mr9.jpg
As you can probably see i am stacking the systems stacked with a 30 long sump on the bottom. I have started the plumbing to get an idea but I would like some advice on how to plumb the tank. I am planning to use a dart for my pump. So any advice on how i should effeciently plumb this tank?
Heres how it will be used:
Top tank Reef
Lower tank frag system
bottom 30 gallon long sump.

[acdraindrps]

Chris,

Setup is looking pretty good. One thing I would suggest is making external durso's on the drains. Also, are you sure four one inch holes will be enough to drain all the water a dart will push?

[acdraindrps]

Also, think about maybe draining both tanks into two oversized drains so that you dont have four drains coming into that 30L. This will help save on sump space.

[belgian_waffleman]

are you sure that the shelves can hold 400lbs each ?
It will keep you busy all winter for sure !

Waffleman

[suppressivefire]

8.33 water weight per gallon x 40 gallon = 333.2lbs
these shelves hold 350lbs or more per shelf.
I hope.

[cardiffgiant]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11186134#post11186134 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by belgian_waffleman
are you sure that the shelves can hold 400lbs each ?


That would be my only concern.

[chrisguy]

I think you are going to have a hard time with the amount of flow from a Dart and ditto on the external durso's. Without them you are going to have a very noise setup.

[cardiffgiant]

How does an external durso work?

[KurtsReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11186308#post11186308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by suppressivefire
8.33 water weight per gallon x 40 gallon = 333.2lbs
these shelves hold 350lbs or more per shelf.
I Hope

Not sure I would want to find out they will not hold a total of 700lbs by it falling over.

Like the idea of the the set up, not sure about the wire metal shelving.

[Lanceafer]

I know that you are not going to want to hear this but I would ditch the shelves. I have them in my laundry room and they might hold the tanks but they will be very very easy to push over. I have old towels, sheets and the like in mine and the whole thing wobbles when I pull one off. Also you might want to take into account how much the tanks weigh plus sand, rocks, lights, all the little extras that people forget to take into account Ill bet that each tank when stocked will be well over 350 each. Ill bet you are looking at more like 1000 lbs when its all put together.

I like the car by the way. What are you doing to it? Rebuilding the engine?

[Chrsnwk]

I'm never a fan of overbuilding tank stands, however in this case I'm a bit concerned for your setup for a couple reasons...

1 - Deflection. Just because it will hold 350# on each shelf, does not mean that the shelf won't bend a fairly substantial amount under that sort of a load. The fact that it appears that your tanks overhand the shelves a wee bit in the front and back also give me the heebie jeebies. I'd like to at minimum see a bit more beef to the shelves, either in the form of about 1.5-2" of plywood glued screwed and fastened into a single slab between the shelf and tank. Allow me to explain my cause for concern... for a time I had a set of plastic shelves that were "rated" at 200 lbs per shelf. I had a single 10 gallon tank upon one. It was ok for a time, but over the span of months the 80 lb tank gradually deflected until i could slide a pencil between the tank and the shelf. the tank itself was holding up ok, but again, it was only a $6 tank and a few gallons of water. no huge risk. you have the makings of a very nice looking setup that you have already made some substantial investment in. I'd set that shelving unit on a concrete floor, empty, and measure the distance from the floor to the shelf on each end and in the middle. then put a couple 3 or 4 gallon buckets full of water, on it, then sit on the buckets and have a buddy remeasure from the shelf. I'm hoping you will see a difference of less than a 1/16" or so, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the number wasn't closer to 3/8" or 1/2".

2 - point loading. Are those 4 spindly little legs sitting on concrete or some other flooring when this thing will be in it's final home? If the floor is anything but concrete, I'd recommend putting something under the leg to spread that load a bit. I'd used a 3 or 4" square of 1/4" thick aluminum or steel under each leg. I would not use wood, MDF, any sort of plastic, or anything that could absorb water. I also wouldn't recommend a patio block or any "concrete product" less than 3" thick.

I'll get off my soapbox now, but I hope you at least take what I said at least under advisement. At the very least, please load up the stand with ~300 lbs per shelf and shake wiggle and measure some stuff before you start gluing pipes together.

Good Luck!!!

[chrisguy]

First - Look at Chrsnwk occupation. He knows what he is talking about and his advise should be strongly considered. :D

I'll add my .02. While saltwater may weigh 8.33 lbs per gallon, your calculation does not include the weight of the tank and it's contents. Some may say that the rock's displace the water, so it's a wash. Most people estimate 10lbs per gallon to cover all of the "extra's". so that puts each 40 gallon tank at about 400lbs, which is more than the shelving unit is rated for.

Like others have stated, I would ditch the rack and replace it with a good home made 2x4 shelf made to hold such weight. You can double up the legs for both strength and to increase the foot print.

If you would like to stop by and see the shelf I built for my sump & refugium, just PM me. I think it's inline with what you should do and it was not complicated or expensive to build.

[mr.maroonsalty]

looks like a 70/71 olds stripped of chrome for the track; that thing have a rocket?

I'd worry about that rack racking and the legs might quickly snap.

[Capt_Cully]

I was gonna guess 72 Cut.

What year is it?

[suppressivefire]

Thanks for all the input, I have used that stand for 30 longs so i thought it would be ok but i guess not. I going to ditch the shelves and build a stand as many suggested. And being new to the plumbing how does the durso work/look like. And I was hoping to get a pump that has a low voltage/ cheaper to run, Im looking to not have to use power heads if possible. Is there an alternative pump that would fit the job?
As for the car im planning to restore it and go pro-street, Its a 72 cutlass/442 with a 350 rocket, a turbo 400 trans and 12 bolt posi.

[mr.maroonsalty]

It very well could be; fill the tanks up with fw and judge it for yourself. Cutting the legs short and building a cabinet to set the first shelf on and putting the sump within it could very well lower the center of gravity enough to take sway away letting you keep the nice open rack look. I like the advice to reinforce with plywood shelving. turnbuckels and cross wires would also help for stiffening.

[Capt_Cully]

I thought it was a 72. Sorry for staying OT, but when I was a kid my older brother had a 72 Cut Convertable. It's been my favorite muscle car ever since. Looking forward to seeing more pics of that as you restore it. Balls to the wall.

Nice tanks too, keep us posted on those as well.

[belgian_waffleman]

Chris,

If you are looking to reduce cost, use cinder blocks and 2x4's to stack the tanks up. That how a lot of the aquarium stores stack their tanks.
All the LFS's around here seem to do it that way.

Waffleman

[redrider911]

Chris, maybe its the camera angle but it looks like you would need a little more space between the shelves and the tank to get your hands in there, and in case you need to get a large rock in or out.

[cardiffgiant]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11190420#post11190420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by suppressivefire
Thanks for all the input, I have used that stand for 30 longs so i thought it would be ok but i guess not. I going to ditch the shelves and build a stand as many suggested. And being new to the plumbing how does the durso work/look like. And I was hoping to get a pump that has a low voltage/ cheaper to run, Im looking to not have to use power heads if possible. Is there an alternative pump that would fit the job?
As for the car im planning to restore it and go pro-street, Its a 72 cutlass/442 with a 350 rocket, a turbo 400 trans and 12 bolt posi.

From what I was able to find about durso's, they provide a larger volume of water around the drain so that it makes less noise.

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/Portals/0/standpipe.jpg

[cardiffgiant]

Here's another shot of one in an overflow.

Hey, be sure to keep us posted on both projects!!

http://www.suttonreef.co.uk/Images/ExternalDurso.gif

[suppressivefire]

So a t off the bulkhead w/ a cap and an air hole?
any suggestions on the pump or how to lay out the plumbing thats my biggest concern. thanks!
-chris

[suppressivefire]

bump i would like to make some headway :)

[chrisguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11194785#post11194785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by suppressivefire
So a t off the bulkhead w/ a cap and an air hole?
any suggestions on the pump or how to lay out the plumbing thats my biggest concern. thanks!
-chris

If you have the room, try to use a sweeping T. You install these with the curve going from the bulkhead down towards the sump and the top of the T has an extension and a cap. The sweep helps reduce water noise.

As for the pump, you can do a couple things.

1. Pump to the top tank, have it drain to the middle then drain to the sump.
2. Pump to each tank and have each drain to the sump.

You should determine the flow you want, then get the right sized pump. Use the RC head loss calc to determine the correct flow for your setup. From there I would make sure you have a bypass from the pump back into the sump, so that if the pump's flow is too much, you can divert some of it to the sump. This can also help reduce noise.

[suppressivefire]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11197557#post11197557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisguy
If you have the room, try to use a sweeping T. You install these with the curve going from the bulkhead down towards the sump and the top of the T has an extension and a cap. The sweep helps reduce water noise.

As for the pump, you can do a couple things.

1. Pump to the top tank, have it drain to the middle then drain to the sump.
2. Pump to each tank and have each drain to the sump.

You should determine the flow you want, then get the right sized pump. Use the RC head loss calc to determine the correct flow for your setup. From there I would make sure you have a bypass from the pump back into the sump, so that if the pump's flow is too much, you can divert some of it to the sump. This can also help reduce noise.
Ok I was planning on the # 2. also i want alot of flow for sps and also not having any power heads. for the pump going to get flow to all 4 3/4" bulk heads with equal flow.
thank you for your help to Chris.:)

[suppressivefire]

morning bump. the main problem lies with how to get 4 pipes out of one inlet of the pump correctly.

[chrisguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11201918#post11201918 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by suppressivefire
morning bump. the main problem lies with how to get 4 pipes out of one inlet of the pump correctly.

You are going to need to use gate valves so you can control how much flow goes out each outlet. The reason is, if you do not have the gate valves to close off the output to the lower tank, with the head pressure the lower tank would get the majority of the flow while the top tank would get little to none.

This is why I recommended pumping to the top tank and having that flow to the second tank. It's easier to control. However it will be harder to deal with micro bubbles and noise.

Another option is two smaller pumps.

[suppressivefire]

here some more pics
Tek 36inch light t5ho frag tank lighting.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6586/sat17th019nd7.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2839/sat17th020xp7.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6428/sat17th021fh2.jpg

[suppressivefire]

Just ordered the Dart pump and will be here thursday!

[acdraindrps]

Chris,
Your best bet would be to come off of the dart to a manifold, like one listed here (http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Manifolds-Distributors) and go to each return that you have, with ball valves on each return. If the top tank feeds the bottom tank, you will definately be dealing with micro bubbles, like chrisguy said.

As for the drains I would make some kind of durso. I found some bulkheads on that same website with sweeps built into the backs of them that would work perfect for an external durso, and save space.

[chrisguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11269839#post11269839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acdraindrps
Chris,
Your best bet would be to come off of the dart to a manifold, like one listed here (http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Manifolds-Distributors) and go to each return that you have, with ball valves on each return.
I would recoment gate valves as they are easier to fine tune than ball valves.

[ElDiabloPollo]

Seeing this for the first time, I think you will have way to much flow trough the sump. It would better, in my opinion to give each tank it own closed loop, and then use 1 smaller pump for the filter loop. This being said, you seem pretty far along so...

[suppressivefire]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11270673#post11270673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisguy
I would recoment gate valves as they are easier to fine tune than ball valves.
thats what i was planning.
also im planning to go the way stashu sp? dave for the plumbing.

[suppressivefire]

Made a decent amount of head-way with my build.
Got the new dart pump earlier in the week.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9829/friday7th014fi1.jpg
Almost dont with the stand here are some progression shots.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9133/40breederstand001zq3.jpg
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9355/40breederstand003iu9.jpg

Let me know what you guys think!:rollface:

[Chrsnwk]

Much better stand. Gonna be a really nice setup :)

[belgian_waffleman]

I like the stand ;) smart move!

Can't wait to see the next phase...


Waffleman

[suppressivefire]

yea that stand is deff way better. I just came back home with about $60 in plumbing.

Ill keep all you updated and thanks for tagging along :)

[suppressivefire]

The plumbing is mostly done and dry fitted. And here are the pics you guys have been waiting for!!
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2603/40breederstand008xe9.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6806/40breederstand010dw4.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2307/40breederstand012is7.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7231/40breederstand011ln4.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6033/40breederstand009cw1.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6282/40breederstand013nf5.jpg
:rollface:

[suppressivefire]

also new reflectors and sockets.
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1209/40breederstand016si9.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8012/40breederstand017rq4.jpg

[Conesus_Kid]

Sweet!

Let's get that setup wet!!! :D

[belgian_waffleman]

Nice setup but no unions?

Waffleman

[magdelan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11381049#post11381049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by belgian_waffleman
Nice setup but no unions?

Waffleman

Good eyes and very good question...

[wastememphis]

Does the external pump, go straight up, into a "T" then split on each side to the top tank and the bottom tank?

How much water is going to be directed into the lower tanks?

[Chrsnwk]

First off... very neat, well routed plumbing. I'll chime in too about the union thing... they are a really good idea. I'd add a union valve, or a union and a valve on each side of that pump. It's going to need to be serviced from time to time and as is look now, you are going to need a hacksaw to facilitate that.

For an additional $.02 I'll mention one more thing... As we discussed in the concerns on the strength of your stand, water can be rather heavy. When those return lines (and drains to a lesser extent) fill up with water, especially that cool looking manifold you have, it's going to have a good but of heft to it, and it's just hanging off the back of a standard (i.e. not heavy) duty bulkhead fitting, mounted through the relatively thin glass of a 40g tank. You have what's called a cantilevered load that is pulling downward, pushing on the lower part of the bulkhead, and pulling on the upper. I fear over time the bulkhead fitting or worse the glass will crack. Technically, the vertical return pipe from the pump is giving it extra support, but in doing so you are stressing the plastic pump housing, which might lead to something unfortunate there. (which factors into the serviceability/union issue again). What I'm getting at is I'd like to see some bracketry to either clamp the vertical pipes to the fram of the stand, or some other hanger/clamp type thing supporting the horizontal runs somewhere.

Good Luck !

[acdraindrps]

I second what everything Chris has stated.

Also would like to add my two cents.

The large amount of horizontal travel that come after your drain bulkheads will slow the amount of water you will drain from the system.

Use unions, I already utilized mine and my new tank has been up for give or take 6 months.

[Ellery]

Nice setup - You may want to make sure you have some sort of brackect to the wall to prevent the stand from tipping if it's not wide enough and very top heavy. Just something to think about.

[jjjo]

any updates lately?