Refugium/Sump important?

[trr8288]

Do I need a sump or refugium for my tank or can i get away without using one and what is the basic idea of what they do?

[kaihonu82]

what size is your main tank?
You don't absolutely need one. I ran my 29gal for over a year without a sump/fuge and it was fine. I did have problems keeping nitrates down and the added sump//fuge eradicated that problem.
The sump can add to the overall water volume of your tank, you can also hide unsightly equipment in there, therm, skimmer, filter etc.

The fuge is a place where macroalgae can grow and flourish which is beneficial to your water chemistry/quality. I'm sure someone else on here can explain it better than I can :)

[trr8288]

Well Im in the process of getting a 55 gallon tank but i was wondering if i needed a sump/refugium so if i did i could just set it up all together

[RyanBrucks]

what kind of tank are you getting? if its acrylic, drilling your holes is easy, and you can just drain right from the tank. if its glass and you aren't willing to pay to get it drilled, then you could get a HOB overflow siphon overflow to the sump.

research these a bit.... some will break the siphon very easily and create problems for you, and others will not. I hope somebody with direct experience can point you in the exact direction there.

[trr8288]

So is the sump important to have or does it just make things easier? So would it be recommended to get one or not to worry about? An if i need it would i be fine just making my own and then does anyone have a idea where to find plans.

[RyanBrucks]

everybody recommends a sump! its not a 'necessity, but if you are up for building one yourself, definitely give it a go. the DIY forums are great for this. If the RC search isn't working, it actually works just as well (or better) to do the same search in google, but include "reef central" + DIY somewhere in the search string.

There's plenty of places to buy cheap sumps, or plastic sheet to build your own (i'm doing this for some misc tanks right now). i just found after extensive searching that local plastic shops will charge ALOT less than most internet distrubutors for custom sheets.

[papagimp]

I"d highly recommend you go with a sump/fuge for your tank. Can't recommend this enough, the benefits far outweight any disadvantages (not that i can really think of any disadvantages). My very first SW attempt was a horrid dissapointment until I watched the local fish club here build a DIY 10g sump, I ran straight home, put one together, stuck it on my tank and within a week all my nitrates were undetecable, algae was going way quickly and overall appearance and quality of the setup improved noticably. I still had to hang my skimmer ont he back of the display tank, didn't care for that but the heaters being out of the tank made some difference as well as having a better spot for the HOB filter i ran carbon in. And then of course the coepod and amphipod populations took off like crazy afterwards, (that's free food for your other livestock by the way). I'll never go without a fuge/sump again.

[kaihonu82]

make sure you check out melevsreef (http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html). He's got a lot of great information on DIY sumps

[trr8288]

how big of a sump would i then need for a 55 gallon tank? So with the sump i can put my heaters, protein skimmer and such in the sump. is doing this just as effective as having them in my tank. and finally would i then need a hanging filter or would i essentially need nothing in my display tank?

[RyanBrucks]

I assume you are planning on putting it under the tank?

IMO your question should be "how big of a sump can I fit in the location that I want it", since this is most definitely going to be the limiting factor. there is no such thing as too big of a sump!!

but i'd say for 55 gallon, anywhere from 15-30 gallons would be good, just make sure there's room for the equipment. you want.

[papagimp]

You'll want the largest sump you can get/work with. Having any equpiment in the sump is the exact same as having it in the tank, a skimmer probably would work better in the sump vs. the diplsay due to the fact that water going into the sump is skimmed from the surface, where alot of dissolved organics like to hang out. AS for a hanging filter, live rock and live sand is the main biological filter for any reef tank or FOWLR tank, you don't have to use the HOB filters, many choose not to due to the potential nitrate problems that are associated with them, I like having mine hanging on the sump though, I don't run anything other than the occasional carbon in it though. You will most likely need appropriate powerheads in the display still though. Unless you get a large enough setup to run sufficeient flow from the return pump, but i havn't seen too many 55g that were setup that way.
fwiw, using a cheap wal-mart bought stand for my 55g, a 10g is all i can fit under it. If I had a different stand, I'd probably be able to fit something better under there. But it does help.

[Piscator]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11095923#post11095923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trr8288
Do I need a sump or refugium for my tank or can i get away without using one and what is the basic idea of what they do?

In addition to all that has been said, another reason for adding a sump is just the plain old fun of putting it together. The concept is simple. You've got your water in the sump and the display. A pump moves the water up from the sump to the display (in most normal setups). As the water rises in the display it "overflows" back down into the sump via a drilled overflow or one that you can buy and hang on the back of your display.

Very simple plumbing.

Now is the time to do it. It can be done later...but why wait?

Best wishes,

[uscharalph]

I would never run a reef without a sump. I try to put the biggest sump that will fit in the bottom cabinet.

[seagirl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11096881#post11096881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uscharalph
I would never run a reef without a sump. I try to put the biggest sump that will fit in the bottom cabinet.
i agree. you will wish you had a sump if you don't do it from the begining imo.

[Fizz71]

Here are some more advantages to having a sump not mentioned yet:

* Water level in tank never changes (evaporation is noticed in the sump)
* Additional water volume in the system means added buffer if things start to go wrong.
* You can put a fan on your sump and increase evaporation to help with overheating issues (if you have them)
* Place to add Live Rock to add to your tank's filtration but not take up tank space.
* Place to growout corals for swapping (of course you have to light it then).


I went sumpless on a system and was semi-succesfull so it CAN be done. But these days..I consider sump design part of the tank design and I won't do a tank without it.

Make it as big as you can, you can't go too big. My latest setup the sump is about 35% of the total water in the system.

--Fizz

[flipteg]

you don't need sump/refugium to have a successful reef tank, but it is highly recommended that you have one... algae, both micro and macro, are very efficient at utilizing no matter how small excess nutrient your tank have... with a refugium, you can use that same efficiency to combat them in the main tank...

a sump/refugium doesn't have to be complicated or expensive... i have a 30 gallon cube and the largest standard size aquarium i can fit inside the cabinet is a 5.5 gallon tank... my sump/refugium doesn't have any dividers... the return pump, chaeto, and other equipment are just all jumbled in there... it doesn't look very good, but it's all utilitarian...

with my current tank, i've put up with the problems associated with not having a refugium for almost 2 years... i would never consider setting up another reef tank without a sump/refugium...

[trr8288]

Is the return pump just a pump or is it a specific pump i can buy and how do I know what size pump to get exactly. And my tank is glass so can i drill a hole or is there a different way to do it for the overflow.

[flipteg]

most people recommend circulation between the sump/fuge and the main display of around 5x the volume of the main tank per hour...

you can use this head calculator to determine the proper size pump to use...
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

don't skimp on the pump... last thing you want is an unexpected expense a year or two from now because your return pump breaks... Eheim and Ocean Runner pumps are very reliable...

[Sk8r]

say that the best reason to use one is that they're generally going to save you work---work balancing your chemistry, work scraping algae; they make water changes easier, and the bigger your tank, the more important they get, because otherwise the maintenance chores get huge. [Refugiums do 2 things: 1. sop up nutrients that fuel algae growth 2. breed little crustaceans so you can go off and leave your tank unfed [with the right kind of fish] for several days without sweating it. Also---dragonets notoriously eat ONLY these crustaceans [with rare exceptions] and if you want to keep them, you need a refugium or a really HUGE tank...which means you still need a refugium, or a tang, or your algae-scraping will drive you nuts. ;)

[trr8288]

Just to be clear i can put all the hardware in the sump and just have some powerheads in the display tank correct?

[RyanBrucks]

absolutely.

best of luck!

[trr8288]

Alright thanks everybody if anyone feels there is something else i should know please let me know I want to do this right

[RyanBrucks]

if there was one more thing I'd recommend, its definitely more reading! you can learn so much on RC and other places on the net, but there are some books out there with alot of great knowledge presented in a very helpful way.

here are some great authors to search on amazon (or your local book store):



Reef Invertebrates: An Essential Guide to... by anthony Calfo (http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Invertebrates-Essential-Selection-Compatibility/dp/0967263034/ref=pd_sim_b_shvl_title_1/104-3832419-9726346)

Aquarium Corals : Selection, Husbandry, an... by Eric H. Borneman (http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Corals-Selection-Husbandry-Natural/dp/1890087475/ref=pd_sim_b_shvl_title_2/104-3832419-9726346)

The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide t... by J. Charles Delbeek (http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Aquarium-Comprehensive-Identification-Invertebrates/dp/1883693128/ref=pd_sim_b_shvl_title_1/104-3832419-9726346)

[trr8288]

Thanks RyanBrucks Im definately going to have to look into those books because if Im spending this much money I want everything ot be worth every penny. Thanks

[Fizz71]

I would also recommend looking into a local reef club--there are some great ones in Ohio including C-Sea in Cleveland:
http://www.c-sea.org/
On RC here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=166

I'm not a real big fan of bi-weekly meetings, but many clubs do something besides meetings that I can't recommend enough: Frag Swaps ..where people trade corals, equipment and stories!!! It's a great place to chat it up with other people suffering from the same reef addiction you might be. :) And it's a great place to meet locals to bounce questions off of and learn quite a bit..not to mention meet some new friends that might be able to help you out in a crisis provided you'd do the same for them.

Enjoy.

--Fizz

[Playa-1]

Get a sump and fuge.
It's a no brainer.

They will provide a plethora of benefits. I wouldn't want to keep a tank without a sump and fuge.

All that being said, it is possible to keep an aquarium without the sump and fuge. But why would you want to?

An analogy would be that you could do all the laundry without a washer and dryer but why would you want to?
You could use a toothbrush to clean you patio if you wanted to.
Get the equipment, It's worth the investment.

[trr8288]

What exactly goes in the sump for filtration and such?

[Playa-1]

Filter sock->Protein Skimmer->bubble trap->fuge->Heater/probes/etc... ->return pump

Filter Sock = filter out large stuff floating around in the water that doesn't need to be there.
Protein Skimmer = A device when working correctly will remove biological waste from the water before it has a chance to break down and cause your water quality to degrade.
Bubble Trap = a few strategically placed baffles in the sump to help rid the system of micro bubbles.
Fuge = A type of a bio filter to help export nitrate from the water and to provide a predator free environment to breed pods.
Heater/probes/Etc... = You can put equipment in the sump and then you don't have to have it creating an eye sore in your display tank.
Return pump = A water pump to send the filtered water back to the display tank.

The sump also adds extra water volume to the entire system that helps to stabilize the water and provides for a little more margin of error.

[trr8288]

Thanks now do these have to go in a specific order and with the protein skimmer is hanging or standing better

[Playa-1]

Now that you know you want a sump/fuge then you will want to do more research. I would recommend checking out the search buttons on this site for sump designs and refugiums and then visit:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm
http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

I put it in the order that i would recommend on the last post but there are many options and you would be served well by reading up on the subject and making your own decisions.

As far as skimmer go, i like the free standing skimmers. I like the insump models and you can usually get good bargains on the used equipment threads, or maybe your local craigslist. You should do a little research on the skimmers and choose carefully.

[trr8288]

With the refugium portion what exactly do i want to put in there

[trr8288]

By placing the heaters in the sump do I need to turn the temperature up to get the proper temperaure in the tank or is it just trial and error

[Playa-1]

Heaters should be fine.

Fuge, you might consider Chaeto, live rock rubble, maybe a piece of live Rock. An inexpensive grow light with an energy efficient bulb from the local hardware store.

The Chaeto will grow and provide a way to export nitrate. I can also be used as a snack for many fish.
The Rock rubble and LR will provide additional filtration and help provide a good environment for pods. Pods will supplement the diet of you live stock.

[trr8288]

I've seen some sumps with the refugium and skimmer on opposite sides of the sump and both spilling water into the return wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a sump to filter water?

[RyanBrucks]

no, it doesn't defeat the purpose, its a tradeoff.

it does reduce the amounnt of 'variable water volume' your sump can hold, or drain, before either overflowing or running dry, since your refugium will need a constant water level to overflow correctly.

the reason people generally put the refugium on the opposite end of the skimmer is so they can direct seperate flow through the refugium and control the water flow speed with a ball valve. if you simply have in the center chamber, then you are stuck with the same level of flow for the sump, skimmer, refugium etc.

of course you dont HAVE to make the refugium on the other side, it's just a design choice many people have made. You could just as easily have a separated flow control refugium in the center, as long as the partition is above the water level, and there is a side chamber for water to flow around to refugium to the return section.

or you could just make it flow through, and not worry too much about the exact flow. what do you want to put in the refugium? certain macroalgae will want more flow than others, but I'm not the best person to explain that topic.

goto www.reefland.com and goto articles by author. anthony calfo has some articles on 'choosing the best macroalgae', and it tells you some better information on flow etc.

[kgouso]

Not trying to hijack, but it is kind of in line with the thread.

The saying goes...the larger the better for a sump, but how big does the fuge need to be?

Does the fuge need to be like 20 gallon, or can you control a flow through a 5 gallon fuge (in a 30 gallon sump) and get beneficial filtration?

(off to read the article from the previous post)

[ljosh]

A tip that I can give you is make sure your heaters are in a section of the sump not affected by evaporation or water changes. Or else you will be sitting there doing some tank maintenance thinking to yourself "hmm what is that burning smell"

[RyanBrucks]

re: heaters in sump; that's a very good tip indeed!

as far as refugium size, it depends on what the purpose of your refugium is, ie what are you feeding?

calfo and others recommend ~20% of your display tank if you are wanting to use it to help feed corals or picky fish like mandarins. If you just want some macroalgae, then I don't think there is a minimum size. Keep in mind that the amount of nitrate reduction you see will likely be proportional to how much macroalgae you can grow. But at the same time, the more macroalgae you have, the more it will compete for the same nutrients in your water :) I think this is why its really hard for even an expert to say "you need X gallons in a refugium" since they have no real knowledge of the nutrients in your system.

that said, i think any refugium will probably be better than none, and can provide some nutrient export abilities. I imagine that having a refugium in the first place is the biggest leap, and then small gains are had thereafter by increasing the size.

somebody with more experience should verify that though.

[trr8288]

Where would be a good place to put the heaters in the sump then?

[Sk8r]

I put my heater in my fuge, which is chamber 2 of my sump; I raised my EV 120 skimmer on eggcrate to sit above chamber 4, with the pump in chamber 4 along with the return pump. This lets me have 20g of space in chamber 2 for a fuge...it is rife with tubeworms, rock, sand, and a huge cheato ball that acts as a filter sock: it's massive and tangled, and catches detritus as efficiently as most filter socks.

I also piped my skimmer effluent and all its bubbles back to chamber 1, which takes care of the microbubble issue: it all has to go back through the cheato ball to get to the return pump.

[Playa-1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11105445#post11105445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ljosh
A tip that I can give you is make sure your heaters are in a section of the sump not affected by evaporation or water changes. Or else you will be sitting there doing some tank maintenance thinking to yourself "hmm what is that burning smell"

Good point. I forget that not everyone uses ATO :)

*** Don't put heaters in the same compartment as your return pump....

[WDWDen]

What is macroalgea? I just build a sump with a center fuge. So far, I only have live sand in it. I will add a couple of small peices of my live rock and some cheato. Will macroalgea just start to grow in there?

[Fizz71]

Cheato _IS_ macroalgea. So are caulerpa racemosa (sp...grape macro), Halimeda (catcus), feather (don't remember the scientific name but I think it's a caulerpa as wall), red tang heaven (again I forget the name) and about a dozen other species available to the reefkeeper.

Chaetomorpha is easy to grow, control and trim so it's very popular and very sought after. I personally think grape grows faster and pulls more out of the water but comes at a higher risk.

Basically any algea that looks more like a weed you'd pull than slime you'de scrape off with a magnet cleaner would be macro. :)

--Fizz

[WDWDen]

Ok Fizz, I like the way you explained that. Now I know what to look for. Thanks!!