best BB skimmer

[olkeller]

i know best skimmer loaded question bubbleking usually the answer that you will get eventually but what is the best skimmer for a barebottom tank it will be 30x30x30 so about 100 gallons and with sump about 120 the tank is in the design phase so i am not limited exept i want one that is ozone resistant in case i decide to get some

[USC-fan]

budget??

its better to buy an ozone reactor then use your skimmer.

[Reef Sponger]

Next to Bubbleking, the H&S skimmers are great, both in construction and performance. You need a larger budget for an H&S, but not as bad a BK or Deltec. :D

[lamarine23]

Euro Reef RS Series.

[olkeller]

so you guys think needlewheels are the best i was thinking of bubbleking but i was under the impression that a becket style skimmer was best for a barebottom tank i knew i could make a needlewheel skimmer work but what is the perfect skimmer for wetskimming and way big for my tank

i thought running ozone through skimmer was the way to go what is the reason for not and using a reactor and what is an ozone reactor like the co2 reactors for a planted tank?

[USC-fan]

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4443/af796zj1.jpg

That is an ozone reactor.

Running ozone in the skimmer hurts the skimmers performance. Also when using an ozone reactor you can feed the output into a carbon reactor.

[hahnmeister]

Some people who run bare bottom run sumps with a high turnover to get the detritus out as fast as possible.... the overflow is fed to a skimmer and the skimmer removes alot of the hard organics so that a filter sock doesnt have to be used (which leaves things in the system until the sock is cleaned). So they like skimmers which can have a high turnover, and since becketts tend to have 5-8:1 water to air ratios, that means alot of water filtration... even if it doesnt result in that long of a dwell/contact time for the bubbles. You can also do the same with a tall, overflow fed recirc actually... the hard matter will get extracted because all of the overflow water must pass through the skimmer in a counter-current manner... you just have to size your skimmer to handle all your overflow water. So its really either-or in the end... just depends on how you do it.

This boarders on the whole DSB vs. BB debate, and bringing up such words around here will get you banned, so I will stop there... but with one tidbit from the EU...

The ideal many BB keepers employ is to extract all organic matter as fast as can be... leaving waste in the system for as little time as possible. This works for some, and not for others... its all relative IMO. I also think its a bit of 'paranoia'. There are other systems (no, not DSB) which endorse the buildup of mulm for feeding of corals... so leaving some detritus in the tank isnt a bad thing when you think about it. Pods also eat detritus, and fish and corals eat pods as well. The organics they give off... nitrates, phosphates, etc... are used by organisms, as well as your live rock... so its not like you need to be totally paranoid. FWIW, if you want to drop your nutrient levels that bad, you should be looking into other more proven chemical methods... prodobio, zeovit, ultralith. And even a host of chemicals used here in the US for years like purigen (takes these things right out, as well as the yellow). Dosing ethanol/sugar is another method which actually 'strips' the water and tank of organics very fast. In this neverending quest for 'the cleanest water possible' Klaus from Royal Exclusiv commented that all these methods (at the time, the discussion was about skimmers in particular... what could be done to enhance skimmer efficiency including taller, more air, and ozone) still dont result in removing the 'yellow' completely, and that German reefers use one method more than anything... water changes... lots of them. Gee... could it really be that simple?

[olkeller]

thanks for the input doing mine BB is not just for the nutrients but for the flow the ability to set up faster and the look. a year ago i wanted to do a overflow fed skimmer the only problem is that most of them have a low flow rate and i need like 8-10x flow through the sump about if i can do this i would for the simple quietness of it

[olkeller]

i agree with the paranoid statement in fact that is one of the benifits of BB because you can get more of the detritus floating around in tank for the corals to eat. and that is what a syphon is for.

sharing advice and experience on equipment and methods wont get any one banned fighting and attacking people will. i trust you guys to want to help and not fight right Although i remember getting caught up in the drama of those threads and i learned a ton from them

[hahnmeister]

Okay, putting the whole BB vs. DSB thing aside... you could do a overflow red recirc... it would just be rather large/tall to deal with the throughput from the overflow. A 10" diameter skimmer that is about 3' tall (or more) would work well with the throughput you mention.

[olkeller]

heh thanks just any 3 foot 10'' diameter one will work when they are that big are they all about the same prices. wouldn't they power and noise be about the same as one of the beckket style skimmers its date night and if i dont quit typing it could turn into fight night so i'll be back

[fishdoc11]

Your budget will basically determine the type of skimmer you get IMO assuming you aren't going to build it. Good becketts can be had for in the ~ $500 - $700 range while a good needlewheel with similar performance will cost ~ $1500 and up.
Chris

[hahnmeister]

Well, a beckett isnt a recirc, its a single pass, so it sits in your sump, and even though it has a high turnover, its not as if all the water is even going to get to the skimmer... it can flow right past in the sump.

This is a bit why the whole idea never really made the most sense to me. I would rather have a slower throughput overflow that gets fed directly into a recirc skimmer (actually, thats what I have). The turnover may not be as high (200-250gph for 125g), but Im passing 100% of the overflow water through the skimmer. The beckett, or any other single-pass skimmer, despite its higher turnover, cant claim that. If the overflow does 1000gph, and the skimmer even does 800gph... and there is no way to make all the water go through the skimmer... its pure luck that the beckett will actually have 1/2 the sump water run through it. Thats why to me, the only way to do it if you have a high overflow rate is to run it all through a massive recirc skimmer... but then its not like a 100g tank with a 1000g sump rate can actually produce enough waste to keep a recirc skimmer large enough to handle 1000gph through it busy. So its a big ???? Its why I always found the 'high turnover' overflows kind of useless. All it does is recirculate the stuff back into the tank more... unless you use filter socks or a settling chamber... two options which go against the whole BB idea it seems.

[fishdoc11]

My beckett isn't in the sump:) And I would guess it processes probably 80% of what passes through my sump.
Not really wanting to debate the facts that have been debated ad nauseam on here hahnmeister. Just wanted to make the point that both work well and that IMO a good needlewheel will cost much more than a comparable becket;) Both can work well for a BB although the predominate idea was the use of a beckett for a while.
That said when I do get the money I will probably give a nice needlewheel a try.

Chris

[hahnmeister]

Well, its not in your sump, but its part of that circuit of flow I would imagine (unless HOB or something). The critical thing is that it is fed only as well as the overflow can provide water. We also cant really know how much of that water, and the crap it contains, really goes through the skimmer, or just gets pumped back into the tank.

[magnoliarichj]

i love my etss. have a kent before and a aquaev before that

[olkeller]

i think the BB methodology is being misunderstood its not to have a perfectly clean system it is to have the ability to control how clean your system is through one of the biggest thing is what you said above water changes when i do a water change on my old 125 i would only get what was disolved in the water column i had an elevated sump and would get the stuff that was in there but anything on the sand i had to wait for it to get disolved into the water column or stired up and over the overflow into the sump to get it out. with the BB i can get it as i see it and the skimmer isn't going to get all of it out no matter what it will pull out as much as it can and i will have to get it all.

I sorry if that sounded like i'm arguing in a dsb BB debate i just felt like i was being misunderstood you guys have been an excellent source of info.

what would you think would be the best size needlewheel skimmer. and what would be the best beckket style skimmer for this tank.

[USC-fan]

DAS EX-3 would work well. Cost about $700 and its a recir NW.

[hahnmeister]

Yeah, but it only might process about 500gph as a recirc.

I was going to suggest using a tall recirc, perhaps something that sits next to the tank and it fed from the overflow. For 1000gph throughput, an 8" diameter. Then, for air, an alita AL40 force feeding one or two eheim pumps (or Quiet One 3000s) for 800-1000lph each. Heck, one eheim at 1000-1200lph would be plenty. 5" neck, maybe even a bubble plate. This skimmer would have the air throughput and water handling capacity to handle your tank easily. Something about 4' tall would be good. If any particles made it through to the sump I would be shocked.

[javajaws]

What olkeller said is right on the money. BB isn't about perfectly clean water, its about control of your water quality. And I think controlling the water quality is actually easier in a BB system than in a system with a DSB. Yes you need a good skimmer, but you don't have to think you need some super-duper skimmer just because its a BB tank. In fact, I think DSB systems would probably benefit more from a super-duper skimmer than a BB system would.

Just buy a good/respectable skimmer in your price range for a tank your size and move on...

FYI, I own a H&S appropriately sized for my tank.

[hahnmeister]

Maybe Im thinking of some elements of the 'Bomber-bottom' method which seemed to rely on particulate matter removal by the skimmer more. I suppose there are many interpretations of the BB method other than that.

I tried BB twice. I found that detritus still builds up in pockets... it weighs more than water, so it will find a way. Rather than building up on the sand, it would build up in the rocks more (where it could stick). My observation was that if I was going to have detritus in the tank anyways, I might as well provide it with a medium where it can be processed rather than left in open water to rot. So I settled on a SSB that I end up sucking out 1/8 the sand every month and giving a good cleaning to. This way, the sand can process (or rather, the pods, worms, snails, micro-stars, etc that wouldnt be there in a BB tank) the particulate matter because its not like I can or want to have to suck out the mulm every day or week. It gets processed in the sand, like a chemical sink, yes... but then I remove and clean that sink every once and a while so it cant build up.

As far as control over the water, yeah, thats a given. But equal and opposite, sand often provides more stability... so its a trade-off.

Okay, off the debate before we get in trouble. I suppose BB can be done with socks and sponges, or even detritus settling chambers.

[uhuru]

I have a DAS EX1 being fed the entire overflow volume of my 16g and over time particles definitely collect at the bottom of the skimmer and in the sump. It's easier to siphon out the sump than the skimmer so I'm going back to an in sump NW or a beckett for my 70g. I like the idea of a recirc taking 1000 gph but who makes a 4' skimmer that runs on an eheim that doesn't cost the same as a downpayment on a car??

Also detritus collecting in the rocks instead of the bottom has become a problem for me too. I use a turkey baster and blow it off all the time though. BB tanks are definitely not low maintenance, at least in my experience so far!

[USC-fan]

why don't you just feed the skimmer with a pump? That is how my DAS EX2 is installed...

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10966814#post10966814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Your budget will basically determine the type of skimmer you get IMO assuming you aren't going to build it. Good becketts can be had for in the ~ $500 - $700 range while a good needlewheel with similar performance will cost ~ $1500 and up.
Chris

nobodys mentioned the Reeflo yet? can be fed from overflow replacement pumps are reasonable. 1000g rating?

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10968712#post10968712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
nobodys mentioned the Reeflo yet? can be fed from overflow replacement pumps are reasonable. 1000g rating?


Your right....I'm really about 2 years behind on skimmers anyway because I've had to concentrate on learning about other things:)

Do you have a link to a site that sells Reeflo skimmers?

As far as dealing detritus in a BB I blow my rocks and everything else off in my tank with a powerhead every other week or so with a sock on my hoses to the sump left on for a day or so. Seems to work pretty well.

Chris

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10968953#post10968953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Your right....I'm really about 2 years behind on skimmers anyway because I've had to concentrate on learning about other things:)

Do you have a link to a site that sells Reeflo skimmers?

As far as dealing detritus in a BB I blow my rocks and everything else off in my tank with a powerhead every other week or so with a sock on my hoses to the sump left on for a day or so. Seems to work pretty well.

Chris
premium aquatics and i know salty critter sell it

here is the skimmer club
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1172064

this skimmer has been on the last two Reef Central TOTM if that means anything

its price is amazing my buddy just hooked his up and loves it.

[kodyboy]

I always thought ozone improved a skimmers perfomance not decreased it? I am incorrect to think this?

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10968984#post10968984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
premium aquatics and i know salty critter sell it

here is the skimmer club
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1172064

this skimmer has been on the last two Reef Central TOTM if that means anything

its price is amazing my buddy just hooked his up and loves it.

The one on PA is still $1300. Are there any cheaper ones that will outperform a $600 beckett?

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10969560#post10969560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
The one on PA is still $1300. Are there any cheaper ones that will outperform a $600 beckett?

there are two models the 200 is 800 and some change

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10969531#post10969531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kodyboy
I always thought ozone improved a skimmers perfomance not decreased it? I am incorrect to think this?

yea the ozone reduces the output of the skimmer put improves overall water clarity

[fishdoc11]

Thanks for the info. I have noticed them on the last 2 TOTM and was curious about them myself.
Chris

[abark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10970287#post10970287 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
yea the ozone reduces the output of the skimmer put improves overall water clarity

Could you please clarify this. I was always under the impression that O3 improved skimming efficiency by providing a more efficient bonding site through the high reactivity of ozone. Ozone is much more reactive than just providing an 'air' interface, and so it is more likely to "strip" organics out of the water.

I have never read that it decreases efficiency but if it does I would love to understand why.

[Shaun120]

I just set up a MRC-3R on my 225 tank that is BB but does not have anything in it except for live rock (taking it slow). It's a recirculating Beckett type. I just cleaned it a couple of days ago but considering that nothing is in the tank yet it sill pulls a little skimmate though.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee234/TBone_enoBT/DSC00825.jpg

[shelburn61]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10967818#post10967818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

I was going to suggest using a tall recirc, perhaps something that sits next to the tank and it fed from the overflow. For 1000gph throughput, an 8" diameter. Then, for air, an alita AL40 force feeding one or two eheim pumps (or Quiet One 3000s) for 800-1000lph each. Heck, one eheim at 1000-1200lph would be plenty. 5" neck, maybe even a bubble plate. This skimmer would have the air throughput and water handling capacity to handle your tank easily. Something about 4' tall would be good. If any particles made it through to the sump I would be shocked.

Seems like turbulence would be a problem with a 1000gph feed coming in at the top of the skimmer? If this was a DIY would you feed closer to the base of the skimmer?

[hahnmeister]

I was thinking it would have a 'Halo' style spraybar for the inlet water, or one of a few other methods of turbulence reduction for the incoming water... so the incoming water wouldnt just disrupt everything.