Phoenix 14k vs Giesemann 14.5k vs others...

[Ricimer]

Hi!
I would like to have your opinions, suggestions, experiences about DE bulbs in the 14-20k spectrum. I am currently using a 48" Giesemann lighting system (DE with Icecaps electronic ballasts) with two 250W Phoenix 14k, one daylight T5 (around 6500k) and one pure actinic T5.

I started with the default 13k Giesemann with 2 actinic plus. I then switched to the Phoenix DE bulbs and witnessed a significant improvement in blue, purple, and green coloration of corals. Bright pink coloration on the Pocillopora and Stylophora decreased at the same time tough. Those colors got back when I changed the T5 to the current set-up. I think the 6500k T5 is responsable for that. It also brings a nice balance to the ambiance/color of the lighting. I miss the blue dawn from the actinics tough. The pure actinic T5 is eclipsed by the daylight T5 and is almost unnoticeable (they can't be turned on separately...).

Anybody experienced both the Giesemann 14.5k and the Phoenix 14k and can give me a comparison? What about the Giesemann 20k? I would like to try something new in that range (14-20k) when I get to change my DE.

Many thanks!
Ricimer

[Ricimer]

Anyone!? Giesemann 14.5 vs Phoenix 14k?

[scaryperson27]

I would prefer the Phoenix over any other bulbs that i have seen but i haven't seen a Giesemann bulb.

[Ti]

try the iwasaki 14k

[klam114]

I've seen the Phoenix vs. Giesemann and Phoenix is bluer and pops color out more than Giesemann. For your T5, try one ATi Blue Plus in front and the UVL Atinic Plus in the back.

[hahnmeister]

The saki is almost identical to the pheonix... so I dont think you will get much there. The g-man is similar to the Ushio 14,000K... its like a 10,000k with some purple in the output (alot actually, but you just dont see it because of all the red/yellow/etc). I love this bulb though because all you have to do is add a blue+ T5 bulb to it, and its icey day-blue looking. Corals love it too.... red ones and blue ones...

Here is a pic of the ushio 14,000Ks with the blue+ T5s... the G-man is pretty much just a higher intensity ushio 14,000K looks wise...
http://web.mac.com/allongue/iWeb/Julie%20And%20JD%20Aquarium/General%20Views_files/DSC04726.jpg

[Fliger]

Giesemann 14.5K and Elos 10K bulbs are my favorite two DE bulbs. I also had the Ushio 14K but found these two to be more crisp. The most "pure" white bulbs I've ever used. Definitely the best color - as Hahn mentioned - a couple blue T5 tubes and you get it all. White/blue, great growth and great TRUE coloration. If you can supplement with four T5's - add a red tube and another blue tube. Perfect!

[bureau13]

I'm using Phoenix bulbs on an HQI ballast right now, and while I do generally like it, I don't like what its done to pinks...they almost look bluish. I'm supplementing with 4x39W UVL Superactinics, but my fixture is 4x250W HQI....I find the 4 HQI tend to drown out the T5s. I originally had AB 10K HQI and Blue+ T5, but the AB is a bit yellowish, which was too much for the T5s to overcome. Sanjay's plots indicate a sub-10K color temp for the G'man bulbs, so I sort of assumed they'd also have this "warm" look and wouldn't pop colors. For those of you who have it, do you feel that, without blue supplemental lights, its really white, or does it have that warm yellow tint that so many 10K bulbs have?

jds

[oct2274]

bureau13, add one 3000k T5 GE bulb from reef geek to your T5 setup to give your reds and pinks back a bit.

[bureau13]

Interesting, never thought about that. Now, I have a front and back row of 2 T5s each...so I'd have to replace 2 actinics with 2 3000K bulbs, right? You don't think that would be too much of...what is that color, bright yellow? I may have to look into that. God, I wish I had more rows of T5s to experiment with!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10452230#post10452230 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oct2274
bureau13, add one 3000k T5 GE bulb from reef geek to your T5 setup to give your reds and pinks back a bit.

[hahnmeister]

the pheonix is a very monochromatic bulb... its lots of blue, but little else.. no actinic even really. I got sick of it, and as mentioned, the best supplimental bulb I found was to run a true actinic/super actinic T5 and a sun bulb... this bulb actually needs supplimental 'daylight' or all the corals end up fading out and looking 'chalky'...

As for the color of the Ushio and G-man 14,000Ks (which I find to look the same), it really depends on the tank. These bulbs are very daylight/10,000K, but with a strong actinic output... stronger than any other bulb out there actually. If you stare at the bulb, it looks purple even. But all that daying in the bulb means that it really depends on how clear you keep your water. I can have the bulb on a tank with heavy skimming, carbon, etc... and it will look crisp and almost blue. If the tank has just the slightest tint to it, it seems that this bulb really picks up the yellow in the water very easily and the bulb looks like a 10,000K, and needs the T5s to look better. FWIW, the only thing this bulb lacks is a nice blue spike, so with the addition of just a blue T5 bulb, this is perhaps the best bulb on the market as far as output/watt, growth and spectrum as far as the corals are concerned, and color as far as the viewer is concerned.

[oct2274]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10452693#post10452693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bureau13
Interesting, never thought about that. Now, I have a front and back row of 2 T5s each...so I'd have to replace 2 actinics with 2 3000K bulbs, right? You don't think that would be too much of...what is that color, bright yellow? I may have to look into that. God, I wish I had more rows of T5s to experiment with!

just use one 3000k bulb only. leave 3 blue bulbs in. the 3000k bulbs will be yellow so you will want the extra blue in there to offset it.

[bureau13]

I've tried using different bulbs in the front row from the back row of T5s, but never side to side differences. If I use just the one 3000K that will be on one side or the other. Won't that make half the tank look different? Are they diffuse enough that that won't matter?

jds

[oct2274]

are you saying that have 2 bulbs on the left and two bulbs on the right? If that is how they are than you might not want to do this cause i think that 2 3000k bulbs might be a bit to yellow. you could try two 6500k ge bulbs. The bulbs are really cheap at reefgeek. I would just try things till you get the colors you want.

[bureau13]

Right, its a six foot fixture with a single row of 2 T5s in the front, and another row of 2 in the back. 6500 may be a nice compromise since I'll have 2.

Thanks,
jds

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10456985#post10456985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oct2274
are you saying that have 2 bulbs on the left and two bulbs on the right? If that is how they are than you might not want to do this cause i think that 2 3000k bulbs might be a bit to yellow. you could try two 6500k ge bulbs. The bulbs are really cheap at reefgeek. I would just try things till you get the colors you want.

[Ricimer]

The Phoenix is a lot of blue indeed. That's why I started to use supplemental 6500k daylight G-mann T5 to balance things or else the pinks fade away. Problem is that I miss my Blue T5 then especially for the dusk/dawn effect.

What is a red T5 bulb BTW? Is that the 3000k?

I wish I had 4 T5s instead of just 2 on my 48" G-mann... I like my lighting system but I wish I could do something about it. I wish I could modify it to accomodate 2 more T5s...

After reading you guys I think next time I change bulbs I'll go for 2x 14.5K 250w DE G-mann + 2 actinic plus T5 and see what it does.

[Ricimer]

Hahnmeister,
I like best the color a 10k gives to a tank, but I dont like the coloration the corals get then. When I had a 13k G-mann, my digitatas were brown. Now with the Phoenix 14k they became bright blue within a few weeks. But on the other hand the Pocillopora lost much of their bright pink color. Do you think I would be able to keep my digitatas blue AND the Pocilloporas bright pink with the use of those 14.5k G-mann (+ 2 T5 pure actinics then)? Even better if at the same time they seam less monochromatic than those Phoenix. While bulbs in the higher spectrum (15-20k) give nice coloration to the corals I think they make the tank look uniform and somewhat dull (personnal taste). It doesn't even reflect the natural aspect of the biotope we reproduce (very shallow waters), right?

[hahnmeister]

Yeah, I hear what you are saying about the higher K bulbs. I did pheonix for a year, then did the EVC 20,000K for a year. I used an icecap with the pheonix and bumped up to a PFO M80 with the EVC to make up for the lower output (but EVCs have the highest output for a 20,000K... look just like a pheonix, but with a bit more actinic purple to the mix... and therefore red too). This solved things for a while, but I still found something missing.

I have a buddy who started with the 2x250wattDE Ushio 10,000Ks and 4x54wattT5s over his 120g years ago (gopack). He hosted a few meetings, and since then, many others in the club have made the switch as well. His colors were awesome. Every coral too... not just blue or green... every coral. You know that faded pastel look some T5 tanks have? Or rather, Ive seen some heavily lit halide/SPS tanks look like that as well. Anyways... then, you know how you get those intense dark/vibrant contrasting colors with halides? Okay... now combine them together. WOW. FWIW, gopack's parameters were off as well (he had no reactor or dosing methods then compared to the reactors and dosing he does now). The corals were just electric.

The other great change I saw was when gypsy changed his 150g from 3xradium 20,000Ks with 2x 6' VHO actinics. Talk about everything being purple no matter what it really was. Sure, the tank looked cool... but everything was blue or purple no matter what. When he changed to the maristar (these are the pics labelled 'new' in the link) he used ushio 250wattDE 14,000Ks with ATI blue+ T5s.

http://web.mac.com/allongue/iWeb/Julie%20And%20JD%20Aquarium/General%20Views.html

The resuts were astounding. Not only did he cut his electric by a good amount, but he kept the blue, but added some daylight to the mix. The corals that he has kept in that tank for so long that nobody knew about... WOW! Yellow w/ red tips, green with red polyps, etc... you never would have known before. The end look is pretty 'ice-day' as you can see...
http://web.mac.com/allongue/iWeb/Julie%20And%20JD%20Aquarium/General%20Views_files/slideshow.html?slideIndex=13

He only has two rows of T5s to work with, so he kept the T5 to blue, and the ushio actually has more actinic in its output than any other halide, so that base is covered as well (he just doesnt have after-hours actinics for viewing). The corals love it, and the look is very cool.

Since the 120g, go pack has started his 320g. It uses the exact same light setup... just one more halide and 2 more T5s (exact same ratio and bulbs though)...
http://www.wisconsinreefsociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=205
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/billsreef100.jpg

As you may tell, there is slightly more yellow to his water. This may be just do to his tank being newer though.

You can also see my combo... which is a single 250wattDE Ushio 14,000K on a light rail with 4x54wattT5s...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/111wholetank.jpg
The thread is here...
http://www.wisconsinreefsociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91

[Ricimer]

Thanks !
So to sum up things, you recommend either the Ushio 14k or the G-mann 14.k or the Ushio 10k, right?
It would be fine to supplement with 2 T5 pure actinics with any of these I guess.

[hahnmeister]

They look the same to me, although in 250wattDE, the G-man is considerably brighter for some reason (odd, considering they are made by Ushio). I think that one person's opinion vs. another about how blue or yellow they are depends more on water clarity than anything... there is alot of everything with these bulbs. They only need the blue T5s to make them a complete spectrum (with alot of blue) thats easy on the eyes.

[Ricimer]

Thanks!

[Ricimer]

Hi! I had an idea for my next set up when I upgrade my 90 gal to a 6 foot 220 gal:

2x250w HQI in the 14/15k range
2x150w HQI in the 5500/6500k range
6x80w T5 consisting in 4 pure actinic and 2 actinic+

I would pair each 250w 14k with a 150w 6000k (i.e. placed as close as possible to one another for better blending of the light spectrums...). Aquascaping would be two mounds of LR. So over each mound there would be the equivalent of a 400w HQI consisting of a 150w 6000k + a bluer 250w...
The 150w 6000k would light up only for 2 or 3 hours in the middle of the day. The 250w for about 9-10 hours and the T5s for 12 hours with an independant control for each of them for a perfect dusk/dawn effect.

Should provide nice color for both blue and pink corals AND good growth and nice light variations along the day...
What do you think of this idea?

Ricimer

[rleechb]

FWIW, I've run both the phoenix and the 14k Iwasaki. They are very different to the eye (spectral plots may be somewhat similar). I hated the iwasaki at first, but I love it now that my eyes have become accustomed the much, much white color. Here's a quick comparison shot from a while back:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l170/rleechb/saki_phoenix_actinic_01.jpg

Iwasaki is on the left, phoenix on the right. Compare the colors on the very sides of the tank; it's a 3 foot tank, so there's quite a bit of blending in the middle.

By the way, I run the iwasaki's with two T5 actinics; the bulb color is far too white otherwise.

[ksed]

Hahnmeister,

I'm currently running 2x250watt megachrome marine which is a 13000k bulb on a 125 gallon 24" high with sps corals. I'm debating whether to go with a Geis. coral 14500k with 2 actincs or go with more intensity, xm 10000k . In order to get the color that I want I may need to go with 4 t5 actinics. Other than a higher par I don't have any feed back on the xm bulb.Also I've noticed that the Gies.coral 14500k bulb on Sanjay web has a higher par than xm and the marine 13000k. I managed to call my rep. at Gies he said that the marine is a higher intensity bulb?

Thanks for your help
Kevin

[hahnmeister]

the G-man 14,500K is light a brighter, slightly crisper version of the ushio 14,000K. It is a monster with the output. I have no doubt that its output is more than the 13,000K. I would use it over the XM in a heartbeat despite the cost... unless the output is too much (in my case, a G-man 14,500K scorches my corals, so I opted for the Ushio 14,500K instead.

[Ricimer]

Hahnmeister,
What do you think about my combo idea? Is it silly? Any benifit in mixing bulbs like 250w G-mann 14.5k with a 150w 5500-6500k (or other combination) instead of a single 400w (or 250w)?
Are 6xT5 80w actinics overkill?

[hahnmeister]

No benefit of mixing the bulbs... I wouldnt do it myself. The G-man is a fine bulb on its own.

Are 6x80wattT5 actinics overkill for what?

[Emster]

I love my phoenix 14k on a HQI ballast. IMO it has just the right blue and makes the corals pop without any actinic needed. On my display tank I have aquaconnect 14k SE with actinics to get the corals to pop. I can't say enough good about the phoenix on HQI.

[recife111]

I have used both the gieseman bulbs and the blv 14k.

They both seem to be the same bulb.

[ZippyBoy]

Hey Jon,

How often are you changing out your bulbs?

I run my G Megechrome Corals about 12 hr/day on Sunlight Supply ballasts.

[Ricimer]

After reading you replies and other infos, I have been rethinking the whole thing and here is what I will try:
2X 250W DE 14.5k Megachrome (Giesemann)
using Sunlight Supply Reef Optix III+ reflectors and the PFO-HQI (ANSI -M80) magnetic ballast
4 (or 6?) T5 80W : half pure actinic and half actinic +

[Ricimer]

Hi!
One week ago I finally changed my 250w DE bulbs (10 months since last change) and went from the Phoenix 14k to the G-mann 14.5k What an improvement! You were perfectly right
hahnmeister! The general visual impact is great immediately: color of the corals and color of the whole tank (ambiance). It is very white, very 10k like, wich I like. Not yellowish at all of course. I tought I would wait at least a month before giving you feedback to see the possible change in the pigmentation of the corals. No need to wait, this also improved in a little week. I expected to have my pinks back but was not expecting much with blue pigments. Mistake: even the blues improved. My blue M. digitatas are bluer than ever and even has reddish-violet hues on the basis wich makes great contrasts with the clear blue of the polyps. This is it, I am keeping those G-mann 14.5k forever. No more experiences for me.
Regarding the T5 actinics I have tried to use only pure-actinics but it was too purple and unnatural looking (ugly). I changed to half pure actinic and half actinic + and it's perfect. Richer color than actinic+ alone.
Thanks!
Ricimer

[wildjoe]

Not to hijack the thread but rleechb's tank has me still undecided as to whether to go with a 1x250w hqi - 4xT5 combo rather than a 2x150 hqi - 2 xT5 combo. I am setting up a 36" wide tank (lps and soft only) and from this this thread, it seems that I'll get as much out of a 24" fixture with 4 T5's and 1 hqi as I would a 36" fixture with 2x150 hqi and 2 T5 fixtures. What do you guys think? From what I've researched the 14k (giesemann or phoenix)hqi is definitiely what I'll be going with.

[Ricimer]

I now have a 4' tank. I am planning to upgrade to a 6' tank in a couple years. When I do so I will still keep 2 HQI DE 250w. I wont go for 3 HQI. I will be looking for 6 T5 instead of 2 tough. Similar tought as yours with your 36" and only one HQI. If I were you I would go for the 1xHQI and 4xT5. Gives you more possibilities and good options for the LPS at the edge of the tanks. I strongly recommend the G-mann 14.5k over the Phoenix. I would not go back to the Phoenix even if they were given to me for free! Not that they were bad, but I would not want to miss what the G-mann 14.5 gives me. And with the 10k look it has I am convinced growth will be faster. To be continued...

[rpeeples]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11421785#post11421785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ricimer
Hi!
One week ago I finally changed my 250w DE bulbs (10 months since last change) and went from the Phoenix 14k to the G-mann 14.5k What an improvement! You were perfectly right
hahnmeister! The general visual impact is great immediately: color of the corals and color of the whole tank (ambiance). It is very white, very 10k like, wich I like. Not yellowish at all of course. I tought I would wait at least a month before giving you feedback to see the possible change in the pigmentation of the corals. No need to wait, this also improved in a little week. I expected to have my pinks back but was not expecting much with blue pigments. Mistake: even the blues improved. My blue M. digitatas are bluer than ever and even has reddish-violet hues on the basis wich makes great contrasts with the clear blue of the polyps. This is it, I am keeping those G-mann 14.5k forever. No more experiences for me.
Regarding the T5 actinics I have tried to use only pure-actinics but it was too purple and unnatural looking (ugly). I changed to half pure actinic and half actinic + and it's perfect. Richer color than actinic+ alone.
Thanks!
Ricimer

Would you be able to post some standard pics of the tank so we can see the output of the G14.5K's?

[Ricimer]

Here is the picture. I dont know how good an impression a photo can give tought. Especially with a size limit of 50k...
Have a look and tell me your impression...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/82472IMG_1604_2.jpg

[Ricimer]

In fact it does look fairly acurate, except for the purple reflection on the pendant.

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11422268#post11422268 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wildjoe
Not to hijack the thread but rleechb's tank has me still undecided as to whether to go with a 1x250w hqi - 4xT5 combo rather than a 2x150 hqi - 2 xT5 combo. I am setting up a 36" wide tank (lps and soft only) and from this this thread, it seems that I'll get as much out of a 24" fixture with 4 T5's and 1 hqi as I would a 36" fixture with 2x150 hqi and 2 T5 fixtures. What do you guys think? From what I've researched the 14k (giesemann or phoenix)hqi is definitiely what I'll be going with.

How long is the tank and when you say "fixture" are you referring to an off the shelf combination HQI + T5 fixture (and which one) or are you talking about a DIY, seperate reflector for the halide and T5 Retro kit that you build yourself?

[recife111]

I think the Giesemann bulbs are identical to BLV. They look the same when you put them side by side and on my tank they were Identical in output.

The Giesemann coral bulb is very bright does seem to wash out many of the colours.

[Ricimer]

It is an off the shelf Giesemann combination HQI + T5 fixture: 2T5 (one actinic+ and one pure actinic) + 250w DE with icecaps electronic ballasts.
I strongly disagree with what you wrote about washing out the colors recife111: in my tank the phoenix washed out the colors a bit because it was too monochromatic. The G-mann is clearly bringing back the color contrasts.

[wildjoe]

The tank I'm setting up is a 58 Oceanic RR that is 36" wide. The 2 "off the shelf" fixtures I'm considering are the Elos Planet II and the Giesemann Infiniti. Since the fixture will be hung a few inches above the tank I'm hoping that the spread from a 250w with the 4 T5's will be enough for the remaining 6" on each side. I'm thinking this will also give some range in intensity for the LPS and soft corals I'm planning on keeping.

[Ricimer]

It is an off the shelf Giesemann combination HQI + T5 fixture: 2T5 (one actinic+ and one pure actinic) + 250w DE with icecaps electronic ballasts.
I strongly disagree with what you wrote about washing out the colors recife111: in my tank the phoenix washed out the colors a bit because it was too monochromatic. The G-mann is clearly bringing back the color contrasts.
The tank is 2 and 1/2 years old.

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11439525#post11439525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wildjoe
The tank I'm setting up is a 58 Oceanic RR that is 36" wide. The 2 "off the shelf" fixtures I'm considering are the Elos Planet II and the Giesemann Infiniti. Since the fixture will be hung a few inches above the tank I'm hoping that the spread from a 250w with the 4 T5's will be enough for the remaining 6" on each side. I'm thinking this will also give some range in intensity for the LPS and soft corals I'm planning on keeping.

Those are both supposed to be nice fixtures but they do have smallish reflectors for the halides like most combos. You wont get a full 36" spread with high intensity but I can see that you already realize this ... so keep high light lovers from the ends like you intend to do. The thing with T5 reflectors though is that they dont really throw any intense light beyond the ends of the bulbs, only throughout the length of the reflector. So, they arent going to contribute much to adding par to the 6 inches on either end. That's going to be all on what the halide reflector is able to throw. But it sounds like you know the limitations so you know what you have to work with.

Any thoughts on a 36" long combo with a single center halide but full length T5's? Do anyone make one in the class of the two 24" units you are considering?

[wildjoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11439795#post11439795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarG
Those are both supposed to be nice fixtures but they do have smallish reflectors for the halides like most combos. You wont get a full 36" spread with high intensity but I can see that you already realize this ... so keep high light lovers from the ends like you intend to do. The thing with T5 reflectors though is that they dont really throw any intense light beyond the ends of the bulbs, only throughout the length of the reflector. So, they arent going to contribute much to adding par to the 6 inches on either end. That's going to be all on what the halide reflector is able to throw. But it sounds like you know the limitations so you know what you have to work with.

Any thoughts on a 36" long combo with a single center halide but full length T5's? Do anyone make one in the class of the two 24" units you are considering?

There are several 36" fixtures and the 2 I also researched were the Maristar and Sunpod HQI/T5 combos. If I do decide to go that route it would be the Maristar 2x150w + 2 T5 model. The Maristar is the closest thing I have seen in the Elos/Giesemann class but I still like the looks of those better. It seems that there are trade offs for every piece of equipment I'm considering so once my stand is finished being built I'll have to bite the bullet and make a decision.

[DarG]

No, I was talking about a 36" fixture with a single halide plus the full length T5's. I know there are plenty of dual halide 36" lomg fixtures.

[Sudad]

Hi all,

I also use the Giesemann MegaChrome Coral 14.500 K (250 Watt) now. I never used the phoenix before so I can't judge it.

About the Giesemann I'm very content with the colours of my corals and it looks very natural, like sun is shining in your tank - but not yellow. Little similar to the "BLV Ushio Group" bulbs.

Not too much blue and not too much purple like other bulbs with 14.500 K. Just white and very bright.

I can't believe that it is a 14.500 K bulb, because other bulbs are often very dark and blue with 14.500 K (e.g. Aquaconnect performance).
But this bulb is so bright like a 10.000 K or 12.000 K bulb - but without the ugly yellow tint. But you should care that your water is crystal clear - otherwise it would enhance your yellow tint of the water.

I use this bulb (250 Watt) in combination with 4 x T5 24 Watt ATI Blue Plus. For me it looks better than with the Giesemann T5 actinic+. My lightning system is a Giesemann Infiniti. In my opinion the Giesemann (250 Watt) needs the addition of 4x24 Watt T5 Blue bulbs. So I wouldn't combine it with some daylight bulbs or 50/50 bulbs. Maybe with some pure actinics.

My stylophora pistilata and poccilopora became intensive pink with the Giesemann.

Note: The first 1-2 days (20 hours) the bulb is very yellow (like an 10.000 K bulb), but at the 3rd day it changes its colour to white with a tint of blue. So, don't be disappointed the first day - just wait 1-2 days and you would be surprised how cool it looks.

Sudad

[Ricimer]

Many persons seem to think the ATI actinics (blue + and pure actinic) are better than the g-mann. I'm going to give it a try next time I change my T5.

[DarG]

Try the UVL Super Actinic if you are going to try a 420nm actinic.

[Ricimer]

BTW is there a difference visually between a 420nm and a 440nm actinic? 440nm is supposed to be the real actinic, right?

[dkle]

I think 420 nm is the true actinic, which gives off a purple color. The 460 nm bulbs give off a bluer color and pop the blue and red color a bit better in my opinion.

I ran 250w DE Ushio 10k and AB 10k before. They were too yellow for my taste. I switched to Phoenix a few years ago and never look back. To me it gives a perfect light, which is a crisp white with just a hint of blue to highlight the acros. Of course, this is all personal taste.

However, I read this entire thread and thought to myself: G-man sounds really good, I really should look into this. A quick plug into Sanjay's website show:
Bulbs w/Icecap ballast PPFD shielded Not shielded

G-man megachrome 13k 63 79
G-man coral 13k 71 88
Phoenix 73 90

Did I miss something about the monster output of the G-man? or Did Sanjay not test the G-man bulbs that you guys are talking about?

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11566360#post11566360 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dkle
I think 420 nm is the true actinic, which gives off a purple color. The 460 nm bulbs give off a bluer color and pop the blue and red color a bit better in my opinion.

I ran 250w DE Ushio 10k and AB 10k before. They were too yellow for my taste. I switched to Phoenix a few years ago and never look back. To me it gives a perfect light, which is a crisp white with just a hint of blue to highlight the acros. Of course, this is all personal taste.

However, I read this entire thread and thought to myself: G-man sounds really good, I really should look into this. A quick plug into Sanjay's website show:
Bulbs w/Icecap ballast PPFD shielded Not shielded

G-man megachrome 13k 63 79
G-man coral 13k 71 88
Phoenix 73 90

Did I miss something about the monster output of the G-man? or Did Sanjay not test the G-man bulbs that you guys are talking about?


The giesemann coral 13K (which is actually the 14.5) has a ppfd of 126 on the magnetic HQI ballast. Your are getting the 88 on an electronic ballast. The M80 ballast is the ballast that the bulb is spec'd to run on. 126 ppfd is the true output and just one very good example why DE lamps should be run on their spec, HQI magnetic ballasts.

BTW, I ran Phoenix 250 watt lamps for a little while. They were very very blue on both the magnetic and electronic ballasts. Far, far bluer than the Iwasaki 14000K which is actually a very crisp white bulb and an excellent choice for anyone wanting a 250 watt DE with good par, absolutely no yellow and just a slight hint of blue.

I know I have said this before in another thread but there are just too many different descriptions of the Phoenix bulbs in terms of color that I think it goes beyond individual perceptions. I think that some runs of the Phoenix bulbs are actually bluer than others. Either that or there are far more people who are color blind to blue than would seem possible. The Phoenix bulbs I had could have been branded TY-D-Bowl and it would have been a perfect name :rolleye1:

[dkle]

I see! My setup uses Icecap ballast; and the setup discussed in this thread uses Icecap as well. That's why I've been using the Icecap data. But thanks for clearing that up! If I am ever to change my ballast to HQI, I'll give the G-man bulbs a chance.

As far as how blue the phoenix bulbs are, it is merely a matter of personal taste. I like the way mine looks, you don't like yours; and that's ok. What is important is that the readers of the thread hear from both sides so that they can make an informed decision. And I would say that unless you run the true HQI ballast, the Gman bulbs don't offer any advantage in terms of PPFD.

How much do the Gmann bulbs cost by the way? I did a quick search on the net and didn't see any vendors that sell them.

[DarG]

The Giesemann lamps are very expensive, over 100 bucks each at most dealers.

Yes, the color of a lamp and how whether we like it or not is a personal choice, no doubt. But I was referring to the fact that some users state that the Phoenix is blue, others say white with a slight blue tint. What I was saying is that I dont think that the Phoenix lamps color is consistent. I think that some runs of the Phoenix bulbs are different color than other runs. I could be wrong but there just seems to be too much of a difference between different users color descriptions of these bulbs. I think that it is more than just peoples different perceptions of the color. There are many popular bulbs that seem to be described very similarly by different people in terms of color. The Phoenix is often described very differently by different users. I dont think that they are consistently the same color.

If one is going to run DE lamps with electronic ballasts to save energy, they may as well just go to single ended lamps. Thats my opinion anyway. There are many DE lamps that have a signifigant higher output on the Magentic HQI ballasts versus an electronic. Almost every DE lamp has higher par on magentic HQI, it's just the degree of increase that differs depending on the particular bulb. You may save some money running them on electronic but you arent getting the most out of the lamp. Electronics run most SE lamps fine, but on DE's you get more par for the extra energy used by Magnetic HQI ballasts.

[Ricimer]

I also use Icecaps electronic ballasts for my DE bulbs (am going to switch to HQI magnetic ballast when I move and upgrade to 220gal...) and to the eye the light output of the G-mann 14.5k is much higher than the Phoenix. I seems much more intense. I liked the Phoenix too, but the difference in intensity is obvious. I know it's not reflected by the values reported by dkle, but that's just how it looks. Same impression when my girlfriend came back from work and saw the new bulbs (G-mann), she was astonished by the increased intensity compared to the Phoenix.

[DarG]

Well if im not mistaken the human eye is not as keen at seeing the blue lighting. The Giesemann is a whiter bulb so even though it may be the same or lower par than the Phoenix on Icecap ballast, it makes sense that it would be perceived as brighter than the bluer Phoenix bulb. Again, assuming that I remember correctly regarding us not being as sensitive to the blue spectrum.

[Ricimer]

Yes, I think you're right about this.

[jefft321]

Would you recommend the Gmann 13K, or Iwasaki 14K.
for a 2 x 250 watt HQI MH. I was also thinking of the XM 10K. Which has the highest par and best lookon an HQI ballast. I don't want yellow, or too Blue. White with a little blue would be ok. I have 4 x 54 watt T5's to suppliment Actinic.

[wildjoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11566727#post11566727 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarG
The giesemann coral 13K (which is actually the 14.5) has a ppfd of 126 on the magnetic HQI ballast. Your are getting the 88 on an electronic ballast. The M80 ballast is the ballast that the bulb is spec'd to run on. 126 ppfd is the true output and just one very good example why DE lamps should be run on their spec, HQI magnetic ballasts.

BTW, I ran Phoenix 250 watt lamps for a little while. They were very very blue on both the magnetic and electronic ballasts. Far, far bluer than the Iwasaki 14000K which is actually a very crisp white bulb and an excellent choice for anyone wanting a 250 watt DE with good par, absolutely no yellow and just a slight hint of blue.

I know I have said this before in another thread but there are just too many different descriptions of the Phoenix bulbs in terms of color that I think it goes beyond individual perceptions. I think that some runs of the Phoenix bulbs are actually bluer than others. Either that or there are far more people who are color blind to blue than would seem possible. The Phoenix bulbs I had could have been branded TY-D-Bowl and it would have been a perfect name :rolleye1:

now I'm starting to get completely confused. You refer to the coral 13k as actually being the 14.5k and the Marinedepot website lists the Megachrome as the 14.5k. I am thinking about going with the Giesemann 14.5k instead of the phoenix because I'm not looking for that blue I have been seeing on the tank shots posted. I'll be going with a 150w DE hqi with an electronic ballast so what would be the difference between the coral and the megachrome?

[DarG]

The 13K coral on sanjays site is actually the 14.5K Megachrome ... from what I have been told anyway. This is for the 250 watt DE lamps. I have no idea about the 150 watt or SE versions.

[Tylt33]

So for those of you that have the Giesemann 14.5k Coral Megachrome, what ballast are you running these with? I'm trying to decide if the Blue Wave 7 or the PFO 250 HQI is the way to go (both are M80 I believE). Either way I'd be using a Dual ballast (the ones that are set up to run two HQI Bulbs). Are there better ballasts out there for these bulbs?

[Tylt33]

And where did you find the Giesemann bulbs online??? I've looked everywhere!