For those thinking of taking something home

[airinhere]

I recently put in an inquiry to find out what the real situation is regarding collecting specimens and then taking them home. My personal opinion about this is that its okay to do within the limits of the law. And now I recieve my first response regarding what that law really is.

Thank you for contacting the Division of Management Authority of the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service. We welcome your comments and feedback. Your
inquiry will be forwarded to a Management Authority staff person for an
answer. Please be patient.

The Division of Management Authority is responsible for implementing the
Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and
Flora (CITES) within the United States. Such implementation includes
monitoring trade in CITES-listed species to ensure that trade is
sustainable; reviewing permit applications for import, export and
re-export of CITES-listed species; consulting with other Countries on
CITES-related issues; and representing the United States at Conferences of
the Parties and Committee meetings. The Management Authority also
implements portions of the Endangered Species Act, Wild Bird Conservation
Act, Marine Mammal Protection Act, and Lacey Act.

If you are interested in more information about the Division of Management
Authority or CITES, please visit our website at
http://international.fws.gov/. We are also available at 1/800/358-2104.

You may want to also visit the Convention on International Trade in
Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) website at
http://www.CITES.org

My particular inquiry regarded that I am going to be doing some scuba diving in the near future and would like to bring home some organisms for my personal aquariums. I do not want to break laws and want to know exactly what is allowed and what permits I would need to legally bring home some of the life I come across. I think this is something that would interest others on these forums, so I am sharing my results.

if anyone has traveled and then brought home some of the corals, sponges, etc (Legally) I would be interested in hearing about your experiences and what places you might have gone to.

[stevemc]

It mainly depends on where you will be collecting. If in Florida, there is fairly clear laws on this, limits, and things that cant be taken, and licenses. I live in Florida, and do collect legally.

[billsreef]

Keep in mind, it's just not the US laws you need to consider for bringing stuff back into this country, but the laws of where your diving in regards to both collecting and exporting.

[jpenwell]

i just brought some stuff back from guam where i did some diving. well all i TRIED to bring back was some snails with really nice shells. anyways i figured if i put them in a tupperware container theyw ould be fine on a little 3 hr flight. i put them in my suitcase for check in. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone (about 10) all dead :( all i have now are some really nice shells. just make sure you have a good plan on doing it. hope this helps a little

[airinhere]

I am currently looking at maybe going to the Solomon Islands. (Or somewhere else in the Coral Sea). Still waiting to hear from the FWS. I figure I need to get copies of whatever paperwork I will need in advance, And copies of the laws or regs governing my activities for Both countries. Still has to be easier than setting up a calcium reactor.

The real hard part is keeping the organisms alive after I find them while I wait to come home. And I think I have a good solution. Breathable bags. You fill them completely full of water, tie your corals to a piece of styrofoam inside them and then keep them in a cool place. The bags allow oxygen to enter them from the air. I read about them and they seem like a perfect solution. If they also work immersed in water, I would just need a crabtrap hanging into the water with the openings screened off to keep the bags in, and they should stay aerated, cool and healthy until I pack them up in a styrofoam box and check them with my luggage for my plane ride home.

Anyone else ever tried something like this?

[billsreef]

If you've a spot where you can keep critters in the water hanging off a dock, I'd recommend using plastic screw top jars or deli cups that have had many holes poked in them for good water exchange. The breathing bags are bit flimsy and I wouldn't expect them to hold out jostling around in a crab trap. If you don't have a spot to hang them in the water, some amquel, large coolers, and air pumps will do the trick to hold things in your hotel room. Lots of water changes too ;) The breathing bags are good for the plane ride home, but the box cannot be sealed tight so that the box itself can breath. This could pose a problem with the airline if they want things sealed water tight. So check with your intended airline as well ;)

[fishome25]

You will not be allowed to take any hard coral, any soft coral attached to live rock, or tridacna clam. You might be able to figure out a way to bring back fish, inverts, or unattached softies. If you do figure it out let us know.

[airinhere]

Okay everybody, I got another reply from the FWS. Seems like I can bring back anything I like as long as it is collected legally from the places I visit. Looks like this might be easier than I thought.

Full e-mail I recieved.

You will need to comply with the regulations of the country you are
visiting. Permit will be required from that country to import the corals
and any other specimens that may be listed under the Convention on
Internetional Trade in Endangered Species. No permits should be required
from the U.S. but you will be required to declare all wildlife items to
the USFWS inspector at the time of import.

[thor32766]

interesting info

[fishome25]

the thing with CITES is you need someone that is qualified to certify that the animal was collected in a certain way, for example it won't hurt the current population. So it will be harm for you to collect you own stuff.

[airinhere]

Fishome, do you know where I could find any information regarding the collection policies for CITES?

I am waiting on a reply from the Solomon Islands Government regarding their particular rules for collection and intend to have a copy of the material I recieve from them and the US government when or if I end up being able to do this.

I am finding a whole lot of things that people tell me are wrong. Seems that this could actually be a fairly simple process.

Many people are personally against such activities however and I am concerned that this has spurned many of the wrong ideas we often hear.

My intent is to cut through all the gossip and lies and find out what the real deal is and provide anyone else who reads this with the ability to look up the same information I am having to.

No fun being me having to do this the hard way, but I know I would have been thrilled to find a thread like this even if it ends up confirming the idea that this just isnt possible.

Everyone claims its not possible, but the more I look, it seems like its not only possible, but potentially very simple.

[fishome25]

Sorry I don't. I'm pretty much just repeating what a couple wholesaler/importer buddies have told me.
I'm not against it. In fact if you actually do find a way I'd love to know it. I've tried to figure it out for myself but have pretty much ran into dead ends.

[airinhere]

As soon As I hear from the Solomon Islands Gov, I will know what all is involved. According to the e-mail I recieved from the FWS You just have to declare the corals when you come into the country.

I think it's really just that easy.

I am expecting to find that the Solomon Islands have requirements like most countries do where only so many items can be collected in a day. X number of anemones, X number of soft corals and X number of gorgonians. What I am most hopeful is that they say I can collect X number of stony corals including SPS.

I also expect to find there are areas that are open to the public for collecting or whatever and then there are private use areas that are protected from trespass because they are areas used for commercial collection.

I really expect to get more flack from the various groups collecting corals for a living than from the government.

Seems like most of the people who say this is difficult or impossible are involved in the industry in one form or another. Probably just relating the real difficulties involved in doing this on a commercial scale. (thousands of dollars in permits and strict Customs regulations.)

Thankfully, the rules for commercial and personal collection and import into the country are turning out to be very different. My guess is the difficulty is more related to the government wanting its fair chunk of cash for whatever is being imported by a business than any concern about CITES listings.

[michaelaz]

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING LIVING, its not responsable and it removes part of the ecosystem.

Take only memorys and leave only bubbles so others may enjoy the sights you have.

BTW I am a AOW diver.

[fishome25]

do you have an empty fish tank?

[airinhere]

Michaelaz.
While I fully understand your sentiment, I just have to be honest and admit that I do not feel the same way.

Your point is an earnest one.

I simply disagree.

Without knowing the details of my plans, any conclusion is premature.

For this threads topic, I am focusing on what seems to be a very misunderstood concept.

I have never found any other source of information I could reference for veracity about what steps are involved in bringing marine organisms home from outside the USA.

I follow not only the letter of the law, but also try to honor the intent of a law.

And I do not bow down to peer pressure or to political correctnes.

And I still am waiting to hear from the Solomon Is.

[michaelaz]

I respect your reply and honesty, IMHO its not about being politically correct, its about preserving the ocean and the reef for others to enjoy. If everyone grabs a piece of coral or fish from their favorite dive site it wont be long long before theres nothing left to enjoy,look at black coral as a prime example.

[NoRemorse]

There are a lot of things that would be ruined if EVERYONE did it, but the fact is, only a select few will, and the net impact is more than likely VERY minimal.

To the OP: Very interesting to read what you are discovering, I have always thought about what it would take to do this, if only just to entertain the idea.

I look forward to your reply from Soloman Is!

[pagojoe]

In the Pacific, there are still quite a few places that don't have any collecting regulations. You can disregard all the business about getting CITES permits, because a) you almost certainly won't be collecting anything on the list, and b) even if you did, it would be almost impossible to go through the paperwork maze to import it. Everyone knows what a Tridacna is, so don't bother trying to bring one back. Otherwise, if a country has export regulations, the FWS department manager's son-in-law or nephew, who'll you be dealing with, probably doesn't know the regulations. If you offer him money for a permit, he will take it, and invent a permit for you. He will also invent regulations for you, if you ask. I try to find out whether regulations exist before I go, print them out and take them with me, and then show the nephew what the rules are if he or anyone asks. If you don't know, you will surely have some fabricated rules or laws thrown at you, since you will look like a possible source of income. Good luck!

The most common answer you'll receive when writing to a Pacific island government asking about permits or collecting laws is "We don't currently regulate that, what do you recommend we do?" Don't try to collect in Australia or New Zealand, and you should be fine.


Don

[airinhere]

I am thinking that pagojoe is probably right. I still havent gotten a reply from the Solomon Is. Maybe I will try writing them again.

I think its time I began looking for more information regarding the CITES listings, (specific organisms) and the paperwork to collect and transport CITES protected organisms.

Besides, I might still change my mind about my final destination.

And, according to the last Coral magazine, there are many places where people can collect right off the GBR in Aurstralia. Some areas are protected, but many places simply put limits on collection much you take.
like sportfishing here in the USA.

On a seperate note.

I am also looking at what is required to collect legally off the Ca. coast and have found that there is a big grey area regarding private collectors. There are commercial collection permits for mareine ornamentals (running about $360) that would allow you to take anything you wanted, but there is no equivalent permit for non-commercial collection. Still trying to get clarification about that one.

[talon4x4]

Here is some info I got when inquiring about bringing things back from Canada. I live abour 1.5hrs from Toronto so I thought maybe I'd take a drive up and check out the LFS' over there and if I found something bring it home. Not sure how much of this applies to countries other than Canada, but it may help.


US IMPORT/EXPORT INFO
For Americans Exporting from the U.S.A. (Canadians should be familiar with these steps too)
All animals leaving or entering the USA must be inspected by US fish & wildlife This is generally done at what is known as a designated port . If you are not located at a designated port you must contact your local branch of USF&W and arrange an inspection. At this point a document called a 3-177 will be completed. It is a declaration of import/export of wildlife. This must be done with all animals regardless of whether they are listed under the Washington Convention (CITES).
It is also possible and fairly common to have animals shipped first to a designated port for inspection and clearance, before heading on to the consignee. This is done when the shipper or recipient in the US is not near a designated port. It can however, sometimes get complicated and expensive because a broker can be required to transfer the shipment and arrange for fish&wildlife inspection. This is especially true if different air carriers are involved since Airlines are not obliged to move your cargo, especially into the hands of a competitive Airline. So if you need to hire a broker this can mean that your animals are being put into the hands of a middle man who might very well hate herps(or love them and steal your shipment). It's a bit scary to have someone opening your animals in the middle of their journey to your customer.

If the animals are CITES listed and are Appendix 2 you need to apply To the US department of the interior/F&W for a CITES export permit. This must then be stamped by a wildlife agent at the time of the inspection otherwise the permit is not valid...
You will also now need (since I think bout 97) a US fish and wildlife IMPORT EXPORT license... you need to apply for it. It is $100.00us and is good for only one year. If you are not getting your inspection at a Designated port, but are using a border port you may also be required to apply for what's called an "Exception to Designated Port"permit. It's now also $100US bucks and is good for 2 years.

For Canadians taking animals into or out of the USA
If you are taking animals across the border in a car, you need to apply for and obtain this US fish and wildlife IMPORT EXPORT license... and yes also the exception from designated port permit if you have more than just a few animals.

You must phone US F&W in advance and arrange for an inspection 48 hrs before you cross. An agent will be dispatched to the crossing of your choice(See the list of Border Ports) . You will be charged for the inspection. $55US standard, more if its CITES or outside of business hours. A 3-177 declaration will need to be completed at the time of the inspection. I recommend pre ordering this form from USF&W and filling them out ahead of time. It makes the wildlife agents happy and you are more likely to know the Scientific names, which must be shown on the declaration. It's also helpful to take a book with pictures to help verify the species.

If you are taking a lot of stuff into the US for personal delivery or to fly out of an American airport it may be considered a commercial shipment and this will also require a Customs Broker...I use PBB. (Peace Bridge Brokers)

Also, if you are taking CITES listed animals out of Canada you must first apply for and obtain a Canadian CITES Export permit. You will be required to prove legal origin to be granted this permit. Before crossing the border, you must first stop on the Canadian side and get Customs to validate it, otherwise it is not a legal CITES permit.

A complete list, with prices, of US Fish & Wildlife forms including CITES applications, licenses etc, can be found...http://www.fws.gov/forms/display.cfm?number1=200

http://www.cites.ec.gc.ca/listedecontrole/index.cfm?lang=e&fuseaction=scList.swFilterResult

[airinhere]

Talos, you rock. This is the sort of useful info I am looking for.

Saying its 'hard' is irrelavant.

If I am arranging a trip around the planet, I think I can handle filling out some paperwork and getting permits needed to bring some corals home with me.

Looks like I have some more reading to do Thursday.

[Lordhelmet]

i know of a person who lives not to far from me who has collected items from the south pacific for her tank.

but they are also VERY wealthy, so I'm sure that helped some.

[cutnup]

keep us up to date with what you are hearing. i myself have looked around to find this sort of stuff out.

[airinhere]

I resent my inquiry to the Solomon Islands. This is what I wrote.

Chief Communications Officer
George Herming
gherming@pmc.gov.sb

Hello, my name is Aaron Hunt and I am interested in visiting your Islands for a
dive vacation. During my many dives, I would like to gather corals and other
organisms that I could bring home and keep alive in my marine aquariums.

This is solely for personal use and this collection is not of a commercial
nature in any way.

Is this something you will allow and if so, are there any rules I need to be
aware of so that I do not collect anything that would potentially be
problematic?

I have already spoken to the American government agencies regarding bringing
these sorts of organisms into the USA, and I will need to have legally collected
them in your country and then declare them to customs when I arrive back in
America.

Are there any groups you might reccomend to assist me during my visit or areas I
might focus my interest in?

I thank you for your assistance and look forward to your reply.

[Theexp]

Right now i'm in IslaMorada, Florida, and was wondering if anyone knew any places where it was legal to collect inverts, and such. I have a permit, and have checked the laws, (No marine sanctuarys). Outside of my house I've collected some snails, (could be whelks gotta check) and some blue legged hermits.
Oh yeah, I'm not dive certified, but would love to take some stuff home. I am a strong swimmer with a good lung capacity (~2 minutes under while swimming around) Any place would be great.
Thanks a lot

[airinhere]

Well for some reason the e-mails are being returned undeliverable. DNS isnt recieving them. I think there is a technical problem, so the e-mail I posted isnt working right now. I might have to try calling them or just using snail mail.

[cutnup]

the exp if you are still there check this out > http://myfwc.com/marine/recreational/recharvestmls.htm

[cutnup]

hey airinhere,
question about those hydor koralias...how do you like em and what number and how many would you put on a 46 gal bowfront?

[airinhere]

Not to drift away from the topic, but I love the Hydors.

For a 46 bow I think you would be best with either a pair of #2 or maybe a #2 and a #3.

That would put you at 26X or 31X flow in your tank not counting your return pump.

I have 26X in my 90 with another 6X from my return pump.

That is just about as much flow as my LPS and softies can take, although I could easily add another pair of #4 if I were to go with all SPS and barebottom.

And thanks for the link to the Fl regs. Although I now need to find the Solomon Islands regs. Anyone have a link?

[aceheart1976]

cutnup, is there a site that lists all the diferent state regulations like that one?

[airinhere]

You should just have to look up your state DFG office. There should be some permit or license for marine ornamentals. Here in Ca, the only one available is for commercial uses, and I am getting the common reply that you can collect what you like as long as you are not collecting in a controlled area.

I have recieved the "safe" answer that I should consider obtaining a marine ornamental licence (commercial). This would allow me and up to 5 people (I think the number is right), to collect. But that is around $300 and I dont believe it is appropriate for personal collection.

And I am still trying to reach the Solomon Islands. Just been preocupied recently.

[talon4x4]

Maybe this page can help you reach someone at the Solomon Islands.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1021.html

Or maybe these.

http://www.pmc.gov.sb/?q=node/490
http://www.paclii.org/

[aceheart1976]

cant seem to find anything like that for south carolina :( my luck isnt too good lol

[cutnup]

what would you collect in no.carolina? air, no complaints in their size?

[mcox33]

nice snails and other little critters at the NC beaches.

[airinhere]

Talon, the second link is the one I have been going to in my attempts to contact the Solomon Islands Government. So far all mail has been returned with an obscure DNS error with it. I think their website has been experiencing technical difficulties. The third link has lots of legal stuff on it, but I am going to have to wade through alot of stuff. I am hoping to reach someone there, it will make the process much easier.

cutnup, there are all sorts of things that make it into northern waters during the summer. New York gets seahorses and lionfish (among other things) pretty often. Odds are that there arent any laws regarding these organisms since they arent native and are jsut seasonally available. Plus they will die when the water cools down durning the winter.

And about the size of the Hydors, I think they look neat for one, and are smaller than a Seio for another. I admit the #1's in my 55 gal tank are pretty useless, but the #4 and #3 models I have are awesome. My only problem with them is that they really create too much flow for my LPS and ricordea, so I have to carefully aim them so I dont blow stuff around in my tanks. I would recommend them to anyone.

[darkmuncan]

Make sure you check with the Airline you will be travelling on too.

Salt Water (even in closed containers) is not allowed on most aircraft as its extrememly corrosive.

[airinhere]

I know Southwest allows it on their flights, their the one used by most of the LA shippers to distribute corals and fish all around the states. But I also need to find out the amount of boxes I could bring home with me on a Quantas air flight. (I figure thats who I will likely be flying with.)

[cutnup]

any updates?

[aceheart1976]

cutnip, in south carolina, about 2-3 miles off shore there is some nice shipwrecks and reefs that i go to a few times a year, to fish and scubadive. some pretty nice stuff there last time i was there

[airinhere]

Nothing yet, I have recently taken a job working at a local dive shop, so I havent had the inclination to do much follow up. On a positive note, now I am preparing to start diving on a regular basis since I get free rentals of scuba gear.

Of course the guy getting attacked by a shark at Monterey is throwing a wrench in my plans to go diving there this weekend. Thats where I intended to go diving.

One guy gets eaten and suddenly "scuba diving is dangerous".

He was surfing
.
The shark was only about twenty feet long.

Hope hes okay.

Scary.

[aceheart1976]

the reason the shark attacked him, from what i have read, watched, and personal exp over the years, is because surfers look like big seals from the underside and that is their "treat" or main meals usually.
i am a scuba diver and have swimmed with tons of very large sharks with only a bull shark in the bahamas getting frisky enough to "try" to attack. he was mainly curious as to what we was and what we were doing.
some of the sharks we have dove with have been 25 foot+ hammerheads, blacktips,white tips, tiger sharks, and very very large nurse sharks
those "documentaries" on discovery channel doesnt show you what they have to do to get the sharks into a mad feeding frenzy, and they know people dont want to sit there for an hour or 2 watching sharks the way the are 99% of the time in the wild. the are very docile gentle giants for the most part

[airinhere]

You know that, I know that, my family is not so certain. I live very close to my folks house and see them often, they were not too sure they wanted me going swimming with a killer shark.

Not that it mattered, I ended up working and cleaniong my garage this weekend.

I always tell people I am not afrraid of any sharks, fish or any large predators in the water. What really concerns me is the stinging stuff. Fire coral, stonefish, jellyfish. Poison can mess you up fast and you usually never see it coming.

At least with a big predator, you can try to fight it off.

Besides, very little in the ocean has developed the taste for humans as food. So if you get bitten; either you are violating their territory, personal space or they are just investigating what you are.

Anything thats big enough to eat people without discrimination, your 'pooched' anyways.

[MaryK117]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10662480#post10662480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aceheart1976
cutnip, in south carolina, about 2-3 miles off shore there is some nice shipwrecks and reefs that i go to a few times a year, to fish and scubadive. some pretty nice stuff there last time i was there

Where in SC are you diving? We live in SC, but usually travel to FL as the water is warmer and the reefs are not so far out. I'd like to try collecting a little closer to home. Thanks for any info. MK

[aceheart1976]

i usually go to beaufort/huntington island. havnt been in about 3 years though :( what part of sc you in?

[Tahlequah]

In Hawaii, you can get a permit that will allow you to collect aquarium specimens. The permit is free, they do it to make room for fish in their marine sanctuaries to have a place to move to when things get overpopulated in the sanctuary.

[roblack]

From what I understand you cannot ever take any stony corals from FL reefs, and need permits to take softies. There is a dive company in the Keys that allows you to collect reef fish, they have the permits, but I dont know about rics and what not. I will see if I can find their info.

[aceheart1976]

with what i have read, in Fl all you need is a residence fishing license to take fish/corals. if you find out anything different please let us know something

[roblack]

It is illegal in FL to take any corals or liverock without a proper permit, and from what I understand they are not issuing new permits. Some people have old permits that are still legal. The only exception I know of is those who are granted permits for educational and research purposes. Personally, I am glad the state strictly regulates such practices, our reefs here need some time to recover. However, if conditions do not improve, I would support the collection of local corals to preserve them in private aquaria and hopefully reintroduce them when the environment could sustain them. I talked with someone who works with the state of Florida's aquaculture program about getting permits to collect coral, grow it out, and replant them in new/other areas where they are depleted or gone. I was told that I was not the first to come up with this idea, but it would be unlikely that anyone other than those from a research or educational institute would be granted such.

[snookhunter]

You don't need any permits to collect softies, zoos and inverts and some fish /plants, you just need a florida fishing license. Check out the FWC website and the restrictions and daily bag limits are all listed there for you.

[aceheart1976]

thats what i thought also snook, thank you for confirming this, do you know if there is a site like that for south carolina?

[billsreef]

Most states have some sort of department in charge of such things, usually something along the lines of a department of enviroment, conservation, natural resources or fish and wildlife or some such. Those are the folks you usually need to check with.

[aceheart1976]

i have looked for sometime now trying to find a website like that one for here lol

[snookhunter]

Ace,

I am not sure about SC, but just contact the dept. wildlife for SC and they can give you the info.

[icy1155]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10884634#post10884634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by roblack
It is illegal in FL to take any corals or liverock without a proper permit, and from what I understand they are not issuing new permits. Some people have old permits that are still legal. The only exception I know of is those who are granted permits for educational and research purposes. Personally, I am glad the state strictly regulates such practices, our reefs here need some time to recover. However, if conditions do not improve, I would support the collection of local corals to preserve them in private aquaria and hopefully reintroduce them when the environment could sustain them. I talked with someone who works with the state of Florida's aquaculture program about getting permits to collect coral, grow it out, and replant them in new/other areas where they are depleted or gone. I was told that I was not the first to come up with this idea, but it would be unlikely that anyone other than those from a research or educational institute would be granted such.


The problem with the idea and the reason that they wont even consider it is that once it enters the aquarium setting there is no guarentee that it wont be in contact with something from the pacific... wether it was fish, corals, sand, rock, algae... anything. With that contact comes the chance of introducing something into the wild that could become an invasive species. That in itself could potentially cause more harm than any amount of collecting if the wrong thing was accidently introduced. This is why only state and educational facilities can get permits to collect, because they are stricly limited on what comes into contact with the corals, where as for private entities there is no way to guarentee.