Starting over?

[Mr31415]

How many of you who now have very successful reef aquariums scratched what you originally had and started all over - not necessarily throwing away what you had, but at the very least tore down the whole tank, maybe changed from Berlin to Jaubert or some other fundamental change, re-aquascaped the tank, and thus started all over?

I feel like my tank is not where I want it to be. I have bryopsis which I cannot get rid of and it is just spreading and spreading. I have pink hair algae than not even my mexican turbos can handle. My aquascaping sucks (even after the third try), and my live stock seem to die from mysterious causes (well, in the past year I have lost about 8 fish, 5 coral and 10 inverts in that tank).

I have researched so much information is pouring out of my ears - yet I cannot seem to find that combination of things that work so perfectly for some people on here (think TOTM authors).

So... Is starting over getting another chance? I guess you need to understand what you did wrong and whether certain changes would fix the problems...

If there are some highly experienced people out there willing to help me, I'd be glad to provide detailed information on what I lost and why I am feeling my tank is not thriving - even though it is not a disaster either.

[msn711]

I'll take a stab at helping you. What exactly is the problem? How long has the tank beet set up? What readings are you getting from your test kits?

In the mean time, if by starting over you mean giving up your current live stock, and starting with fresh water and just the rock you have now, I think it can be a rather invigorating fresh start. My first reef tank was a complete disaster. I started with tap water despite what everyone said, and in the end, I couldn't keep anything but cyano. I've since learned that and many other important lessons. If you really want a fresh start, here's what I would do (at least until you tell me more about your tank):

1. Sell any livestock you currently have with the exception of snails/hermits that you may want in your next tank.
2. Take the rock out of the tank, scrub it to get off as much algae as possible, and put in a rubbermaid container with a skimmer and some powerheads and cover. Youc an put any snails or hermits you kept in there as well.
3. Check on the rocks perhaps once a week. See if they need scrubbing again, clean out the skimmer, do a water change.

[The object here isn't so much to cook the rocks the way BB folks do it, but to kill of the algae.]

While this is going on, decide what livestock you would like to keep. Start planning your re-designed tank around the live stock. It's so backwards when people start planning out tons of equipment when no clue what they actually want to keep alive in their tank. Then find a tank(s) you really like that are keeping the types of corals/fish/whatever you want to keep. Try to figure out what makes those tanks successful, and use them as your blue print. For example, if you're into soft corals, I would copy something like muchreef's TOTM from 2003 I think. If your into sps corals, there's plenty of TOTM's to look at too. Or maybe you want a FOWLR. Decide the livestock, and plan from there while the algae on your rocks is dying off.

While the algae is dying off is the time to formulate a game plan that you can stick with once the tank is up and running again. It's also a chance to save up for the equipment you decide you need instead of trying to replace poor equipment choices down the road.

When the algae has died off of the rocks, and you're ready to re-start, put them into the tank with fresh salt water (make sure you use RODI), and settle on an aquascape. [If that's a big part of your current problem, you might want to mix in some new LR to give you some new options.] Cyle the tank and start following your game plan!

I hope this helps.

[am3gross]

ok so here is my own look on things. i think of reef keeping a learning experiance. you have done something wrong. and now to fix it you have to figure it out. so you have a bad algae problem. lets fix that and learn what you did wrong. tearing the tank down and starting over may not fix your problem. i say what you should do is find the problems that you have..... fix the problems that you have. and learn the reasons why you had the problems to prevent this from happening again in the future. remember that this hobby is supposed to be fun. i think that part of the fun is fixing the problems that we may encounter. think about it this way.... if this was an easy hobby everyone would have a saltwater tank, and since it is a bit demanding there are lots of people not wanting to put forth the effort making it more impressive when you walk in and you see that big in wall tank! these are just not my thoughts and not tring to flame you or anyone else.... just do what you think is right and what makes you happy!

[Mr31415]

For a full reference: Tank build log (http://reef.gamma.za.net/home/145g_reef_tank/)

Thanks for the opinions. Firstly msn711, as you can see in the log, the tank is the 145g reef tank which has been running since about 1 June 2006. Water parameters as tested 3 days ago: 26C, 8.10 - 8.20 pH, 1.0255, P = 0.008mg/L, NH3 = 0, NO2 = 0, NO3 = 0, Ca = 380mg/L, Mg = 1560mg/L.

My problem is as I stated it in the first post: "I feel like my tank is not where I want it to be. I have bryopsis which I cannot get rid of and it is just spreading and spreading. I have pink hair algae than not even my mexican turbos can handle. My aquascaping sucks (even after the third try), and my live stock seem to die from mysterious causes (well, in the past year I have lost about 8 fish, 5 coral and 10 inverts in that tank)."

I have posted a thread (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1166189) on the live stock issue.

I'd like to get rid of the algae (I know how they got in my tank - the bryopsis was obviously already on the LR I purchased from the LFS, and the pink hair alga I introduced by mistake to my sump as nutrient export algae without knowing better). I'd like to fix the aquascaping so that I actually have more room to place my corals. I'd like to stop my live stock from dying.

I have no microalgae issues currently. Even though the coralline algae is growing like weed on my glass, it does not seem to be growing healthily on my LR.

There is just so much small things.... Please go through my tank log and let me know what you think.

Here is the tank currently:

http://www.gamma.za.net/images/_J8T0992_large.jpg

[msn711]

Couple of questions from reading your tank page:
1. What is your water source? I didn't see anything about RO/DI water.
2. Do your T5 lights have individual reactors? I'm not expert on T5 lighting, but that could be an issue. If so, read some of the T5 threads here on RC.

For the bryopsis, search the sps forums. Personally, I've never had to deal with it.

The pink/red cotton algae, I have encountered. I have no idea where mine came from though. The only thing I could do was pull it out by hand or take out the rocks and scrub. I would think that if you're runnign some phosphate remover in that phosban reactor, it should stop coming back eventually. But ultimately, to get rid of mine, I scrubbed the rocks and kept them in the dark for a while.

As for your aquascaping, the biggest issue seems to be that giant leather coral. It takes up a ton of space. Perhaps you could dedicate it to one side of the tank rather that having it more to the center. Other than that, the rocks you usued look rather solid, and not porous like you typically see. I don't see any caves or overhangs that the fish can swim through. It's just a wall of rocks. You may actually need to just get rid of some of it; it maybe too much.

Other than that, while you do have a lot of corals, not really stands out as bright and colorful. The most noticeable is the leather coral and it's brown. You should add corals that are going to stand out from the crowd. I'm thinking colorful shrooms, zoos, ricordeas, and lps corals. I like sps corals too, but sometimes it just takes time for them to become colorful and beautiful. The other corals I listed aren't nearly as likely to turn colors or become brown on you.

I'll go take a look at your livestock thread.

[msn711]

I also didn't see anything about water changes. If you're having algae issues, water changes are NOT optional. You have to do them on a regular basis. I would suggest once per week, sucking out as much of the algae as you can in the process.

[msn711]

As for as the chromis go, despite what some were trying to tell you on that thread, if you do a search here, you will see that many have tried to keep schools of chromis, and they eventually dwindle down to one for reasons unknown.

[Mr31415]

I always use RO water - sometimes DI too but I do not always have resin. TDS usually is < 3. Four of the T5's do have individual reflectors, the other four are mounted in a single quad fitting with one reflector for all four.

The giant coral is actually a Colt coral. LR is Kenyan LR - we only have that or Fiji down here in SA. Caves - there are some caves but they are hidden behind the coral. It looks like a wall but actually very few pieces touch each other - there are lots and lots of big spaces between them (again not visible in the picture) - but big enough for my CBS, urchins, cleaner shrimp etc. to hide out. But I agree the problem is that visibly it resembles a wall - I hate that.

Thanks for the advise so far.

[Mr31415]

Water changes are done 20% once every two months. PS: The algae I am struggling with are only the bryopsis and pink hair algae - I have no other algae issues. And neither of those I can suck up - that is the whole problem. You have to pull them off the LR, and I cannot pull of all of it - usually about 1cm is left.

Regarding more frequent water changes - I'd do it if I were convinced it is necessary. See, in my country salt is extremely expensive. So if it is not absolutely necessary to do it that frequent, I'd rather not. The reason why I say I cannot see how water changes would help is because for the past 10 months I have:

1) A huge amount of chaeto growing in my sump on reverse photo period
2) PhosBan reactor
3) GAC reactor
4) Use RO water
5) Never tested any PO4 or NO2 or NO3 (I know my test kits work as they test fine in my fish only tank)
6) A good skimmer (Deltec AP600)

So if all the water parameters are in check and I have adequate nutrient export mechanisms, I cannot see what more frequent water changes would accomplish.
If I missed something please tell me!

[msn711]

You're having algae issues: bryopsis and that pink cotton algae. Therefore, something is in your water fueling it's growth. If there is algae, you have phosphates; most test kits just aren't sophisticated enough to pick it up, or the algae is using it before the test kit can register it. Either way, if you have algae, your nutrient export mechanisms cannot possibly be adequate enough. Otherwise, you wouldn't be having this problem. That's just a matter of simple logic.

If you have algae, you need to increase nutrient export. The common ways of doing this: cut down on lighting, increase water changes, take a powerhead and blow detritus off of the liverocks to get it out with water changes, perhaps you can even increase the amount of phosban in your reactor or increase how often it's being changed. You might even try the remote deep sand bed being talked about in the advanced section of this forum. Personally, I've never noticed any change in nitrates with chaeto, but some people swear by it. Adding the DI to your RO water will help get rid of that last little bit of TDS, which might very well be phosphates and/or nitrates or something else fueling the algae.

At the very least, look at it this way: will it hurt to try any of these methods that have worked for others to reduce algae??? What has worked for me is pulling out as much as possible, scrubbing the rocks outside of the tank if you can, and water changes. If you can afford to put together a 145g reef tank and a 480g predator tank, plus a nano, and a QT (looking at your signature), you can afford to buy the salt to do the water changes. If you don't want to do that, cut down on the lighting, slowly increase the amount of phosban you're using, and try to use RODI water more consistently. But you first have to accept the fact that something in your system is inadequate.

[Mr31415]

Ok, makes sense. But how would I know (apart maybe from the fact that algae growth is stunted) that my P and NO3 levels are really down? I use the D-Deltec/Merck High Sensitivity Phosphate test kit and it tested 0.008 or lower, and I used Tropic Marine's NO3 test kit, which did not even register any colour. I know these test kits are working fine as I have compared them to several other brands and they all yield similar results...

One thing that comes to mind though - I have never siphoned out the detritus that accumulates in my sump - would this be a problem?

[Mr31415]

Another thing - I am slightly confused. Are you saying that in a reef tank that has adequate nutrient export mechanisms no algae whatsoever will grow? Because if that is true then using macro algae in a refugium cannot work as it will die due to lack of nutrients???

[msn711]

I don't think we can ever get to the point where there's actually NO algae whatsoever. But I think we can get to the point where it's only microalgae being taken care of by the clean up crew. You've got what I would call nuisance algae. I think the best judge of phosphate levels are the lack of that nuisance algae. And some people with SPS dominant tanks have found that the macro algae in their fuges stops growing eventually b/c of lack of nutrients.